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flowomo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 12:07 AM
Original message
A different approach to "same-sex marriage"....
This idea may have been raised before, but I haven't seen it:

www.cumberlink.com/articles/2004/03/13/editorial/rich_lewis/lewis01.txt
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. My husband and I have agreed with the idea for a long time.
didn't read the whole article but ... the idea is that civil unions/domestic partnerships will apply to all governmental-related matters.....'marriage' would be a private religious ceremony. This is apparently how it goes in France. Makes sense.
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flowomo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Can you suggest....
A link or reading on that point about France?
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polar Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
2. That's funny
Many traditional marriages are also "same-sex" because it's been the same since they got married hehe ;)
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Hi polar!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. LOL!
Thanks for the laugh, Polar. :D
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
6. I agree with this solution as well
but it would be a tought slog to implement here changing our laws because marriage is already encoded.

Which is why we must now legalize same-sex marriage.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Actually, it would be incredibly easy, thanks to the framework.
You drop the ceremony requirement for marriage and call it a civil union, and then through statute, or case-law determine that all "marriage" law applies forward to civil-unions.

It's actually very simple.
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Well, I hope that comes to pass
thanks AP.
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Ms. Toad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. A simple way to created 100% employment for lawyers worldwide...
The concept is simple. If we were starting a brand new world with a clean slate it would probably be a fantastic solution. The reality of superimposing this new legal entity on a longstanding worldwide reciprocal recognition of marriage is considerably more complicated. What do you do with:

People already married - do they need to get an additional civil union?

States that don't adopt this scheme (marriage is a state by state proposition)? Is a civil union in a state adopting this scheme entitled to recognition in a state that only sanctions marriage? Does the relationship change its name in the second state, becoming a marriage? What about step-children and in-laws? Does the existence of the legal relationship depend on the residency of the couple? the residency of the relative? the relationship entity one or the other state recognizes?

What happens if the Federal government won't recognize anything but marriage (or only civil unions between mixed gender partners)? What about federal recognition of step/in-law relationships?

What if other countries won't recognize civil unions, or won't recognize marriages, particularly if some states still have marriages and others have adopted civil unions?

Would the US recognize foreign marriages as valid for immigration or other purposes, since they are not civil unions? What about individual state recognition of foreign marriages for purposes of rights/benefits granted only to those party to a state sanctioned civil union?

The current scheme, in virtually all states, recognizes marriage (as a civil concept) based on either civil creation (e.g., judge) or religious creation (marriage in the practice of the sponsoring religious entity, to the extent that the couple would have been eligible for a civilly created marriage.) Every marriage, to the extent recognized by any state, is generally recognized by every state and virtually every country.

Marriage, as recognized by the state, already encompasses marriages that various denominations would find offensive (for example, the second marriage for a Catholic whose first marriage has not been annulled.) There are also religious marriages not recognized by the state (e.g., Quaker interracial marriages decades ago before state recognition was granted).

State recognized marriage always has, and probably always will, encompassed both more and fewer than all of the participants that a religious entity might choose to marry. There is no reason that just because the overlap between civil and religious marriages will be slightly different that the name of the state entity should be changed. In addition, renaming the overriding state entity (which includes both religious marriages and secular unions) would create a legal mess that would take decades to straighten out. The interpretation of civil union, including the questions I raised above and a host of others, would have to work their way through the courts of each individual state, our federal government, and every nation.

(These matters would, of course be argued by attorneys - hence the 100% employment for lawyers worldwide, and their fees paid for by the couples involved.)

If the name is left alone, the only question that will need to be determined on a state by state/country by country basis is whether there is a sufficient state public policy reason to support the various DOMA laws. If not, they will fall the way similar racist marriage laws fell in the past, and same gender marriages will be entitled to the same recognition as mixed gender - and we won't have to worry about individually creating for civil unions each of the the over 1000 rights/responsibilities that arise when a state recognizes a marriage.
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kayell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Excellent description of the problems this "solution" would create
Thank you for pointing out all the problems that would be created in trying desperately to preserve the word "marriage". A "simple" solution often is so only in the mind of it's creator.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
7. Lewis must read DU. The first time I heard this argument was hear at DU
when I made it about a year and a half ago, and again, the second time, about 6 weeks ago.

I really hope it catches fire.

The first victory for same-sex AND opposite sex couples will not be when the government recognizes gay marriages, but when opposite and same-sex couples can get civil unions, and when churches marry same-sex couples.

The second vicotry will be when we get rid of the "ceremony' requirement for marriage COMPLETELY, and when marriage is what you do in church, and civil union is what you do to sign up for the rights the government confers on everyone.
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flowomo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Lewis does read DU....
because it's me. SOrry for the vanity post, but I wanted some feedback on this idea. I figured it must have come up before, but I had never seen, nor was my presentation necessarily the most elegant, but I wanted to put the idea on the table in our small, conservative town to see what the reaction might be.
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Welcome to DU!
Rich Lewis. :hi:

We're whacky, but we also make a lot of sense. :D I hope you get a positive response to your editorial.

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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
10. I support that
but the idea has been raised quite a few times without many people getting on board. write your senator or something. I can't because my Senator is pRick Santorum.
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flowomo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Ha! He's my senator too....
thanks to that idiot Ron Klink
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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. yeah maybe Joe Hoeffel will do something about it
after he beats Arlen Specter this year.
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
11. Here's my idea
Let gay people get married.
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kayell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. HeyHey, now there's a sensible idea!
Sheesh, all this fancy maneuvering just to avoid allowing gays to get married like anyone else. :eyes:
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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. preaching to the choir
DUers may support gay marriage but too many Americans don't.
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kayell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Fortunately we have a constititution designed to protect the rights
of all, not just the majority. If majority opinion always ruled, there would still be misceganation laws on the books, women would never have achieved the vote, and blacks would still educated in seperate and unequal schools.
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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Hear, hear.
Just let them get **married** for crying out loud. Let's not make it more complicated than it needs to be. The really hardcore fundies will never go for any kind of compromise anyway.

Let 'em get married and be miserable like the rest of us! HAR!!!!
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