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Do you think this man is lying? Former Guantanamo 'guest'.

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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 01:09 PM
Original message
Do you think this man is lying? Former Guantanamo 'guest'.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=14042696&method=full&siteid=50143

Jamal al-Harith, 37, resident of Manchester, England.

Has his story been challenged?

If yes, can someone provide a lead, please?

Does his story check out with the Red Cross or UN or anyone else who has visited?

I'm having big problems and many tears.

Leaders in history who have been known to issue orders such as these have been condemned. This is not what our country is supposed to be about. This went from a war against Afghanistan to a travesty of human relations and disregard for man. Can anyone tell me how much better these men and boys have been treated compared to the men, women, and children persecuted under Hitler? Or any other group who has been tortured?
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kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. I don't he is lying...
quite the contrary.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. Through his teeth
What would be the point. Regardless of *, I do not believe that this could be done without consderable evidence coming out. And, much as I despise out government, I would trust, if that's they word, them long before I would trust a terrorist criminal with a grudge.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Uh...what "terrorist criminal"? Isn't that why he was released,...
...because he was innocent?

How much do you trust Junior? He's a "terrorist criminal with a grudge", isn't he?
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. and his crime would be what, exactly?
Edited on Sun Mar-14-04 01:53 PM by thebigidea
you try not having a grudge after being kidnapped and tortured for two years.

As far as this guy's story goes - man, does it ever ring true. You don't make up stuff like:

"I woke up last night when I heard the keys of someone returning to their hotel room. I woke up in a fright and thought one of the guards was coming to put on my chains.

"I then realised that the light in the room was on. When locked up in our cages, the lights were on as well, and I thought to myself: 'You can sleep in the dark now' - and I switched it off."


Poor bastard, he'll be fucked up for life.
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jus_the_facts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. not much unlike so many who've been in jails and prisons all over the US
Edited on Sun Mar-14-04 02:24 PM by jus_the_facts
....I'll repost what I posted in LBN here....

.....I know this goes on in jails and prisons right here in Louisiana...from people who've been locked up....not bein' allowed proper council...bein' kept for almost a YEAR without bein' sentenced...whatchin' people get harrassed...beaten...raped...while ght guards laugh and let it take place....this is a reality for thousands of people encarerated right here in the shitty ol'USA...the ignorant who talk about how jails are hotels and such haven't ever seen what I've seen...the deplorable roach and rat infested HELLHOLES where the bugs are eatin' your half rotten meal before it ever gets to your cell...it's REAL and it's happening RIGHT now to many many Americans...for such damning crimes as failure to pay child support...a dime bag of weed...or gettin' caught stealin' a pack of cigarettes......lest we forget Susan McDugal and what happend to HER as well!! :evilfrown:

on edit....also some of these places are makin' a PROFIT...lot's of privatized prisons down here too....off MINORS...Paul Wellstone came down here to make a big stink about one of these VERY prisons once too!

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jus_the_facts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. as of today in fact.....a good friend of mine is takin' her dead beat..
....hubby to get a THIRD surgery...because while he was in a parish jail for non payment he got his FACE bashed IN...broke the bones inaround his eye orbit and his cheekbone and crushed his nose in.....while there wasn't a GUARD on duty on his cell block...just a DAY from gettin' let out! When he should have been offered a JOB to pay his child support instead of ever bein' locked up.....but the reality is what it is isn't it.
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ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. Your 'beliefs' notwithstanding, lets look at what the ICRC has to say.....
....in as much as the ICRC NEVER releases the findings of their visits to prison facilities no matter how horrible the conditions they encounter.
In the case of Gitmo they, for the first time ever, felt they had to issue a public condemnation of the way the US was holding prisoners, albeit in the nicest possible of terms. :evilfrown:

http://www.redcross.org/news/in/intllaw/020118detainees.html

ICRC Visits Afghan Detainees in Cuba


January 18, 2002 - Fulfilling its traditional role in times of conflict, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) is in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, ensuring that U.S. detainees from Afghanistan receive fair treatment under International Humanitarian Law (IHL).

The Geneva-based ICRC has a unique role in upholding the principles of IHL. "It is part of the ICRC's responsibility and a legal mandate under the Geneva Conventions to provide protection and assistance to all prisoners of war and detainees held in war zones," said Lucy Brown, an American Red Cross advisor on IHL. "The ICRC is often the only one with access to these people and the humanitarian service is widely supported by governments because it protects their own captured people."

<Snip>

After surveying a prison, the ICRC's findings always remain confidential, Gordon-Bates said. If a country holding detainees were to fear that the ICRC would degrade it before the world, the organization could lose its credibility as a neutral party. "We want to ensure we have access to people in prisons around the world," Gordon-Bates said.

<More>

http://hrw.org/reports/2004/afghanistan0304/

"Enduring Freedom": Abuses by U.S. Forces in Afghanistan


Human Rights Watch Reports on U.S. Military Actions


Human Rights in Afghanistan


1. Summary

2. Background: "Operation Enduring Freedom"

3. Violations by U.S. Forces
Indiscriminate and Excessive Force Used During Arrests
Arbitrary or Mistaken Arrests and Indefinite Detention
Mistreatment in Detention
Bagram airbase
Mistreatment in other facilities
Detainees held by Afghan forces
Deaths in U.S. custody

4. International Legal Context

5. Conclusions

6. Recommendations

Appendix: U.S. Criticisms of Mistreatment and Torture Practices

Acknowledgments


March 2004 Vol. 16, No. 3(C)

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/02/24/usdom7585.htm

U.S.: Pentagon Denies Access to Guantanamo Trials

Human Rights Groups Shut Out of Military Commissions


(Washington, February 24, 2004) -- The Pentagon has refused to allow three leading human rights groups to attend and observe military commission trials of detainees at Guantanamo Bay.

In a letter sent last week to U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, Amnesty International, Human Rights First (formerly the Lawyers Committee for Human Rights) and Human Rights Watch protested their exclusion from the proceedings and urged the U.S. government to rethink its position.

Despite the Bush administration's promise that the commissions would be open to the public, the Pentagon has refused to grant any of these organizations permission to attend the proceedings. Over the last month, the Department of Defense has responded to written requests from Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, with a brief statement that it intended only to provide seating for select members of the press and for the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC).

"The Defense Department wants to control who can talk to the journalists covering the trials," said Wendy Patten, U.S. advocacy director at Human Rights Watch. "The Pentagon has imposed a gag rule on defense lawyers, who can only speak to the press with the military’s permission. Now it wants to shut out experienced trial observers who could provide the public with independent analysis."

<More>


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/10/attack/main577496.shtml

Treatment Of Detainees Denounced


GENEVA, Oct. 10, 2003 (AP) The International Committee for the Red Cross reiterated its criticism of Washington on Friday for ignoring repeated appeals to give legal rights to U.S. military detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

ICRC officials, after a visit to the military base, said many detainees were suffering "a worrying deterioration" in mental health because they are held without charges and without legal counsel.

<Snip>

International rights groups say the indefinite detentions without charge, which have led to 32 suicide attempts by 27 detainees, are inhumane.

An AP reporter in Guantanamo had arranged to meet with the ICRC at the base on Wednesday, but U.S. military officials refused to allow the interview, saying permission had not been granted by the Department of Defense.

<Snip>

The neutral, Swiss-run organization has been appealing in private to the Bush administration for due process since soon after the detention center was opened in early 2002, the spokesman noted.

In an unusual move, ICRC went public with that appeal in May its president, Jakob Kellenberger, met with top officials of the Bush administration in Washington.

<More>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3179858.stm

Red Cross blasts Guantanamo


Wednesday Oct. 8, 2003 A top Red Cross official has broken with tradition by publicly attacking conditions at the US military base on Cuba where al-Qaeda suspects are being held.

Christophe Girod - the senior Red Cross official in Washington - said it was unacceptable that the 600 detainees should be held indefinitely at Guantanamo Bay without legal safeguards.

The Red Cross is the only organisation with access to the detainees.

His criticism came as a group of American former judges, diplomats and military officers called on the US Supreme Court to examine the legality of holding the foreign nationals for almost two years, without trial, charge or access to lawyers.

<More>
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
3. To me, it has the ring of truth.
And he has much more credibility than Colin Powell.
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dand Donating Member (636 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
4. half truth half propaganda......
either way we are the modern day fascists.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
5. "No rights"???????????????????
No American has the right to say that to ANYBODY.

You know what? I KNOW it happened. How? Because we built that damn camp in Cuba instead of Kansas. We didn't want anyone to see what we were doing.

However, I am insensitive enough to get a huge giggle out of the emotional rape involved in forcing the young men to look at naked women. It's wrong, I know. Maybe it will make one of them aware of how a molested woman feels, apart from the insult to honor.
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
9. The whole point of the camp is torture.
They practically admitted as much. Hey look, we're building a prison in Cuba so we can skirt American laws *wink* *wink*. Here's a few S&M photos of us abusing them for you. Complete with chains and face masks and dog cages. *nudge* *nudge* And after you're doing jacking off, could you spend a minute on this poll about whether or not torture is justified? Thank you for your time.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
10. Reactionary justice? Could he have lied these things?
Edited on Sun Mar-14-04 02:38 PM by higher class
Some people will say they would have treated the prioners worse because of the crime of the bombings on our shores in spite of the lack of proof that these people were guilty of anything. We are so perfect and wonderful that no one can touch us and it doesn't matter that innocent people could have been imprisoned because the example is more important than justice. It doesn't matter that we are digressing from everything we preached that we are.

Did this man create these stories or were the stories of the two of the three teenage boys who seem to have been isolated from the others and who said they loved the food and their treatment, telling the truth.

Could the 37 year old have lied these things?

/Psychologically tortured to make them confess to things they hadn’t done. Psychological assaults were worse then the beatings. Body wounds would heal.

/Prostitutes brought in – touched themselves – one “:American” girl smeared menstrual blood on the face of a very religious person.. The naked women were displayed to the most religious and the youth.

/Punched, kicked, hit with baton for refusing a mystery injection.

/Shackled hands and feet together for up to 15 hours. Forced to lie in a ball for hours. Recreation consisted of being unshackled and walking on a strip of gravel five or fifteen minutes depending on the camp – X-Ray or Delta.

/Wire cages with concrete floors open to the elements.

/Extreme Reaction Force – name for the unit who did the beating. Those beaten were paraded in front of the cages.

/Limbs amputated with excessive removal.

/Ten year old food and foul water. Water was yellow in Camp X-Ray and a coca-cola color at Camp Delta. Water turned off as punishment.

"We had porridge and something they called 'like-milk', which was disgusting and 'like-tea' and a piece of fruit. The fruit had been frozen and pounded with chemicals. An apple might look red but there was waxy white stuff all over it and inside it would be black and brown."

/Asked to be treated like animals –

"They actually said that - 'You have no rights here'. After a while, we stopped asking for human rights - we wanted animal rights. In Camp X-Ray my cage was right next to a kennel housing an Alsatian dog."
"He had a wooden house with air conditioning and green grass to exercise on. I said to the guards, 'I want his rights' and they replied, 'That dog is member of the US army'.

/Purposely disallowed privacy or the ability to clean themselves before praying –

Forced to defecate in a bucket in front of others.
Not allowed to wash before prayer as religion requires.
Showers increased from one to three a week.
Guards playfully squirted their dry clothes.

/Given romance novels to read.

Our leaders, teachers, and parents have lied to us - they have taught us that we are a just nation with legal protection for all. Our religious leaders taught us that we treat humans like humans. Our leaders have condemned the handling of prisioners by other people and we have called them barbarians. How much did your parents pay in taxes to pay for our portion of the cost of the Nuremburg Trials?

WHO ARE WE?
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Monkey see Monkey Do Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
12. "The Tipton Three" story:
(these are 3 of the 5 Brits also released this week)

Part 1:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1168937,00.html

Part 2:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1169122,00.html

re Jamal al-Harith -- there are bits of his story which he recounts as hearsay (ie the menstral fluid) that I personally have trouble believing, but I accept the general thrust of what he is saying.

Although Guantanamo sucks horribly in a million ways, there doesn't seem to be that much physical torture -- rather a stretching of what could be considered legitimate psychological torture. On that, there are and have been a hundred nasty authotarian regimes, from South America to Saudi Arabia, that use physical torture -- so I don't think it is fair to say that the Guantanamo detainees have faced anywhere near the worst the world has to offer. (However the West should set an example for the world on human rights, and as such Americas current actions are shaming us all.)

Guantanamo should be used for people like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Ramzi Binalshibh & others -- not for waifs and strays and certainly not for innocent bystanders. If the US wants to capture prisoners of war then they should class them as such and grant them the rights they are deserved under international law. They shouldn't be shipping people off to Cuba on the basis of innuendo or the word of others with financial motivations (as seems to be the case with Mozam Begg who was kidnapped from Pakistan, as well as several Afghans who were released about a year ago). The US had the right idea with John Walker Lindh -- if you have evidence of war crimes, terrorism or in his case treason, use the courts. Let judges, not generals, determine guilt. (& finally on the PoW point -- it frightens me that the US argues that they can hold people for the duration of "the war on terror" as if that's an actual war.)


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jus_the_facts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
13. kick
:eyes:
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. kick
:kick: in the :eyes:
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arewethereyet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-04 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
14. this story is in a tabloid
right next to the story about Bat Boy and the other one on Elvis having tea with the queen.

Sure its true...
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