House Members criticize Venezuelan Governement

[windansea]

Date Issued 03/10/03 01:46 PM EST | Today in Congress

news release
from
BARNEY FRANK

Dear President Chavez,

We are disturbed by recent punitive actions taken by your government against the leaders of the opposition to you, and we are particularly concerned by the recent murders of people who were identified with that opposition.

In recent comments, particularly in response to OAS President Cesar Gavaria, you said that you were unimpressed by criticism of some of your government’s actions from people who had nothing to say when coups were being plotted. We are not in that category. Indeed, we have all spoken out against the American government’s involvement with any unconstitutional effort to overthrow your government, and we signed a letter to President Bush, which was widely publicized in the United States making that point. But our objection to any American action that would ignore the results of the last Venezuelan election should not be construed in any way as indifference to the importance in a democracy of respect for the untrammeled rights of a vigorous opposition and we must tell you that we are concerned that recent events in Venezuela call into question that respect.

We urge you to do everything possible to apprehend the murderers of those opposition figures to which we referred, to do everything possible to prevent any further violence against those who have been in the political opposition, and to refrain from prosecution of individuals based on the vigor of their opposition to you. We hope that all parties in Venezuela will engage energetically in political debate, leading up to electoral processes sanctioned by the Venezuelan Constitution, which all parties will agree to respect.


REP. BARNEY FRANK
REP. JANICE D. SCHAKOWSKY
REP. LYNN C. WOOLSEY
REP. MAURICE D. HINCHEY
REP. JOHN LEWIS
REP. BARBARA LEE
REP. DANNY K. DAVIS

http://www.house.gov/frank/venuzulea2003.html

[acmavm]

1. Please, somebody quick post some pictures of the Florida debacle

at the FTAA demonstrations!!!!!!!!!!!

Like it isn't done here?

[windansea]

2. were people murdered and tortured in Florida?

PS this thread is about Venezuela and 2 wrongs do not make a right

[AP]

8. Nope. No anti-Chavez opposition snipers murdering people from roof-tops

in FL as there was in April 2002 in Caracas.

[windansea]

9. last I looked this is 2004

who are the fascists in this photo?

[AP]

10. The ones trying to put the corporations back in power. Duh.

[AP]

11. and the fascists are the ones BUSH is supporting.

[AP]

12. and the fascists are the ones who love neoliberalism.

[windansea]

15. I don't see Corporations, bush, or neoliberals

in that photo...Fascists can also come from the left as well, and anyone who tries to thwart democracy is a Fascist...that would include Chavez

[AP]

22. Anyone who knows what they're talking about sees all that in VZ's

future if the opposition "wins."

[ParanoidPat]

16. Very hard to tell from a single photo with no accompanying story......

......however you have made it abundantly clear from your posts that your mind is already made up on the information conveniently provided by an opposition web site and opposition owned and controlled newspapers that host the opposition party logo on their masthead! LOL! :evilgrin:

Feel free to keep posting your opposition propaganda as long as you do it civilly so we can keep pointing out the obvious biases in your sources and the factual lapses in the content. Just don't be too disappointed when you don't change many minds on a PRO DEMOCRACY web site.

You're just way too obvious! :eyes:

If you're looking for a 'rah rah lock step' crowd, to agree with you, try Freerepublic, I'm sure your message would be a hit there! ;-)
Most people here are far too aware of who the 'opposition' really are.

[windansea]

18. sorry but most of my info

comes from my venezuelan girlfriend and our 100's of friends in Venezuela...

My information and posts also include some pro chavez sources of course, but they also include places like the Carter Center, Barney Frank, UN, EU, many international rights organizations like AI, HRW, all of which support my position. Even the Guardian had an anti Chavez piece recently, and they were pro Chavez.

Please tell us about your personal knowledge of Venezuela and how many times you've been there, your friends there, and why you think you know more about the situation than Jimmy Carter, or Barney Frank, or Barbara Lee.

[windansea]

13. re April 11 2002 massacre

The April 11, 2002, battle

Death -riding from Llaguno bridge on glock guns- did not respond to an improvised plan, but to a well-planned strategy, with unmistakable roles and trained gunmen. A group of experts on criminal law, under the coordination of NGO Agenda Nacional de Seguridad, performed a detailed study on the event. The evidence collected shows that most of the 67 gunmen involved in the April 11, 2002, slaughter had links with governmental agencies or activist groups convoked to "defend the revolution."

The most outstanding case is that of a member of the Popular Liberation Army, who was in the pro-government faction and died during the clash on Llaguno bridge. He had a file in Colombia's Administrative Security Department, DAS, and five false identities. He was better known as Luis Alfonso Monsalve Ruiz. He was with pro-Chávez activists on April 11, 2002, when he was shot to death just under the bridge. No relative requested the body and was buried 10 months later without a precise identification.

According to the study, the first shootings began after the Metropolitan Police (PM) lifted its main barrier in front of El Calvario, downtown Caracas, due to threats by Chavista motorcyclists who were shooting into the air. The first clashes were produced at Av. Baralt, four blocks from Llaguno bridge. The first three injured people were rescued by the PM at 50 meters from the bridge. Two gunmen were hidden behind a tree at three blocks to Llaguno bridge; other four joined them from a newspaper stand. The gunmen shot from the bridge exhibiting the training they had received. The Llaguno bridge was the last bastion in the April 11 battle. According to the study, most of the deaths occurred before the shooting from the bridge.

4. A massive attack in cold blood

Sound evidence gathered in an exhaustive study performed by NGO Agenda Nacional de Seguridad (ANS) confirms what has been repeatedly said: what happened on April 11, 2002, was a real ambush against a demonstration called by the opposition. However, the gunmen are free and other people were accused after a smart "turning to the tables" in a court of Aragua state, closely linked to the government.
The report exclusively made public by El Universal on April 13, 2003, shows that out of 67 pro-government gunmen involved, 32 are fully identified thanks to photographs and videos analysed by the independent organization. The access to the evidence collected at the first moment by the Scientific and Criminal Investigation Force (Cicpc) shows that different types of weapons were used: FAL rifles belonging to the Venezuelan Armed Forces, 9 mm guns, 380 automatic guns, MP5 submachine guns and .38-caliber and .357-caliber revolvers, among others. A total of 974 projectiles were collected both in the place and bodies shot. 20 people died and 114 were injured. The fatal victims include 11 Chávez supporters, seven opposition members and two passers-by. The analysis of the case leads ANS to conclude that the attacks were part of a well-planned ambush.

http://www.eluniversal.com/2004/01/17/17A1433972.shtml

[9215]

36. Be honest about El Universal as a source windy.

:eyes:

[debsianben]

14. No on 1, Yes on 2

People weren't murdered during the police crackdown on peaceful anti-FTAA protestors, but people were most definitely tortured. There are all kinds of police brutality lawsuits on the works over this. There are people I know, some teenagers, who were subject to fairly sadistic use of electric tasers by police. Some of the stuff that was reported as happening in the detention cells qualifies as "torture" under any reasonable defintion.

Even one semi-retired JUDGE who was a witness said he personally saw about 20 serious violations of the law by police. I remember seeing an account by some one (an elderly gent bussed into the Miami protest with a group of senior citizens by the AFL-CIO) whose father was a cop who said that he had always respected the badge "until today when I saw these Nazis in action."

Anyway, I think that people who want to make Chavez's Venezeula out to be some kind of proto-police-state (like Bush's America in the age of USA-PATRIOT, TIPS, Homeland Security, airport "no-fly lists," sneak-and-peak library records checks, "no free speech zones" at protests, Orange Alerts used to prevent free assembly in NYC, etc., etc.) are perpetratig a bad joke. Far from being proto-totalitarian, in Venezuela the pro-business, pro-Yankee, anti-democratic "opposition" has a near-total monopoly on privately-owned mass media. The democratically elected government is so demonized in the mass media that you have things routinely like when a baseball player who has the bad luck to have the last name "Chavez" gets up to the plate, the sportscasters say things like, "here comes Chavez, no, not the pro-Cuban dictator Chavez, the baseball player Chavez..."

Now, wouldn't a pro-police-state-type government just send in whatever their equivelant was of the Department of Homeland Security and have the owners and editors arrested? Or at least nationalize the mass-circulation newspapers and TV stations and appoint new management? You'd sure think so, but that's not how the elected government has been handling it--their response to the total wall of "fair and balanced" vitriol directed to them daily by the Venezuelan media has been to pass laws making it easier for individual citizens to run pirate radio stations! They actually ran an article about this in the NYT.

That sounds like democracy from the bottom up to me, especially compared to the situation in the US of A where the handful of corporate media barons that own most all major TV stations, radio, newspapers, etc., are solidly pro-government and the government reciprocates by passing laws making it more difficult for any one without the resources of a large corporation to have access to the airwaves and having the FCC persecute any one trying to run pirate radio stations.

[windansea]

3. kick n/t

[windansea]

4. list of murdered, missing, and political prisoners

Political Prisoners

In Caracas:

Luis Guillermo Perez Amoros PRISONER IN EL HELICOIDE
Pedro Vasquez, PRISONER IN EL HELICOIDE
Juan Francisco Conde,
Jorge Enrique Lopez,
Adan Lozano Duarte,
Alfredo Ramos,
Macario Gonzalez,
Cesar Bello,
Ismely Torrenz de Pulido,
Santiago Monteverde, PRISONER IN EL HELICOIDE
Carlos Melo,
Rodrigo Alegrett, PRISONER IN LA PLANTA, TORTURED
Jose Ricardo Di Guida De Sola,
Justo Mendoza,
Felix Clavijo,
John Segovia,
Francisco Otazo,
Pedro Sequera,
Jesús López,
Nelly Torres,
Oscar Giménez,
Orlando Duque,
Freddy Pineda,
Roger Padilla,
José Dorante,
Adelino García,
José Gabriel Revilla,
Eliécer Patiño,
Jesús Campos Rauseau,
Juan Carlos Asuaje,
Marcos Julio Vivas,
Humberto Agudo,
Ángel Muñoz,
Richard Alvarez,
Luis Navas,
Yalibeth Trejo,
María Vargas,
César Chacón,
Miguel Plá,
Ronald Rojas,
Jesús Rodríguez,
José Valenzuela,
Tomás Lozada,
José Manuel Mora,
Alejandro Colmenares Ochoa , RELEASED
Andres Ignacio Machado Nuñez ,
Carlos Roberto Chacon Lanz ,
Onofrio Anesse,
Ricardo Sanabria, RELEASED
Maria Gabriela Ventosilla, RELEASED
Juan Cristobal Mendoza,
Alejandro Helmeyer Tinoco,
Italo Ferrara (14 years old),
Daniel Blanco,
Espositto Miranda,
Jose la Rosa Angola,
Carlos Barrios Freites,
Bautista Jose Torres,
Jose Ramon Merlo, PRISONER IN LA PLANTA
David Amundarain, PRISONER IN LA PLANTA
Jose Rafael Peralta Medina, PRISONER IN LA PLANTA
Heber Gustavo Prado, PRISONER IN LA PLANTA
Angel Kemp Daviot, PRISONER IN LA PLANTA
Leonardo Ronei,
Wilmer Gonzalez,
Gonzalo Ayala Paez Pumar ,
Gerardo Ayala Paez Pumar (15 years old),
Domingo Bottome,
Luis Alfredo Caceres,
Richard Barros,
Lorenzo Carrieri,
Antonio Marquez Olmer,
Orlando Batista Torres,
Jorge Esposito Miranda,
Asdrubal Rojas ,
Angel Cacique, RELEASED
Andrés Ignacio Machado Nuñez
Oliver Marquez
Carlos Alfonso Martínez (arrested on December 30, 2002)
Roberto Rasquin, RELEASED
Miguel Angel Montes, PRISONER IN THE JUSTICE PALACE
In Vargas:

Rosines Garcia ,
Albimar Escalona ,
Carmen Gonzalez ,
Mauricio Ceballos ,
Reinaldo Hernandez ,
Edgar Acosta ,
Wendy Gonzalez ,
Nelson Estarada,
Ayari Molina,
Belsis Martinez,
Otto Villalta,
Eduardo Paiva,
Ilson Carrero,
Poco Gonzalez,
Bruno Dales,
Estela Romero,
Marcos Vargas,
Lisette Gutierrez,
Miguel Gutierrez
Bruno Gallo
In Carabobo:

Cesar Hernandez
Ronny Flores
In Lara:

Maria Eugenia Vargas Betancourt ,
Jesus Ramon Campos Rausseo ,
Jose Gabriel Revilla ,
Jesus Enrique Rodriguez Tortorella ,
Jose Eliezer Valenzuela Partidas ,
Orlando Duque Rivera ,
Nelson De la Rosa
Fernando De la Rosa
Francisca De la Rosa
Jose Caravallo
Ysmely Josefina Torrens Pulido
In Nueva Esparta:

Alexis Pereira,
Luis Perez ,
Ramon Narvaes
William Lopez
Jose Da Silva
In Falcon:

Crispulo Chavez,
Isaac Zabala,
Jorge Luis Ruiz,
Wilfredo Prieto,
Jaime González,
Jesús Barón,
Felipe Ramirez,
Karelis Chirinos,
Douglas Vargas,
Edgar Rodriguez,
Edgar Castro,
Julio Graterol,
Ronny Diaz,
Renny Gonzalez,
Leonardo Nelo,
Alexis Sanchez,
Abraham Moreno,
David Mosquera
Cesar Reyes
In Tachira:

Lenin Mora ,
Antonio Noguera ,
Armando Useche ,
Elsy de Peña,
William Forero,
Wilfrido Tovar,
Jacobo Supelano,
Orlando Pantaleon,
Saul Lozano,
Jorge Hinojosa,
Omar Guillen,
Jose Neira Celis,
David Rubio.
In Zulia:

Linden Gonzalez ,
Lilia Ranger
Romer Barrios ,
Jorge Rote ,
Daniny Beitia ,
Willians Garcia ,
Lexiss Hernandez ,
Yovanny Milano ,
Juan Garcia
Yovanny Gomez .
In Bolivar:

Percy Guzman.
In Guarico:

Juvenal Mendoza,
Jose Diaz,
Jhonny Seguak
In Trujillo:

Hermes Valera,
Fernando Lama,
Oswel Torres,
Jose Rivas Damiani
Javier Milla
In Merida:

Jesus Marcano,
Tulio Febres,
Ronald Molina
Jesus Vera
In Monagas:

Oscar Garcia,
Luis Rincones,
Ronny Rincones,
Oscar Gamboa,
Enrique Narvaes,
Yuber Espinoza
Luis Garcia
Assassinated or missing

Alberto Aumaitre (assassinated)
Juan Carlos Lugo (assassinated)
Jose Vilas (assassinated)
Omar Arturo Morales
Juan Jose Perez
Juan Ernesto Sanchez
Andres Bastidas Guedes
Jose Luis Rodriguez
Eduardo Jose Miranda
Julio Cesar Gomez
Rafael Tomas Pulido Marcano (APPEARED BADLY TORTURED)
Pedro Jose Sanchez Robles (assassinated)
William Jesus Alvarez (assassinated)
Yorby Suarez Moreno (assassinated)
Eva Carrizo (assassinated)
Dictor Damas (assassinated)
Bruno Biella (assassinated)
Marvin Carrasco
Nelly Rodriguez Martinez (assassinated)
Reyes Jose (assassinated)
Juan Carlos Zambrano (assassinated)
Argenis Dugarte (assassinated)
Jose Guevara Reyes (assassinated)
Jose Sanchez Robles (assassinated)
Jose Luis Ricaurte (assassinated)

Many people have been intoxicated by tear gas whilst some others have been wounded by buckshot. The National Guard has been utilising live ammunition. It has to be borne in mind that the constitution explicitly prohibits the usage of tear gas and rubber bullets to control public demonstrations (Art. 68), let alone weapons of war.

http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200403020624

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

5. thats interesting

It has to be borne in mind that the constitution explicitly prohibits the usage of tear gas and rubber bullets to control public demonstrations (Art. 68),

Wasnt this the constitution that was promulgated by Chavez himself, or his political supporters?

Theres some irony in that, if true.

[windansea]

7. yes he helped pass that constitutional law

and also the law that allows recalls mid term, that he is now calling a massive fraud

[windansea]

6. Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International reports

Venezuela: Investigate Charges of Abuses Against Protestors

The Venezuelan government should conduct a thorough investigation into allegations that state security forces have beaten and abused detained protestors this week, Human Rights Watch said today. The investigation should also examine the circumstances of killings that occurred during confrontations between protesters and police.
Venezuela's Supreme Court Upholds Prior Censorship and "Insult Laws"

Investigate Killings of Opposition Supporters in Venezuela

The government of Hugo Chávez should carry out a thorough and impartial investigation into the abduction and murder of four opposition supporters whose bodies were found on February 16 and 17, Human Rights Watch said today.

Venezuela: Media Freedom Threatened

A government investigation into alleged violations of broadcasting regulations by two Venezuelan television stations threatens media freedoms in Venezuela, Human Rights Watch said today. The stations are being investigated for broadcasts that allegedly discredit the Venezuelan government and President Hugo Chávez

more here:

http://www.hrw.org/doc?t=americas&c=venezu

and from AI

04/03/2004 Venezuela: Fear for safety/use of excessive force (URGENT ACTIONS)

01/03/2004 Venezuela: Respect for human rights must be guaranteed (NEWS)

18/02/2004 Venezuela: President Chávez must recognize and respect legitimate human rights work (NEWS)

20/10/2003 Venezuela: Fear for safety/death threats/unlawful detention/torture and ill-treatment (URGENT ACTIONS)

03/09/2003 Venezuela: Death Threat / fear for safety (URGENT ACTIONS)

http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-ven/index

[ParanoidPat]

20. Just to put things into perspective.....

.... http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-usa/index Do as I say, not as I do? :shrug:

<1> Showing results 1 - 31 out of 1042
05/03/2004 USA: Stop Violence Against Women. 'If I die, I want you to tell the world what happened to me' (REPORTS)
AMR 51/001/2004
03/03/2004 USA: Death penalty / Legal concern, David Clayton Hill (m), white, aged 39. (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/045/2004
27/02/2004 USA: Despite releases, Guantánamo remains an affront to the rule of law (REPORTS)
AMR 51/041/2004
26/02/2004 USA(Ohio): Death penalty,William Wickline (m), white, aged 51 (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/040/2004
26/02/2004 Haiti: Human rights caught between groups on collision course (NEWS)
AMR 36/010/2004
19/02/2004 USA/UK/Denmark: Release of detainees (NEWS)
AMR 51/037/2004
18/02/2004 USA: 900th execution looms. A call to the President as Vietnamese refugee and Vietnam veteran set to be killed (REPORTS)
AMR 51/034/2004
18/02/2004 USA (Texas): Further Information on Death penalty (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/035/2004
16/02/2004 USA: Death penalty / Legal concern: George Franklin Page (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/031/2004
27/02/2004 USA (North Carolina): Further Information on Death penalty / Legal concern: George Franklin Page (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/042/2004
06/02/2004 USA (Texas): Death penalty (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/024/2004
04/02/2004 USA (Texas): Death penalty / Legal concern. Edward Brian Capetillo (m), Hispanic, aged 26 (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/022/2004
04/03/2004 USA (Texas): Further information on Death penalty / Legal concern. Edward Brian Capetillo (m), Hispanic, aged 26 (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/046/2004
01/02/2004 UA Action in Focus: February 2004 (REPORTS)
ACT 60/003/2004
27/01/2004 USA: Supreme Court to revisit constitutionality of executing child offenders (REPORTS)
AMR 51/020/2004
23/01/2004 USA (Florida): Death penalty / Legal concern. Johnny L. Robinson (m), black, aged 51 (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/016/2004
05/02/2004 USA (Florida): Further information on Death penalty / Legal concern. Johnny L. Robinson (m), black, aged 51 (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/023/2004
21/01/2004 Stop child executions! Leaflet (REPORTS)
ACT 50/002/2004
21/01/2004 STOP CHILD EXECUTIONS! Ending the death penalty for child offenders (REPORTS)
ACT 50/001/2004
21/01/2004 USA: Dead Wrong: The case of Nanon Williams, child offender facing execution on flawed evidence (REPORTS)
AMR 51/002/2004
16/01/2004 USA: "Where is the compassion?" The imminent execution of Scott Panetti, mentally ill offender (REPORTS)
AMR 51/011/2004
16/01/2004 USA: Where is the compassion? New Amnesty International report on the case of Scott Panetti (NEWS)
AMR 51/014/2004
16/01/2004 USA: Death penalty / Legal concern. Kevin Cooper (m), black, aged 45 (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/013/2004
10/02/2004 USA: Further Information on Death penalty / Legal concern. Kevin Cooper (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/027/2004
09/01/2004 UK/USA: Clarify fate of Britons held in Guantánamo Bay (NEWS)
EUR 45/001/2004
07/01/2004 USA: Death penalty / Legal concern. Scott Louis Panetti (m), white, aged 45 (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/006/2004
06/02/2004 USA: Further Information on Death penalty / Legal concern. Scott Louis Panetti (m), white, aged 45 (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/025/2004
06/01/2004 USA/Guantánamo: holding human rights hostage (NEWS)
AMR 51/005/2004
06/01/2004 USA: Evolving standards of decency (REPORTS)
AMR 51/003/2004
23/12/2003 USA: Holding human rights hostage (REPORTS)
AMR 51/164/2003

"Let he without sin".......and all that jazz! ;-)

[redqueen]

34. Hey, let no logic stand in the way of DU'ers backing up

bush's coup efforts!

Viva bush!

[Joanne98]

17. More traitor democrats.

Haven't they learned anything yet? Chavez feeds the poor and fights elite corruption. That is his big sin. I hope he kills all of the opposition. They're greedy.

[windansea]

19. you hope Chavez kills the opposition?

yikes...democracy in action huh?

[Joanne98]

21. Yes

Leftist protesters are always getting arrested, tortured and murdered. Especially in South America. Give them a taste of their own medicine. Those opposition protesters are working for Bush. They are the freepers of Venezuela. Beat them up, arrest them, make them talk with cattle prods, then throw them in prison, indefinitely. See I didn't say murder them. I believe in mercy.

[windansea]

28. first you say kill em all

now it's prison and torture...

again....YIKES

PS Chavez controlled security forces have already granted your wishes

[Iverson]

23. maybe that's "muscular" domestic policy

I don't support it myself, but I also don't support its international counterpart either.

[Joanne98]

25. It's called "treating them like they treat you"

I'm tired of the left getting all the human rights abuses. It's time they learn how it feels to be us. Besides, they'd kill us in a minute.
Chavez is cleaning up corruption. That's what he was elected to do. I think they been treated way to nicely up to now. If Chavez can out last Bush. We can give the okay to Hugo, to really let go on they're spoiled, greedy, corrupt asses. Of course they can always LEAVE Venezuela. God knows they have enough stolen money. Just as long as they don't come here, NOT.

[AP]

26. On the one hand, Chavez can win without resorting to this.

On the other hand, if you watch The Revolution Will Not Be Televised, it's obvious that one of the big reasons the coup didn't work was because good people in the guard had guns and were willing to turn them on the coup leaders (to arrest them).

[Joanne98]

33. I know but

The oil men will never give up on trying to privatize Venezuela oil and those "Brooks Brothers" protesters are getting paid to disrupt. Add the constant lies by the RW media and it's never going to stop.
Fascists don't understand anything but violence. He's did really good so far I know, but in the long run, using police powers against them is the only thing that will work. They just don't care about anything else.

[Iverson]

43. uhhh, a little problem

Dead people rarely internalize the moral lesson that they've just been taught.

Also, to my wacky way of looking at the world, a humanitarian ethic, while available to all, should be a particular hallmark of the left. Killing political opponents falls well outside of the humanitarian ethic.

We may have to agree to disagree.

[ldf]

24. it's about time you posted something based on reality

the letter is certainly critical of actions that have been taken. there are always actions taken during these confrontations that are wrong. if only every revolution was perfect.

but it also specifically says that they (who signed the letter) do not support the past us intervention in the form of an attempted coup, in venezuelan affairs.

and it certainly does not support the continued interference, as our government is planning.

i'm happy to see you have come around.

maybe you will now devote your efforts to a fair and just policy for the majority of the citizens of venezuela, not just the ruling, and upper, classes, who own the airwaves and control the content of the "public information" that is being released. much like bush is trying to control the amount of truth we americans have access to.

[AP]

27. Some people are here only to defend wealth.

[Offshore Bush]

29. But do those Congressmen/women

support the Chile-style destabilization?

[windansea]

31. nope

they didn't support 2002 coup either

this is different...they are supporting a fair democratic vote as I do

[windansea]

30. replies

"it's about time you posted something based on reality"

so my previous posts citing:

Carter Center & Congressman Frank condemning Chavez tactics vs legality of signatures for recall

Multiple reports by HRW, AI, ISHR, Reporters without Borders, the UN, the EU, etc etc detailing human rights violations and intimidation of free press

these are not real?

"but it also specifically says that they (who signed the letter) do not support the past us intervention in the form of an attempted coup, in venezuelan affairs"

this makes their criticism NOW all the more damning, as in...you cannot label us bushbot imperialist coup supporters...

"i'm happy to see you have come around."

nothings changed, same as it ever was.......

"maybe you will now devote your efforts to a fair and just policy for the majority of the citizens of venezuela, not just the ruling, and upper, classes, who own the airwaves and control the content of the "public information" that is being released. much like bush is trying to control the amount of truth we americans have access to."

I am devoted to "a fair and just policy for the majority of the citizens of venezuela" PERIOD....that's why I support a fair vote...you see...they have a constitutional law (that Chavez supported) that allows them to hold a mid term referendum to hold a recall vote on their President...the opposition gathered 3.5 million signatures in 4 days which is a million more than necessary, and now Chavez is trying to thwart the democratic rights of these people using outright lies and technicalities...

The opposition to Chavez is not just a tiny oligarchy of wealthy elites...opposition includes the entire middle class and a good portion of the poor...and many of these people originally supported Chavez. Depending on who you believe, his popularity ranges from 30 to 50 percent and this is why Chavez fears a fair vote.

That's why he's being condemned by me and many others whose opinions I respect.

[windansea]

32. chirpity chirp

:shrug:

[redqueen]

35. Sorry, but until the right wing fascists no longer own

and manipulate the airwaves to manufacture public consent (e.g. California recall), there is no hope for what you naively expect, namely that a democracy can function.

We have Arnold because of this crap referendum process partnered with a compromised Pravda-like media. You telling me you really want to work this hard to ensure the people of Venezuela are similarly punished?

[9215]

45. and you see: Chavez can't get away with being anything short of a saint

and Bush gets away with everything just short of being satan.

The bottom line is that the whole referendum is bogus because the voters were coerced and bribed. Why the Supreme Court doesn't consider this is beyond me.

But :wtf:, like the Iraq war, the truth will be ignored until there is blood in the streets. I just hope the people win and eliminate the opposition by whatever means neccessary once and for all. There is no meaningful Constitutional government in Venezuela with the US involved in it. Chavez should have locked the motherfuckers up once they were linked to Cisneros and the others.

It looks like the fascists have the referendum process to overturn any election that doesn't suit them and their imps will be shouting hurrah for democracy the whole time.

The BFEE must be destroyed.

[windansea]

37. YAY!!!!

CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters) - Venezuela's Supreme Court on Monday ordered electoral authorities to lift their objections against more than 800,000 disputed opposition signatures seeking a referendum against President Hugo Chavez.

The ruling by the court's Electoral Chamber, which heralded a bitter legal battle over the referendum process, boosted opposition hopes to secure a recall vote this year on the rule of the leftist leader.

Electoral officials decided March 2 that the opposition had initially failed to secure enough valid signatures to trigger the referendum. Foes of Chavez, who need to reconfirm 600,000 signatures to meet the referendum target, had appealed to the Supreme Court against the National Electoral Council decision to order a recheck of the questioned signatures.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040315/wl_nm/venez...

[redqueen]

38. YAY!

[windansea]

39. heh heh

what does Ahnold have to do with Venezuelans??

nada...zip...absolutely zero

[redqueen]

40. What does one compromised referendum which occurs in a

place where the corporate-owned media manufactures consent for the oligarchs have to do with another such perversion of democracy?

Why, far more than you surely can see from your vantage point, obviously.


on edit: Did money for any foreign power assist Arnold's campaign? No? Then I guess the California recall is different in at least that one huge way. At least it was honest. Now, if some foreign country had given Arnold lots of money, or had paid people to vote for Arnold, what would you (or Jimmy Carter, for that matter) think about that?

[windansea]

41. if you oppose the NED

you better contact Kerry and DK

they both support it.

Kerry supports more funding for it:

Kerry faulted Bush for providing funding for the National Endowment for Democracy that he said "is less than 3 percent of what this administration gives Halliburton." Bush, however, has proposed to double the endowment's budget in the next fiscal year, and he has made the promotion of democracy in the "Greater Middle East" a key goal of his administration this year.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A12301-2004Feb27?language=pri ...

The NED enjoys overwhelming bi-partisan support:

NED's congressional support has grown steadily during its first twenty years. From the early days of close and frequent votes on its authorizing and appropriating legislation, it has moved beyond survival to widespread bipartisan endorsement on the Hill. In fact, identical Senate and House resolutions (S. Con Res 66; H. Con Res 274) commending the National Endowment for Democracy “for its major contributions to the strengthening of democracy around the world on the occasion of the 20th anniversary” of its establishment, and endeavoring “to continue to support vital work” were passed in October, 2003. The Senate resolution was passed by unanimous voice vote; the House resolution sailed through on a roll call vote of 391-1. Both resolutions had strong, bipartisan co-sponsorship.(10) These votes were a reflection of how far the Endowment had come over the years in establishing not only its legitimacy but also the widespread bipartisan approval of its work. But the road had not always been a smooth one.

http://www.ned.org/about/nedhistory.html

[redqueen]

42. Did I mention the NED?

I thought I had asked what you would say if presented with evidence that a foreign power had corrupted the referendum with cash or some other form of coercion.

[windansea]

44. I don't know venezuelan campaign laws

I do know Venezuelan laws require full disclosure of donations and prohibit donations from foreign business interests, and that Chavez was investigated violating this law in 2002 for accepting money from a Spanish Bank...but I think foreign NGO's are allowed to as long as they disclose it...otherwise Chavez would be calling for a criminal case about NED funding of opposition groups instead of saying it's a CIA plot.

Here is an article about Chavez corruption in general.

If the Venezuelan Law against corruption was enforced...

VHeadline.com commentarist Gustavo Coronel writes: It is my opinion that President Chavez and most of his team of collaborators would be behind bars. As it is, however, the team is mostly and quietly sitting at bars...

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=7958

[9215]

46. and you never answer the question

what if those signatures were bought and paid for? You, in all this time, refuse to answer the question, or care. You are bought and paid for if not with money then something else.

Sit around in mystified wonder as the blood flows in the streets windnsea and remember you and your friends are to blame. Even your girlfriend may find herself a casualty.