Why shouldn't this guy get the death penalty if found guilty?

[doc03]

A 7 year old Ohio girl found dead in an abandoned well. She was raped, beaten and dumped in the well to die from drowning. Suspect is the mother's boy friend.

http://news-register.net/news/story/0311202004_new1girls.asp

[Renew Deal]

1. No argument from me.

If the proof is there (DNA) fire up the chair.

[bluestateguy]

2. Execute him, but only after due process is achieved

My first bias is towards due process of law. I have no problem with the death penalty. In fact, I think we should use it against white collar supercriminals, but the most important thing to me is due process: no incompetent attorneys, all appeals are exhaused, no police tampering with or witholding evidence or forced confessions. All the rules of justice must be followed. If it takes 15 years to execute someone to ensure that due process has been exhaused, then so be it.

[ashling]

Unfortunately, due process problems

often don't become evident until after the execution.
I opt for due justice...
Our criminal justice system strives for that, but too often falls short.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

3. Do you have a LINK for this story?

Did he have a fair trial?

Did he get a competent lawyer?

Was there an eye witness?

Who were the witnesses? What evidence did they have that made the police suspect the boyfriend?

Is he poor? The odds are he DID'NT have a competent lawyer.

I have serious issues with flamebait threads arguing the dealth penalty from low post count usurpers. Sorry, pal....

[doc03]

16. I will try to find a link

This just happened a couple days ago, they have the suspect in custody.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

19. Just an FYI-You Need to back up a story with a link

or your credibility is nil.

[doc03]

26. Here it is!

http://news-register.net/news/story/0311202004_new1girls.asp

[Kathy in Cambridge]

28. This story says NOTHING about the boyfriend being a legit suspect

"We're talking to a couple of people and following up on some information," Price said. "I don't know of any reason to believe it was a stranger abduction. I don't believe there is any evidence that points to that."

Sooo....why are you so quick to flip the swich on someone who MAY be innocent? Who the fuck are YOU to play God???

[childslibrarian]

4. Because frankly

and I am speaking from the point of view of someone with 16 years as a social worker and close acquaintance with lovely people...

death is too easy. Let him think about it--for many many years...in close proximity to others who might impact his thoughts...
Did I say that politically correctly!????

[DrWeird]

5. What will be acheived?

Petty revenge?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

6. No link to story? Bait for 'libruls' to argue letting 'crimnuls' go

:crazy:

We'll see where it goes...

[asthmaticeog]

25. The story's real

It's getting tons of airtime in Ohio. A troll this may well be, but the story ain't fake.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

27. Sorry, it ain't gettin' play up here

No link.

No evidence.

I'm skeptical.

Do you expect anything less?

[asthmaticeog]

35. Not surprised

With a name like RationalRose I'd be disappointed if you weren't skeptical of an unsupported claim! I'd find you a link myself, but screw that, that's the original poster's damn job, and why should I help a possible troll? I'm just vouching for the basics of the story as reported by the original poster being consistent with what I've gleaned from Northern Ohio media. I fully realize that doesn't constitute evidence, but keep in mind that a) this ain't court and b) I've no motivation to lie to help a stranger, especially one with whom I disagree and of whom I'm suspicious.

[sydneycarton]

34. I can tell you what will be achieved

He'll never murder again. Not even in prison.

Mike

[Kathy in Cambridge]

36. Which is why Life in Prison

is way more punishment than a quick and easy execution.

[unblock]

7. the focus is always too much on the victim and the killer

does a viscious rapist/killer deserve death, sure.

the issue is, is it a good idea to let the government kill its subjects? history says no.

it's really hard to see what good can come from killing undesirables that life imprisonment cannot accomplish.

[H2O Man]

33. I agree with "unblock."

There are two issues here. First is the emotional response. Some people do things that make it very difficult to not want "revenge." I should say I have had an uncle and a cousin murdered, and a nephew assaulted by a racist hate group. So I understand emotions. And I understand the desire for revenge. But civilization is defined by how we rise above our emotions. Principles are how we as a people will exist above and beyond the emotions and passions we feel. Is it principled to have people in our government decide who lives and who dies? Please be careful. One of my closest friends was accused of a racial hate crime in 1966, and convicted in 1967 for triple murder. He narrowly escaped the death penalty. For twenty years, police and prosecutors assured the public that he was a racist mad dog killer. But he didn't do it. And today, he is busy going around the globe assisting the wrongly convicted. But there were plenty of people that wanted Rubin to fry in the electric chair. I oppose capital punishment for two reasons: obviously the innocent people who are convicted is reason enough. But having our government serve as an instrument of revenge and death is very dangerous indeed.

[polmaven]

61. First, please accept my deepest sympathy

regarding the losses of your uncle and cousin, and the assault of your nephew! How terrible that must be for your family.

Secondly, With all you have suffered, I commend you for your rationality about punishment.

I saw a bumper sticker the other day that sums up how I feel about the morality of the death penalty.

Why do we kill people who kill people to prove it is wrong to kill people?


Killing is just plain wrong, whether it is done by a criminal or by the state.

And, you are right that far too many innocent people are convicted. Rubin can never get back that part of his life he spent in prison, but at least he has the possibility of having some life back now.

I can't recall how often I have heard statements like "There is no evidence that an innocent person has ever been executed"! Well, how often do they dig up those people and do DNA tests, or how often do they continue investigations once the prisoner is dead? OF COURSE INNOCENT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN EXECUTED!! But that's OK, because at least we took revenge on SOMEONE!

[bambo53]

8. How do you know it wasn't an accident?

Or maybe she asked to be beaten, raped, and thrown down a well?

Is this gonna be on Fox News all day everyday? And how are they going to portray it as all the "liberals" fault? Inquiring minds want to know.

[smirkymonkey]

44. "Maybe she ASKED to be beaten,

raped and thrown down a well????"

I hope that is sarcasm on your part, otherwise that is a pretty sick, f**ed up thing to say about a child.

[MrSlayer]

9. He deserves more than just the Death Penalty.

Too easy of a way out. He needs a nice prolonged torture first. Like put him in the worst area of Gen Pop, let everyone know what he did and then go on coffee break for a few hours. Do this everyday until they kill him or his execution date cames up.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

21. There's a nice place you could live if you'd like

I've heard that Saudi Arabia and Iran have a penal code based on 'eye for an eye'.

They are just the kind of uncivilized country your attitude would be at home. Enjoy!

[MrSlayer]

37. Just goes to show that they aren't all bad.

That's one thing they have right. How can you defend a piece of garbage like this? Anyone who would do something as monstrous as this deserves to have it back on him 10 fold.

This is just an issue where I part ways with the bleeding hearts. I have no sympathy for child rapists and murderers. I'd happily kill the guy myself and would have no trouble sleeping at night. How would you feel if this was your child? That's how I look at it. Maybe you would absolve the guy and blame society or a bad upbringing or whatever but I would want the guy's head on a platter. You can call it "petty" revenge but I'd call it satisfaction and justice.

How can you tell a parent who has lost a child in this horrific manner that they are being petty for wanting the same thing done to the perpetrator? There are people far more deserving of your "compassion" than some scumbag pedo killer. Like the victim's family for instance.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

43. But you have NO EVIDENCE the guy did it

I have no sympathy for child rapists either, but unless you have evidence, you have no case.

You are injecting your emotional response into the law. That pretty much guarantees an innocent person may be convicted. If your emotions dictated all criminal cases, there would be a lot of innocent people in jail.

[MrSlayer]

47. I'm not trying to railroad anyone.

I'm saying after they have found and convicted whoever did it, this is what should happen to them. I'm not into lynching anyone. When I say "this guy" I'm refering to whoever did it not the boyfriend who hasn't even been confirmed as a suspect.

[Mick Knox]

10. execution after trial.. no objections from me nt

[Kathy in Cambridge]

11. LINK? RESPONSE?

We await your evidence...

[Union Thug]

12. why not?

Because life imprisonment is far worse that a couple bullets to the chest. Unless, of course, you believe in all that heaven/hell BS, in which case one could make an argument that satan's eternal pitchfork being rammed up his ass is worse than a life of solitary confinement.

[billybob537]

13. DNA?

IF YOU CAN PROVE BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT IE DNA. I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT. IF NO DNA THAN NO DEATH PENALTY. HAVE YOU SEEN THE RECENT RASH OF OVERTURNED CONVICTIONS DUE TO DNA TESTS, EVEN WITH EYEWITNESSES,
NO DNA NO DEATH PENALTY PERIOD.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

17. We don't have a death penalty in Mass

what would be your argument FOR the death penalty?

Would you allow our Mormon fundie Governor to make these kinds of decisions?

[Toots]

14. We are the only Westernized country that is still so Barbaric as to

utilize Capital punishment. You lead by example. If it is okay for us to kill it is okay for anyone to kill.:shrug: We should be better than that.

[Deja Q]

15. An argument here:

I may otherwise be a grade A- liberal, but I am for the death penalty these days, for heinous cases where the proof is incontrovertible.

That's the beauty of a society that puts security before freedom: Security camera, extensive and accurate DNA testing, and so on... it means parents don't need to take the time to raise their children, meaning they can spend more time at their 2 jobs because the "family values" repukes support corporate america who contradict "family values" in almost as many ways...

Edit: altered subject line

[ithacan]

18. because killing is wrong

and just because it's a government doing the killing does not change that.

[BigBigBear]

20. Sorry; against the death penalty

Asserting someone should die for their offense is different from saying a government has the right to kill him.

This is a terrible crime, but as much as I would seek vengeance for that little girl, you can't be MOSTLY against the death penalty.

[never cry wolf]

22. I was always taught...

That God was the one to dispense final judgement in the next life and that the sins in this one would be paid for in eternity. Thou shalt not kill applies to the judges as well as the judged.

I am NOT a fundie more of an agnostic than anything but i had a christian upbringing and that is the way I understood the teachings of Jesus, which have merit.

Killing this sicko will accomplish NOTHING except to make the state a killer as well, the poor little girl will still have had an horrible end and will not come back to life. Lock him up forever in max security, let him know what rape feels like, let him search his soul every night and every waking moment afraid of what will happen when he passes. Then let him face his final judgement, alone with his maker and his beliefs. He is already in hell.

[mzmolly]

23. Can't find a link...???

However, opinions from so called LIBERALS vary doc03.

The common ignorant assumption on the part of Rethugs that so called *liberals* are all in agreement on the death penalty is false.

I agree with Rational Rose...this is bait.

:hi:

I don't think the death penalty solves anything, but I feel I'd pull the trigger myself in a heartbeat if someone brutally victimized a family member of mine.

The reason I don't care for the DP in general is because it's costly/ineffective and the justice system is partial to $. Additionally, I agree with the poster who said it doesn't make sense for a Democratic Government to execute it's citizens.

And, morally I agree with the poster that said "killing is wrong." The Government should hold itself to a higher moral standard then that.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

24. Thank you.

This is bait. The justice system DOES NOT treat the poor the same as the rich. Evidence is often cooked up in heinous cases where the prosecution needs a scapegoat. Unless the original newbie poster provides a link, I am skeptical at best. We're a little to bright at DU to fall for such bullshit.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

29. Link is Bullshit

No evidence points to boyfriend being a suspect. I can't fucking stand when people want to play God with no evidence.

[doc03]

32. This just happened this Wednesday the rape and beating evidence

just came out on last nights 11PM news. As of this time the boyfriend is the suspect, we didn't have a trial in 3 days, it's still a breaking story.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

38. So WHY are you so quick to fry him, pal?

You're letting your emotions get the best of you, and denying the supposed suspect due process. What if it turns out it's a serial pedophile and not the boyfriend?

[doc03]

40. Here is the latest link from March 13

http://news-register.net/news/story/0313202004_new4.asp

I said if found guilty. You sure ain't rational!

[Kathy in Cambridge]

45. You started the thread with flame and no link

I would say that YOU aren't the rational one, and your knowledge of the law is limited.

Do you not know how to answer questions? Did they teach you that in grammar school, or are you a product of a 'Red state's' public education system?

[doc03]

51. I am not rational! You started out calling me a lier

I provided you with 2 links since you asked. My opinion, if the man is found guilty beyond any doubt and there should even be DNA evidence he should executed immediately after the trial. It may not deter crime, but it will sure as hell deter him.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

53. You added the link to your original post-and I did NOT call you a l-i-A-r

There are some countries you may feel more comfortable in. Saudi Arabia comes to mind.

There are too many inequities in the justice system to support the death penalty. Many people on death row have had their convictions overturned. And BTW, DNA evidence is not the end all and be all.

[doc03]

55. I only posed the question for discussion

Since you inferred that I was making the story up I provided you with 2 links. It's obvious even if you saw the guy do it on tape you would say it was edited. This is precisely why us morons in the red states don't like condescending Massachusetts liberals. Pal

[Kathy in Cambridge]

58. Jesus-did you learn the 'condescending Mass. liberal' from Rush?

are you going to vote for that elitist Kerry or the man of the people Bush? :eyes:

I am NOT condescending. I am straightforward and when someone begins an unsubstantiated flame war, I expect them to put their money where their mouth is. That ain't condescending-it's called logical discourse.

If you can't follow DU rules-and use attacks like 'Mass. liberals'-you may be better off at other websites more in tune with your troglodyte behavior. What will you do when a MASSACHUSETTS LIBERAL IS IN THE WHTE HOUSE? OH NO! Better educational standards! Lower health care costs! great quality of life! Massachusetts is HELL ON EARTH!!!!!

[rumguy]

59. get a grip

you're losing it

[Ms. Toad]

30. Because:

1. Killing the mother's boy friend will not bring the child back to life.

2. Killing the mother's boy friend creates an additional set of grieving parents, children, and siblings. Murder by the State is no less painful to those left behind than is murder by an individual.

3. The death penalty is never applied evenly. Those accused of murdering non-whites and those accused of rural killings are rarely even charged with death eligible offenses. Even if charged with death eligible offenses, the death penalty is less likely to be imposed in these and other circumstances.

4. The standard for competent counsel is that counsel only slept through non-critical portions of the trial.

(Edited to correct spelling)

[Kathy in Cambridge]

42. Thank you for a Rational Response

Sometimes I think we should drop Prozac in the water supply, or get some of these bloodthirtsy, vengeful mo fos some counseling.

[mzmolly]

31. Being *found* guilty and being guilty are two different things.

Thanks for the link BTW... ;)

I have mixed feelings on this issue personally.

I don't have a problem with child murderers dying as it were ... :shrug:

I do have a problem with our so called justice system, and with this *system* being the avenue for such brutal justice.

So, on a personal level, I'd lose no sleep if a person who is *guilty* of a horrid crime winds up dead. But, I do have a problem with this being implimented as part of a civilized justice system.

[rumguy]

39. flame bait alert

This is no way to have a reasonable argument about the death penalty. This is the tactic on angry white man radio: tell about an outrageous crime and use that as justification for our current policy. It's an emotionally knee-jerk way to go about it: if you were really interested in this you have to deal with the fact that minorities and the poor get wind up on death row, and rich and white people usually don't.

You also have to deal with those who have been released from death row after having been proven innocent of their crimes...

[Kathy in Cambridge]

41. And possibly get an innocent man railroaded

based on heightened emotions and not due process of law.

I'm so sick of these emotional cripples projecting their neuroses into the legal system I could puke.

Why don't we just go back to Old Testament law and get it over with?

:eyes:

[SarahB]

46. What if he gets convicted and later evidence shows it wasn't him?

Who's going to bring him back from the dead? That's why I can't support the death penalty. But if it were my child, I could see taking matters in my own hands. Not that I would, but I could consider it.

[ulysses]

48. because the death penalty is wrong.

[YNGW]

49. I agree.

If found guilty, the perpetrator should die for what they have done.

[Forkboy]

50. State sponsored revenge is bullshit

red meat for the sick fucks.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

54. Yup, the idiots need their bread and circuses

:eyes:

[quaker bill]

52. The question is poorly asked.

To the extent you believe the death penalty is ever appropriate, then such a case would be the place to apply it.

There are always people, when looked at individually and in isolation, provide no rational justification for mercy.

You might as well as "If you were in a room with Hitler and you had a loaded gun, and you knew everything he was about to do to humanity, would you pull the trigger? and would doing so be moral?"

Even as a committed pacifist and a true believer in the notion that the death penalty is wrong, I must admit in the above scenario I would probably shoot.

The argument against the death penalty can only be understood in respect to the death penalty as an institution within the greater society.

The death penalty, as a social institution, is a clear and unambiguous statement that under certain circumstances, kiling another person is an appropriate way to solve a problem. "Crimes of passion" typically involve someone coming to the same conclusion using their own standards.

The point is never "does this evil s.o.b. deserve to live", that answer is likely no. The point is "does killing this evil s.o.b., compared to the available alternatives (life without parole) serve any higher purpose, like promoting a more just and humane society?"

Research and actual practical experience shows that it does not.

We execute more people than any other industrialized nation and still have the highest murder rate. Were the death penalty effective, this would not be the case.

[mzmolly]

60. But... your answer is most well stated...

:hi:

[leftistagitator]

56. Because innocent people keep being found guilty

Conceptually, I agree with the premise that some crimes warrant death. But innocent people keep getting on death row, sometimes the truth doesn't come out until after they have been executed.
This is my plan. Restrict the death penalty to judges, don't allow juries to give the death penalty. If someone is later exonerated for that crime, arrest and prosecute the judge for attempted murder. If the person has already been executed, prosecute the judge for murder. The death penalty should only be used when guilt is so assured that you would stake your life on it; This measure would bring responsibility back to the justice system.

[MAlibdem]

57. because that's not how the state should treat its citizens

putting him in jail for life is cheaper and more humane.