The West was warned. Now it is paying the price of the 'war on terror'

[pippin]

"They had been warned. The Aznars and the Blairs and the Bushes had been told by those who were their allies - France and Germany and many others, not to mention the Arabs - that their crusade against al-Qa'ida could most cruelly rebound upon them. The Madrid bombings are not only a terrible revenge for Spain's participation in "part two" of the "war on terror" - the illegal invasion of Iraq - but a cruel and incrementally more painful attack on civilians by al-Qa'ida."

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/fisk/story.jsp?story=501312

[bryant69]

1. Well

I certainly don't agree with a lot of actions the Bush Administration has taken in their pursuit of the War on Terror, but what exactly could we have done that would have satified Al-Queda?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[BurtWorm]

11. And why should al Qaeda be satisfied, anyway?

Let's not forget who created al Qaeda: the US government, through the Pakistani intelligence service and BCCI.

[Brotherjohn]

2. A military "war" works against nations because you can change regimes...

... with military might.

A military "war" cannot work against terrorism because you cannot change minds with military might.

[Gasolinedream]

4. Excellent Point...

The whole idea that people have bought into this "war" on terrorism irritates me. It's like the failed "war" on drugs. Wars have specific targets usually and involve some goal. What's the goal of the "war on terrorism"? Kill every person who hates enough to kill others? How do you actually do that?

We will not change minds. i agree with you 100%

On a more specific incident, i am torn on the whole Spain thing. By backing out of Iraq, will they really accomplish anything and will they actually not get attacked again? These holy warriors hate Western Society's living standards and freedoms. We are too permissive according to them. Spain would be considered decadent. I am not sure they wouldn't have eventually been attacked anyways, but obviously, if it turns out to be Al Queda, they were probably chosen for ease of attack and the government's support of the war in Iraq.

These are some crappy scenarios aren't they?

[Robbien]

7. The holy warriors as you call them

do not hate the West for silly things such as the West living standards. They hate the West because the West stages coups against weaker nations to steal their wealth and oppress their people.

Iraq, Haiti, Venezuela, to mention just a few.

[Gasolinedream]

9. I agree with you...

but from what I have read on Bin Laden specifically, he hates the decadence almost as much as he hates the other things our country does such as Iraq, Haiti, etc. He does try to live by what he considers a Muslim code. I call them Holy warriors because most of Al Qaeda is a group of extremists and not entirely representative of Muslims in general. Bin Laden and other "recruiters" use the "decadence' of the West to show the young, impressionable men how awful we all are and how we can be easily sacrificed for our government's sins.

This is all based on what I know and what I have read. Obviously, a full analysis would take a lot longer.

[Robbien]

12. If the West did not invade their world with our decadence

they would have no need to come after the West. Only when we oppressed their people and started to steal their wealth to support our decadence did they feel the need to declare war.

To them decadence equals greed equals the West and the West's aggressive wars. And we have done nothing to prove that wrong.

[BurtWorm]

14. Don't make al Qaeda and murderers of innocent people out to be victims and

martyrs themselves. Al Qaeda is partly a product of the US government's war against communism in Afghanistan and the Middle East. They're our little frankenweenies biting the hand that fed them.

[Brotherjohn]

8. See my posts in this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1234257&mesg_id=1234363&page=

Terrorists are evil. They are pathologically insane. But if a goverment commits injustices in fighting them, then both that nation's people and the terrorists can share the same interest in having that government replaced.

The same goes for us here.

[Malva Zebrina]

19. Those who would do this evil have successfully used faulty language

as a slogan for murder , invasion and empire building. There is no such tangible thing as a war on terrorism. It is a made up concept using language spuriously to get stupid people to sanction their murders and conquests.

[Malva Zebrina]

23. The Spanish forces that were sent to Iraq were troops of a certain order

of St. James de Campostela--they wore badges that identified them as such. To me, this was real arrogance in the face of Iraqi Muslims who had nothing to do with anything or did not choose to be born in Iraq and who have been conquored by an American fascist.

Here is the story of the order of St. James de Campostela



http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/aug2003/spai-a12.shtml

[Ms. Clio]

25. An article from the Guardian last year on the same thing

A row broke out in Spain yesterday after the country sent its first troops to patrol Iraq wearing on their shoulders the Cross of St James of Compostela - popularly known in Spain as "the Moor Killer".

Patches bearing the cross, the symbol of a saint who allegedly guided the medieval Christian re conquista of Spain from the Muslims, are to be worn by a 2,000-strong Spanish brigade in central Iraq, who will patrol the sacred Shia city of Najaf.

While newspapers and radio stations reacted with astonishment at the choice of symbol, politicians avoided the argument.

"If we start debating this subject the risks surrounding the mission will only be increased," said a spokesman from the opposition Socialist party, Jesus Caldera.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/article/0,2763,1005509,00.html

[ewagner]

20. Exactly n/t

[JuniorPlankton]

3. Crusade against al-Qaida??

What does the war in Iraq have to do with al-Qaida?
(Other then creating a huge training camp with live target there.)

[Gasolinedream]

5. Al Qaeda

has been using the Iraq War to get recruits by basically telling the young people they go after that the U.S. wants to kill all the Muslims and take over that entire region. They want to associate the Iraq war with their "holy war" just as badly as the Shrub has been wanting to associate Saddam with BIn Laden.

[seabeyond]

6. i dont think these people are shy in excuses to murder

the innocent. if it isnt war on iraq, it would be the favoritism of isreal, or military in saudi, or just cause mohummad says to,.

[Brotherjohn]

10. Yes, if "Mohammed tells them so", it's difficult to stop that.

But if that were all the incentive, terrorism would be limited to a few mid-Eastern David Koresh's committing a few acts a year. Criminals will be criminals.

But when you declare all-out, world-wide war, the opponent will respond in kind.

If we are attacked again (and we probably will be), we will have to return to the debate no one wanted to have the first time: to what extent are our actions contributing to this terrorism?

This does not propose that WE are responsible for the terrorism. But we DO contribute by our actions. There are reaosns for a thing called diplomacy. One can argue that the Bush administration's lack of diplomacy in dealing with the Mid-East prior to 9-11 was a contributor in stoking the fire already under Al Qaeda. One can also argue that the way in which we have approached this "war on terror", with an even more incredible lack of diplomacy and heavy-handed tactics, has stoked Al Qaeda's fire even moreso.

[seabeyond]

13. so with you

i am a believer the middle east is going to have to own their part, and a sect of their religion is violent, and cult like worshipping for the young male in schools, ways to control the poor. absolutely and their history is of violence. there are also things the u.s. over the years has done to create the intense anger. and i agree it is thru walking into the angers and the fears and turning over the power to fix to the middle east. that is why the war in iraq will never work, we are there to fix,. we cannot fix, it isnt ours to fix. the fix has to come from the people in the middle of it creating it

just like the black community, we cannot fix, they have to, but we can help to create a peaceful and harmonic enviroment of encouragement for them to do the work.

same with the female community, or the white male, or the fundie group, hence my desire to go to the ministers telling them quit worry about everyone outside your group, start focusing and healing your group. only you can do, not i

clinton had a pretty good view of this with isreal and palestine, he just didnt have enough time and bush dismissed it

but to do this, one has to be open, outside the box. bush isnt capable cause he is so limited

[bemildred]

15. It was pointed out here many times

when TWAT was started, that it was a stupid enterprise,
like the The War Against Drugs and The War on Poverty and
so on. They will just have to get used to the idea that
war is the wrong paradigm to address these systemic sorts of
problems or else they will continue to wallow in these messes
while bankrupting their nations in the process.

[Imajika]

16. I am pretty sure Fisk would have had the West...

..surrender to al-Qa'ida after the 9-11 attacks.

This guy consistantly opposes doing anything serious about Islamic terrorism.

In Fisk's rather twisted mind, every ill in the world is the fault of America and Israel.

Fisk's most laughable piece was probably the one in which he asserted that Baghdad's defenses appeared impenetrable. Fisk was not only wrong here, he made an utter fool out of himself writing such drivel.

Then there was Fisk's encounter with religous fanatics, I believe in Pakistan, where he got the crap beaten out of him - yet went on to blame America for that too.

I tried for years to give Fisk the benefit of the doubt because I thought it was good to have a least some voices standing up for the suffering of the Palestinians, but I simply can not take him seriously any longer.

Imajika

[bemildred]

17. al Qaeda is not a military organization.

There is no way to surrender to it.

Fisk does not advocate terrorism, he advocates doing something
effective about it, instead of engaging in stupid and irrelevant
wars that kill thousands of civilians and help out the terrorists
with their recruiting efforts.

[Malva Zebrina]

21. I think Fisk is brually honest and people do not like to be faced with

the truth. Those with ties that bind to certain causes, naturally will try to villify Fisk for not taking their side and justifying slaughter and murder and killing . He certainly is not on the side of the terrorists. I think he is on the side of justice and humanity. It seems a popular thing to do today, for some to try and discredit Fisk now. I hope he just keeps on reporting.

[bemildred]

24. Yeah, they want to be told everything is fine and it's all going to be OK.

[oc2002]

18. Beware of wars with "ON" in the title.

How do you fight a non centralized, without borders, ideal or beleif with bombs?

Now if its a war "WITH" somebody, Hitler, Sadam, Iraqies, Talaban... where you know who they are and where they are, thats different.

This whole war "ON" terror, is like war "ON" drugs, crime,.., its just hype.

[Malva Zebrina]

22. a course in logic, language and Philosophy should be required of every

grammar school child.

I am convinced that we have so many dumbed down people in this country who disdain, and are proud of it, a comprehensive education, that anything a stupid man like Bush who bullies everyone says is like immutable law. They know nothing. Listen to the callers on CSpan for an insight as to how people cannot think- The key to a better informed country is education-that is why the Republicans are forever trying to do away with public education-education for every child and education that brings them up rather than dumbs them down.