This is bad! First stages of a US coup?

[Trek234]

I said months ago at DU that we need not worry about Bush trying any kind of coup in 04 unless some very critical events were taken care of before hand that would be very noticeable.

One of those events would be the dismissal and replacement of high ranking military officials that may turn against Bush in such an event. This has now happened. (see http://www.msnbc.com/news/947673.asp)

Hitler did this. Hell ALL dictators have to be *very* careful of who is in positions of power in the military.

So the question is... Is this initial preparation for 04 should the election go against Bush?

11 generals down so far with "more to come" out of a pool of 50. That's over 20% of the leadership thus far. Not exactly a small change...

[Itascapark]

1. Interesting...

Thanks for the post...we should watch this, folks.

[SweetZombieJesus]

2. I never even thought about that when I read that article

Now I am scared.

[aquart]

25. Well, let's see about this.

So Bush replaces the generals. Good. Fine. Nice Hitler Youth retirees in place.

Where's the army? The black hispanic white bread and foreign volunteer army? It's in Iraq. It's in Afghanistan. The Phillippines. Colombia? Bosnia, any left? Maybe, by then, Iran or Syria? Liberia?

So who's home? Who are these generals going to order around?

He'll have to arrest Congress, of course. At least, the Democratic dissenters. Which means the Black caucus. Oh, that will go down well.

Who will George claim is the enemy he must protect us from? The Democrats? The arabs? The evil French?

I'm going to have to say this, gag on it but say it: Bush isn't fit to lick Hitler's boots. Hitler, who I am dreadfully sorry wasn't torn to bits by a pack of rabid wolves, was a leader who could make people believe him, who could efficiently organize a war machine, even though, as fascism, it made a complete mess in the end and had to be cleaned up. Bush can't make it that far. He's a world dictator wannabe. He's inferior goods even for a monster.

And the worthless, self-congratulating crew that works for him.....proof that minimum sentences for political malfeasance are a necessity. Why the hell is Poindexter a free man?

You know what? My vote to the man who swears he will grant NO political pardons.

[Trek234]

36. Give a badge to radical right wingers

And you have your gestapo for home pretty fast.

Many dictatorships recruit average citizens for work at home who are loyal to the regime, while the military is away.

"He'll have to arrest Congress, of course. "

Not if another tragedy happens on the scale of 9/11 or worse. They will go along with it pretty damn fast in that case. By the time it's obvious what was really going on it is too late.

Again - not saying this what will happen (which could be nothing). But hell it wouldn't surprise me.

[DieboldMustDie]

52. another tragedy on the scale of 9/11 or worse...

could, if they're the target, pretty much wipe out the Congress in one shot.

[Zan_of_Texas]

159. Yeah, don't forget the "shadow government"

that was lurking under some nearby mountain near D.C.. Many members of Congress were surprised to find out the Bush admin. had instituted this, um, odd turn of events, with members of the federal government taking turns going, literally, underground for stints.

Combined with the earth-shaking digging that was going at the Vice Presidential residence for weeks, apparently digging something underground, but they would never say what.......mama mia.

[Resistance Is Futile]

64. Building a Republican Guard

There are a lot of grass-roots Rethuglicans who believe the democratic party, much less real leftists, are either allied to or indistinguishable from al Qaida and the Baath party. Perhaps not so coincidentally, these people are also very strong supporters of the 2nd ammendment and tend to be armed to the teeth. They could very easily be recruited into a brownshirt army.

On another front, Rump has been seriously talking about recruiting foreigners to serve in the armed forces in exchange for citizenship. Not only are these people politically disposable when used for occupation duty but they will also have no understanding of democratic traditions and no shortage of willingness to shoot Americans if so ordered.

The framework for creating a new SS or Republican Party Guard is certainly in place and could be activated very easily.

[IndianaGreen]

121. A good old fashion Night of the Long Knives! A purge!

The list of retirees was, sources say, drawn up in discussions between Rumsfeld, Schoomaker and Keane. Most of those going are being axed not for personal failings but to open up job slots that are viewed as key to Army transformation.

We don't want anymore General Shinsekis telling us that we have unrealistic expectations of a given war, or that we have mission commitments for 12 divisions on a 10-divisions Army.

How interesting that the Chairman of the JCS, General Myers, made his name by faking test results for Star Wars. There is nothing like loyalty!

Think of the effect this will have on the lower ranks, and their already sour opinion of Rumsfeld.

[Mairead]

189. "My vote to the man who swears he will grant NO political pardons."

That would be Dennis Kucinich, I think.

[cherryperry]

3. Don't think I haven't already been thinking about this!

I can just see Homeland Security recommending the cancellation of elections due to terror gone red ... Bush coming on all tv stations to explain how he doesn't want to do this, but will follow the advice of HS ... oh, please, someone, wake me up!

[aquart]

78. Did Hitler have 50 state governors?

Because I'm thinking our coup suddenly has another problem. Getting revenue from the states to the federal government.

I can see a state court saying not to give revenue to an illegal regime.

And those right wingers, those militias, isn't this the nightmare they've been waiting for? The chance to patrol local fiefdoms? So instead of his Gestapo, he gets gunhappy guerilla groups who never trusted the federal government worth a damn anyway.

Like Iraq, Bushco will sadly mistake what Americans are willing to do for their country.

And WHERE will the revenue come from? What industry will survive? How will Bush collect taxes? How will the Supreme Court decide? Shoot four and appoint four more?

Shoot the professors at the universities. Ooops there goes all new research. Damn that could have brought in a buck.

What will the dollar be worth? Who will invest in the stock market?

Business doesn't like instability and Bush has proved incapable of stabilizing anything.

He'll have to default on treasury obligations. So those great tax breaks? The rich boys better have switched to Euros. Which will probably crash too.

There will be places that are not calm. Potential nests of civil war. Oh, it could get so bad.

Because George has never and will never do anything right.

What kind of revenue will the networks make with a coup pre-empting the new season? Who will still be able to afford cable?

A coup always sounds so easy. But really, look at the Baghdad mess.

[RussBLib]

83. At that point I march on Washington

and I'm sure others would join me. And I wouldn't care if they gunned me down in the process. At that point, this country is no longer worth living in.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

4. No offense, but you are getting a little carried away with your

coup theory. Housecleaning is completely normal and necessary as organizations grow and retool. It happens in business when they change CEOs and it happens in the military when they change the top guy. You're scaring yourself for no reason.

[sandnsea]

9. You're in corporate denial

Sorry, I've never seen anything remotely resembling what these people are doing EVER.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

15. I'm not denying anything. I just don't think it is anything to worry

about.

[Trek234]

11. Just saying it MIGHT be something to pay attention to

It could very well be nothing. But then again - maybe not.

Don't compare this to a business. This is a military. Hell, even in business how often are 20% of the executives replaced with "more to come" in the time span of a week?

[TahitiNut]

40. How often??

Usually such a purge takes place in business with a change in ownership. To my knowledge, except occasionally in small businesses (less than 500 employees), it never happens otherwise in a publicly-traded business.

[Trek234]

If you are going to compare the US government

to a business - at least have to decency to compare it to a very LARGE business with at least a couple thousand employees.

How often does a publicly traded company with thousands of employees change over 20% of the executives in the time span of a week? Even with a change in ownership. Not bloody often.

[Lars39]

13. This is the 2nd wave to leave. The first occurred either shortly after

Bushco took office, or after 9/11---can't remember which. Don't be so dismissive of actions like these; historical examples abound.

[sattahipdeep]

79. u mean this isn't a scary bunch?

Some of the generals are being axed because why?
They won't go along with what they are told is my guess
http://www.totse.com/en/conspiracy/dead_kennedys/161963.html

[kainah]

5. Also being discussed in LBN

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=49641&mesg_id=49641

The scarier part is that this is being done very quietly. I doubt, however, that these generals will all remain quiet.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

8. So what do you think they are going to say?

Just curious.

[imax2268]

12. Probably not...

they will probably go on the major news networks as "military experts"...

But it would be nice to hear them talk of the inner workings of the Pentagon and the * administration.

[Walt Starr]

21. For the most part, it would be illegal if they didn't remain quiet

Most of what they know cannot be spoken for twenty years. It's all a part of their security clearance. They signed a contract that specifically requires they don't say anything for years after they seperate from the military.

[sattahipdeep]

88. under penalty of what?

[Walt Starr]

104. They can be tried for treason and put to death

and under our current climate, it would be in a military tribunal in another nation.

[sattahipdeep]

90. depends on the threat.

[sandnsea]

6. It'll be before the election

Some national emergency that requires martial law. And I'm afraid the country is not in much of a mindset to resist at this point. I've asked before and I still don't know, at what point do we leave for our own survival? Even if to resist from another country?

Hitler historians, what's the absolute progression, the point of no return?

[MUAD_DIB]

26. Chimpy will need a Reichstag fire...

Something devestating on a political level ...like blowing up part of Washinton ...maybe Congress while the Dems and Moderate repubs are there but everyone else stays away.

Maybe an antrax/bio attack on all of the unsuspecting citizens of a major U.S. city.

Wouldn't that be just what chimpy needs?

Then all of the yahoos, that have no brains, will be calling for the death of anybody that Chimp blames ...and all of the LiBruls to boot.

[Vitruvius]

193. Chimpy got his first Reichstag fire on 9/11 --

if he wants another one, he'll find a way to MIHOP.

[liberalhistorian]

28. I firmly believe that if, God forbid and help us if it

does happen, the Bushista Regime "wins" in 2004, that that will be the point of no return since it will mean that Americans either approve of him and his policies and methods and destruction of the country, or they are too blind or too apathetic. I don't even think moving to Canada, as I have decided I will do if, indeed, he does remain in the presidency after 2004, will really make much difference, it'll be all over.

[TheBigGuy]

7. Curses, (tin)foiled again!

you people here at DU go off the deep end sometimes.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

10. No shit!

It's getting nuts around here. Spooks behind every rock. We're afraid of our own shadow. Every day is a new boogieman. Calm down folks.

[ldf]

215. you know that saying that goes something like...

if you are able to keep your head while all those around you are losing theirs....

you obviously do not have a good grasp of the situation.




i think that fits this particular predicament we find ourselves in.

[sandnsea]

14. You think the current times are normal?

Seriously, nothing strange is happening in this country right now? Everything is status quo, like it's been since you were a kid?

[whoYaCallinAlib]

18. Define what you mean by "strange".

If you asked me are things "fucked up", I would say YES in spades. Strange? No. Normal shit for repukes.

[sandnsea]

51. Okay, let's talk about how fucked up it is

You think it's normal for Republicans to put a preventive strike policy in place? To remove the routine oversight for nuclear weapons development. Normal to have faith-based programs. Normal to have the President calling citizens sinners. To appoint the most rabid right wing judges that are quite vocal about their intent to roll back so many protections it boggles my mind to try to list them all. Normal to actively implement strategies to destroy social security, medicare, overtime laws, public education, and every other program or right we've enjoyed for 100 years. Normal to actively engage in recalling a state governor. To use Federal law enforcement to hunt down State legislators. To visit CIA headquarters to pressure analysts to manipulate intelligence. To out a CIA agent in order to intimidate other agents. And now they're letting go of vast numbers of military generals.

And you say this is normal shit for repukes. What world are you living in? Maybe you're just so young you don't know what it's supposed to be like.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

93. Oh please . . . nothing these repukes do shocks me.

I expected shit like this . . . nothing is over the top for these guys.

[NNN0LHI]

96. You forgot that he appointed John Fugging Ashcroft to Attorney General

That should have been a tip off that we are past fugged up. Way past.

Don

[PurityOfEssence]

135. One of the best posts I've ever read

Innocently concise though it is.

The metaphor of the Frog in the slowly warming water screams inside my head.

Who would have thought a "first strike" intrusive regime change and implementation of "legal" no-recourse, litigation free oil robbery would pass without even a ho-hum? This is outrageous.

I was reading a buzzflash article about a bumper sticker that said "kick their ass, take their gas" and I'm disgusted. (Not demoralized or depressed, mind you, DISGUSTED.)

I AM a student of history, and this is not just tinfoil paranoia. Any version of this is bad.

We screw ourself when we can only think of hard Coup d'Etats with guys in black leather trenchcoats behind every corner. Smaller, kindler, gentler totalitarianism is easily possible, and it comes incrementally.

How soon 'til we take Venezuela?

I know it's "cool" to dismiss conspiracy theorists as nervous nellies, but ANY VERSION OF THIS IS BAD. This is to crush opposition within the military and remove anyone who won't do "ANYTHING".

[sandnsea]

183. Kinder, gentler totalitarianism

Exactly. I don't expect a gun fight in D.C. either. Especially with people who chalk it all up to Republicans as usual. A visible coup won't be necessary.

[Iverson]

188. You're talking about friendly fascism.

I am currently reading that same book.
I am also inclined to agree with you that we're there.

[Brian Sweat]

203. I don't believe that we are on the verge of a Dictatorship,

but the idea that this is normal Republican behavior is silly. This stuff didn't happen under Reagan, Bush I, Nixon or Ford. It sure as hell didn't happen under Ike, Hoover, Coolidge or Harding.

The military is supposed to love Republican presidents and vice versa. When was the last time we had a purge of generals like this. My guess is 1863 when Lincoln went through the West Point graduation rolls looking for a general that would take the fight to the enemy.

These are certainly strange days. What they portend, I cannot tell, but they are strange.

[SweetZombieJesus]

30. When I was a kid, Reagan was President

So I'm inclined to suspect a lot of stuff in the news.

[sandnsea]

44. When I was a kid, Kennedy was President

And I've never seen anything remotely resembling what's going on now.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

49. Same here sandnsea

I barely remember Carter, and I remember Reagan/Bush, Clinton, and I've never seen it like this either.

[FlaGranny]

196. When I was a kid, Roosevelt was president

and I've never seen anything like this either. Nixon scared me a bit, but he was a pussycat compared to what's going on now. Even Reagan and Bush #1 were nowhere near this bad. The present situation is the culmination of everything NOT good in a democracy. This is an administration with plans to take over the world by theft, stealth, and war. Our country has never been in this much danger.

[maha]

198. FlaGranny wins

I started to write in, "When I was a kid, Truman was President," but you spoiled THAT, didn't you? ;)

The times are damn weird. However, the Pentagon generals and Rummy have been at war since Shrub was sworn in. The brass hates Rummy passionately, without reservation. Rummy's probably putting in generals who will keep their mouths shut.

The story that's not getting into the news is that the military, top to bottom, is turning against Bush. If he thinks he can use the U.S. military as his personal guard, he's going to be in for a shock.

Also keep in mind that there are NO PRECEDENTS for not holding an election. There were presidential elections in 1864, during the Civil War, for pete's sake. Soldiers cast absentee ballots on the battlefields.

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

200. When I was a kid, Nixon was president and we had a press that actually

investigated wrongdoing and appeared to believe in democracy. Now we have a tabloid press that MIGHT report something that is leaked, if we're lucky, but they will not investigate what is really going on, or report it to us in any coherent fashion, or care if their facts about it are even straight.

How can there be a democracy if the citzens are ignorant of what is actually going on, and the press sees its role as supporting a secretive government and propping up and actually glorifying a leader that wasn't even elected fairly?

[sattahipdeep]

165. Actual behavior is, as the current vogue term suggests. " irrelevant".

FORT BENNING, Ga. (AP) - At the National Infantry Museum here, one
of its most prized paintings lies flat on the floor, covered by glass, so
visitors can walk on it

Museum director Frank Hanner thought that the most appropriate way
to display a large oil painting of Saddam Hussein brought home by U.S.
troops from Iraq.

Hanner said he's following the lead of the former Iraqi leader, who put
former President Bush's image on the floor of a Baghdad hotel.

In Islamic culture, showing someone the bottom of your foot or the sole
of your shoe is a great insult.

[Trek234]

16. Look, SOMETHING is up

Only a fool would believe 20% of the army leadership is being replaced with more to come because they are not "imaginative" enough.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

20. Call me a fool then.

I'm surprised it's not more.

[knight_of_the_star]

152. That kind of replacement

Would only happen if you are taking a military that is completely shattered and replacing it with a new one. That or you are putting in place officers that will be loyal to the person who gives them their positions of power.

[IndianaGreen]

180. August 19, 1934, Hitler becomes Fuehrer. (the loyalty oath)

On August 19, about 95 percent of registered voters in Germany went to the polls and gave Hitler 38 million votes of approval (90 percent of the vote). Thus Adolf Hitler could claim he was Führer of the German nation by direct will of the people. Hitler now wielded absolute power in Germany, beyond that of any previous traditional head of state. He had become, in effect, the law unto himself.

The next day, August 20, mandatory loyalty oaths were introduced throughout the Reich...

<snip>

These oaths were pledged to Hitler personally, not the German state or constitution. And they were taken very seriously by members of the German Officers' Corps with their traditional minded codes of honor, which now elevated obedience to Hitler as a sacred duty and effectively placed the German armed forces in the position of being the personal instrument of Hitler.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/becomes.htm

[JanMichael]

22. Nothing wrong with informing people about these things.

And, please don't take this the wrong way, you work for a defence contractor (or something along those lines) so to be frank I'm not surprised by your easy dismissal of this story.

Biting the hand that feeds is tough, I know that.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

34. Nobody is dismissing anything. The story is true.

The interpretation that "this is bad" and evidence of a "coup" are simply without basis. Now for the sake of "harmony" on this thread, I'm gonna switch sides now. Okay, gotta turn my skepticism and common sense off. Ready. Yeah, that's it. It's gotta be a coup! How could I have missed that? Everybody can see it's a coup. Oh dear! We have a coup going on!

[Trek234]

42. <sigh>

No one ever said THIS was a coup.

Simply something that COULD be a phase of a coup to be.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

95. "could be a phase of a coup to be"?

Okay, Trek234. The jig is up. I know it's you Bill Clinton behind that screen name. Nobody can parse words like you.

[Trek234]

139. Hmmm

So a Clinton slam, and general attitude that Rummy is a genious, and the idea that you run the government like a business.... I really wonder where you are from. <cough>

[whoYaCallinAlib]

147. Where did I call Rummy a genius, genius?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

172. The Irony In You

spelling g-e-n-i-u-s is rich.

Maybe if you are really good Santa will bring you a dictionary.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

182. You ought to get that cough checked.

[JanMichael]

55. Look. I don't TRUST this Administration as far as I can throw them.

You ought to know by now that Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Pearle, Wolfowitz and the rest, are highy undemocratic people. They are not above any speculation when it comes to these things.

Period.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

97. I agree with you. They have no boundaries. BUT . . .

. . . to imply that this is a coup is simply a very, very long stretch.

[iangb]

103. Not a coup?

def. "{Coup d'<'e>tat} (k??" d?-t?") (Politics), a sudden,
decisive exercise of power whereby the existing government
is subverted without the consent of the people; an
unexpected measure of state, more or less violent; a
stroke of policy."

If it looks like a.....and quacks like a .......it's a coup.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

111. Uh, excuse me . . . do you think this "coup" thing is mainstream theory?

Try standing on a street corner telling people that a coup is underway and see what they do. I'm guessing you'll find that you stand in a very, very, very small minority.

[Lars39]

114. Try reading some European newspapers. They're familiar with fascists.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

118. Fascists? What on earth are you talking about?

I thought we were talking about a coup?

[Trek234]

128. A coup by fascists

Hmmm the fact that you couldn't relate Bush -> fascist with out being told says something...

[whoYaCallinAlib]

138. Oh really . . . what does it say?

Please tell me. Oh gee. I just figured it out. If I don't call Bush a fascist, that tells you that I'm no good. I have called him an asshole, a piece of shit, the worst president in our history, and a lot more. But if I don't call him a fascist, then I'm just stupid. So, what does it tell you oh brilliant one who can see into my mind?

[Trek234]

140. Nice try

I'd tell you, but as you know it would be against the rules.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

144. Go Ahead And Tell Him

When the coup begins Bush is going to turn us lefties into soap and lampshades anyway.

This might be your last chance to vent.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

146. Tell you what. I give you my permission to blast away.

I've never been to a mind-reader before. This will be interesting. Please tell me what not calling Bush a fascist tells you.

[Lars39]

149. Trek, we really need to stop feeding 'em.

It's unmistakable, though.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

154. I See -You Two Are A Team

Like Marx and Engels

or maybe James Mill and John Stuart Mill.

You guys take this board way too serious or not serious enough.

ROTLMFAO

[Trek234]

160. It's REALLY obvious

who the "team" here is. About the same post count and working in tandem. I would not be surprised if you and WYCAL were one in the same.

Ignore time.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

163. That's Not Very Liberal To Shut Out Dissenting Views

or are you just practicing so you will be in tune with the new regime.

[rman]

190. not shutting out; disagree with

So some people think US govt is not becoming ever more fascist. some people think a coup and fascism are mutually exclusive. Fine.
It may not be mainstream theory on the street, but then again we know how well informed the general public is (about half of them think WMDs have already been found). The number of supporters of a theory does not say anything about the theory being correct or not; most theories start out with very few supporters.
Either way, many if not most here on DU would agree the US government is fascist, that a coup is in progress, and that this purging of relatively moderate military brass is part of that coup.
But that is not the same as "shutting out dissenting views".

[whoYaCallinAlib]

156. Hey, you two . . . Trek and Lars . . . I was just kidding with you.

Anybody can see that a coup is taking place. I'm really worried about it. Thanks for letting me play devil's advocate with you.

[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Trek234]

120. For the love of god

No one said a coup is under way RIGHT NOW or that this in and of its self is a coup.

It simply COULD be an act to prepare for one.

[jfippse]

84. Deep End

We may go over the deep end at times, but the reality is that George W. Bush and his henchmen might be capable of some how suspending the US Constitution and establishing a dictatorship in the mold of that which was established in Nazi Germany in the l930's. In order to forstall that possibility, a regime change in 2004 is a necessity if we are to survive as a respected nation of the world.

[sattahipdeep]

153. Harvard to Post Nuremberg Trial Documents

More than 6,700 pages of material from one of the trials, which
involved 23 defendants accused of doing harmful or fatal medical
experiments on humans, already have been posted.

The documents relate to the 13 trials of accused World War II German
war criminals in Nuremberg, Germany.
The trials opened in late 1945 and continued until 1949.

[Clete]

17. This is the second stage of the coup.

The first was stealing the election.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

24. Agree, repukes stole the election.

Now what does that have to do with Rummy changing the way the military fights wars. And replacing the people at the top with generals who share his new thinking? That happens every day in the real world. If a manager working for me didn't agree with the way I want to run my company, I get a new manager who does.

[Lars39]

27. This is the 2nd bunch of high rankers(read: lifers) that have either left

or been shoved out. Comparing the military and how it should be run like a business sounds like Republican talking points.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

124. Republican talking points? How clever.

Sure, I called Rove this morning and told him that some people here at DU were gonna look at some changes in the military brass and read that a "coup" was taking place. Then Rove told me to say that I would run the military the same way I run my business. But he told me not to tell anyone that he gave me these "republican talking points". So you must be very smart to have caught me. How did you figure it out? I thought I had everyone fooled. But, obviously, you are a very, very clever person.

[Lars39]

137. Republicans want to privatize everything, including parts of the military.

You seem to like the idea of the military being run as a business. I think I can be forgiven for my conclusion, especially given some of your other responses.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

142. So, let's recap.

I've concluded that there is no evidence that a coup is taking place.

I've concluded that the turnover of the top brass is nothing unusual and nothing to be concerned about.

I've concluded that Rummy is changing his management team and replacing older line generals with others that share his views of the new military.

Now, if this makes me a dumb, uninformed, and naive . . . so be it. But, somehow I think my views are very mainstream.

[IkeWarnedUs]

199. dumb, uninformed, and naive

Yup, sounds like mainstream America to me.

After I read about the generals getting fired I sat down with my husband to talk about leaving the country. He said if Bush retains the White House in 2004 - because he wins, is appointed or cancels the elections all together - he agrees we should go to Canada.

I think November 2004 may be too late.

[punpirate]

110. Except...

... this is not a company, and we're not talking about making widgets.

Rummy has already dictated terms for how the military is to be run, and the results are out there in Iraq right now--no exit plan, few supplies, insufficient food and water, and a hostile populace intent on driving the troops out. All that is a reflection of the degree of planning Rummy allowed. The generals leaving are those who _didn't_ want that to happen.

Moreover, reshaping the existing force, in Rummy's plan, is downright dangerous--for us, and for the troops. Rummy envisions being able to fight wars at a moment's notice, around the world, and with the existing force, that's dangerous, politically, economically and diplomatically. He would also like to remove all the military in the Pentagon, then privatize the DoD with corporate consultants, presumably who will do whatever he wants.

Rummy's no military genius--he's already proven that (what might have happened in Iraq if he had prevailed, and gone in with a force of 70,000?).

I have some real problems with Pentagon planning, myself--there's waste, for sure, and too much dependency on the latest whiz-bang gadget at horrible cost, whether that weapon addresses a need or not. But, Rummy wants to run the military like a corporation, with him the CEO (because that's all he knows), and that's a prescription for disaster.

Cheers.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

125. You may be right that it it's a prescription for disaster.

On the other hand, I don't know that he's not modernizing our military for the better. I don't pretend to be a military expert. The jury is still out as far as I am concerned.

[punpirate]

164. And, on the other hand...

... you were quite willing to make the association between managing a company and running the military, to defend what is being done now by Rumsfeld, of which you now say you know nothing. The jury is still out, in your mind, because you'd rather give the benefit of the doubt to a raving, autocratic, ideology-driven maniac like Rumsfeld who has no more military experience than three years as a jet jockey and never had a command of his own, and now believes, after ascending the ladder in the corporate world and doing essential cuddling up to Hussein for the Reagan administration, that he is the Bush equivalent of Alexander the Great.... Yeah, right.

Rumsfeld is McNamara on a steady diet of San Francisco speedballs with a little acid on the side on weekends....

Defend crazy right-wing fucks as you will. It only helps to prove the original poster's premise.

Cheers.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

167. Who is defending him?

The association between the military and business is that when a new guy takes over in either one, he usually makes wholesale changes in his management team. He wants people who share his philosophies so to speak. That is not saying Rummy is doing a good job is it?

When it comes to judging whether the military is doing a good job or a bad job, I'm not qualified to make that judgment. Oh, like everyone else, I can say the post-war planning was incompetent. But that is about it. Now, that is not saying Rummy is doing a good job is it?

Okay, so where exactly did I "defend" right-wing fucks?

[punpirate]

173. Your comment:

"On the other hand, I don't know that he's not modernizing our military for the better. I don't pretend to be a military expert. The jury is still out as far as I am concerned."

Is that a defense, or is it just weaseling around your previous remarks?

If you don't know, why the hell are you making a point in favor of Rumsfeld by giving him the benefit of the doubt about something of which you admittedly know nothing? Why are you remarking on it _at all_, if you know nothing about the military?

Jasus, the sophistry in this is getting thick as Bush relatives at a picnic in Kennebunkport.

Your comment: "like everyone else, I can say the post-war planning was incompetent. But that is about it. Now, that is not saying Rummy is doing a good job is it?"

But, you didn't say that originally, and you now say, "I can say...." You never _did_ say, and then you qualify your remark by, "But that's about it." As if that's all Rumsfeld _might_ have done wrong.

Give me a break, agent provocateur.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

181. Okay, you get a break . . .

You can twist my words all you want and you still can't find one place where I've defended Rummy. Not a single place. Not one. I don't know if he had a good war plan or not. I know he had a bad post-war plan. That's about all I can say about Rummy. Giving Rummy the benefit of the doubt disagrees with you apparently. That's not my problem. Maybe you are a military expert and feel comfortable showing your expertise to this board. Maybe the Pentagon calls you for advice on military matters. Our military program is highly complex. Far too complex for me, a CPA with an MBA, to be able to discuss with any degree of knowledge. I don't pretend to be as well versed on military capability as you apparently think you are. You probably went to West Point. Apparently you are or at one time were a higly placed officer in the Pentagon and can commment with credibility on Rummy's qualifications. Good for you. Now give me a break.

[PurityOfEssence]

143. Why do you believe Rumsfeld?

He SAYS they're not tactically in tune, but why do you believe him? This is not a trustworthy person. Do not give them the benefit of the doubt.

You have a logical fallacy at the heart of your reasoning, namely that their stated reason is their real reason.

[Vitruvius]

194. Yup--Rummy wants to change the way we fight wars --

he wanted to go into Iraq with 30,000 men.

If we'd done that, they would have lost, been captured, and paraded thru downtown Baghdad in dunce caps.

Now Rummy's firing many of the professional military men who were RIGHT -- because they told him what he didn't want to hear; that we'd need 250,000 to win, and perhaps double that to occupy Iraq after.

For more, see Salon's excellent interview with David Hackworth: http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/08/04/hackworth/index.html

Vitruvius

P.S: Rummy's new way of fighting wars is called "losing" or "stepping into a quagmire and then losing". The man is an incompetent.

[knight_of_the_star]

155. No

The second stage was the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. This is just the cleanup of the second stage, he used those attacks to determine who in the officer corps was loyal to him and his ideas and who was loyal to America.

[Lostnote03]

19. Mixed Bag???

.....Having just heard about this today I will wait to see the military response to this....I tend to believe that the military will not follow along with Rummys "cool" ideas any longer....I have a sneaky suspicion that the political timing of this could not be in Rummy/Bushs favor....Hopefully the military will allign themselves with the CIAs modus operendi and begin leaking like a bottomless bucket wrt 911/Afghanistan/Iraq....My guess is that Daniel Ellsbergs premonition may be due to arrive....

[DagmarK]

23. Step one was the creation of Homeland Security........

And bunching in the DoD with all those other agencies.....and making congressional oversight practically NIL!

Step 2 -- the Pentagon creating its own intelligence agency (OSB) and ditching the CIA pretty much.

And Step 3:

"The list of retirees was, sources say, drawn up in discussions between Rumsfeld, Schoomaker and Keane. Most of those going are being axed not for personal failings but to open up job slots that are viewed as key to Army transformation. But Pentagon spokesman Larry DiRita said any suggestion the moves were at Rumsfeld’s behest was “utter nonsense.”"

*****key to army transformation. Yeppers.

So.........Trek.....what the hell do we do. I have no doubt that this is the case......... they will create a police state. But I don't think it will be over the election. They will know the election prospects before Nov. 2004, and I have no doubt in my mind that they would create a DISASTER to justify installing a police state. The blueprint for the police state is the RED ALERT status.

And I am sure they have all the details worked out on how to implement the red alert police state.

[cthrumatrix]

32. I always thought Homeland Security was to be used AGAINST us when

we saw the crap that was going on...the lies being told...the deception.

They started by taking away "our civil liberties"....for the day they need to be careful of the people they supposedly represent...but they knew that.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. You Guys Are Beginning To Scare Me

Martial Law

Coup de tat

Concentration Camps.


I just don't see it.

[Lars39]

33. Go read some Homeland Security info and Patriot Act; get informed. eom

[DemocratSinceBirth]

43. I have Read Them

I missed the part about suspending habeas corpus for all Americans and elections too.

[Lars39]

47. "Things would be a heck of a lot easier if I was a dictator." GW Bush

The ability for him to totally suspend our rights, and elections are couched in the Patriot Act.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

67. Reagan Said He Was Going To Bomb The Russians In Five Minutes

Last time I looked it was still there.

[webtrainer]

133. Reagan didn't say it at least three times . . .

http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?ChannelID=96

George W. Bush has stated he'd prefer to be a dictator at least three times, according to BuzzFlash.com:

"You don't get everything you want. A dictatorship would be a lot easier." Describing what it's like to be governor of Texas.(Governing Magazine 7/98)
-- From Paul Begala's "Is Our Children Learning?"

"I told all four that there are going to be some times where we don't agree with each other, but that's OK. If this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator," Bush joked.
-- CNN.com, December 18, 2000

"A dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier, there's no question about it, " said.
-- Business Week, July 30, 2001

[Trek234]

92. Then read the constituion for god sakes

"I missed the part about suspending habeas corpus"

You just lost ALL authority to speak on this matter.

From the bloody constitution its self

"the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, except in cases of rebellion or invasion when the public safety may require it"

Any school kid should have read this.

It's really sad when americans don't even know what there own constitution says.... This is EXACTLY why Bush could become a dictator. Most americans don't even know the damn constitution says.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lars39]

99. Personal attacks aren't allowed.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

105. It was A Retalitory Attack

After all ,we DUers better toughen up if we're going to confront this fascist junta.

Don't you think

[Lars39]

108. Um, no, it was not retaliatory. You think nobody else would know what

the Baker Act is?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

141. Um No

Your comrade made an ad hominen attack on me and I responded in kind.

I'm not the pacific type. I subscribe to Malcom's philosophy. Treat people with respect but if they attack you respond by any means necesssary.

Hey- if there's going to be a coup wouldn't you rather have a disciple of Malcom X than a disciple of say, Ralph Nader on your side.

[Lars39]

148. Post 92 doesn't contain ad hominen, but your post does.

I shouldn't be feeding you. Good night and au revoir!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

157. I should have known you were French

and don't let the door hit ya where the dog should have bit ya.

<kisses>

[Forkboy]

169. "I should have known you were French"

Says it all about you DSB.

[Trek234]

170. Republicans hate the french

Wouldn't go along with Iraq don't ya know. Freedom fries away!

[Forkboy]

171. Well I'm sure it was just a slip of the tongue

I mean,a DemocratSinceBirth would never be a mole or anything.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

174. I see I Have Interrupted A Sewing Circle

I violated the rules of political correctness.

I'm not the great liberal that Forkboy, trek90210, and Lars69 are

Consign me to the Freepers Board or a night of hot sweaty monkey sex with Ann Coulter.

You boys take this site way too serious or not serious enough

<kisses>

[DemocratSinceBirth]

175. I'm Outed

I'm a freeper in drag. In fact I'm typing on my laptop while I am being kneaded by Ann Coulter, Laura Ingraham, and Michelle Malkin


A guy's got to get his bones somehow.


lol@me

[Forkboy]

178. Sounds like you have the fantasies all lined and ready to go

[bitchkitty]

176. We DUers?

I'm not accusing you of anything, that would be against the rules. However, I've been visiting political message boards for a few years, and have gotten pretty good at judging sincerity. Something about you comes across as very false.

Again, I'm not accusing you of anything. But I am questioning your motives.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

179. When you

point a finger at someone you have four fingers pointed back at yourself.

I have noticed that every board has it own invectives.

At a sports board when someone doesn't like you they question your sexuality.

At this board if someone doesn't like you they question your political identification.

Pathetic.....

[bitchkitty]

201. Hey, I'm not pointing fingers.

I'm just telling you what the perception is. If you're not a disruptor, then I'm very sorry. If you are, then you're one of the best I've seen as far as subtlety goes. So you can either take it as a compliment, or you can take it to heart and start examining your motives.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

202. I am almost embarrassed to do this but my hand was forced

My mother was a Stevenson delegate in 1952. She walked precints in Queens, New York for John Kennedy in 1960. My mother took me to the front of a rope line in 1965 when I was seven years old to shake Bobby Kennedy's hand. I was a Kennedy delegate to the 1980 Democratic election. An autographed picture of Bill Clinton thanking me for my contributions to him and the party hangs in my study next to a autographed picture of Muhummad Ali that my mom got for me when she met him at the Federal Building in Orlando in 1987. An autographed picture of Bobby Kennedy sits on my dresser drawers. I met Al, Joe, and Tipper during the 00 campaign.

I think I have established my Democratic bona fides or do they only come when I reach my one thousandth post.

How did this altercation start? I questioned the validity of the "coup theory" and when I questioned it one of the posters went all "pedantic" on me. Implying I had the knowledge of a schoolboy and was ignorant of the Constitution. Well, I defended myself. And then his clique or posse came to his rescue.

The rest as they say is history.

[bitchkitty]

204. My apologies -

If you've been on this board for any length of time, you have to know that disruptors are a real problem. Sometimes you can't be sure who to trust. Sorry.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

206. It's O K

I went overboard....

Too much tetosterone.

The bane of civilived behavior.

We need to be reminded how far we are really removed from the law of the jungle.

Peace.

[Trek234]

107. A little upset

that it is now public knowledge that you don't even know what the constitution says, eh?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

123. "A little upset"

that is now public knowledge that you are a candidate for the Baker Act.

Don't fret. I think they can only keep you for observation.

Tell them someone logged onto your computer.

[waggawagga]

117. The US is coup proof

If Bush somehow declared a state of emergency how could he get the states in line? (which, remember, have national guards and police forces). He couldn't. In the wildest scenario the states would declare a constitutional convention, adopt an amendment which allowed them to impeach the president, and would get rid of Bush that way. In order for a president to take power you have to imagine real shooting and a protracted civil war.

[Lars39]

122. Interesting handle ya got there. Story behind it?

[waggawagga]

213. Hi, I'm New

Wagga Wagga is my adopted hometown in New South Wales, Australia (but I'm an American).

[Trek234]

145. You are totally right

There are tons of arguments as to why a coup couldn't happen, but they can easily be void if the situation in the US was a certain way.

[Brian Sweat]

205. Donning Tinfoil Hat

No country is coup proof. Bush controls the military, the FBI, the CIA and homeland security. He also has a majority of state governors and legislatures in the control of the Republican party.

IF he wanted to stage a coup, the first thing he would do is have all high ranking government officials who were not part of the coup arrested. This would include members of congress, Governors and state legistlators. After the first couple of hours of the coup, there would not be enough official opposition to the coup left to hold a constitutional kegger.

We have already seen the use of Homeland Security to track the Texas legislators.

Doffing Tinfoil Hat.

[waggawagga]

214. This is Like a Tom Clancy Novel in Reverse

I'll play along. Let's assume for the sake of argument that Bush wants to take power in a coup. First, he couldn't sound out people in advance because once rumors spread that would probably be enough to bring the whole scheme crashing down (there's just no way for someone to ask tactfully, "psst, if we ordered troops into the streets would you play along?").

Second, most of the Republican party wouldn't go along. They'd realize that if a coup was successful their reputations would be destroyed and they'd be sidelined. Senators and congressmen, let's face it, have a pretty good deal. They get a lot of respect and for most it's a lifetime office. What do they get out of it? (and that's if I start from a place of cynicism and assume that they aren't patriotic).

Same is true for Republican governors and state legislators, of course. It's just a given that no matter what the circumstances were a coup would be deeply unpopular throughout the country (anyone who signed on could forget about ever winning another election).

Then you have the US military. We don't live in a country where soldiers take oaths to "der fuhrer". You have to suspend your belief in reality to think that even if the top brass issued the orders that enough officers (even the most senior officers) would go along. Again, forget patriotism (though that's a leap). US law forbids the military from taking any role in domestic...anything.

Obeying such an order would be treason. If such a coup failed those who followed such orders would have no cover. If it succeded what would these officers get? Coups succeed in societies where a winner can hand off power to those who help him. What would Bush do, make a general the Duke of North Dakota? And the moment any civilian authority reasserts power the charge of treason stands.

Then you have the problem of junior officers and common soldiers. The US army just isn't that ideological. Most people who join do so for the benefits. Do you really think they'd get involved in this? And to the point where they'd actually shoot other soldiers and civilians? You have to be kidding.

Then you have the fact that American cities would explode and the White House would have no means of restablishing order. In the US you can't just take over one tv station. The stock market, of course, would collapse.

It's a nutty scenario (and if you credit the Bush administration with any intelligence, and that's if you assume the most malevolent motives, they'd never do it because, really, what would be the payoff? the most cynical interpretation of American politics is that democracy is what allows the "powers that be" to pull the strings, that would all be gone).

[iangb]

212. "Coup Proof"?....Bollocks.

The President's Emergency Powers are almost limitless.

HE alone can declare an emergency (He's already done that).

HE alone can send the country to war (He's already done that).

HE alone can declare an election as "not being in the best interests of National Security".......(He'll probably do that).

Congress have voted themselves out of the picture.

[knight_of_the_star]

162. He can find a way around that

"the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, except in cases of rebellion or invasion when the public safety may require it"

He could declare a police state situation and order that the civilian courts be shut down and martial law implemented for "the safety of the American people" and that would do it. Ex Parte Milligan ruled that Habeus Corpus could only be suspended if the civilian courts in the area are not functioning. If they are shut down due to martial law, that would not allow them to function, thus he could suspend Habeus Corpus. That and there is the possibility that people might rebel against that and thus give him the justification he needs. That and once he declares martial law he could simply ignore the constitution.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

38. I'm with you.

I'm very, very unconvinced.

[DieboldMustDie]

66. We've already had the coup d'état...

We called it the 2000 election.

[DagmarK]

82. DemSinceBirth: Did you know that there ARE concentration camps

In this country RIGHT NOW???

I don't have the link.....I am sure others do. But there are these SECRET places out in the middle of no where......all fenced..with guard towers and nothing going on there. NO people, nothing.

the federal govt just decided to build a bunch of concentration camps. No reason in the world. Nothing to see here..move along.

[iangb]

89. You'd better do.....

.....some reading. Brush up on the Presidents Emergency Powers (which he's already invoked).

Doesn't need an election, doesn't need the Congress to declare matial law.....he can do ANYTHING!

For comparison: From an aricle on Hitler's rise to power.....

<snip> Unfortunately, the constitution also contained several fatal flaws. One of the worst was Article 48 of the constitution, which granted dictatorial powers to the president in times of national emergency. Unfortunately, the president would frequently evoke this clause, and it ultimately proved the downfall of the Republic.

more...... http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-hitlerdemo.htm

[Walt Starr]

31. The final sign will be a "terrorist attack" on the internet

shutting down all traffic. DU will disappear.

When it comes back up, it will never again be the internet as we know it, although the internet will be quite different in the rest of the world.....

[Trek234]

46. Why the internet?

Interesting you bring it up though as there have been storys at tech sites I visit popping up today about Homeland Security fearing a devastating net attack.

I don't think it's anything to worry about though.

Technically it would be damn near impossible to limit/change the internet for those in the US even with MASSIVE cooperation all across the nation.

[Walt Starr]

68. The internet is the free exchange of ideas

For a coup to succeed in the United States, the freeflow of ideas must be stopped, almost immediately. Look at the architect of the internet and you will know, the base nameservers control it all and there are very few of those. Althought there are plans to upgrade this architecture, the last I knew control ofg 12 nameservers would result in total control of the internet.

If you control name resoultion of IP addresses across the globe, it's over. You can shut it all down immediately and guarantee that only those sites you want will come back.

Free Republic will be back. DU will not. and it will all be blamed on a "terrorist attack".

If this does not happen, there can be no coup in the United States.

[Resistance Is Futile]

77. Internet DNS

Collapsing the DNS infrastructure will not halt packet routing. Even if the root servers were eliminated it would still be possible to access sites by IP address. For instance, DU is currently at http://216.158.54.197 . This address will work even if the entire DNS system is gone.

Further, a total loss of the root servers would eventually result in some organization elsewhere in the world creating an alternate DNS root. The Europeans, Japanese, Koreans and the Chinese could all do this if they needed or wanted to.

While the DNS system is a weakpoint, the only way to completely shut down the Internet would be to create some kind of national firewall, such as the one that the Chinese operate. This would take time, effort and the subersion of a lot of ISPs to implement. It's doable, but probably couldn't be done in a single crystalnacht.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

86. I Forgot About Crystalnacht

Except this time the Pukes will go ape shit on West Hollywood


LOL

[Walt Starr]

87. The confusion caused by the DNS root being lost

would result in most people not being able to get to sites, like this. This confusion would give those who would take over the country time to put other plans in place.

If Carnivore or something similar is actually out there, the infrastructure necessary to completely take all control of all routing from the U.S. is in place and could be utilized within two weeks. For Carnivore to actually work as advertised, it would have to be present at all peering points. That's the access necessary to do it all.

I'm not saying it will be done, but the weakness in DNS could be exploited and put to work in such a case. I must admit, though, to fully do something like this will require access to all peering points within the telecommunications infrastructure. If it's not there, then that may well have been the plans for the system proposed by the TIA.

It's a stretch, but I seriously cannot see a coup being successful without control of the internet traffic both inside the country and flowing in and out of the country. Too many people would be able to utilize it for free information flow.

[German-Lefty]

184. How they could take down the net.

Ok, if the government could use an excuse like security to take a scorched earth policy toward the net, they could probably just hit the back bones and control points which they helped finance and which are easy to locate. Just start cutting fiber and taking out routers. Sure IP routing is resilent, but then just flood the network with junk packets. It's not like ISPs can shut the government down for doing that. In the end connections may be so bad that not enough gets through to surf.

If you guys are interested, here's a project some people are working on that will try to guarentee free (annoymous) speach on the net. I'll probably do a post on it under communications/media sometime. Please check it out.

http://www.freenetproject.org

[DemocratSinceBirth]

63. Will We Still Be Able To Get Porn

If I'm a dictator I leave the porn. This will help to keep the masses quiescent.

[salin]

35. While I don't see it as a coup... in these odd times, not a bad idea

to brainstorm some of the crazy realities of what MIGHT be going on. Heck a year ago the crazy brainstorming is probably the only place one would see speculation about the level of book-cookng the Pentagon was doing on intelligence - or that Rummy set up an extra (and new) intelligence arm and would cut off other branches of intel - so the new group could skew data...

OR

Two years ago tin foilish speculation about whether cali was having a real energy crisis or a manipulated one - and HOW (let alone the degree to which) companies were manipulating the market to do so - might have been the only place to start thinking in those ways.

------
My point is, while I tend not to be tin-foily. And I don't yet think this is what it is about. Reading some of these thoughts aren't a bad thing... as further news unfolds in the next 4, 8, 12, 24 etc months these thoughts might make sense or make no sense (in which case they will be forgotten). If they make sense, it gives the researchers around here a place to potentially dig for information to try to get a bigger picture.

Guess that is my way of saying that in these extremely strange and exceptional times - subscribe to it or not (I tend not to) - tin-foil speculation does seem to have its place.

[salin]

37. oops my above post should have been linked to post #7

not to the originating post. sorry for any confusion.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

39. Apology accepted.

Just kidding. I figured it out.

[salin]

62. oh a wise guy

:D You and alaine just gave me the chuckles that I have needed tonight.

[alaine]

58. No, No, No!

We must accept abslolutely everything at face value. No questioning, pondering, analyzing allowed. It's bad for you. God can see you doing it. If you do it too much, you'll go blind.

[salin]

61. Not sure why

but in my current state of fatigue... I found this response... particularly amusing. Thanks - I needed the giggle.

[DagmarK]

41. Army transformation is happening concurrently with Patriot II efforts.....

See the thread in GD about Ashcroft pushing for Patriot II:

(I didn't copy the link right...sorry! And I am now in this thread.....ugh!)

I was really surprised last night when I learned that Ashcroft was showing up on all these Sunday political talk shows. There are no pressing issues re the DOJ right now. And up he pops to make the talking points rounds. From out of no where.

In fact, the only business Ashcroft had this week concerns the House trimming his search powers. No one has a prob with that except him. So......he is going to bat for more...

[duid12]

45. nutty..

Geez, I like hanging around here...and share a lot of the same ideas as people here..but this is just plain loony tunes...this is the EXACT same thing the right wing fanatics were saying about Clinton during the last few months of his term...and especially after the "botched" election...Clinton wouldn't leave, he'd declare martial law etc etc...sounded looney then...sounds loony now. Clinton didn't, as much as he was hated by the right, and Bush won't either, as much as he is hated by the left....BUT if you really, really beleive this is possible by this or any other administration now or in the future, you should all be HUGE supporters of the individual right to bear arms.

[Lars39]

48. Clinton didn't have the full power of the Patriot Act behind him, though.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

53. Can You Show Us In The Patriot Act

where there's a provision for martial law;the replacement of civil administration by military administration.

And given the fact that the military is 30% black and brown I don't see it going down very well.

Microsoft, General Electric, Wal-Mart just want to make money. In the fianl analysis they wouldn't care if Al Sharpton was president.

Wild in the street isn't going to go down to well with them.

[DagmarK]

70. DemSinceBirth.......here's some answers for you......

The US military implements martial law. 'Course they need local help.....and that's where the Patriot Act comes in. The Patriot Act forces local and state law enforcement to fully comply with whatever the hell the feds say. For now..it has been an edict to give the feds info that historically has NEVER been allowed for the states to give to the feds. But under martial law (red alert), the feds automatically become THE law enforcement.

The Patriot Act is also the facilitator (for the military) to obtain information on everything having to do with our lives.

I can understand the folks in this thread saying "oh come on guys.....this is wayyyyyyy out in the galaxy, even for you duers, but I am afraid that you guys don't really grasp what the hell we have all been yelling about for all these months. There IS a reason to be fearful of our govt.

Check out this side-by-side comparison of Hitler Germany and the USA under Bush. Called, the Nazification of America: http://www.hermes-press.com/nazification_step3.htm

If it can happen ONCE in history.....it can (and most likely will) happen TWICE. These goons in the WH are following Hitler's playbook......to a T.

[Lars39]

Happy reading!!!

http://truthout.com/docs_02/04.02A.JVB.Patriot.htm

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/2002/12/05_Fascism.html

http://www.chutneystar.com/friday/june06-03/column04.htm

[Trek234]

85. There is already law

on the books to allow the president to take full control and suspend the constitution in the event of national emergency.

"And given the fact that the military is 30% black and brown I don't see it going down very well."

Please drop the racism. Black and brown people behave NO differently than white people in the same situation. Unless you want to argue there is some inherent difference in race to support such a thing?

Reminds me of the Klan and other haters saying blacks should be in segregated units because they would not follow orders like whites would - a long with a host of other BS.

And yes I can show you law regarding suspending the contitution

From the constitution "the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, except in cases of rebellion or invasion when the public safety may require it"

Also read Senate Report 93-549 which speaks of the ability to suspend the constitution.

Note the president can suspend the contitution through executive order. Note FEMA also has this ability.

Also, do read the the National Emergencies Act along with the Homeland and Patriot Acts. These acts, a long with several others, provide for various suspensions of constitutional rights.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

91. Two Points

I don't see how it makes me racist to posit that the victims of a right wing coup (minorities) would be more likely to resist than it's beneficiaries.

Also, you would need a national emergency to impose martial law as the emergency is the predicate.



I don't see this national emergency.

[Lars39]

94. Still haven't read the links, huh? eom

[Trek234]

101. Well

"I don't see how it makes me racist to posit that the victims of a right wing coup (minorities) would be more likely to resist than it's beneficiaries."

Unlike Hitler, Bush isn't hell bent on destroying minorities. (well, I'm sure he wouldn't mind gays going away)

There is NO reason to believe should Bush take part in a coup he would begin to victimize minorities - specifically black people and brown people as you stated. What is your basis for this?

"I don't see this national emergency."

That doesn't mean one won't appear...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

112. If Bush Was To Suspend The Constitution

it would be to protect the class he serves. Last time I checked most African American and Latino folks were not part of the class he served.

I think in Nazi Germany, the monied classes were more or less quiescent as Hitler was serving their interest as he was their tool.

[Trek234]

115. More racism

Yes, because the majority of white people are inherently in the same economic upper-upper class as Bush (yea right) while African and Latino americans are the mostly in the middle-lower class.

Most white people are NOT in the Bush economic class. Same for all races. Try again.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

126. If Pointing Out That Blacks And Browns

are more likely to resist Buschco's putsch than I am a racist.

Will I have a higher or lower status in Bush's New World order.

[Lars39]

116. Most white people aren't in the class he serves, either.

Yet you keep harping on the minorities. Bush isn't good for Humanity.

[Trek234]

54. TOTALLY different

When was the last time you saw a liberal/moderate become a dictator?

When was the last time you saw a radical right winger become a dictator?

[whoYaCallinAlib]

102. Thank you duid12. I was beginning to think I was the only one . . .

. . . who thinks the freeper lurkers reading this thread are laughing their butts off at us. This is beyond nutty. It's truly scary that when the military does something very normal in turning over 20% to 30% of their top management, people on this board think that this is the beginning stages of a coup. Calm down. I guarantee there will be no coup.

[DagmarK]

119. Oh, I feel so much better, when "Who You Callin a Liberal" tells me:

"Calm down. I guarantee there will be no coup."

**we really need to ask DU to change the program to NOT give post counts to lounge posts across the board. I am sick to death of trolls coming to DU, getting up their post counts in the Lounge and then coming in for the kill in GD, et al. when they have attained 100 or more posts.

Oh, whoyacallinalib......I am not referring to you....that would be against DU rules. I just went off on some tangent,.....can't explain it.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

129. I'm being sarcastic. My guarantee is just as nutty as this coup theory.

My point is that people are getting worked up over nothing. And what is this troll stuff you're talking about? Can you please be more specific?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

150. Something About This Board Trips Me Out

the proprietary attitude that some "senior" posters have.

Is there a positive correlation between the number of posts and wisdom.

Is someone with eight hundred posts superior to someone with seven hundred ninety nine posts?

Penis Envy has been replaced by Post Envy.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

158. I couldn't agree more. You don't get smart until you have 1000 posts.

I always feel stupid when someone with a higher post count points out my idiocy.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

166. I Have To Defer To You

You have more posts than me.


Memo to Me:

Get up your post count.

[Melinda]

50. Jayzus H Keerist in a handbasket -- for those who "Don't Get It"

You need to bone up -- start with Kristol/Rummy/Cheney/Perle's "Rebuilding America's Defenses" (download link below), the massive restructuring of our military so we can better take over the world report issued by the very neo-con's now in control of OUR govt; the lovely folks at Policy For the New American Century, aka PNAC

PDF d/l

This realignment of the military is part and parcel of the plan -- read it for yourselves and then come back and tell Trek and those of us that think like him that we are "paranoid".

[Lars39]

57. Thanks.

We seem to have pair working in tandem right now. :eyes:

[truth2power]

209. Lars? Trek?

Why are you feeding them? :shrug:

[truth2power]

210. Lars? Trek?

Why are you feeding them? :shrug:

edit> Don't know why it posted twice.

Mods: Can you delete this one??

[whoYaCallinAlib]

106. Okay, you are paranoid.

Rummy definately is reshaping the military. He wants a fast and furious military that relies more on technology than sheer numbers of soldiers. It is no secret that he is making major changes in the military including weaponry and tactics. He is replacing some of the "old line" generals with people who are more receptive to his new way of thinking. I'm not a military person so I don't know whether what he is doing is good or bad for our country.

But where I part ways with the "coup" people on this thread is that nothing I've seen, heard, or read gives the slightest appearance of a coup.

Now, you don't have to agree with me. And I don't expect you to. But please. Every day on this board, 20 people come up with a new boogie man for us to worry about.

[Lars39]

113. Yeah, fast and furious, less soldiers is one reason so many are DYING.

Rumsfeld is an incompetant.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

130. Now, that I agree with. Rummy's post-war planning is nothing

short of disasterous.

[Lars39]

131. His prewar planning left a lot to be desired, too.

He overrode the Pentagon folks for less troops going in than was safe.
That is why so many are getting killed.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

136. You may be right. I don't know. I'm no military expert and I am

unqualified to judge how good his pre-war planning was or was not.

[DagmarK]

127. Yeah, Rummy is streamlining the military. Does he seem SANE TO YOU?

Does Rummy actually strike you as a guy who has all oars in the water?

He's a nut...and if you think he's some masterful military man.....then you need to reveal yourself as "with the program" now....

[whoYaCallinAlib]

134. It is common knowledge that Rummy is trying to "modernize" the

military. Now, I'm not sure how you got from that point to this "masterful military man" question. As I said, I don't know about the military. I merely said this whole situation with turnover with the top brass does not in any way strike me as a precursor for a coup. Now, if you think that my thinking is "radical", then okay, call me a radical. I never, ever, not once, not a single time, said Rummy was a good military guy or even an average military guy. I have said his post-war planning was horrible. So, I just don't understand your antagonistic attitude towards me. If you want me to, if it will make you feel better, I'll say that "a coup is underway"! Would that make me a "better" democrat. If I buy into this coup stuff, will you like me?

[mix68]

56. a Gramscian crisis

give the historical circumstances these types of purges within the military are common and expected

there are two factors at work here that make this a period of crisis, in which the old is dying and the new cannot be born, to paraphrase the Italian communist

1) the end of the Cold War
2) post-9/11; war on terror

these transformations have been nothing short of cataclysmic, yet it is not clear where we're going,

this purge is a symptom of this crisis, not a sign of an imminent coup

the bush doctrine, as bankrupt as it is both intellectually and geo-politically, requires new strategic mindset (or so they say)

at the end of the day though it's probably nothing more than rumsfeld wanting yes men around him

to confirm his 'genius'

[ewagner]

59. Simpler explanation?

Could it be that Rummy has the power to replace those who disagree with him and is executing that power to get his own troops in there so there won't be any bickering or arguing?

Not to say this is right but it is reminiscent of a corporate housecleaning after a new CEO comes to power.

Who remembers September 10, 2001? Remember one of the headlines of that day? It was: RUMSFELD DECLARES WAR..ON THE PENTAGON!

Sept 11 just distacted him....that's all.

Don't get too paranoid.

[DagmarK]

60. Okay, anyone think it strange for the DoD to put Certificates on Yahoo?

I wasn't going to post this in the open.....but I say to Rummy: SCREW YOU ASSHOLE!

Hey......something WEIRD came up when I was on DU on Saturday. I clicked on a thread yesterday. It was a yahoo story about some new Stryker Brigade vehicle they are going to employ in Iraq (because of the guerrilla warfare reality). So, basically, it was a story about Dept of Defense solutions to the problem.

But when I just merely OPENED the thread, I got a notice on my computer saying that the security certificate wasn't among the certificates that I had defaulted as trustworthy. So I get the details on the certificate.......and it's a Dept of Defense thing!! It creeped me out....... Is Rummy logged into DU????? Or is the link to that story on yahoo kind of like BAIT being used so the DoD can see WHO is looking at it???? I did not open the link to the story --- just merely opened the DU thread.

Does this cause you to raise an eyebrow? EEEK.


Cert info:

www.bctide.army.mil

Issued by DOD Class 3-CA-4

Valid from: 3/27/03 to 3/27/06
**

Version 3

Serial Number: 112D D2

Signature Algorithm: sha1RSA

Issuer: CN = DOD CLASS 3 CA-4
OU = PKI
OU = DoD
O = U.S. Government
C = US

Valid: Thursday, March 27, 2003 11:08:45 AM to Monday, March 27, 2006 11:08:45 AM

Subject: E = [e-mail]
OU = USA DoD
O = U.S. Government
C = US
CN = www.bctide.army.mil

Public Key: 3081 8902 8181 00FE 6AC0 6FC9 3440 A4CC 8AB9 6D7D 0086 3F9D 6123 7396 9B67 10BC 9E1D EEA7 445F 1B52 0354 6293 E046 A1EC CD90 9902 6435 532E 21C4 582F E9BE 4BDE B549 8B8D 47B1 633B C95A B99F 9971 1BAB 026A C526 C7C1 0F12 F5B8 087B CB1D 142C BD2A 90FB 4940 2D23 49C2 924D D9F1 C6F6 64C7 68CD D64B 8CD7 158C A06A 7AC1 76D8 CE26 A53E 14EB C502 0301 0001





Authority Key Identifier: KeyID=15A2 A335 DE71 3235 2FBF F1FD E755 D19F D8F6 2A5F

Subject Key Identifier 795F EE81 BCC3 CE5E 66C8 60DA 9BD0 586B CCF2 1BCC

<1>Certificate Policy:
PolicyIdentifier=2.16.840.1.101.2.1.11.5

Issuer Alternative Name: URL=ldap://ds-4.c3pki.den.disa.mil/cn%3dDOD%20CLASS%203%20CA-4%2cou%3dPKI%2cou%3dDoD%2co%3dU.S.%20Government%2cc%3dUS


URL=ldap://ds-4.c3pki.den.disa.mil/cn%3dDOD%20CLASS%203%20CA-4%2cou%3dPKI%2cou%3dDoD%2co%3dU.S.%20Government%2cc%3dUS

<1>CRL Distribution Point
Distribution Point Name:
Full Name:
URL=ldap://ds-4.c3pki.den.disa.mil/cn%3dDOD%20CLASS%203%20CA-4%2cou%3dPKI%2cou%3dDoD%2co%3dU.S.%20Government%2cc%3dUS?certificaterevocationlist;binary

Digital Signature , Key Encipherment(A0) -- Key Usage: Digital Signature , Key Encipherment(A0)


Thumbprint Algorithm: sha1

Thumbprint: EC64 412C F56B 7548 4A01 D222 20BD 5C39 424F D467

CERTIFICATION PATH:
“This certificate cannot be verified up to a trusted certification authority.”
DoD Class 3 Root CA-4
DoD Class 3 CA-4
(red x) www.bctide.army.mil



I had just clicked on this link about the new Stryker Brigade……. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=48801&mesg_id=48801


Put BCtide site in browser and got no site

1. BCT IDE - PM-BCT Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs)
... Download the request form (https://www.bctide.army.mil/dloadpagespublic/dloadspublic.shtml ), and follow its instructions - ensure that you email the completed ...
https://www.bctide.army.mil/faqs.shtml cached | more results from this site
2. Project Management Office Brigade Combat Team BCT/Stryker
... Have fun in what we do and pride in the services we provide. Contact Info N/A EMAIL: [e-mail] https://www.bctide.army.mil/. ...
www.peogcs.army.mil/brigade.cfm cached

Who We Are
We develop, produce, field and sustain a full range of safe, reliable, supportable and effective systems called Stryker, which will be the primary weapons platform during the Army's Transformation. The Stryker is a diverse fleet of medium weight vehicles capable of being rapidly deployed to trouble spots within the world. These vehicles leverage existing military "state of the art" technologies in order to provide world-class equipment to the soldier in record time.

What We Do
Develop the acquisition and program management framework to transform the Army to the Objective Force
Work closely with other PEOs, PMs and Commands to provide the best equipment to the Interim Brigade
Employ assigned resources (time, personnel, space, information systems and budget) in the most efficient manner to accomplish assigned tasks
Implement DoD guidance for acquisition reform & streamlining
Optimize development, acquisition, and logistics business processes
Understand and anticipate User needs and translate those needs into product specifications
Fulfill the Chief of Staff's vision by providing an Interim Force system during the Army Transformation
Foster the infrastructure necessary to provide ready, responsive, reliable and cost effective materiel development services to meet higher command and User community needs while exceeding their support expectations
Employ Modeling and Simulation where possible to conserve resources
Recruit, develop, train and retain a world-class workforce that is fully competent, resourceful, diverse, values-based, empowered and intolerant of discrimination
Have fun in what we do and pride in the services we provide
Contact Info
N/A
EMAIL: [e-mail]
https://www.bctide.army.mil/

[Melinda]

65. "Resistance is futile"......

All your base belong to us.

[Walt Starr]

74. It wasn't my thread

:shrug:

[DagmarK]

100. Operative phrase above:

"Fulfill the Chief of Staff's vision by providing an Interim Force system during the Army Transformation"

!!!

[truth2power]

211. Dagmark

Please check your inbox.

[Octafish]

69. The BFEE can't dump everybody.

The VAST majority of officers and enlisted personnel are GOOD Americans who believe in their country and live up to their oaths to defend the Constitution from its enemies, foreign and domestic. From four stars to buck private, they know Who's Who and Which is Which.

FUCK YOU, BUSH!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

71. Will Members of The Democratic Party

have to wear stars and shit like in Nazi Germany?

[Lars39]

75. What Democratic Party?

With the playbook Bushco has been following, there will be essentially only 1 party....

[PurityOfEssence]

72. Any version of this is bad.

Think about it. Just some random thoughts here:

--Shake it up and remind everyone that if you don't toe the line, your career is over. Period.

--Anyone cashiered also serves to destabilize the remaining shreded power relationships.

--Massive restructuring means that any real power is now political, since orderly dissent is now impossible.

--All experience of the established "conservative" (in a good way, meaning non-conquest minded) fold is erased.

--With all of the new faces, even less is understood from the outside.

--The military is now put on notice that they are at the mercy of and serve at the behest of politicians/corporations.

They're radically reconceptualizing the leadership of the military; since they're not isolationists, this only means one thing.

[Minstrel Boy]

109. well said

I don't believe this shake up is indicative of a "coup." (The coup, as others have said, already happened.) This is what the story suggests: a purge. And that's bad enough.

[JohnyCanuck]

132. I agree the coup already happened

Probably this purge is an attempt to ensure there could be no counter-coup staged by the senior levels of the US military who, if they were loyal to their oath to uphold and protect the constitution, might decide that it was their duty to unseat the Unelected Fraud.

[Q]

73. If successful...it would be the second coup...

...the first one taking place in 2000.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

76. Will Members of The Democratic Party

have to wear stars and shit like in Nazi Germany?

What if you're a DLC Democrat will you get a white star and if you're a progressive Democrat will you get a pink star.

And if there's concentration camps for dissenters will veterans be exempt cuz even in Nazi Germany there was a brouhaha when they sent Jewish WW 1 veterans to the gas chamber.

Will Horst Vesell Lieb be resurrected?

ROTFLMAO

[Lars39]

80. If you read the last link I gave you, you would know that Patriot Act II

takes care of that pesky dissent problem, by allowing more room in the camps.

[sandnsea]

186. Nah, just Bill Bennett's Patriotism Program

click here

http://www.k12.com/curriculum/products.html

This will not be Nazi Germany. Nothing ever repeats itself exactly. As stated elsewhere, it'll be a kinder, gentler totalitarianism. Most people won't even notice it's happened.

Kind of like what Merle Haggard said, he had more freedom on parole in 1960 than he does as a regular citizen today. That kind of totalitarianism.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

81. If Bush Makes Himself The

Supreme Commander he could wear his bomber jacket that he's so fond of.

[Rex]

151. Rummy's up to something, that's for sure.

The guy he's putting in charge was head of special forces. Maybe Rumball wants to turn the entire Army into one big Ranger/SF unit?
Make them more mercenary-like? I honestly think two things about Lord Rumball: a)he has BIG plans for the military B)he makes Dr. Strangelove look sane.


My 2 cents.

[lumpy]

168. Yes dictators require loyalty within the military eschelon.

nt

[DagmarK]

177. Re the INTERNET control......can I re-open that topic here?

Does anyone remember a few months back when Ashcroft was talking about a plan to CENTRAL all ISPs? Remember? It wasn't struck down.....or dealt with or anything...and I don't remember the context that it came up in, but I DO remember the plan was: "for national security" ALL ISPs would be centralized (and I assume managed and TAPPED) in a DHS site.

Remember that?

That pretty much takes care of that issue discussed about about whether the govt could control the flow of information.

ALSO, isn't it odd in the midst of all this TERRA and WAR and economic horror that the federal govt would get soooooo concerned about SPAMMING over the internet. Bush making this big deal about protecting us from this horrible intrusion..

I would imagine that all that spam makes the "internet chatter" hard to hear the REALLY JUICY stuff we have traveling over the wires......

I don't know.....seems like the govt has taken a more 'interested' look at what goes on over the internet and they are cleaning house there too.

[German-Lefty]

185. They're fighting a loosing battle me thinks

With PGP encryption available to everyone and free mail accounts. The only thing they can do is note connections. Some guy in Pakistan used Yahoo mail at a coffee shop. Or went to a particular website. If you get a new email address every message, encrypt and then hide your stuff inside porn and use remote locations or tunnel through them, you stand a pretty low chance of drawing attention to yourself. It's not like they can put spies in every coffee shop.

Bin Laden's got smart guys and money; I wonder if he does this or if he perfers to rely on more conservative data exchange (messengers).

[gandalf]

191. Do they?

Do you go to an internet café to post your opinion on DU?
If not, your provider notices your IP, and that can be get or traced.

If you go to an internet café, it would be possible to commit the operator of the café to register all customers, so that you can only use internet if you show your ID.

Even the anonymous remailer network can be corrupted or subtly manipulated so that it is really complicated to send really anonymous mail.
Read this article, and perhaps you will be a little bit less optimistic.
http://groups.google.de/groups?q=nym+account+traffic+analysis+subtle&hl=de&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=90e8f37bd65d694a164e2f5d1b7f9db6%40dizum.com&rnum=1

[German-Lefty]

187. How many Generals get replaced normally?

Look could someone please put this in perspective. How many generals were replaced during Clintons time? This 11 of 50 means nothing to me without some relation to previous "house cleanings". I imagin 3 and 4 star generals tend to be old and about ready to retire anyway. I can also imagin that they are so close to the politicians, and all of those guys get switched out with each administration. My guess is that you don't demote them, you let them save face and send them off into retirement. I'm sure each administration reshuffles the deck some. Could someone please put this in perspective and say how often and how much this happens?

The tin foil theories are interesting, and scare the crap out of me, but I think some of the back and forth attacks here have make us look goofy.

[tlb]

192. House cleaning in the higher ranks is common early in a war.

Too many peacetime generals rise through the ranks on the basis of politics. Comes a war it becomes obvious who is and who isn't a warrior suited to command. This pattern goes back throughout our history.

I don't have inside knowledge of this one but thats my feeling, this is all there is to it.

[friendofbenn]

195. crazy :tinfoilhat:

the new fascism isnt the same as the old one. it only works because 99.9% of the people dont know that it is fascism. bush doesnt need to close down democracy because its already closed down.

[Wonder]

197. I wondered about what seemed to be that new description-The Realm.

From the first time I read that word, back in 2001 was when I first encountered it, I thought it a mighty striking psuedynm. THE REALM. Do the General's that remain in tact have a national icon for it yet?

[MISSDem]

207. No offense, but you folks

have been watching too much tv or something.

[preciousdove]

208. Actually most of us gave up on TV news during the 2000 selection...

We rely on verifiable foreign reports and sites we have begun to trust on the Internet. DU, BuzzFlash and the rest are sometimes months ahead of the mainstream media on news and facts. Sure sometimes we get red herrings and disinformation that destracts us for a time, but so does the NYT.

It's better than being cluelessly scared, mad at the wrong people and ignorant of what is happening. Stick around it gets better.

Welcome MissDem
:hi:

[goforit]

216. And all it takes is 20% to turn things around.

I solute these admonished Generals!!!

You go gentlemen!!...Get down and dirty!!!