Is America a free country?

[Deja Q]

It isn't:

For a "free" country, everything is for sale.

For a "free" country, we must have jobs. Freedom is being able to do what one wants.

For a "free" country, we have to perform well enough to simply survive. If even that, the liveable wage is far higher than the minimum wage, and still higher than a typical worker wage of $10/hr.

For a "free" country, in our jobs, we have to live explicitly by their guidelines or get knocked down, or fired. One step off the tightrope, even if it's not your fault, and they will come after you.

For a "free" country, in our jobs, they promise opportunities but do not deliver.

All of this causes stress.

Stress leads to fear.

Fear leads to hatred.

Hatred leads to violence.

All of this revolves around MONEY.

It has been said for decades that "money is the root of all evil". Open up your eyes, what fucking GOOD has it ever done? I submit to you that we are only slightly more better off than the slaves of previous generations. We're still slaves, we're (well, most of us) just able to watch a TV a few hours a week as compensation for making someone else's life infinitely more luurious.

Our country is not free. It is fa$cism, controlled by the corporation$.

Don't get me wrong. The US Constitution (and therefore America) is pretty damn good by at least PROMISING such freedoms, or at least when fascists try not to add limitations to who is considered 'free'. It's just been HIJACKED. (Not that Americans have obeyed the words they've written in the past... they just decided some people were not people so they could sleep better at night.) So has the Constitution ever been followed to the letter? And why can't we learn from past mistakes rather than cleverly repackage them to fool the masses, who are geniuses for wanting to be fooled?

[BeFree]

1. Ahyuu...yer right.

BeFree

[sweetheart]

2. No its not free

You get no say at all on the economic system of gasoline-driven
stupidity and environmental destruction.

You are free to be poor and have no medical care.

[belle]

13. I actually heard an Ayn Randist argue that last one seriously.

"Yeah, homeless people have a choice: they can work or starve!"

:eyes:

[Mairead]

15. Well, following Ayn Rand is sort of diagnostic all by itself.

[DennisReveni]

33. Bull

"Yeah, homeless people have a choice: they can work or starve!"

Two classes of homeless, those of circumstance and those of choice.
Circumstance are made up of the mentally ill and those who can not find work, for whatever reason, to pay for housing.
Choice see the fallacy of the system. Spend your time to get a paycheck to take to the bank for cash to buy goods. Much like hunter gatherers they prefer to exchange labor directly for goods.

[arewethereyet]

3. what prevents this ?

For a "free" country, we must have jobs. Freedom is being able to do what one wants.

What prevents you from doing what you want ? If you have the needed skills you can do it. If not, perhaps the ball is back in your court ?

[Art_from_Ark]

5. Well, for starters,

if the poster wanted to travel to Cuba, he could be in for a big fine when he came back

[arewethereyet]

6. the post was referring to jobs

and freedom ends at the shores.

[Art_from_Ark]

10. OK, put it this way

If he were offered a job in Cuba, he probably couldn't take it because of US law, regardless of his qualifications.

Satisfied?

[arewethereyet]

26. no

he can move to Cuba and he can live and work there the rest of his days under their law.

But we're not talking about whether Cuba is a free country we're talking about the US.

[Art_from_Ark]

27. But he could not return to the US without fear of being prosecuted

It's not Cuba with the restrictive law in this case, it's the US, so your argument is flawed.

[arewethereyet]

28. that you can't seem to address the question is curious

apparantly you have no argument of it.

did I suggest that Cuba had restrictive laws ? nope.

[Art_from_Ark]

29. Avoiding the issue

You said, what's to stop an American from working at a job that they are qualified to do. I gave you a perfect example, but you ignore it.

But if you want a completely domestic example,

Say someone tried a joint, then were subject to a surprise physical for a job they had already been doing in a very satisfactory manner. Because they had a trace of THC in their system, they were fired before they even started. In this actual case, it was a private sector job that was lost. If it had been a government job, the person might have been blacklisted from government work after that, all because of one little discretion.

[arewethereyet]

45. the question regarded freedom in America, not company X

random drug testing is always a standard, posted policy in a company. as such there is really no such thing as a "surprize".

if the policy says no drugs then you either no drug free or risk the consequences.

however you are free to take illegal drugs in the first place.

it is common in any large organization to share personel information across divisions. this holds true for the government. if the employer will not tolerate drugs then its good that they protect one division with knowledge from another.

you are free to apply cross departentally,
you are free to follow policy or not,
you are free to come and go from one company to another.

and those companies are also free to set policy as befits their safety and policy standards.

[Art_from_Ark]

47. It wasn't common back in the eighties, when the event in question occurred

The person who lost his job in incident #1 (not me) was a very bright Masters' degree recipient who made one mistake one night that hurt no one, not even himself, yet he was severely punished for it.

The person in incident #2 never took any drugs, but was apparently blacklisted when the piss cup tests came back positive. Obviously, the testing center screwed up.

There is a lot less freedom to do "what you want" in the USA than you may think.

[arewethereyet]

51. I still dont see it

the people were free to take illegal drugs. their employers are also free to set standards of conduct. if these folks were not ok with the terms of their employment they were free to seek work elsewhere.

[leftofthedial]

4. No

there is no freedom under capitalism.

[Columbia]

7. And so do you mean...

That there is freedom under communism?

[belle]

14. Those aren't the only two options.

[bemildred]

8. We have the highest incarceration rate in the World.

Next question.

[Wonco_the_Sane]

9. YES!! AMERICA IS THE MOST FREE!!

Just thought I'd say that out loud. (you never know who's watching) :)

[Art_from_Ark]

11. Big Brother is watching you

By the way, comrade, it's almost time for the Two Minutes Hate!

[JCMach1]

12. Capitalism is about choice

Our Repug friends have been working VERY hard to eliminate as much of this as they can.

[Mairead]

16. Well said, Toad! We are very far indeed from being meaningfully free

Europeans, in many ways, are much more free than we.

[Disturbed]

17. Freedom

"Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose."

[Mairead]

25. Three cheers for Janis!

What a damned pity she died so young :( :( :(

[zanana]

18. When I hear Republicans say;

"It's a Republic, not a Democracy", I have no illusions about our "freedoms". They're being chipped away one by one. As a woman, I'm horrified at what the Republicans are doing in the name of "family values". If Bush is left in power, the right to choose will be gone. I believe a woman was just arrested this week about her choice not to have a caesarean section and charged with murder. This is scary stuff. Whenever you have a large group of people who "worship" their leader, as Republicans worship Bush, their political philosophy is not one of democracy. Think about it the next time you hear a Republican say "This is not a Democracy; it's a Republic".

[Mairead]

23. When I hear them say that, I just stifle the impulse to laugh at them

since they're clearly 'morans' and ignoramuses who don't even know what the words mean.

But your point is well-taken. I only wish I felt that Kerry would be an actual improvement rather than a nicer face on the same vicious policies.

[Muddleoftheroad]

19. It's still free enough to ask that question`

Try doing that in every nation on earth. Many places you will end up in jail.

[Art_from_Ark]

30. Straw man

There are plenty of countries in the world where one can ask "are we a free people?" and not worry about official persecution. The US has no monopoly in that department.

[not systems]

31. Name one.

With a reference to someone going to jail for asking that question.

[Muddleoftheroad]

34. Let's just talk unfree

How about:

* Saudi Arabia
* Syria
* China

Just for starters.

[MadProphetMargin]

36. How about America, if your name happend to be

Jose Padillo?

Or Medgar Evers?

Or Howard Stern?

[Muddleoftheroad]

39. Howard Stern?

LOL. Sorry, I don't bow down at the altar of that blowhard.

[MadProphetMargin]

40. So, you don't think the first amendment applies to him?

Sorry you had to dodge the question. I'll ask an easier one next time.

[not systems]

37. Let's not.

Let us talk platitudes about freedom.

[iverglas]

20. freedom from fear, freedom from want

LeahMira reminded me of those words of Franklin Roosevelt in a thread a while back: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1183895&mesg_id=1183895&page=

The sad fact is that they have been given more meaning in a lot of places in the world than they ever have in the US.

If I may reiterate what I said there (and if I might take what Muddleoftheroad has to say about it as a given, and just suggest that anyone else who wants to know could click on the link above), about the peace, justice, food and shelter that are what most people in the world really want ...




Of course I wouldn't deny that it can be hard to get those things without freedom of speech -- but what people are fighting for when they are imprisoned for their speech is, at bottom, peace, justice, food and shelter -- freedom from fear and freedom from want.

The way this is expressed in the modern world is "human security". Stick that into google, and get 141,000+ returns.

The first: the Commission on Human Security -- http://www.humansecurity-chs.org /

The Commission on Human Security was established in January 2001 through the initiative of the Government of Japan and in response to the UN Secretary-General’s call at the 2000 Millennium Summit for a world “free of want” and “free of fear.” The Commission consists of twelve prominent international figures, including Mrs. Sadako Ogata (former UN High Commissioner for Refugees) and Professor Amartya Sen (1998 Nobel Economics Prize Laureate).

Human security covers a wide range of issues from conflict, to development, financial crisis and social protection.

http://www.humansecuritynetwork.org /

A humane world where people can live in security and dignity, free from poverty and despair, is still a dream for many and should be enjoyed by all. In such a world, every individual would be guaranteed freedom from fear and freedom from want, with an equal opportunity to fully develop their human potential. Building human security is essential to achieving this goal.

In essence, human security means freedom from pervasive threats to people's rights, their safety or even their lives.

Human security has become both a new measure of global security and a new agenda for global action. Safety is the hallmark of freedom from fear, while well-being is the target of freedom from want. Human security and human development are thus two sides of the same coin, mutually reinforcing and leading to a conducive environment for each other.

Really ... the discussion isn't just about what "freedom" means -- it's about what we care about and want to achieve.

"Freedom" is just one part of what *I* care about and want to achieve, and of what a lot of people at the international level and in other countries than the US have decided is important and should be worked toward. Those notions just haven't quite caught on as widely and firmly inside the US and in the US's policies and actions toward the rest of the world.

.

[YIMA]

21. It's a police state

We are controlled by the corporate masters who sit in their ivory towers above the serfs. Only we have the power to take back our lives. The time is coming to gather these plutocrats together and hurl them off a cliff.

[newyawker99]

22. Hi YIMA!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[revree]

24. We used to be free...

now we're just SCARED STUPID.

[DennisReveni]

32. HypnoToad

Agreed. Never has been.
Anytime you buy property that can be taken away from you for not paying homage to the state, then you are not free.
Anytime the state can dictate your right to control your body and your right to death, you are not free.

[SOteric]

35. No, it's not free.

B+ut it is available at a competitive price.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

38. I thought it was a continent, but free? It depends.

[Kimber Scott]

41. Well, you can't just build a shack in the woods.

You could go to jail for squatting.

You can't sleep on a lot of sidewalks. You could go to jail for loitering.

You can't kill your dinner. You could go to jail for poaching.

I don't live around water, so I don't know, if you can live on a raft, or not. Somebody, might pitch in on that one.

You can't not pay your HOA fees, you can't not cut your weeds, you can't paint your house a different color than the rest of the neighborhood, or add a second story, if you do, somebody will take your house away from you and sell it to their brother-in-law for pennies on the dollar.

You can't ride a horse to work and hitch it to a post in the parking lot. (Maybe someplaces you can, but I'm sure somebody would find a reason you can't. Maybe there's a poop law, or something.)

You can't touch national monuments, or national treasures and you can't take glass in the park.

You can't smoke in the office, or in a restaurant and in some places you can't smoke in your car, or on the street. That's cigarettes. You can't smoke pot anywhere.

You can't marry your girlfriend, if you're a girl, or your boyfriend, if you're a boy and you can't say bomb on an airplane.

I heard a man in Tennessee today say, "His rights end where mine begin." That's America for you. We're all so free, we're imprisoned by it.

[Shifty-Eyed Llama]

42. .

delete

[Shifty-Eyed Llama]

43. dangit.

.

[not systems]

44. Exercising the right to free speech I see...

just don't say that on the radio.

Welcome to DU Shifty-Eyed Llama.

:hi:

Perl?

[Dark Angel]

46. There's a common misonception at play here, I think

And here it is:

Corporations did not get so powerful by themselves. They had help from government.

For example, let's take Wal-Mart.
The government has abused its power by stealing people's houses and property and only paying them the fair market value. Whatever happened to property rights? Senior citizens, who have lived there for 50+ years, have to leave their houses, because WALLY f***** Wal-Mart needs to expand.

Here are others:

Sometimes the government grants natural monopolies to power companies, etc, and these companies still pay their executives ridiculously high salaries.

Or the HMO act, which mandated that employers with more than X workers offer an HMO as a health care option. This contributed to the rise of HMO's.

If you want to reduce the power of corporations, reduce the power of government to give BENEFITS to corporations.

ELIMINATE EMINENT DOMAIN, PERIOD. It is completely unfair for someone to buy a house and then the government to take that house from them and raze it and give the property to a company. I hope that all of us can agree that this is unfair.

ELIMINATE some Natural monopolies. Let there be competition, and if natural monopolies must remain, cap CEO pay and benefits. Make those people be fiscally responsible.

Just some thoughts.

[rman]

49. "They had help from government"

makes me wonder what's in it for them.

why did the government help corporations become more powerfull then the government?

[Dark Angel]

50. No corporation is more powerful than the government

No corporation. Not even Wally-Mart. And that is the way it should be. The government should be more powerful so that it can push companies around if they get out of line. :)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

48. Not an all-or-nothing question. Freer than some, less free than others.

I daresay my country may be a bit freer than yours.