Poll Numbers Devastating for Chávez

[windansea]

CARACAS, Feb 5 (IPS) - Venezuela's President Hugo Chávez would be defeated by a wide margin in any election or any referendum on his mandate, according to two private polling firms that released their survey results here Wednesday.

Polls conducted in 64 cities and in rural areas show ''consistently since late 2001 that, at a ratio of around 70-30, the electorate would vote against Chávez,'' Luis León, director of the Datanálisis firm, told the foreign press.

In a potential referendum to revoke Chávez's mandate -- a vote that the opposition is seeking and which the Constitution allows as of August -- ''64 percent of the electorate would vote against Chávez and 34 percent in favor,'' said León. Saúl Cabrera, of Consultores 21 polling firm, told the press that ''in any election Chávez would lose.''

''It's what you could say about someone gravely ill with cancer: he is going to die in a month, six months or a year. But he is going to die,'' said the public opinion expert. Both polling companies said their predictions for the Venezuelan elections of the past few years were consistently very close to the official results.

http://www.hacer.org/current/VENEPOLLS.php

[windansea]

1. also

''Another myth is that opinions are divided along class lines,'' said the pollster.

The anti-Chávez vote in the Datanálisis polls was 65 percent among people of lower incomes and 58 percent among people from the middle to wealthier strata.

http://www.hacer.org/current/VENEPOLLS.php

[On the Road]

2. This is the Plan (Regardless of the Accuracy of the Poll):

Control the media, disrupt the economy, keep the country in political and economic turmoil, then promote a pro-US neoliberal candidate.

Worked in Nicaragua against Daniel Ortega. Who knows if it will work in Venezuela?

And if the government goes beyond the law to oppose the plan, there's a bonus - it's a discredited, evil, morally bankrupt regime. In some cases, the US even gets to invade.

[Exgeneral]

90. At least SOMEONE here gets it

This propaganda from the Reich wing is getting repetitive and old.
Polls show this polls show that , yet the polls never seem to ask any respondents with black hair living in the wrong part of town.

I object to the entire context of this post and this thread, it's a sickening insult to progressives anywhere but especially a site that purports to be "Democratic" and "Underground
Because what I see here is nothing but neoliberal propaganda designed to take down a democratically elected leader whose crimes so far consist of not killing the participants of the oligarchy who tried to overthrow him militarily.

Shame on all that are trying to pervert this audience.

Plan Condor lives, doesn't it.

[Zorra]

118. Yeah, the good ol' SOA strikes again.

The US version of al Qaeda.

[Zorra]

163. March 1, 2004: Venezuela ceases training of soldiers at SOA.

It is very hard not to be skeptical of right wing economic forces and the media after SOA graduates attempted a right wing coup in Venezuela in 2002. So, did these right wingers just give up and go away? I seriously doubt it.

US Republican administrations have a long, tragic, and violent history of fomenting right wing coups in order to to set-up oppressive puppet governments favorable to US economic interests in Latin America. How can a nation possibly establish a sovereign democracy when the right wing government of a wealthy powerful nation is deliberately and constantly infiltrating and disrupting these democracies, by sending in terrorists trained to incite revolution in order to secure economic and political domination of the democracy? What, exactly, is Chavez supposed to do under these circumstances? How can he maintain the stability and sovereignity of his country when the country is literally under constant attack from hostile subversive outside forces?

Venezuela Ceases All Training of Soldiers at the School of the Americas
WASHINGTON - March 1
The official announcement was made by Venezuelan Vice President Jose Vicente Rangel in an address to the Venezuelan National Assembly on Thursday, February 26, 2004. In an earlier meeting with a delegation of U.S. human rights activists, Rangel stated that the SOA/WHISC is a training school for dictators, torturers and terrorists, and a country such as the U.S., which considers itself to be a democracy, should not have such a school on it's soil. During a visit of religious leaders from the United States in Venezuela in January, President Hugo Chavez also spoke out against the SOA as he stated: "This school (the SOA/WHISC) deformed the minds of many Latin American soldiers, who from there went on to become dictators." (El Nacional, January 19, 2004)

The SOA graduates Efrain Vasquez Velasco (the Army Commander in Chief) and General Ramirez Poveda were key players in the coup attempt against democratically elected President Hugo Chavez in April 2002. Another SOA graduate, Lieutenant German Rudolfo Varela, who is currently in INS detention in Miami, FL, is wanted in Venezuela for his involvement in embassy bombings in Caracas in February 2003.

Over its 58 years, the SOA has trained over 60,000 Latin American soldiers in counter-insurgency techniques, sniper skills, commando and psychological warfare, military intelligence and interrogation tactics. Graduates have consistently used their skills to wage a war against their own people. Among those targeted by SOA graduates are educators, unionists, religious workers, student leaders, and others who work for the rights of the poor. Thousands of Latin Americans have been tortured, raped, assassinated, "disappeared," massacred, and forced into refuge by those trained at the SOA.

http://www.commondreams.org/news2004/0301-11.htm

[Zorra]

169. And it seems someone wiser than me recently agreed with my point.

Kucinich to Bush Administration:
Let Salvadorans vote
For Immediate Release: March 19, 2004
Contact: Matt Harris (o) 216.889.2004, (c) 216.403.3980,
[e-mail] ; Nate Wilkes 602.221.6598

<b>Congressman Kucinich said: "Unfortunately, what is going on in El Salvador is representative of a Latin American policy that is not about promoting healthy democracies, but instead focused on making Latin American nations bend to U.S. commercial interests."</b>

"The people of El Salvador have a right to free and fair elections without interference from the United States. The U.S. cannot claim to be a leader in promoting democracy worldwide and at the same time hinder democracy by attempting to influence the outcome of elections abroad," Kucinich said.

[windansea]

122. what is sickening is progressives against democracy

You appear to swallow the propaganda of Chavez lock stock and barrel. Many here think he is the populist savior of the oppressed poor...but guess what...the poor in Venezuela are turning against Chavez and his empty rhetoric. I am not sure how up to date you are on the recall referendum which 3.5 million venezuelans signed. Chavez tried to say over a million of these were fake, even though each signature included fingerprints, ID number crosscheck, and witnesses from the govt, opposition, and Carter Center. The map below shows Caracas and where most of the signatures "rejected"
by Chavez occurred...explanation below.



What I found fascinating about it is that it proves to me why the forms with the same calligraphy were necessary. For those of you who do not know Caracas, you can simplify the socioeconomic distribution of its population as being poor on the West side (mid-left to left on the image) and East side (extreme right of the image) with the band in the middle being where what is left of the middle class lives.

Well, it is remarkable that what this picture actually shows is that the rules were loaded against the very people that Chávez and his revolution are supposed to represent, love and rule for. It is very simple, the rules were quite strict (look in the presentation at the 35 types of errors), and you had to write clearly and carefully, within a restricted space and in a certain order. Well, the result was that those living in the poor areas had a much higher percentage of rejections or signatures sent for observation.

In fact, it had to be that way. It was precisely in the lower class areas of the cities where those at the poll booths helped those signing the petition the most in filling out their personal data. Therefore, it is those areas that generated more forms with the same calligraphy. In fact the map above can be used by someone that knows Caracas to identify barrios, even those entrenched within middle class neigborhoods, very simply. Even where there are few large size dots, look for the bigger ones.

Ironic isn’t it? The revolution created rules that in the end violated the rights of those that are supposed to support it the most. Or was it simply revenge for opposing the revolution despite being poor?



http://blogs.salon.com/0001330/

[AP]

129. You have given us the evidence on which we conclude Chavez is good.

Did I thank you for directing us to the picture of the National Guard saving the homeless man from being shot by molotov cocktail throwing and heavily armed opposition criminals?

Of course, I had to go searching for the truth about that picture, but thank you nonetheless. I would have missed it completely had you not (misre)presented it to us.

[windansea]

132. good answer to my post....not

still clinging to your 'score" of discovering a caption I never saw.

is that why you won't respond to evidence that your "Chavez saves the poor" theory is crumbling?

[AP]

133. How do we know that all your conclusions aren't based on "captions

you never saw"?

[Judi Lynn]

134. That photo of the homeless man being dragged to safety,

out of the range of gunfire from the "opposition" maggots was great.

It showed us the man was spared, and it showed us what we already expected: the "opposition" maggots are lower than anything we would recognize.

It is a good companion photo to that blond "opposition" dolt firing up her wristrocket in hopes of killing another not-so-prosperous Chavez supporter, like the man whose mutilated form we saw in a photo, lying in the coroner's office, having a marble lodged within, and one which passed right through.


IMBECILES

[AP]

136. Rebuttal?

Does everyone realize how perfectlly that exchange captured what's going on on DU and in Venezuela?

If not, I or J.L. (I'm sure) would be willing to run through exactly what happend (and its symoblic significance) for anyone who considers themselves semiotically and informationally incabable of understanding it without assistance.

This entire debate can be reduced to the posts discussed in this subthread.

[windansea]

139. puhlease...........

yes lets forget all the posts containg reports from the Carter Center, AI, HRW, reporters without borders, IAPA, EU, UN, Washington Post, Guardian, quotes and letters from Barney Frank and Barbara Lee all of which support my POV and reduce the debate to a photo caption.

good one!!!

the more we debate this issue the more I can see that a certain cadre of people here don't care about constitutional law or democratic rights...dismiss reports from world respected organizations, and even go so far as to attempt smears against great Democrats like Jimmy Carter and Barney Frank.

pathetic :puke:

[AP]

142. That one exchange was a perfect symbol of the debate. It lest you know

what each side is fighting for, and let's you know that you can't trust the way the opposition presents the 'facts.'

Every one of those 'facts' you cite is presented through the opposition lens which bends it in a way that doesn't reflect reality.

[windansea]

145. he he

your perception of verbatim reports and quotes from the orgs and Democrats I have used as sources is duly noted.

sorry but you can't spin those facts as "presented though the opposition lens"

keep trying though..it's amusing

[AP]

148. Was that photograph you showed "verbatim"?

You put a spin on it that was 180 degrees from the truth, as the caption subsequently proved.

I believe that you spin the significance of the Carter quote at least 90% off the axis of truth.

The Frank thing I find inconsequential beyond words.

Photographs of people holding up id cards from a Salon blog that are completely unsourced, despite the fact that you have 7 TV stations willing to tell lies about Chavez -- again, probably 180 degrees from the truth.

[AP]

130. Incidentally, this blogger has turned out to be unreliable in the past.

[bearfartinthewoods]

161. and some get that there are people who believe what they choose to believe

like chavez is beloved and the only way he will be defeated is at the hands of evil America.

[Imajika]

3. That is just about the margin I predicted

Chavez would go down to defeat in overwhelmingly embarassing fashion. 65% - 35% sounds about right.

There is a good reason Chavez is fighting so hard against the referendum. He and all of his supporters know he'd lose.

"'It's what you could say about someone gravely ill with cancer: he is going to die in a month, six months or a year. But he is going to die,' said the public opinion expert. Both polling companies said their predictions for the Venezuelan elections of the past few years were consistently very close to the official results."

Yet as popular as ever amongst the Chavez boosters right here on DU.

I haven't heard much from the Mugabe fan club lately, I hear Chavez has recently endorsed him as a true visionary and man of the people.

Imajika

[deutsey]

4. The source is a bit suspect to me

The president of Hacer is Alejandro Chafuen:

Born in 1954 in Argentina, in 1980 Chaufen was invited to join the Mont Pelerin Society by Leonard Read and Manuel Ayau, the youngest person ever admitted to the elite group. He joined the Atlas Foundation in 1985, and became president in 1991. A onetime follower of Ayn Rand, the atheist free-market philosopher and writer, Chafuen now considers himself a loyal Roman Catholic.

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Alejandro_Chafuen

Mont Pelerin Society

The Mont Pelerin Society is an international organisation, consisting of libertarian academics and business leaders, which advocates the "economic society". It has close ties to the network of think tanks sponsored in part by the Atlas Economic Research Foundation.

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Mont_Pelerin_Society

The Atlas Economic Research Foundation was founded in 1981 by Antony Fisher.

It provides financial and other support to its international network of right-wing think tanks, and provides start-up funding to help establish new think tanks. Between 1981 and 1998 it channeled more than $14 million to free-market institutes.

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Atlas_Economic_Research_Foundation


Chavez's poll numbers may be devastating for Chavez, but I'm leery of this source and its connections to a libertarian/Ayn Rand kind of exaltation of so-called free markets.

[windansea]

6. Polls not conducted by Hacer

they were done by Datanalisis & Consultores 21, both of which were accurate in predicting Chavez victories in the past.

also...

''Put yourself in Chávez's shoes. He's no dummy,'' Leon told reporters. ''Why would he encourage elections if he knows he is going to lose? If he weren't scared of losing, he would have already held elections, like he did before (seven different elections in two years), when he had the majority in his pocket.''

http://www.hacer.org/current/VENEPOLLS.php

[deutsey]

64. Maybe so, but I'd rather see the original source for this

without going to Hacer. IPS or Yahoo would have been better.

I'm not a Chavez partisan (although I loved how the people rallied to undo the coup), but I certainly don't want to go to a site like this unless I have to.

[windansea]

80. sorry

the IPS site required payment to see archived articles

[oc2002]

5. the newspaper polls are mostly slanted, as they are all owned by oppositio

As long as the majority support Chavez, which also happen to be poor, he will stay in power. The media is mostly ignored by the poor, and the poor are mostly ignored by the media, so those polls are meaningless propaganda for outsiders.

[windansea]

7. the myth about the poor supporting Chavez

''Another myth is that opinions are divided along class lines,'' said the pollster.

The anti-Chávez vote in the Datanálisis polls was 65 percent among people of lower incomes and 58 percent among people from the middle to wealthier strata.

http://www.hacer.org/current/VENEPOLLS.php

[oc2002]

15. Please take your propagand elsewhere, no one here is buying.

Funny that the polls do not reflect reality, maybe that is why they are so upset that nobody believes biased polls.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

17. You are about to hear about Chavez and Saddam

The propaganda will fly!!!!

[BradCKY]

23. You wanna talk about Saddam? OK

On second thought I'll just start a new thread.

[Forkboy]

28. Like he said

The propaganda will fly!

[ret5hd]

8. would these be the same polling firms...

that do their polling by PHONE? When, what, maybe 90% of the people don't have a phone? Are they afraid to walk in the slums, where Chavez's base is at? Those that do have phones are largely the elite oligarchy that are instigating the recall in the first place?

<snip>
The Datanálisis results are based on surveys of households in 5,000 blocks in urban areas, providing 80 to 85 percent of the sample. Consultores 21 works solely by telephone, taking into account that even the poor often have cellular phones.
</snip>

AND, this little goodie:
The LA Times’ correspondent T. Christian Miller describes the director of Datanálisis, Jose Antonio Gil Yepes, as " a man of “Venezuela’s elite” who “moves in circles of money, power and influence” and “was educated in top U.S. schools.”

AND...
THe LA Times quoted Gil Yepes saying that Chavez “has to be killed.”

AND...
Who exactly paid for these polls? Often, Datanálisis polls are commissioned and published by Venezuela’s elite-controlled newspaper El Nacional.


And also, exactly when is this report from? The link at the bottom of the page to yahoo news is dead, and the only date in the article only says Feb 5. No year.

[9215]

11. Excellent Post.

that do their polling by PHONE? When, what, maybe 90% of the people don't have a phone? Are they afraid to walk in the slums, where Chavez's base is at? Those that do have phones are largely the elite oligarchy that are instigating the recall in the first place?

Windy, what are you going to do when Bush cancels the Prez election?

Don't answer it, I already know: NOTHING, or start arguing about how it was neccessary for national security reasons.

[ret5hd]

12. more on venezuelan polling methodology...

www.narconews.com/Issue27/article594.html

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

19. He'll do whatever his girlfriend tells him to

you know that

[9215]

52. But what does he get

in return? The only things we know about her, according to windy is that she's "gorgeous" and "quite persuasive". Of course it's hard to gauge the truth of this because of so many lies windy's already been nabbed in.

But what I was saying earlier. The only thing a gorgeous woman would need to persuade me to do is lie, everything else would...uh, er....((come naturally)).

So its safe to assume that she is getting windy to lie (not lie down) for her and the return favor is...well, not hard to figure out.

[windansea]

20. you may not believe these polls

even though both firms were accurate in predicting Chavez victories in the past.

Chavez most certainly believes them...

''Put yourself in Chávez's shoes. He's no dummy,'' Leon told reporters. ''Why would he encourage elections if he knows he is going to lose? If he weren't scared of losing, he would have already held elections, like he did before (seven different elections in two years), when he had the majority in his pocket.''

This IPS article (reprinted on Hacer) was from FEB 5 2004 which is obvious as the article refers to the 4 million signatures collected last December.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

24. How does this post prove Chavez cares about these polls?

That was inane. Try again

[windansea]

31. maybe because Chavez is doing everything possible

to stop the recall vote??? kinda obvious

[9215]

38. "everything possible"........? That covers alot

of territory. Got anything to back that u......oh, sorry. I know you don't back things up, it is your privilege.

[windansea]

46. I'd be happy to compare the percentage of my posts

that are backed up by credible sources, with yours.

RE: Venezuela my sources include Carter Center, Barney Frank, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Reporters Without Borders, International Coalition of Human Rights, Washington Post, Kofi Annan, Reuters, the Guardian, and some non corporate blogs by venezuelans.

Asfaras specific backup for my claim Chavez is doing everything possible to stop a recall vote, I am sure you have seen the Carter Center report and Barney Frank quotes...need I post them again??

[9215]

55. But you persist in ignoring my specific

statements about the insufficient scope of Carter's and the others attempts at monitoring the elections. I am talking about foreign money and coercion of voters by their employers. These important little tidbits were not within the observers purview. As I said at another topic that you flew away from and started a half dozen more topics in your whirlwind tour here at DU, these factors: the foreign money and influence and the coercion by employers need to be addressed. Otherwise sending in observers to merely watch the voting process is like waiting until the fourth quarter to send in the football game referees.

I await your reply.

[windansea]

58. if you are talking about the NED money

it's not against venezuelan laws, nor ours. Foreign businesses are prohibited from contributing, but not NGOs like the NED.

as far as coercion of voters, you produced one article from a pro Chavez site...I can produce articles from opposition sites that detail workers being fired for signing the referendum.

The Carter Center is notoriously stringent in monitoring the fairness of elections...thats why they enjoy a good reputation worldwide.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

67. If the NED is some harmless NGO. I'm Elvis.

This little fund of yours has been used for all kinds of dirty tricks and destabilization of foreign governments all over Latin America. Go sell your shit somewhere else. We ain't buying.

[windansea]

72. my little fund??

guess you better contact congress...overwhelming support there

also contact Senator Kerry, he wants to raise NED funding.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

98. I don't give shit who's for it.

I do care what they do and have done with it. You seem to be under the impression that I give two fucks about Democrats supporting this. Many supported Vietnam and the Iraq war as well. Guess what? They were wrong there too. Both Democrats and Rethugs have supported some of the worst thugs in Latin America. Including your boys down in Venezuela. The only difference is that at least the Dems have people like Kucinich, Barbara Lee and the late Moakley. Like I said before go sell your shit elsewhere 'cause we ain't buying.

[windansea]

104. this Barbara Lee??

Dear President Chavez,

We are disturbed by recent punitive actions taken by your government against the leaders of the opposition to you, and we are particularly concerned by the recent murders of people who were identified with that opposition.

In recent comments, particularly in response to OAS President Cesar Gavaria, you said that you were unimpressed by criticism of some of your government’s actions from people who had nothing to say when coups were being plotted. We are not in that category. Indeed, we have all spoken out against the American government’s involvement with any unconstitutional effort to overthrow your government, and we signed a letter to President Bush, which was widely publicized in the United States making that point. But our objection to any American action that would ignore the results of the last Venezuelan election should not be construed in any way as indifference to the importance in a democracy of respect for the untrammeled rights of a vigorous opposition and we must tell you that we are concerned that recent events in Venezuela call into question that respect.

We urge you to do everything possible to apprehend the murderers of those opposition figures to which we referred, to do everything possible to prevent any further violence against those who have been in the political opposition, and to refrain from prosecution of individuals based on the vigor of their opposition to you. We hope that all parties in Venezuela will engage energetically in political debate, leading up to electoral processes sanctioned by the Venezuelan Constitution, which all parties will agree to respect.


REP. BARNEY FRANK
REP. JANICE D. SCHAKOWSKY
REP. LYNN C. WOOLSEY
REP. MAURICE D. HINCHEY
REP. JOHN LEWIS
REP. BARBARA LEE
REP. DANNY K. DAVIS

http://www.house.gov/frank/venuzulea2003.html

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

107. Yeah, this same one too.

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/03/286405.html

Rep. Barbara Lee Criticizes U.S. "Systematic Destabilization and Undermining of Democracy in Haiti"

Rep. Barbara Lee compares the administration's policies in Haiti to the invasion of Iraq and talks about the systematic embargo and the disallowance of funding for humanitarian projects in Haiti such as health education and clean water efforts.



Hugo Chavez Accuses U.S. of Spending Over $1 Million To Help Oust Him

Newly publicized documents show how the National Endowment for Democracy has given over $1 million in projects related to an anti-Chavez referendum and opposition groups.


ALSO Yesterday on KPFA radio programme Flashpoints http://www.flashpoints.net
sources close to the Haitian sitting Prime Minister Neptune said is saying that President Aristide was forced to sign a document 'with a gun to his head'and did not actaully want to resign, and under the constitution of Haiti he still has not resigned.
Prime Minister Neptune also reports that he is himself a prisoner in his own office-held there by US agents.

Nowhere does it say in that letter that she backs the NED or the way they are providing funds for the "opposition". That seems to me like a respectful letter to a head of state. Not the kind of bullshit about Mao and Stalin we're used to getting from you.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

50. Maybe any politician would. Just ask Grey Davis.

[windansea]

54. actually Davis did try to oppose the recall

and the 9th Circuit ruled against him...he got punished badly for this and also for pandering with drivers licenses to "non documented" immigrants.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

63. No shit, really? And your point is....

[windansea]

65. my point is that when

people oppose recalls it usually means they think they will lose

[AP]

140. I believe more people voted NO-Arnold and No-anyone, then voted

Yes-Arnold in CA. That's democratic?

They had a recall BECAUSE they couldn't win a regular election.

[Judi Lynn]

144. Right-wingers have to resort to desperate measures

to win anything.

Cheating, even murder.

Just saw a show recently on Cable about a Republican State Senate candidate, in Kentucky, who MURDERED his Democratic Senator in hopes of beating him in the coming election.

Mr. Looper had his middle name changed legally to "Low Tax." That's right. Byron "Low Tax" Looper.

Sick, ugly, stupid, rigid, psychotically anal Republicans.

[windansea]

150. more people voted yes Arnold

than voted yes Davis in the regular election, more people voted period.

recall 2003
Arnold Schwarzenegger, REP 4,206,284

general 2002
Gray Davis, DEM 3,533,490

[AP]

151. Arnold got the votes of people who voted N0-Arnold.

Subtract those votes and, I believe, you discover that he didn't get as many votes as there were total No votes.

In other words, more people didn't want a recall than wanted Arnold to be their governor, yet Arnold is Governor.

The CA recall statute is designed to do this. It divides the normal question you ask in an election -- who do you want to win -- into a two-part question which is impossible for an incumbant to win.

The first question: thumbs up or thumbs down, do you like the guy you elected? There probably aren't 5 politicians in America who could get a thumbs up in the current economic environment, and one of them, Paul Wellstone, died in a small plane crash.

Then you have a second question, which is practically a hypothetical: if you could chose from ANYONE (and it was just about anyone) who would you chose. The limitless second question helps soften up the NO voters and encourage some of them to come over to the Yes side, but it also, cognitively, breaks down your sense of responsibility for your vote. It's not like you're realy voting between two or three visions. You're breaking all these things down in a way to disconnect the choice from its consequences.

Like I said, it's very undemocratic.

[Judi Lynn]

153. Not to mention the full-court press engaged to advance the big blob.

I've never seen anything like it.

He's simply not cut out for a job requiring a lot of thinking, like _Bush.

Of course, it's noteworthy that the same media had been slashing and hacking away at Gray Davis, and undercutting him for ages, after the oil companies ran their game on California, and reamed him but good.

If Republicans don't get to cheat, they won't win at all.

[AP]

155. Local news was all Arnold all the time. When he didn't show up for the...

...debate, he STILL led the news: "what did Arnold think of the debate?"

Who needs to show up and debate policy when the news is ready and willing to totally look at the world through your biased eyes?

And, psst, the Venezuela press is 1000 times worse. I know it's hard to believe, but it's true.

And what did Arnold do when he got elected? Settled a suit against Enron for pennies on the dollar.

Surprise?

That's another theme the opposition will play if they get elected in VZ.

[windansea]

154. wrong again

Recall Governor
Yes 4,976,274 55.4%
No 4,007,783 44.6%

whats democratic is to change the recall law if you don't like it, its been on the books for a LONG time

[AP]

156. You're missing the key piece of info: No-Arnold voters. If 15% of Arnold's

votes were No-Arnold votes, then he got fewer votes than there were no votes, which means more people didn't want a recall than wanted Arnold as governor, which I think even you can admit is a shite state of affairs for democracy since Arnold is, in fact, governor of CA today.

[AP]

160. Should I interpret your silence as you understanding the point?

And do you still want to claim the CA recall is democratic?

It's a KIND of democracy, but I'm not sure that it isn't one that best serves people who aren't interested in democracy. (I guess you could say that most elections favor the people who have money, but it's still amazing the lengths they'll go to undo an election, the outcome of which they don't like!)

You get one bite at the apple when you're a liberal. You get limitless bites at the apple if you're a fascist. Nice.

[AP]

157. By the way, being so obtuse doesn't help you in terms of credibility on...

...all your other claims to understand how politics works. However, misrepresenting that National Guard 'foto' should be impossible to recover from.

[Judi Lynn]

158. That was damned strange.

The soldier was pulling the man back out of harm's way, AWAY from the bullets being shot by the scum of the earth opposition.

It seems almost impossible to see any other way, but the attempt was made to mislead. So odd!

[Judi Lynn]

120. You make an important point.

Back when the coup was happening, D.U. was fortunate to be in contact daily with a person who was IN Venezuela at the same time, who kept us completely current. He and a DU'er who had lived for years in Venezuela and knew it well brought out a lot of information to get us started in our own information searches, quests, and got a lot of us waking up dormant parts of our brains in order to learn more about this thing.

One of the DU posters said that MOST of the Venezuelans don't have phones. She said telephone polls would NOT include these people, who are the vast majority.

If a publication insists that many very poor people have cell-phones, I think you have to ask questions about that publication, since most of Venezuela's poor can't afford home phones, and, OF COURSE, who gets polled on his CELL PHONE?

The agents of disinformation must imagine Americans will believe almost anything they try to unload, since most of us haven't been to the countries whose oligarchies they try to maintain, defend, and advance, and haven't learned enough to know when we are getting lies, until something raises our awareness. They NEED us to remain uninformed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Good article on the right-wing Vene. media:

The April 2002 coup against the Chávez government was presented by the media and the US government as a spontaneous popular uprising in response to outrages committed by Chávez and his supporters. Since the coup, information has increasingly come to light that the coup and the apparent shooting of opposition demonstrators by pro-Chávez forces were all part of a carefully planned conspiracy organised by military coup plotters, the media and the US government.

Apart from the government-owned VTV, all of Venezuela’s television stations and most of its other media are in the hands of the wealthy elite. They have brazenly campaigned against Chávez, not merely with run-of-the-mill distortions of the truth, but with outright and preposterous lies.

Headlines like “Hugo Chávez admits to being head of criminal network” are not uncommon. The March 15, 2002 El Nacional reported that “sources from the intelligence services have uncovered agreements entered into with elements linked to Hezbollah on the Venezuelan island of Margarita, who are controlled by the Iranian embassy. You will remember that when Chávez was campaigning, a certain Moukhdad was extremely generous. That debt had to be repaid, and now Iran is to make Venezuela an operational base, in exchange for training Venezuelans in Iranian organisations for the defence of the Islamic revolution. Terrorism is in our midst.”

Although one of the media’s repeated complaints against Chávez is that he has suppressed freedom of the press, the government has only just recently begun legal action against them in spite of their active involvement in plotting a military coup and in printing articles which would have had them destroyed by libel or criminal suits in almost any other country.
(snip/...)

http://www.cislac.org.au/country/venezuela/v67%20venezuela%20april%20conspiracy.html

[AP]

152. More verbatim facts (ie this poll) which aren't really verbatim?

Is that a fair characterization?

[Cocoa]

9. so maybe he'll lose when his term is up

that's the way democracy is supposed to work.

[BradCKY]

10. Well

Tell that to the Castro supporters on here. :)

[windansea]

13. venezuela has constitutional law for midterm recall

Chavez supported it...

democracy is based on laws and voting

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

16. Democracy is being bought and sold here and in Venezuela

and you seem to glory in it

[outinforce]

21. Isn't It Amazing?

Isn't it amazing how some argue so strenuously for democracy and for power to the people.

Until, that is, the people might democratically throw someone out of office.

Then, all of a sudden, these same folks come up with all sorts of reasons why a vote of the people will not be a true expression of democracy.

[windansea]

26. yes...very amazing

and leads one to think their true ideology is not a democratic one

[outinforce]

29. Gee....

Do You Really Think So?

Not only that, but to my estimation, they have an awfully low view of the electorate.

They seem to think that the electorate is basically stupid -- that they are easily manmipulated by the media or by some other "force". They seem to think that the electorate just can't seem to think things through for themselves, and to vote in a manner that the electorate wishes to vote.

These folks, of course, being so enlightened themselves, just know how the electorate should vote.

And when the electorate doesn't vote that way, it's never their fault. It's always the fault of someone else --the media or the electorete itself.

M<akes you wonder why they want power -- to serve the people or to serve themselves.

[AP]

33. imagine the human rights abuses that will be required to enforce the...

...opposition vision of VZ politics if they win and the power flow gets reversed and it starts flowing back up to the top.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

34. What is even more amazing.

Is the fact that half the people in our own country voted for a smirking, illiterate, mass murdering fuck head. Because the press told them Gore was liar, Clinton's cock would destroy them and the bush baby was cool to hang out with.

Truly amazing what media manipulation can do. Specially when the same moron runs like a bitch on Sept. 11th and is then portrayed as John Wayne Churchill. The sheeple buy all of it and here we are.

[outinforce]

36. Yep

One sure way to win over people who voted for * is to call them all "sheeple" and suggest that they were just too stupid to see the world they way you and I do.

That's a real winning strategy.

[9215]

42. You have to start someplace.

to wake people up. Unless, of course you are content to have them remain ignorant.

This country needs a massive dose of electroshock therapy.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

45. The people that think that Pres. Gore would have sipped tea with

the Taliban if Sept. 11th would have happened are stupid. In any case all my points about media manipulation of the masses should come as no surprise to anyone who visits this site, period. That is what purpose they serve, the people and their concerns be damned. Ask the 70% who thought Hussein was involved in Sept. 11th. Without any evidence people parrot what they see on TV.

Besides the election will probably come down to 50-50 give or take a few points. So you won't get that many converts whether you call them stupid or not. There's about a 30% of people that worship W even when he fucks them over. How do you explain that?

[noiretextatique]

162. this is a bogus argument

you are not going to "win anyone over"...they are either going to wake up...or not.
a winning strategy is to get people to the polls, and make sure all the votes are counted.
the opposite of that was gw bush's "winning strategy."

frankly, until we correct our own stolen election and coup, i think we should shut the hell up about venezula, haiti, zimbabwe...and iraq.

[AP]

39. Amen. The fascists' (in US & elsehwere) confidence in their ability to...

...manipulate elections must be through the roof in the last couple years. They've had some backsliding (Netherlands, Spain, Sweden, Germany, Zimbabwe, Brazil, Argentina, Ecuador, Lousianna), but they've had some big wins too (US, California, Minnesota, France).

It'll be interesting to see which column VZ ends up in.

[MrPrax]

57. I know what you mean...

When some Prez gets 92% of the vote but gets overthrown nonetheless...

Or when parties we are supposed to hate get elected, then it is a 'victory of terrorism'

Or that leftist parties can only win through deception (dupes!!), bags of Moscow/Havana gold or 'negative' advertising' using 'anger'...

If you vote for the 'right' party, then you are making an informed decision; if you vote left, then you are a wimp that requires the 'gubbermint' to wipe your ass...

Best results usually come when a country is starved economically by sanctions, threatened by war/invasion, harassed by paramilitaries and proxy armies in neighboring countries, weeping statutes, strategic shipments of 'food aid', assassination of political and popular moderates, roving armed gangs and an Opposition steadily fed by western gov't NGOs that are only helping to 'build democracy'...

Miss Democracy can never work unless it's handmaidens of Justice and Equality are close by...anything less is simply a 'cattle call' that merely annoints the 'common sense' of the various vested interests...

Simple systems produce simply democracies...LESSON...keep the system simple and you get really simple systems when 2% own most of the economy and people are more concerned with dodging bullets and finding enough garbage dump plastic to cover their tarpaper shacks...

[9215]

44. what do you mean "democratically thrown out"?

Google: Cisneros+Bush+Venezuela . After reading some links please repeat what you said.


PS. I know you are equally as pissed about the Bush selection for Prez, correct?

[redqueen]

68. It has something to do with California, electing Arnold

When we see that stuff happening here, why not expect it's the same anywhere the media is owned by the rich and powerful?

[AP]

22. I think the Davis recall was one of the most undemocratic elections I've

ever seen.

And you can search the archives if you want to see why.

[Cocoa]

25. as long as it's not an illegal coup

particularly a U.S.-supported one.

[windansea]

62. its not a coup

just a recall vote supported by their constitution

[AP]

79. It's an attack on an anti-neoliberal by the defenders of wealth.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

14. Still at it?

I admire your persistence.

[9215]

47. I'm not sure its

persistence. Based on windy's past statements its because his girlfriend won't....uh, do certain...uh,er things, unless he fights for the fascisti. At least that's what windy says. He pointed out that's she's gorgeous too.

[AP]

18. 7 of 8 TV stations and all the papers telling lies 24-7 about Chavez, plus

one poster at DU throwing everything at him but the kitchen sink.

What do you expect?

Well, at least he's 51% say they'll vote for him.

Venezuela’s Chavez Approval Ratings at 51% in Upward Trend

Thursday, Feb 12, 2004

By: Martín Sánchez, Venezuelanalysis.com

Caracas, Venezuela. Feb 12, 2004 (Venezuelanalysis.com).- According to a nationwide poll conducted in January, 51% of Venezuelans would ratify Hugo Chavez as the country´s President, if a recall referendum were to be carried out.



Chavez is currently facing a possible recall referendum on his mandate. Venezuela's National Electoral Council is currently validating and counting signatures collected by opponents of Chavez to request the recall referendum, which if approved could be held in June.



Venezuelan state news agency Venpres, quotes Ana Irene Mendez, president of the polling company Indaga as saying that it is the first time since April 2002 (date of the coup d'etat against Chavez) that more people think he should remain in office. The difference is about 3%.



The question used by Indaga in their poll was "If the recall referendum were to take place tomorrow, would you confirm President Chavez in office? Yes or No"

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1191

[not systems]

27. What are you going to do when he wins the recall vote?

Panic?

Cry?

Raise money door to door for a coup?

Wear a placard and march around calling for a gas boycott?

Vote for Bush?

Post more right wing hit pieces?

Say "He was elected democratically but is not governing democratically."

I fear for your mental heath and love life should he win the recall.

[windansea]

30. If a fair recall vote is held

and witnessed by Carter Center, UN etc...I am very confident Chavez will lose.

I am only supporting the constitutional and democratic right of venezuelans to vote on it.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go dig up more RW hit pieces from the Carter Center, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Reporters Without Borders, Barney Frank, some venezuelan bloggers, and non government controlled media in venezuela.

[not systems]

41. But what about when he wins the recall?

Will you be able to take it?

Up the dose a little to get by?

The list of liberal organizations you use over and over
have said far less negative things than your light skin privilege
preservation blogs and coup plotting second string front groups.

Yet you use them as a fig leaf over and over.

Your funny.

[windansea]

51. If Chavez wins a fair and supervised recall vote

I won't complain.

What's funny are supposed progressive democrats who try to excuse Chavez's obvious attempts to thwart constitutional law and democratic principles. What's hiding under that fig leaf??

[9215]

49. non-government controlled media in Venezuela?

It sure as hell is government controlled, by a foreign government that is rabidly anti Chavez. That you would imply it is independent is about the biggest crock I've heard from you.

[windansea]

60. please point out the media in Venezuela

that is controlled by a "foreign government that is rabidly anti Chavez" and prove it.

[9215]

74. See # 73 to get started. nt

[AP]

32. It will never end. The battle to defend wealth is perpetual.

[Cat Atomic]

35. You must understand how suspicious this sort of info is.

Considering the failed U.S.-backed coup.

I know nothing of Venezuela's recall process, and I'm not a Venezuelan, so I'm not going to pontificate on whether or not they should hold a recall election. That's their own business.

But, democracy is democracy. The people of Venezuela will make their decision when they vote.

[windansea]

40. I can understand your suspicions

but this is not a coup...the recall process is based on a constitutional law that Chavez supported..when he was more popular

and you are correct...it is vemezuelan's business to decide this by a democratic vote...

[rman]

48. then why don't you protest US meddling in Venezuela democracy?

if nothing else:
the coup,
and financing of Chavez opposition by various RW US organisations

[windansea]

53. I condemned the previous coups

by Chavez and his opposition.

I don't oppose NED funding of opposition groups as it is an NGO, is not controlled by the executive branch (ie bush) and this funding enjoys overwhelming congressional support. A Kerry admin will increase NED funding.

You are mistaken if you think 1.8 million dollars in the last few years has caused 3.5 million people in venezuela to sign the recall referendum.

[9215]

56. But NED is not the only source of outside influence. Again

Your scope is too narrow to address the problem. You need to google:

Cisneros+Venezuela+Bush.

[windansea]

59. Cisneros is venezuelan citizen

he is allowed to donate to opposition parties.

why don't you post your info that illegal foreign money or the CIA is proven to be involved in the CURRENT recall effort?

Chavez said he had proof of this in the previous coup and in the present recall...he never produced it. The only thing I've seen proven is the NED money which is no big secret.

[9215]

73. I've taken the time to dig this up, please have the

courtesy to read it.

Thank You in advance.



Goal of the opposition is to privatize Oil, note Ortega's involvment:


http://forums.transnationale.org/viewtopic.php?p=574

The goal: privatization of Venezuela's oil

A May 1 article in Mexico's Proceso says one of the aims of the coup leaders was "the privatization of PDVSA, turning it over to a U.S. company linked to President George Bush and the Spanish company Repsol; plus the sale of CITGO, the U.S. subsidiary of PDVSA, to Gustavo Cisneros and his partners in the north, as well as an end to the Venezuelan government's exclusive subsoil rights."

Cisneros, a longtime friend of former President George Bush, heads up a corporate empire stretching from the U.S. to Patagonia, the British Economist reports.

PDVSA is Latin America's largest company -- a lucrative prize awaiting the eager fingers of the privatizers. The maneuvers to achieve privatization of PDVSA began in earnest after Chavez became president. Though we are told that it was the workers who reacted against Chavez's changes, a March 2001 Wall Street Journal <http://www.transnationale.org/fiches/-852570645.htm> article disclosed a different picture, speaking of "top management and white-collar workers" at PDVSA "in open revolt against the government of President Hugo Chavez."

The WSJ reported: "hey have participated in ... noisy demonstrations and work stoppages to protest the recent appointment of three Chavez loyalists to PDVSA's board. ... Leaders of a newly organized PDVSA management union' aren't saying when or if they would strike. However, after holding a companywide meeting last weekend, they announced plans to carry out a series of gradual escalations of the conflict that could culminate in an indefinite strike ... The controversy quickly exploded when thousands of PDVSA executives signed full-page newspaper ads denouncing the new appointees as incompetent.'" On April 4, 2002, "PDVSA executives declared a work stoppage," the WSJ reported. In the lexicon of U.S. labor, these "strike" actions would be considered "lockouts" by management.

The leadership of the oil workers union, which operated in close alliance with the two political parties that ran Venezuela <http://www.transnationale.org/pays/ven.htm> for 40 years before Chavez, also became involved. And information continues to surface about the role played by the Confederation of Venezuelan Workers (CTV) leadership, especially its president, Carlos Ortega, in the coup attempt and his ongoing role in efforts to bring down Chavez. Tayler notes that former Venezuelan president Carlos Andres Perez, currently living in Miami, who is wanted on corruption charges in Venezuela <http://www.transnationale.org/pays/ven.htm> and has been accused of involvement in the plot, is a mentor of both Ortega and Carmona.




The April 2002 coup by media. http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/01/1560075.php
"The conspirators, including Carmona, met at the offices of Venevisión. They stayed until 2am to prepare "the next stage", along with Rafael Poleo (owner of El Nuevo Pais) and Gustavo Cisneros, a key figure in the coup. Cisneros, a multimillionaire of Cuban origin and the owner of Venevisión, runs a media empire - Organización Diego Cisneros. It has 70 outlets in 39 countries (9). Cisneros is a friend of George Bush senior: they play golf together and in 2001 the former US president holidayed in Cisneros's Venezuelan property. Both are keen on the privatisation of the PDVSA (10). Otto Reich, US assistant secretary of state for Interamerican affairs, admits to having spoken with Cisneros that night (11). At 4am on 12 April <2002>, to avoid bloodshed, Chávez allowed himself to be arrested and taken to the distant island of Orchila."
-- Maurice Lemoine. Le Monde Diplomatique. August 2002.
<http://mondediplo.com/2002/08/10venezuela> and
<http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2002/12/1551768.php> and
<http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=20&ItemID=2321>

[windansea]

75. thanks..read it

but this is info about 2002 coup..which I condemn...

the 2004 recall referendum is not even mentioned and thats what we are discussing now...the opposition is composed of millions of venezuelan citizens many who are former Chavez supporters who want to hold a constitutional midterm recall vote.

[9215]

78. Reply to #75. But what does this show?

We have a documented thug (Cisnaros) who is, as you say, a Venezuelan citizen. He runs a huge media empire named Venevision and, just coincidently, most of the TV stations in Venezuela are rabidly anti-Chavez. Chavez has bent over backwards to not crimp free Press in Venezuela and must be given some serious credit for this and the even handedness to a fault in the way he has treated the opposition. We have Cisneros, who, just coincidently, likes to yacht with the Bushies, trying to overthrow Chavez for his own "privatized oil" reasons in the coup of 2002. Cisneros fails in the attempt and then, suddenly, out of nowhere an opposition group springs up that has the exact same agenda as the coup and it is all a coincidence?

No way Jose', this is not a coincidence.

What becomes abundantly clear is that we have this thug who is not trying to overthrow Chavez out of a genuine interest in democracy as is proclaimed by you and other opposition supporters. How many thugs do you know who have a genuine interest in democracy? Cisnaros's goal, contrary to what the supporters of this recall are led to believe is to re-privatize his oil interests as indicated in the material I provided. There may be people in Venezuela opposed to Chavez who are wanting more democracy, but how much of that will happen if the old status quo is reinstituted, which it most surely will be if the opposition gets its way? It will be thugs running the show again. There may be an argument to be made against socializing oil, though I won't make it. There can be problems with socializing some industries. But what cannot be argued is that Chavez was popularly elected and the thug with foreign support behind his attempted ouster is no more interested in democracy than the Mafia is in insuring Christian principles, though alot of mafiosis attend church regularly.

It is the same old game my friend. Castro was demonized for throwing the Trafficante-- Marcellos crime syndicate out of Cuba and busting the back of the Cuban illegal drug trade. Qaddafi was demonized for his position that went against Western interests on OPEC oil back in the early 70's. You can't find a better work on the history of the drug trade than Alfred McCoy's "Politics of Heroin" (later edition). I know the label Communist or Socialist is hard for alot of people to hear without getting emotional. I don't really care about the labels. I just want to know what works for the PEOPLE. I actually worry about the death of free enterprise; it certainly brings good things to the world.

In Venezuela it is about big money thugs dictating policy. The crime the people commit is wanting to have the resources of their country benefit all.

[windansea]

82. re press freedom and Chavez evenhandedness

VENEZUELA IAPA Report

The reports of the past five years, ever since the Constitution of the so-called Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela was approved in 1999 to establish truth in reporting and the right of reply, have spoken eloquently on the systematic violations of freedom of speech and freedom of the press to the detriment of private media outlets, their managers, and their journalists. These violations have included attacks on the right to life, to personal safety, and to work.

Under the agreements signed on May 29, 2003 between the government and the opposition group known as Coordinadora Democrática — which were facilitated by OAS General Secretary César Gaviria, former U.S. President James Carter, and the United Nations — Venezuela agreed to find a constitutional, democratic, and electoral solution to the country’s severe governability crisis and sharp social polarization. This solution is on the verge of being thwarted by the authorities’ attempt to ignore the will of the people as expressed in the signatures in support of a presidential recall referendum and by the repressive, indiscriminate actions taken by the Armed Forces and the political police. This has led in the past two weeks to the jailing of nearly 400 people, along with others who are missing.
These cases include 14 journalists who have been attacked and three arrested, in addition to Carlos Colmenares, an RCTV cameraman who was shot and is now protected by a preventive order issued by the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights after he was assaulted again last August.

According to statistics of the International Federation of Journalists, the National Colegio of Journalists, and the National Union of Media Workers, the following journalists were assaulted: Carlos Montenegro (Televen), Vladimir Gallardo (El Impulso), Berenice Gómez (Últimas Noticias), Felipe Izquierdo (Univisión), Johnny Figarella (Globovisión), Henry Delgado (El Nacional), Edgar López (El Nacional), Janeth Carrasquilla (Globovisión), Billy Castro (Diario Impacto), Bernabé Ruiz (El Tiempo), Willimar Rodríguez (El Impacto), Reyna Díaz (El Tiempo), María Gómez (Telecaribe), and Omar González (Telecaribe). Alirio Rodríguez and Dainu Acosta, professors of journalism in Maracaibo, and Roberto Rasquin were arrested.

http://www.sipiapa.com/pulications/report_venezuela2004m.cfm

Repoters Without Borders Venezuela Report

http://www.rsf.fr/rsf/uk/rap2000/amer/venezuela.html

As far as Chavez evenhandedness with the opposition...in regard to the recall referendum...Chavez has been stalling this democratic process for over a year using intimidation, armed force, and legal hijinks to stall or thwart a constitutional right...he originally supported the law but now calls it a "massive fraud" He put up lots of hurdles to the signature gathering process including limiting it to 4 days...the opposition succeded anyway and produced 3.5 million signatures with fingerprints and ID numbers cross checked in front of observers from all sides.

Then he tried to have the signatures ruled invalid, got caught lying about this on National TV and called out by Carter Center and Barney Frank among others for trying to subvert the process. Next the division (sala) of the Supreme Court that oversees election law ruled the signatures valid, so now Chavez is trying to have another sala overule them.

this is evenhandedness?? hardly

[9215]

93. No, No, No, windy. You are not going to ignore the

elephant in the living room over this minor point.

Come on and exercise a little intellectual honesty here. I put the effort out to show you that elephant now don't go specious on me.

It's about the Cisneros crime family and their involvement in the oppositon and the coup. You are trying to seperate these groups but you cannot cut Cisneros out of it.

I'll talk about the minor points of Chavez's actions after you address this beast.

[windansea]

94. Cisneros controls some of the media

but assuming he controls the minds of 3.5 million venezuelans is degrading to venezuelans...does Murdoch control your mind?

Or Soros?

[AP]

114. The media thinks with one mind in VZ. And if you're denying the power of

the media to influence public opinion...well, that's a lonely battle to fight.

[9215]

117. Venevision is the largest media network in Venezuela and it

is run by a sleaze bag with a family history of murder, drug peddling, etc. as part of the court record in the US. This same sleazebag goes yachting with Poppy Bush and he has oil interests in Venezuela that he wants privatized. He has been involved in a coup to oust Chavez and his TV stations run 24/7, or thereabouts, pumping anti-Chavez propoganda. He now has, apparently, duped alot of people into believing his agenda is bringing democracy to the country when, in fact, he has shown that the only thing he has fought for is trying privatizing oil.
THUGS DO NOT FIGHT FOR DEMOCRACY!


This opposition movement, knowingly or unknowingly, is about Cisneros's personal financial interests not in the interest of promoting democracy.

THUGS DO NOT FIGHT FOR DEMOCRACY AND DEMOCRATIC CAUSES.

What exactly is it you do not understand windy?

[AP]

81. Say oppositon wins. What are chances of another recall once the opposition

is in control of the government? Will the opposition controlling ALL the media, and taking wealth and political power away from the poor, what's the chance that the oppressed majority would be able to call an early end to that government (which you know they're goint to want to do)?

[windansea]

84. they will still have the same constitutional laws

protecting their democratic rights

heres a good artcle about Venezuela, history, economy, wealth transfer, neoliberalism etc....written in 2001 but still on the mark.

Its on a pro opposition site but seems pretty fair

The Venezuelan Story: Revisiting the Conventional Wisdom
By Moises Naim, April 2001

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist. Madmen in authority, who hear voices in the air, are distilling their frenzy from some academic scribbler of a few years back. I am sure that the power of vested interests is vastly exaggerated compared with the gradual encroachment of ideas…. But, soon or late, it is ideas, not vested interests, which are dangerous for good or evil…."
- John Maynard Keynes. The General Theory of Employment, Interest, and Money, London: 1936.

It has become something of a cliché to use the rise to power of Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez as evidence of a brewing backlash against globalization, American-style capitalism, corruption and poverty. His fiery anti-globalization rhetoric, his strong alliance with Fidel Castro, his outreach to Saddam Hussein and Muammar Ghaddafi, his anti-Americanism and his sympathetic overtures to Colombia's guerrilla's and other insurgent groups in Latin America have all captured the world's attention.2 The popularity among Venezuelan voters of Chávez's anti-corruption, anti-globalization message is seen as the concrete manifestation of a popular sentiment that echoes worldwide.

http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=analysis/moises1001

[AP]

85. But without the ECONOMIC power, they can forget about democracy, right?

You'll admit that much, won't you?

They won't have any cultural power (ie, media) on their side in the slightest, which might be a bigger killer than that money. It's the other side of the same coin, at least.

[Judi Lynn]

121. Interesting, isn't it, that when the opposition is IN power

they nationalize, and when they are out of power, they clamor for privitization?

"Opposition business leaders have said openly that they want to depose Chavez so they can boost oil production or even privatize the country's cash cow . ... hey have been enraged ... over Chavez's efforts to take resources from the rich to aid the poor, who represent 80 percent of the population," Letta Tayler wrote in Newsday April 24.

Your link: http://forums.transnationale.org/viewtopic.php?p=574

Compare this to what happened when the impeachment attracting Carlos Andres Perez was the President:1974 Pres. Andres Carlos Perez nationalized the oil industry.
(WSJ, 1/05/00, p.A11)

1974 Pres. Andres Carlos Perez nationalized the central bank.
(WSJ, 1/05/00, p.A11)

1976-1996 The political establishment has accumulated a growing control over the country’s assets.
(WSJ, 6/7/96, p.A15)

1989 Carlos Andres Peres took office and instituted bold reform plans. Increases in fuel costs and government reforms in Venezuela sparked extensive rioting and looting with hundreds of people killed.
(WSJ, 4/15/96, p.A-1)(WSJ, 5/22/96, p.A-16)(WSJ, 4/27/98, p.A16)

1993 Pres. Carlos Andres Perez was impeached. He was later charged with misusing $17 million security fund for election debts and a lavish inauguration.
(SFC, 5/31/96, A16)

1996 May 30, Former Pres. Carlos Andres Perez was convicted on corruption charges. He was sentenced to prison for 28-months and fined for misappropriation of $17 million from a secret security spending fund.
(SFC, 5/31/96, A16)(SFC, 5/28/97, p.A12)

1996 Aug 1, The tax authorities increased the general sales tax to 16.5% from 12.5%. There has been a 108% rate of inflation over the last 12 months. Transparency Int’l., a Berlin base nongovernmental anticorruption organization, rate Venezuela as the most corrupt country in the Western hemisphere.
(WSJ, 8/9/96, p.A11)

1998 Apr, Former Pres. Carlos Andres Perez (76) and Cecilia Matos, his longtime mistress and personal secretary, were charged with depositing funds in US banks that far exceeded their earnings as public officials.
(SFC, 1/8/99, p.A16)

1998 Nov 8, In Venezuela a leftist coalition led by Hugo Chavez, the Patriotic Pole movement, won a majority in parliament. The Democratic Action and Copei parties won most of the 23 governorships. Former Pres. Carlos Andres Perez won a senate seat in Tachira. Corruption charges against Perez were later dropped due to senatorial immunity.
(SFC, 11/10/98, p.A10)(SFC, 1/8/99, p.A16)

1999 Oct 21, In Venezuela corruption cases against 2 former presidents, Carlos Andres Perez and Jaime Lusinchi, were reopened.
(SFC, 10/22/99, p.B4)

Timeline continues to December, 2003
http://timelines.ws/countries/VENEZUELA.HTML

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thank you for your excellent links, 9215!

[9215]

76. This might help with the Cisneros Crime Family

This is about the "Cisnaros crime family" with a court case involving murder, drugs, etc. Check out the important DU discussion at: http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=7072&forum=DCForumID71 :

http://www.kscourts.org/ca10/cases/2003/05/03-2009.htm
PUBLISH
UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
TENTH CIRCUIT

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Plaintiff - Appellee, v. LORENA CISNEROS, Defendant - Appellant. No. 03-2009
APPEAL FROM THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF NEW MEXICO
(D.C. No. CR-01-1709-MCA)

Dorothy C. Sanchez, Albuquerque, New Mexico, for Defendant - Appellant.
Steven Craig Yarbrough, Assistant United States Attorney (David C. Iglesias, United States Attorney, and Laura Fashing, Assistant United States Attorney, on the brief), Albuquerque, New Mexico, for Plaintiff - Appellee.

Before SEYMOUR,EBEL, and HARTZ, Circuit Judges.

EBEL, Circuit Judge.

Lorena Cisneros appeals an order of the United States District Court for the District of New Mexico upholding the determination by a magistrate judge of that court that Cisneros be detained pending trial. By ordering her detention pending trial, the New Mexico district court revoked a prior order of a federal magistrate judge in Arizona that had permitted Cisneros's conditional release until trial. Cisneros argues on appeal that the New Mexico district court did not have the authority to reconsider the original release order and, even if it did, it should have concluded as a result of its review under the Bail Reform Act, 18 U.S.C. § 3141 et seq., that Cisneros was entitled to conditional release pending trial. We hold that the New Mexico district court was authorized to reconsider the Arizona magistrate judge's release order, and we affirm the district court order denying pretrial release to Cisneros in this case.
I.
This case arises out of the government's investigation and pending prosecution of an alleged criminal enterprise known as the Cisneros Organization. The Cisneros Organization has been under investigation by state and federal authorities since at least 1995, and members of the Organization are alleged to have committed murder; manufactured and distributed methamphetamine, cocaine, and marijuana; laundered money generated by criminal activity; possessed and sold stolen vehicles; and tampered with and intimidated witnesses against them in criminal prosecutions, including through the murder of such witnesses. Indeed, in 1998, state prosecutors were forced to file a motion dismissing their case against the Cisneros Organization after three prosecution witnesses were murdered. The Cisneros Organization allegedly operates in New Mexico and Arizona, and one of its leaders is Luis Cisneros, the husband of Lorena Cisneros ("Cisneros"), the appellant in the instant case.
On September 19, 2002, a federal grand jury in New Mexico returned a seventeen-count, second superseding indictment against nine alleged members of the Cisneros Organization. Lorena Cisneros was named in two counts of the indictment: the counts alleging a Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Conspiracy (RICO conspiracy) (count two), 18 U.S.C. § 1962(d), and a Stolen Vehicle Conspiracy (count fifteen), 18 U.S.C. §§ 511, 2312, 2313, 2321. Among the specific predicate acts of racketeering activity underlying the RICO conspiracy charge was an alleged conspiracy to murder a potential witnesses against the Cisneros Organization, Jose Moreno, Sr. Moreno and his son were murdered in their home on January 12, 2000.
Lorena Cisneros was arrested on September 20, 2002, in Phoenix, Arizona, where she is a resident, on a warrant issued by the New Mexico district court. Pursuant to Fed. R. Crim. P. 40, Cisneros was brought before a magistrate judge in Phoenix, the government moved to have her detained pending trial, and a detention hearing was held there by Magistrate Judge Lawrence O. Anderson over several days in September and October 2002. On October 4, 2002, Judge Anderson issued an order denying the government's request that Cisneros be detained until trial. Judge Anderson concluded that, under the Bail Reform Act, 18 U.S.C. § 3142(e)(g), the government had not sustained its burden of proof by a preponderance of the evidence that Cisneros was a serious flight risk, nor had it sustained its burden of proof by clear and convincing evidence that Cisneros was a danger to the community. Accordingly, Judge Anderson ordered her released on her own recognizance, but he imposed conditions on her release. The conditions included restricted travel, prohibitions on communicating with certain individuals believed to be part of the Cisneros Organization, and required drug testing. Judge Anderson also ordered Cisneros to appear in New Mexico district court to be arraigned on the charges in the indictment.

much more

[9215]

77. and the cozy link to the BFEE

This link has a fantastic discussion: http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=12944&forum=DCForumID61&omm=0

George Bush senior to spend luxury holiday with Gustavo Cisneros
more coup plotting against the democratically elected Chavez. Round three coming up, sad to say.
Check those Fanjul brothers, Alfi and Jose. Throw their names into Google for some more information about how foreign citizen control US politics.
<clips>
Former US President George P. Bush is heading to the Dominican Republic for a luxury holiday, where he will spend quality time with anti-government Venezuelan media tycoon Gustavo Cisneros, who President Hugo Chavez Frias accuses of leading a push for a coup d'etat to have him forcibly removed from office.
The Venezuelan leader has threatened to take action against many privately-owned media companies ... particularly the four privately-owned TV stations ... for broadcasting "seditious opposition propaganda" and a series of advertisements urging Venezuelans to support the work stoppage, which has had devastating effects on the country's economy.
Bush is set to arrive on the Caribbean island next Tuesday, where he will stay at the Casa de Campo resort owned by the Fanjul brothers, Alfi and Jose ... he will then join the Venezuelan media tycoon in several rounds of golf in the town of La Romana.
There are strong indications that Bush will also meet secretly with corruption-impeached former Venezuelan President Carlos Andres Perez.
This will be Cisneros' second meeting with a former US President in less than a month, after holding talks with Jimmy Carter in Caracas several weeks ago. Carter returned to Venezuela to break the political deadlock following a direct invitation from Cisneros to do so.
<http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=2092>

[tlcandie]

37. If people want to know the truth, I would suggest checking out LBN

and listening to those who debunk all of this with straight shootin' facts!

Just look for posts via windansea and you will find TONS of it! :hi:

[el_gato]

43. pathetic anti-Chavez propaganda

The elite just can't stand the fact that someone is in control who
does not serve the interests of the elite.

An alternative that people can point to is the biggest fear of the fascist elite.

But the merchants of death thrive on misery of the masses.

I do find it funny how anybody who doesn't happily serve uber-wealthy is smeared again and again. Hell they were calling Aristide a thug meanwhile the opposition hit men were out gunning people down in the street and these very same people steadfastly ignore it.

I find it all very disgusting.

[SoCalDem]

61. Sounds like.."this popular young president"

or "oooh.. close race", or "50-50 nation", or "Bush scores high on defense", or "people trust Bush to protect them".. etc etc etc..

Hugo may indeed lose (or lose his life) because of the media , but he's a fighter..

It's too bad that we have such a hard time getting both sides, equally represented..

I almost wish he would sever relations with the US, and get all the CIA spooks out of his country.. I think, if he had less "intervention", things would calm down..

[tom_paine]

66. el_gato, I generally respect your posts but must disagree on this one

I am no more certain that these are manipulated results than I am of the many polls which show Kerry up by 8-10 pts.

It is possible that BOTH Bush AND Chavez are bad guys, generally speaking. One being a Tyrant does not exclude the other for being so.

Not sure as to which side I believe. It is more accurate to say that I disbelieve BOTH SIDES as self-serving potnetial liars.

ANY knee-jerk reaction such as yours shuts down critical thought with a rush of "anger hormones".

I am NOT bashing Cahvez specifically here, but EVERRYONE has their bad side and for politicians of all stripes it is doubly so.

Think about it. Did fighting Hitler make Stalin a Good Guy?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

69. So far he has been the closest thing they've had to a real president.

The last guy they had was responsible for thousands of deaths and a terrible economy. As always he was backed by the oligarchy.

If he has such a bad side why isn't every leader of the so called opposition in jail? He not only respected the court's decisions on the matter. He has had to deal with 24/7 personal attacks on a more than biased media. Other people and true dictators would not have had that much patience with opponents that want them dead.

[tom_paine]

70. All good points.

I said I wasn't sure who to believe. I said I am on the fence on this one.

I do know I believe Chavez over Bush...of course it would take Hitler or Stalin by comparison to even make it a wash, trustworthy-wise.

I guess we will see come Venezuelan election day. Hopefully, their voting system is more trustworthy than ours.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

71. Let's hope so. I know he tends to overdo some of the rhetoric.

But you should see the way poor people respond to this guy. I would love to see bush or even Clinton drive around the country standing on the back of a pick up truck, and receive such treatment from the people.

[bobbyboucher]

83. Yaaaahoooooo! Hoooray!

Another Chavez attack thread by Windy!

Don't tell me, your girlfriend told you it is true.

[windansea]

86. uh huh

thanks for the kick

[bobbyboucher]

100. Here's another kick.

Don't tell me, your girlfriend told you to say that.

FYI, you got no cred.

[Sterling]

87. Do you know any other tunes?

:eyes" some mission you are on, lol.

[windansea]

88. heh

it's a good mission

[Andy_Stephenson]

89. ES&S is counting the vote there.

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=12179

:tinfoilhat:

Oh wait...no tinfoil needed...That is Chuck Hagel's company.

[Exgeneral]

91. Then the propaganda in this thread is unecessary

unless they fear that after the theft, the unpolled MAJORITY will object?

[windansea]

92. handy excuse

for Chavistas

[Exgeneral]

95. como no

rubio?

[windansea]

111. no

tu quieres una??

[ConsAreLiars]

96. Who exactly is telling this story? Follow the money

Who is distributing it?
http://www.hacer.org/history.php
HACER was founded by officers of the Atlas Economic Research Foundation as a part of that organization's mission to assist in "organizing, developing, and raising funds for institutes throughout the world whose purpose is the promotion of authoritative studies on major public policy issues in the public interest."

What do the founders want?

http://www.atlasusa.org/aboutatlas/index.php?refer=aboutatlas
The Atlas Vision
To achieve a society of free and responsible individuals, based upon private property rights, limited government under the rule of law and the market order.

So, who do they serve?
http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Atlas_Economic_Research_Foundation

Can you say "Richard Mellon Scaife?"

I knew you could.

(edit subject title & first line for clarity)

[windansea]

99. um....its an IPS article

:tinfoilhat:

not created by Hacer

[ConsAreLiars]

105. Hacer is pushing the story - you provided the link to Hacer

More about Atlas, the founder of your email alert service.

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Atlas_Economic_Research_Foundation

Funding

The foundation's funding comes from corporate and institutional investors.

During 2002, $193,500 of the organisation's funding came from the Earhart Foundation, $100,000 from the Sarah Scaife Foundation, and $50,000 from the Carthage Foundation. The Earhart Foundation has given more than $1m since 1995. <2>

Known corporate donors include ExxonMobil, who gave the foundation $50,000 during 2002. <3>

[Redleg]

102. Good work, Bumbler.

LOL!

[ConsAreLiars]

119. Well, I've been watching these anti-Chavez threads for a while

It was pretty obvious that these threads reflected the talking points being put out by the Exxon-Mobil, PNAC, globalization, privatization, etc. interests. So I decided to fact-check my beliefs by looking into the origins of this particular post. Lo and behold, the money behind the email-letter cited was exactly what I expected. It couldn't have been more obvious unless the source cited had been GOPTeamLeader.com, or maybe CIA.gov.

[leesa]

97. Are these the same pollsters that work for the Bush Crime Family?

Chavez truly wants the best for his people and the corporatists of America cannot have that. No one is allowed to use their own resources for their own people.

[Redleg]

101. You're a one-trick pony. How much money is the anti-Chavez

faction paying you to spread this propaganda?

[Redleg]

103. Are you Otto Reich by any chance?

I wouldn't be surprised.

[windansea]

106. Fidel???

:hi:

[Redleg]

109. Hardly.

I'm just trying to figure out what your game is.

[bvar22]

110. What's your first guess?

You're right. Good work if you can find it.

[windansea]

112. golf

I'm a +2

[Media_Lies_Daily]

108. Hmmm. I wonder who's providing the funding for those...

...alleged polling groups? Could it be their favorite Uncle who lives in the North?

[ConsAreLiars]

113. About the pollsters used to get these numbers to the Scaife operatives

http://www.consultores21.com/who_we_are.htm
-------------
Consultores 21, S.A., is a consulting company of market and public opinion research, founded in 1984 by a group of professionals specialized in Economy, Social and Communication Sciences. With a solid national and international experience it has, among its principal clients, the most important national and international companies in Venezuela. Furthermore, Consultores 21, S.A. has, on a permanent basis, been providing strategic and research consultation in other Latin American countries.
...
We hold a wide network of relations in almost all Latin American countries, which permits us to offer our consulting and research services under established quality standards in every country. Wherever we work, we always keep a close relation with our clients.
-------------

And who are those clients they "keep a close relationship with"?
http://www.consultores21.com/clients.htm
-------------
l Alcaldía del Municipio Sucre
l Alitalia
l Asociación Civil Prohombre
l Amoco
l Banco Central de Venezuela
l Banco Mercantil
l Banco Provincial (Grupo BBV)
l Banco Venezuela (Grupo Santander)
l Banesco
l Bayer de Venezuela
l C.A. Cigarrera Bigott,Sucs.
l C.A. La Electricidad de Caracas
l Cadena Capriles
l Coca-Cola
l Compañía Anónima Nacional Teléfonos de Venezuela (CANTV)
l Consejo Nacional para la Promoción de Inversiones (CONAPRI)
l Corp Banca
l Corporación Andina de Fomento (CAF)
l Corporación Remmore
l Cyanamid
-------------
Well, that's just A thru C.

===================================================================

The other one, Datanálisis, has little info in English http://www.datanalisis.com/english.asp Can't tell much about them but they look like a typical market research operation with a combination of polling and pushing services.

Datanálisis affiliated with the APOYA group:
http://www.apoyo.com/english/aboutus/red_alianzas.asp

-------------
The APOYO Group was founded by Felipe Ortiz de Zevallos in 1977, and consists at the moment of eight companies offering a variety of professional services. In twenty-five years of existence, due to its permanent vocation for excellence it has achieved a position of leadership and recognition in the different services it renders.

APOYO's mission is to offer specialized information and knowledge with the purpose of generating value for its clients' entrepreneurial or institutional decisions.

Its vision is that of building a valuable outside information and knowledge source for leading executives in their organizations who wish to achieve global competitiveness.
-------------
No Client list, but a testimonials page gives a clue about who they serve:
http://www.apoyo.com/english/aboutus/testimonios.asp

====================================================================

[windansea]

115. more on these pollsters

both were accurate in predicting past Chavez victories

[not systems]

116. I guess all streaks have to end.

:nopity:

How's your love life going to be then.

:scared:

Did you hear what Barney Frank said?

What about Aristides collection of infant remains?

Do you think Chavez has some too?

[NightTrain]

123. It certainly helps the opposition to own 99% of the media in Venezuela!

I'll bet they actually make Pox News look "fair and balanced."

[Bucky]

124. Chavez is a bad administrator, bad economist, ineffective pol.

But the good news is that the people are able to get rid of him in an honest election. I don't approve of the Bushies using the CIA to screw with his legitimacy. But the Venezuelans I know here in Houston are pretty progressive and they regard Chavez as little more than a con artist.

[Judi Lynn]

125. Would you point us to some links to articles

bearing out Chavez's incompentance as an administrator, economist, politician?

How would his record compare against the record of Carlos Andres Perez? See below:

1974 Pres. Andres Carlos Perez nationalized the oil industry.
(WSJ, 1/05/00, p.A11)

1974 Pres. Andres Carlos Perez nationalized the central bank.
(WSJ, 1/05/00, p.A11)

1976-1996 The political establishment has accumulated a growing control over the country’s assets.
(WSJ, 6/7/96, p.A15)

1989 Carlos Andres Peres took office and instituted bold reform plans. Increases in fuel costs and government reforms in Venezuela sparked extensive rioting and looting with hundreds of people killed.
(WSJ, 4/15/96, p.A-1)(WSJ, 5/22/96, p.A-16)(WSJ, 4/27/98, p.A16)

1993 Pres. Carlos Andres Perez was impeached. He was later charged with misusing $17 million security fund for election debts and a lavish inauguration.
(SFC, 5/31/96, A16)

1996 May 30, Former Pres. Carlos Andres Perez was convicted on corruption charges. He was sentenced to prison for 28-months and fined for misappropriation of $17 million from a secret security spending fund.
(SFC, 5/31/96, A16)(SFC, 5/28/97, p.A12)

1996 Aug 1, The tax authorities increased the general sales tax to 16.5% from 12.5%. There has been a 108% rate of inflation over the last 12 months. Transparency Int’l., a Berlin base nongovernmental anticorruption organization, rate Venezuela as the most corrupt country in the Western hemisphere.
(WSJ, 8/9/96, p.A11)

1998 Apr, Former Pres. Carlos Andres Perez (76) and Cecilia Matos, his longtime mistress and personal secretary, were charged with depositing funds in US banks that far exceeded their earnings as public officials.
(SFC, 1/8/99, p.A16)

1998 Nov 8, In Venezuela a leftist coalition led by Hugo Chavez, the Patriotic Pole movement, won a majority in parliament. The Democratic Action and Copei parties won most of the 23 governorships. Former Pres. Carlos Andres Perez won a senate seat in Tachira. Corruption charges against Perez were later dropped due to senatorial immunity.
(SFC, 11/10/98, p.A10)(SFC, 1/8/99, p.A16)

1999 Oct 21, In Venezuela corruption cases against 2 former presidents, Carlos Andres Perez and Jaime Lusinchi, were reopened.
(SFC, 10/22/99, p.B4)

Timeline continues to December, 2003
http://timelines.ws/countries/VENEZUELA.HTML

[windansea]

137. gee...you left out a few

wonder why?? (the last parts are most important)

1992 Feb 4, In Caracas, Venezuela, there was a coup attempt but Lt. Col. Chavez failed to capture the presidential Palace and was forced to surrender. He served 2 years in prison.
(WSJ, 6/12/03, p.A10)

1992 Nov 27, In Venezuela some 15,000 rebel forces under Lt. Col. Hugo Chavez tried but failed to overthrow President Carlos Andres Perez for the second time in 10 months. The coup left dozens dead and Chavez was jailed for 2 years and then pardoned by Pres. Rafael Caldera. Chavez was elected president Dec 6, 1998.

1999 Apr 10, Pres. Chavez said he would extend his term from 5 to 10 years. He had already threatened to dissolve Congress and the Supreme Court.

1999 Jul 25, A Constituent Assembly to rewrite the constitution was scheduled for elections.

1999 Jul 26, In Venezuela candidates from the Fifth Republic Movement, supported by Pres. Chavez, won over 80% of the 131 constituent assembly seats in preliminary results. Less than half the eligible voters cast ballots

1999 Aug 25, In Venezuela the constitutional assembly declared a legislative emergency and usurped most of the functions of Congress.

1999 Aug 30, The constitutional assembly stripped the opposition-controlled Congress of its last remaining powers.

1999 Sep 9, In Venezuela the Constitutional Assembly agreed to reverse its order for Congress to shut down and allowed Congress to resume normal activities in an accord mediated by the Catholic Church.

1999 The economic crises threw some 600,000 people out of work and led to a major increase in crime

2000 Apr 16, It was reported that the murder rate had reached some 21 per day. Cars were reported to be stolen every 10 minutes

2000 Jul 30, In Venezuela national elections were scheduled. 56% of the populace turned out and endorsed Pres. Chavez to a 6-year term by a 59 to 37% margin over Francisco Arias. Chavez’s Fifth Republic Movement also won 9 of 23 state governor races and a simple majority of the legislature. The new constitution gave voters the right to revoke the president’s mandate after 3 years by referendum.

2001 Dec 31, In Caracas street vendors began selling pre-recorded CDs of banging pots to help drown out the long-winded speeches of Pres. Chavez. Earlier protests included the banging of pots and pans and became known as "cacerolazes." Approval ratings for Chavez had dropped from 80% to just over 50% in recent months

2002 Apr 11, The military removed Pres. Chavez from power after at least 12 demonstrators were killed as some 150-200k marched on the presidential palace in Caracas. A tape, later released, contained the voice of Pres. Chavez ordering the activation of "Plan Avila," an emergency state security plan.

2002 Apr 12, In Venezuela Pedro Carmona Estanga, head of a business association, was installed as interim president. A summit of Latin American leaders criticized the ouster of Hugo Chavez. Chavez resigned under pressure from the country's divided military but was returned to office two days later.

2002 Jun 19, In Venezuela Pres. Chavez made an offer for a referendum on his rule in 2003.

2003 Jan 15, Venezuela's VP said the government would respect the high court if it approves a Feb. 2 referendum on President Hugo Chavez's rule.

2003 Apr 11, The Venezuela government of Hugo Chavez and his opponents agreed to a plan for a referendum on his presidency, and the chief of state pledged to leave office if he loses.

2003 Dec 2, In Venezuela opposition leaders claimed that more than 3.6 million people had signed a petition demanding a recall referendum on Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.

which brings to the present

One of the favorite phrases of Venezuelan leader Hugo Chavez is that "I am a servant of the people, and when the people does not want me anymore, I will leave office."

In is November TV address...Chavez said:

Cornered, Chavez then fought back in his weekly TV-show Alo Presidente ("Hello President"). Here are some of his comments:

" - Referendum to remove Chávez? That is not possible, don't waste time. I will not go in a referendum, I say that to the country and the world. It's like this: I won't go."

" - Referendum to remove Chávez? Look, that won't happen, forget about it. It won't happen."

" - Ah, no, no, forget about fairytales."

" - Not even if we suppose that they hold that referendum and get 90% of the votes, I will not leave. Forget it. I will not leave."

Is this a democrat speaking? Or a de-facto dictator?

(Source: Official transcript 'Aló Presidente' N°128, Petare, 24/NOV/2002 04:59 PM)
http://noticias.eluniversal.com/2002/11/25/25106AA.shtml

So why won't Chavez agree to free and democratic elections today in Venezuela?

[Judi Lynn]

141. There's nothing on your list which remotely approaches

the sheer criminality and brute stupidity and greed of the material on Carlos Andres Perez. Please.

Using "El Univesal's" propaganda won't get you any converts on a DEMOCRATIC MESSAGE BOARD.

Hugo Chavez was NOT impeached for corruption, he didn't deposit, with his mistress, more money than he legally makes, he didn't order the gunning down of hundreds, in some sources, up to a thousand, in another, and up to 2,000 in another source Venezuelan poor people driven to desperation after raising prices for their bus transportation, etc. Carlos Andres was impleached, he did try to squirrel away more money, FROM SOMEWHERE, than he legally owned, he DID bring on such financial destruction to the poor they rioted in rage and desperation and got mowed down in great numbers, in the event known as "El Caracazo."

Your "flippancy," as you imagine it doesn't add dignity to your reputation here, and you surely could use it.

[windansea]

146. hehhe hehehe

El Universal propaganda??? the quotes of Chavez on the recall were taken from an official transcript of a speech given on National TV and watched by millions.

Chavez will be tried for treason and corruption after he is voted out of office...it's a bit difficult to do right now as he has near dictatorial powers...be patient

[Judi Lynn]

149. Tried for treason and corruption?

Why don't you provide a source for that?

No, your feverish ravings are not sufficient.

I'm addressing the impeachment for corruption of the filthy scum, Carlos Andrez Perez, the darling of the opposition. No one came forward to protest his sheer filth from your group during his Presidency.

We ALL grasp the elements at work in this story. You embarrass yourself, if you only had the wit to sense it, by attempting to frolic and cavort here, when most of us are actually here to trade information and learn something real.

[windansea]

159. a couple for starters

The collapse of Petroleos de Venezuela (PDVSA) shocks even Chavez' followers

VHeadline.com commentarist Gustavo Coronel writes: Aporrea.org is the most aggressive chavista site that can be found on the web ... in many ways it can be said to be the vulgar, little brother of Venezuelanalysis.com since it usually says what the other site will prefer not to say.

Lately, it has been voicing extreme concern over the increasing management mess at Petroleos de Venezuela (PDVSA) and, in an article written by Ernestina Guevara, there is an expose of high levels of corruption, especially in PDVSA's Marketing Division.

The article recognizes the validity of claims made by former PDVSA legal counsel, Fabian Chacon (recently sacked by PDVSA president Ali Rodriguez Araque) to the effect that gasoline smuggling in gigantic volumes to Colombia and Brazil is under the protection of high PDVSA managers ... as high as those at the level of the institution's presidency.

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=14789

Venezuela and corruption
Veninvestor.com 12 Nov 2003

By Alexandra Beech and Maritza Ramirez de Agena

Veninvestor.com

The author of the article "Curbing Corruption in Venezuela" Gustavo Coronel has said that corruption in Venezuela has three main causes: motive, opportunity and impunity. Motive: "thousands of public employees who feel underpaid and distrusted by the community, feel that they might as well get what they can while they can". Opportunity: presented by the combination of "ineptness with lack of controls and administrative procedures, chaotic management and indifferent bureaucrats." Impunity: "No one is punished, no one is indicted". Coronel states that around $10 billion have been stolen during Chavez's administration and no one has been made accountable.

Corruption can be defined as the use of a position of trust for dishonest gain for that person or third ones, and against the general interest of the institution or community. In general it is considered to be a corrupt behavior the abuse of power, the collection of illegal commissions and presents, the illegal contribution to finance political parties, total or partial fraud or evasion of taxes and bribery. 1

While corruption in Latin America is alarming, Venezuela has one of the worse Corruption Perception Index (CPI) of the region. The corruption perception index is calculated by combining two measuring methods. First, standard interviews are conducted among experts in corruption. Second, opinion polls are carried out among business executives and risk analysts. The information collected from the polls is less precise that the information collected from the experts, but it is valuable because it represents the general opinion in a particular country.2

According to Transparency International, the corruption perception index (CPI) score of Venezuela for the year 2002 was of 2.5. The ranges of the (CPI) are between 10 (highly clean) and 0 (highly corrupt). Venezuela is today the fourth most corrupt country in Latin America, only perceived as more "honest" than Ecuador, Haiti and Paraguay.3

more...

http://www.transparency.org/cgi-bin/dcn-read.pl?citID=90119

[Judi Lynn]

186. Here's something else written by your author, Gustavo Coronel

Simply breathtaking:

Saturday, 21. June 2003, 00:19
Gustavo Coronel waxes lyrical: Once more, it's Mango time...!
Venezuela's Electronic News
Posted: Wednesday, June 11, 2003
By: Gustavo Coronel

VHeadline.com commentarist Gustavo Coronel writes: In Sabana del Medio, where I have my home, some 20 kilometers west of Valencia, the time of mangoes has come again. The whole area abounds in ancestral mango trees.

Each year the process is repeated. In March the trees are in full bloom, in April the sporadic rains start, get to be more frequent in May, giving almost everybody a mild case of intestinal upset called "mayo."

By the end of May the fruit is well developed and slowly turning color. In June, it ripens and mangoes start falling down ... blanketing the countryside and the streets of the village without the villagers paying much attention.

Nobody would be seen picking a mango from the ground since this would entail losing face, admitting to being needy enough to eat ... a mango, of all things. And yet, the mango is one of the most delicious fruits we can eat ... the varieties are endless.

On my property, I planted about 15 mango trees and each one carries a different variety of fruit. The smaller ones, called "de bocado," are probably the best in flavor. Bocado means that one can eat such a mango almost in single bite due to its tiny size. They're usually very compact and resistant to the bite.
(snip/...)

http://adam.antville.org/stories/424414/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I didn't know you were a Gustavo Coronel fan. Some of us have whooped it up at his expense either here or at another website.

He's a real winner.

Gustavo

[Bridget Burke]

126. I know some Venezuelans here in Houston, too.

Nice, educated, middle- to upper-class people. Their politics reflect their station in life.

Generally, poor Venezuelans stay in Venezuela. At least, they don't make it to Texas--too far.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

127. I've known a ton throughout my lifetime, usually well off financially.

The one thing they share is that they're almost as snobbish and racist as Argentinians. Not all but a good 90% that I've come across.

[AP]

128. "the Venezuelans I know...in Houston"!!! Oh come on! IN HOUSTON!!!!

That's like saying "all the sailors I know at the yacht club think the dockworkers strike in Oakland is wrong."

[Judi Lynn]

131. Yeah, I think......

The "logic" complete eludes me, I'm tellin' ya. :crazy: :silly:

Maybe it's a TGIF thang. :beer: :beer: :beer:

[lostnfound]

170. So funny! Yes, the Venezuelans here are oilmen..

and stand to make much more money if Chavez is forced out and replaced with a right-wing government.

[not systems]

135. windansea is no more.

It is so sad to see someones income stream interrupted.

:toast:

[AP]

138. Huh?

Tombstoned.

[Judi Lynn]

143. The opposition propaganda peddler got off a post at 4:47,

Just a few minutes ago.

Looks as if we'll be blessed with his wisdom a bit longer.

[not systems]

147. he is back.

:eyes:

Spoke to soon.

[0007]

173. Goodbye `O buddy - it was nice propaganda while it lasted

:toast:

[noiretextatique]

164. how OLD is this article? the other one you posted is from 2002

is this one from 2001?

[Alenne]

165. Feb 5, 2003

It seems that a certain poster has been passing old articles off as recent.

[noiretextatique]

167. hmmm...one might question his credibility

it seems someone needs a new calendar :hi:

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

168. Someone also needs to stop plagiarizing, lying about the

contents of photos and passing bogus letters comparing Chavez to Mao and Stalin.

[windansea]

171. sure about that?

"The opposition, meanwhile, continues its massive campaign to collect signatures for a series of ballot initiatives aimed at removing Chávez from office. Leaders claimed to have more than four million signatures after the weekend."

what was the date of the signature collection???

google away and let me know...

[Alenne]

172. I am wrong. It was Feb 6. 2003.

http://ca.fullcoverage.yahoo.com/fc/BreakingCA/Venezuela/news_stories_1.html

The article came from Yahoo. It is old.

[windansea]

176. look

the 3.4 million sigantures were collected December 2003

how can this article (original post) be from Feb 2003??

The opposition says it handed in 3.4 million pro-referendum signatures in December, well above the 2.4 million required to trigger a vote.

Monday, March 1, 2004 Posted: 5:27 PM EST (2227 GMT)
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americas/03/01/venezuela.reut/

[Darranar]

177. The article said that they were COLLECTING signatures...

not that they had HANDED IN any signatures.

BTW, what strike began in December and ended Monday, February 2, 2004?

[windansea]

180. they collected the signatures during 4 days in DEC 2003

:shrug:

[Darranar]

182. See post #178...

and if that doesn't convince you, answer my question in the post above.

[Alenne]

178. Here is the same article.

It was posted on FR Feb. 6, 2003. This article is old.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/837316/posts

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

179. This just gets more pathetic by the post.

[Vladimir]

181. Reposting

free republic material? Deary deary me...

No, no, noooooo... you don't love me... and I know now....

V

[Tinoire]

188. Similar mailing lists...

One just must wonder... But naw- couldn't be... Must just be another coincidence :shrug:

[Darranar]

174. Sure about that?

The firm's polls measure Chávez's popularity, dating to before the nationwide strike began Dec 2 and through the 57th day of the conflict, which ended Monday.

From the CIA World Factbook:

Venezuela continues to be highly dependent on the petroleum sector, which accounts for roughly one-third of GDP, around 80% of export earnings, and more than half of government operating revenues. Despite higher oil prices at the end of 2002 and into 2003, domestic political instability, culminating in a two-month national oil strike from December 2002 to February 2003, temporarily halted economic activity. The economy is likely to remain in a recession in 2003, after sinking an estimated 8.9 percent in 2002.

[eridani]

166. Roosevelt loses to Wilkie in a landslide

Must have happened--the telephone poll in 1936 said so. Now, lemme think--who owned phones in 1936, and who didn't?

[Darranar]

175. This is more than a year out of date...

care to try something a little more recent?

[windansea]

183. Is this LBN?

funny how Chavez lovers keep posting stuff from 2002 here

[FlemingsGhost]

184. Links?

Thanks.

[Darranar]

185. Naturally...

if it has to do with the coup, its date may well be sometime in April 2002, or around then.

If someone presented an article as something recent, when in fact it wasn't so (as you have now done, twice) that would be misleading, and it would be so regardless of which side posted it.

[windansea]

187. I didn't post the article as recent

I just posted it...check the OP

[Vladimir]

189. Oh man you crack me up

I love you man, I really do.

V

[Tinoire]

190. Gosh- It's sure bad to be busted AGAIN

:nopity: playing Pathetique in A Minor

You'd be amusing if real people weren't dying at the hands of your "good" NED, founded and funded by the most vile Right-wing neo-cons out there, and dying. But damn, I keep forgetting, they're just stupid brown/black people who don't know enough to vote for the right Yanqui loving elitists.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

191. But remember, Democrats support it so it's good.

You see there have never been any greedy, imperialist or just plain confused Democrats in the history of the republic.

[Tinoire]

192. If the tent is THAT big- count me outside!

I do not consider those people Democrats. They're merely Republicans having a personality difference with the idiots they voted for in the past- to include _Dubya.

Since their judgement is that historically faulty, I sure don't want my vote or my party diluted with their rotten ideology.

John McCain, Evan Bayh, Sam Nunn for VP :puke:

A few years ago it was "Colin Powell is a 'good' man". Yeah right :eyes:

Urgh! Another glass of red I think because the damn tent ain't that big.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

193. Colin Powell, John MCain, Evan Bayh, Otto Reich, Roger Noriega

FUCK'EM, FUCK 'EM ALL. I BURY THOSE COCKROACHES!!!!!

[not systems]

194. windy is really gone now.

:toast:

Maybe he will make a comeback?

[Tinoire]

195. OMG- Just got a PM about that!

Was talking to a good DU friend when I read the PM from another great DU friend and just YELLED "OMG - the DU Admin just ruined all my fun!"

What a b.e.a.u.t.i.f.u.l. site!


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=135441

DU Admin, Mods- We love you to death! :loveya:

But when the mouse is that good, will you please, meow, please, pretty please, meow, let us play with it a little more? ;)



We probably played with that one long enough though- it was really beginning to stink.

:loveya:

[not systems]

196. His unraveling over the last week...

should make it clear which way is up in this story for anyone paying attention.

He did more damage to his "cause" than good.

:party:

[Tinoire]

197. I know lol; that's why I was perfectly content to keep that one around

lol

The more transparent and ridiculous, the better! ;)

:bounce: :bounce:

Or must we maintain a certain sense of decorum and pretend to mourn? Not quite sure what the protocol is here :shrug:

[AP]

198. I was really torn about windansea. I'm sure he was the vehicle which

introduced many DU'ers to truths about the opposition which were very unflattering, and which sent people to Chavez's side.

However, the repetitiveness of his arguments, the way he totally ignored everyone talking to him, his failure to engage in the debate, and the constant need to be (repetively) vigilant in the face of his persistence were a big drag...and behavior like his shouldn't be rewarded.

I totally expect to continue to have to make the argument to the deniers and the covert freepers, but a little variety would be nice...and so long as they don't tell lies, or pathologically repeat propaganda, and so long as they're willing to engage in a debate, I welcome them.

[Moderator]

199. Locking

Discussion is veering too far off track
thx