Am I the Only One Who Feels Like We Are Being Taken For A Ride?

[hang a left]

I can't put my finger on it. But the news in the last week has been really weird.

First, the horrific Madrid event. Perp supposedly Al Queda

Second, the election outcome in Spain. Does anybody else think that it might have turned out the same way without the bombings.

Spain's new leader comes out against Bush and his Iraq fiasco.

Al Queda publishing alot of threats to governments of the "coalition of the killing"

Poland coming out against the war.

Honduras coming out against the war.

Italy coming out against the war.

Doesn't it seem that there has been a barrage of negative statements being made towards *Bush's war and terrorism policies in a very short period of time by international leaders and entities? Do you feel like you are being manipulated. I do.

I am one of those foilers who never take anything at face value. I always read and look in between the lines. I am also one of those people who believe nothing in politics happens on accident. I am trying to figure out what the hell is going on, where is the big picture and what does it mean. Is this a distraction? Where are we supposed to be looking? What is the global outcome that is being induced?

[Goldmund]

1. What happened it Italy?

"Italy coming out against the war." -- I haven't heard anything about this. What are you refering to?

[hang a left]

5. Read this in LBN this morning.

Iraq war 'may have been a mistake': Italian minister


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040318/wl_mideast...

ROME (AFP) - An Italian minister broke ranks with his pro-war government on Iraq (news - web sites), telling a newspaper that last year's invasion could have been a mistake, and was in any case not the best thing to have done.


"The war may have been a mistake. Perhaps there were ways it could have been avoided," said European Affairs Minister Rocco Buttiglione in an interview published Thursday by the daily newspaper Il Messaggero.


"What is certain is that it wasn't the best thing to do," he added.


"Terrorism cannot be defeated only by the force of arms, and if we give the impression that weapons play the dominant role, we will only stir up nationalist feelings among the Arabs against us," he added.

more

[Goldmund]

29. Thanks!

[AP]

2. I wonder if there is some really bad economic news about to come out...

...and the rest of the world just realized that the US will not be able to buy anybody anything pretty soon, and will have no weight to throw around anymore.

[hang a left]

51. Now check out the distraction of the day.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=430386&mesg_id=430386

CNNI Pakistani forces reporting a fierce battle against Al Queda

Edited on Thu Mar-18-04 10:26 AM by maddezmom
Aaron Brown reporting, Pakistan Pres: "high-value" target surrounded. No confirmation on who the target is at this time.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/03/18/pakistan.alqaeda/index.htm...

[hang a left]

52. He has been caught again, in Pakistan

Just yesterday he was responsible for the hotel bombing in Bagdad.

CNN say Al Zwihari caught


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x430569

Waiting for links

-------------------

[hang a left]

54. Holy Crap!!!!!!!!!!! Check this out.

General sacked by Bush says he wanted early elections


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x430627

David Leigh
Thursday March 18, 2004
The Guardian

Jay Garner, the US general abruptly dismissed as Iraq's first occupation administrator after a month in the job, says he fell out with the Bush circle because he wanted free elections and rejected an imposed programme of privatisation.

In an interview to be broadcast on BBC Newsnight tonight, he says: "My preference was to put the Iraqis in charge as soon as we can, and do it with some form of elections ... I just thought it was necessary to rapidly get the Iraqis in charge of their destiny."

Asked by the reporter Greg Palast if he foresaw negative repercussions from the subsequent US imposition of mass privatisation , Gen Garner said: "I don't know ... we'll just have to wait and see." It would have been better for the Iraqis to take decisions themselves, even if they made mistakes, he said.

"What I was trying to do was get to a functioning government ... We as Americans like to put our template on things. And our template's good, but it's not necessarily good for everyone else." ...


http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1171689,00.html

edit for lbn linky

[GiovanniC]

3. Specifically

What kind of ride do you think we're being taken on?

[BloodyWilliam]

4. It's wisest to be paranoid only as far as you can see.

Speculate on the picture only as long as you can still SEE the picture. Might something very big be happening? Could be. But none of us have any clue. It's best to stick to the stuff we can see.

[Melodybe]

6. To make you feel better about Spain

The PM of Spain was quick to blame the ETA for the bombings, when the Spainish found out that it was Al Queda they were super pissed that they had been lied to.

That is what the NYT ran with and last night their was a Spanish guy that said as much.

So the PM lost because he lied saying that Madrid was not bombed b/c they were in Iraq. When evidence came out to the contray, the Spanish people handed him his ass.

[hang a left]

8. I know that is the official story but somehow it just doesn't sit with me.

The election was within 3 days of the bombing. That is awfully fast for the populace to figure out that they were being duped. Do you think that maybe just maybe that the election would have turned out the same way without the bombings. And of course how did such a elaborate attack go off with such precision, Who stood down?

[July]

36. The election was close. (Not the "upset" the RW claims.)

But I'm not sure what you're saying.

There was a chance that the numbers of seats won by the two main powers would have been similar (some polls projected a similar range of seats for both the PP and the PSOE). That would have led to a scramble by both parties to find support among the smaller parties in order to gain enough seats for a coalition government. So, although the PP had a slight lead in some polls (4% in the last one before the election), the outcome was not certain.

Spaniards were very attentive to news coming out about the bombings. It was a national tragedy, and, as facts contradictory to the PP storyline started coming out, they spread. I don't find it surprising at all (I've lived there, and I've spoken with several friends in Madrid since the bombings).

Did anyone "stand down"? I don't know. But the claim so far is that some backpack-type packages held the bombs. Pretty low-tech. That's how terrorists do what they do -- it's not James Bond technology, it's backpacks and box cutters.

[hang a left]

47. I don't buy it.

"it's backpacks and box cutters." That just doesn't sit well with me. But then again I am a MIHOPPER.

Are you sure? That is what they said. But how can you be sure?
"So, although the PP had a slight lead in some polls (4% in the last one before the election), the outcome was not certain."

Roll with me for a minute here. What if they knew they were gonna get their ars kicked. Do you really think the bombing changed the way those folks were gonna vote anyway. I think if they were against the Iraq war by such huge margins before the bombings, do you really think that this event, as tragic as it was, pushed so many others over. Maybe it was the way to save face. Maybe someone wanted to make sure the election went the way it did, insurance if you will. But why? You have to look at who has the most to gain. Is it the EU? Is it the European Elite? I don't have enough knowlegde of history and world events to speculate. I guess that is why I started this thread. I am trying to get a grasp on this nagging feeling I have. I want to understand and see the big picture, cause something just doesn't feel right.

[smirkymonkey]

38. I agree with you, something seems a

little off to me. It seems to good to be true. Maybe because we have gotten used to having NOTHING go our way, it seems like this turnaround is a little suspect.

I would like to think that the Europeans are as sick of Bush as we are, but I still feel like there is more going on than meets the eye.

[hang a left]

40. And now hear this

CNN Breaking: 3-4 explosions heard in Baghdad...

[seabeyond]

48. universal law

this is why i keep saying we dont need to be up in arms and i battle. every single thing bush does is in the lower, it is of greed, arrogance, lie. and this is the come uppance of fucking with the universe. we can get in the mud with bush, and then we dont evolve, or we can be in the higher, and we will flow in easiness and peace and gentleness. easy as pie. just how it is

and yes, i am a little odd on this. i have learned it in taking care of babies, and merging in marriage, geez all the way to basics of becoming whole with self, this projects out to politics, communities, schools and universe.

the best thing done was putting out loud bushco liars and crooks, with that being said out loud, with spain saying out loud and the listening to people, it brought to stillness the motion of the lie and the control over others voice

was like a couple weeks ago a handful of people on the board started talking how the repugs couldnt/wouldnt keep us quiet anymore. if we wanted to say, we are liberals, we dont like bush, and that doesnt make us unpatriotic, nonchristian or terrorists, that brought a stillness to motion of shutting people up

just my take

now, each now is totally new.

[arcane1]

28. the Spanish PM put politics ahead of his people's safety

Just like Bush

and he got his ass handed to him :D

just like Bush?

7. Who's doing the manipulating?

Regarding this --"Doesn't it seem that there has been a barrage of negative statements being made towards *Bush's war and terrorism policies in a very short period of time by international leaders and entities? Do you feel like you are being manipulated. I do.

They've probably wanted to say something for a long time & are beginning to now that there's been some encouragement.

They've probably been saying stuff all along, but it hasn't risen to the level where it has been heard or reported.

No conspiracy, just the gradual building up of a movement. That's my guess.

So, no that doesn't make me feel manipulated.

What makes me feel like someone is attempting to manipulate me is when I go outside of work like I did yesterday and see the Fox News Ticker on 48th and Sixth Avenue scrolling that "Bin Laden is innocent, according to Howard Dean." Outright misrepresentations from a "news source" make me feel like I'm being manipulated.

[hang a left]

12. OK. If you buy the fact that our news sources manipulate, surely

faux isn't the only source. And it just seems it is coming from everywhere simultaneously.

[aquart]

19. Yeah, it's all been planned by geniuses of evil.

90 percent of the Spanish people opposed the war and the gov't knew it. So they lied. And got caught. The election was going to be close and it got tipped over the edge.

America's economy has tanked. We're in the dread stagflation. We can't sell our treasury bonds. The news is already out there. Gold is over $400 an ounce. Just what did you think that meant?

Bush has also exposed our military weakness: a small standing army dependant on national guard troops. We don't have enough soldiers for his grandiose plans of conquest. That makes us sitting ducks. We have nukes? Big deal. The first time we use one, THE ENTIRE WORLD TURNS ON US AND LETS FLY WITH THEIR OWN. Bush never did grasp the concept of mutually assured destruction.

You see what's happening with gay marriages? One mayor with guts, then another, suddenly it's happening all over? THAT's what is going on with Italy, Spain, and the others in the "coalition of the willing." Also, elections are coming up in lots of places and this is a campaign issue. Australia may change gov'ts because Howard backed Bush.

Iraq was a naked war of aggression and the stink is being inhaled all over the world.

[Droopy]

9. Regarding those coming out against the war

I think those countries feel like their the ones that got taken for a ride and are just now seeing the light of day. I think they've seen that Bush's plan for Iraq is just the beginning of a perpetual war plan for the Middle East and they no longer want to be a part of it.

[Kolesar]

25. shame on them then

If those leaders had been doing their homework, they would have known the war was a sham 18 months ago.

[hang a left]

26. I agree, but look at all of this

Arabs will blame U.S. 'forever' if Iraq falls apart, critic says (Wilson)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x430274

Posted on Thu, Mar. 18, 2004

Arabs will blame U.S. `forever' if Iraq falls apart, critic says

By Laura Kurtzman
Mercury News


BERKELEY - Joseph Wilson, the former diplomat who clashed with the Bush administration over
its use of faulty intelligence to justify the war in Iraq, said Wednesday that the United States
would be blamed ``forever'' by the Arab world if it failed to create a functioning democracy in Iraq.

``The mess that's left over is our mess,'' Wilson said in a speech at the University of
California-Berkeley. ``We own it.''

Wilson, who spoke at a conference on media coverage of the war, said journalists failed to ask
hard questions about the administration's justifications for going to war, particularly Secretary of
State Colin Powell's speech to the U.N. Security Council in 2003, in which he said Iraq had
weapons of mass destruction and should be disarmed.

``Did anybody bother to go out and ask an inspector his interpretation of what Powell said?''
asked Wilson, who was deputy chief of mission at the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad from 1988 to
1991. ``Did anybody go out and ask an expert on disarmament about the meaning of what
Powell said? If they did, I certainly didn't see it in any newspapers.''

Wilson said he spoke with a weapons inspector after Powell's speech and the inspector told him,
``Powell's got nothing.''

more
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/politics/8215806.htm

[Kolesar]

31. I agree with Joe Wilson

Is your point that the journalists should have done a better job criticizing Bush (and Colin Powell)?

[hang a left]

35. No my point is why everyone and why now?

[Kolesar]

41. It's gotta be Howard Dean forming his new grassroots organization

Leaders around the world from politics to business to culture have stood up and noticed. There's a new paradigm in the power equation. We shall overcome.

Ok, I am having a bit of fun. I gotta get back to work now.

[BR_Parkway]

10. Maybe these are some of the other nations Kerry has stated

would like to see a change in US direction and policy. Speaking out now does back up his claims.

[aquart]

21. Kerry stated nothing of the kind.

He said "more leaders." The journalist mis-transcribed "more" as "foreign." He went back over his tape, heard the mistake, and issued a retraction.

Please don't go around misquoting Kerry.

[H2O Man]

11. If it makes anyone feel better

the commandment in chief is now on real life tv, explaining how the war is a good thing. Those who question his wisdom probably hate freedom. Just say no.

[TinaTyson]

13. I think it is as simple as the private powers are backing Kerry now.

They see that Bush is a hopeless cause and that his reelection will cause more strife and struggle than it is worth. It isn't a conspiracy or anything , just an honest assessment of their own interests. While the business community, which includes the media, is surely thankful for what they have received, they also recognize that ultimately these guys are for themselves and will back stab anyone, including them.

[hang a left]

14. Maybe it is just me and the way that I think.

I can't buy that it is that simple. It jsut feels like there is something bigger.

[emalejim9]

27. Problem is ....

With all this negative going on, it just seems like the truth is not being reported. It's more like being distorted.

Someone tell me if this logic is flawed. A bomb blows up a hotel in Iraq and I am supposed to believe all is well and the US is liberating Iraq. The US wants to turn over Iraq to the new government. The media and repukes keep stating the county is stabilizing and these are random acts. What the hell is going to happen when troops sizes are reduced. My perspective is that Iraq is going to go to fall apart and they will have a civil war. Am I thinking clearly, if so, why have we not heard this stated in this manner from the Dems. Frustrated...

[donsu]

33. I don't think Iraq will have a civil war if we remove our troops

the bushgang is using that as an excuse.

[Kolesar]

34. What do you foresee if not a civil war?

My hunch is that the Shiites are in the best shape to just take total control of Iraq.

[donsu]

55. I think they will work it out - of course there will be some local fights

and criminals are criminals war or no.

but they will know the world is watching and finally getting their country back will make them want to work together enough to get the country up and running and prospering.

[JHB]

15. The ride is called 'International Smackdown!'

SMACK!!!

[hang a left]

16. It is not just International. Check this out

WASHINGTON - Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., said Thursday he did not believe Democratic candidate John Kerry (news - web sites), a friend and Senate colleague, was weak on defense or would compromise national security if elected president.

"This kind of rhetoric, I think, is not helpful in educating and helping the American people make a choice," McCain said on "The Early Show" on CBS.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040318/ap_on_el_pr...

[Kolesar]

23. Your link failed. Try this link

The story on Yahoo about Mccain

[hang a left]

24. thanks

[hang a left]

17. And now this. You can't keep up with it all

Basra: another car bombing outside a hotel

Edited on Thu Mar-18-04 04:34 AM by maddezmom
breaking now on CNNI
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=716&e=12&u=/n...

[a_random_joel]

18. It only takes one to break the lockstep

Zapatero provided enough cover for others to test the water. They will find the political waters nice and cozy, because their own people were against the war by huge margins.

Kerry, in a way, also provided them with some diplomatic cover. This may have been a very smart move by Kerry. Only time will tell.

I do think RoveCO. have something up there sleeve; I don't think this is part of it.

[hang a left]

22. It also seems like there is an internal war going on

Between the BFEE and the Elite, or is that what they want us to think?

ON edit: The BFEE and the other Criminal Faction

[H2O Man]

32. Just curious:

do you support bush on the war? If you do, that's okay, and would explain your feeling uneasy with the increasing number of people, both from within the USA and around the world, who believe bush has created a dangerous climate of hatred and violence. Also, there are many sincere people who just don't know what to think, but are troubled by a feeling of anxiety that is justified in a world that has at least temporarily gone mad with war. As a person who opposes bush's reckless course, I am pleased to see so many respectable people from around the world joining together to say let's give peace a chance.

[hang a left]

37. I am against all war. Especially the Iraq war.

It is just a gut level feeling I am having. We have been raising hell here and screaming and crying for a year. The lies that have been told the pro-war rhetoric that has been spewed in the media. Why now all of a sudden are the wheels coming off for *Bush.

[emalejim9]

44. Is the media reporting it this way???

I feel the same way, but it appears that the media is fighting the realities and would like to portray the year anniversary in a different light.

[thingfish]

20. The whirlwind is in the thorn-tree, that's for gd sure.

It's enough to make this atheist want to pray.

[emalejim9]

30. Problem is ....

With all this negative going on, it just seems like the truth is not being reported. It's more like being distorted.

Someone tell me if this logic is flawed. A bomb blows up a hotel in Iraq and I am supposed to believe all is well and the US is liberating Iraq. The US wants to turn over Iraq to the new government. The media and repukes keep stating the county is stabilizing and these are random acts. What the hell is going to happen when troops sizes are reduced. My perspective is that Iraq is going to go to fall apart and they will have a civil war. Am I thinking clearly, if so, why have we not heard this stated in this manner from the Dems. Frustrated...

Sorry for the dupe...new to DU

[nolabels]

53. Don't believe too much you hear coming from any corporate media source

They are trying or wanting to run interference for the cabal squatting at the White House. The corporate media is willing into doing or saying any and all possible things to keep from being exposed and * they cling to so tenaciously.

The whole big lie that it was, is still getting bigger. The US military has just made it a requirement for all reporters working in Iraq to be licensed and certified by them. Shutting people down left and right. They have foreign contractors roaming the streets with bands of armed mercenaries from south Africa barging in on domestic businesses telling them they need a piece of the action (just like gangsters). From most accounts from street sources the place is even worse than when Saddam was in power.

The whole spin on the friction (civil war, by more manic interests) between the different factions of different religious sects is mostly fiction. I would put nothing past any of the folks responsible for the mess over there. My guess is they have to keep the cause and chaos up, otherwise they wont be able to set another puppet dictatorship and keep hold on the oil spigot. They say there are also growing groups of independent of the old regime and other US collaborators setting up democratic society's.

http://www.occupationwatch.org/article.php?list=type&type=21


http://hgrm.ctsg.com/

[tlcandie]

39. I don't honestly think there is anyway to stop a civil war in Iraq

now that the US has stepped foot into the quagmire. If there IS hope it is w/o the US or any allies and only via the UN.

If there is any hint that the US is still there with the UN then it will fail and the bombings/killings will NOT stop.

As to being deceived. I believe that the winds are turning and that light is being shed upon the darkness that has been and we have YET another chance to right the wrongs of this world and our perspective countries.

Maybe what you are feeling/seeing is something that IS going on behind the scenes on behalf of say Russia, Germany, UN, and who knows who or what else starting a move AGAINST Bush knowing full well that he MUST be stopped. That is VERY possible and probable.

I think that your scenario or hesitation is just as feasible as the domino effect.

However, if it is Russia, Germany, and other countries manipulating behind the scenes then what do they stand and/or hope to gain besides oil?

Maybe we could search/google to see if there has been any traveling or meetings between any of these countries. Maybe it is a FEW wealthy such as Soros and the like.

If you honestly think about it and take the time to recall from past posts, there isn't much in this world that happens w/o the behind-the- scenes workings of politicians or the monied.

So, your question does beg to be researched and looked in to! Kudos to you for being so aware!!

EDIT: Everything operates via tides/cycles.

[emalejim9]

42. The machine....

Thanks TLCandie!! I have been a reader for at least a year but a new poster. It is time to broaden my depth of the issues by discussing them with everyone at DU.

I agree these decision makers are people too and they have to as I would say scheme to get the message out. It just appears lately that no matter what is sent out to the masses, the media spins it in a different direction. Maybe I am being to critical, or too smart.

[hang a left]

43. Yes, that has crossed my dillusional mind.

"Maybe it is a FEW wealthy such as Soros and the like."

Soros was making the same comments a few months back. Now all of sudden it seems to be the line that is being touted globally. Soros said something like Bush's policies had to be abandoned bla bla bla, he was a threat to the world ect....

So now all of a sudden this is being repeated internationally. Now remember all the money that George gave to defeat *Bush. Didn't alot of the money go to Moveon and other groups for ads. Now the faciast repugnant thugs are suing to stop ads that negatively and truthfully expose this criminal enterprize. Now it appears that the troops have been amassed and the attacks are coming from inside and outside of the US. We all know who Soros works for, what is Rothchilds interest in this?

[tlcandie]

46. I can't recall who Soros works for or who he supports, but I would

like to have links. I will try to research myself as well. Sometimes when things seem too good to be true, you gotta really examine it. I don't think examination can hurt as long as we try to be objective.

I'm not looking to discredit anyone or anything, but TRUTH must always be the ultimate goal.

I have to run for an appointment, but hopefully this will have helped you to maybe put something to the shadows lurking in your mind! :hi:

[hang a left]

50. The Rothschilds

n/t

[9215]

45. .........

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1248263

[hang a left]

49. From your post

Only last week several senior members of the administration said they fully expected that his conservatives would emerge victorious. In fact, months ago a senior adviser to Mr. Bush predicted that should a terrorist attack occur in Europe, it would probably drive the Europeans closer to the United States and its approach to the campaign against terror, not away from it.


If you recall the "Meet the Press" interview Russert had with Bush when Bush was asked what he would do if he was voted out he replied stiffly that he was not going to lose. He was asked, half heartedly, if he would give up power and he simply repeated he was not going to lose.

Bush has no intention of giving up power.

Over in FreeperRepug land alot of the people there voiced objection to the idea of calling off the elections, but they still back Bush, and most will be easily swayed when push comes to shove.

This is, of course, the fascists ultimate goal. It was Hitler quoted in Shirer's "The Riseand Fall of the Third Reich" that there can be no free enterprise in a democracy and we all know that the BFEE ALWAYS puts money and power before national security. Besides that we have Bush showing contempt for democracy and free elections at every turn beginning with his theft of the presidency. The Repugs know that if elections are held free and fair that they will lose as shown in "The Emerging Democratic Majority".



I DON'T BELIEVE OUR FREAKIN' POLLS. THERE IS NO WAY THE WAR IN IRAQ HAS AS MUCH SUPPORT AS THEY ARE SAYING. I DON'T BELIEVE THE BS THEY WERE SPEWING FOR-FREAKIN EVER THAT BUSH WAS A SHOE IN FOR 04.


But it is not just here in the US.

Do you think just maybe that the press is used in other countries to manipulate populations. Do you think that the polls in Spain may have been skewed?

[spanone]

56. I think the bush* agenda is all war all the time and don't you forget

about war because war and terrorism is still war war war war war war war war war war war. oh did i mention war????????