Parents angered by book about gay princes

[OneBlueSky]

Thursday, March 18, 2004

http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/03/18/gay.princes.ap/index.html

WILMINGTON, North Carolina (AP) -- The parents of an elementary school pupil are fuming over the book their daughter brought home from the school library: a children's story about a prince whose true love turns out to be another prince.

Michael Hartsell said he and his wife, Tonya, couldn't believe it when Prince Bertie, the leading character in "King & King," waves off a bevy of eligible princes before falling for Prince Lee.

The book ends with the princes marrying and sharing a kiss.

"I was flabbergasted," Hartsell said. "My child is not old enough to understand something like that, especially when it is not in our beliefs."

- more . . .

http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/03/18/gay.princes.ap/index.html

[underpants]

1. I don't think I would be too crazy about that myself.

Age 6? No that is too young IMHO. They shouldn't be reading about "relationships" at that age anyway except of course for the one's with Prince Charmings rescuing poor helpless subservient damsels in distress. ON EDIT-with his "sword". But I still don't think I would like my child (which I don't have) to see the book the article is about.

[BayCityProgressive]

4. why be homophobic?

whats it matter who he falls in love with? Its not like he is having hot S&M sex with him in the book for christs sake.

[cprise]

6. Then ban gay people from public life

...like they are trying to do in TN.

Or do you think gays will continue to refrain from kissing or holding hands in public?

[underpants]

21. I'm not homopobic and they shouldn't be banned from public life

I just don't think that kids need to read a book like that until, at the youngest, 14 and then maybe. I just don't think it is appropriate and it was a stupid thing for the school to do In my Humble opinion.

[adriennel]

33. are you a certified librarian or teacher?

just wondering.

[underpants]

41. No but my mother is/was

Does that make my opinion any more credible?

Look it is my opinion. Like I said I don't have any kids but I really wouldn't want them to be reading that at that age. That's it. I am pretty sure my wife would agree with me...oh and my mother too.

[adriennel]

52. well,

I don't like it when people feel they have the capacity to decide what is appropriate and what is not appropriate for large segments of the population. For example, you stated that you don't think this subject matter should be read until age 14--that's fine, if you're talking about what your children should and should not read. Personally, I want my children to know about relationships, yes all kinds of relationships, way before the age of 14.

My point: there are a lot of hard-working educators and librarians who have studied this issue at length and work everyday on determining age-appropriate content. It's not easy. It's often controversial. But I would rather have a trained educator or librarian decide how best to build their collection than a pair of offended parents.

[underpants]

57. Um aren't you deciding what is appropriate?

IS everything appropriate? I don't hink so myself but again that is just me.

[adriennel]

65. only during working hours

as a librarian it is part of my job. I'm saying, leave it to the professionals.
I do not work in Children's Media anymore. However I work in an Environmental Science Library, so yes, my decisions are often debated as controversial!!

[Terran]

99. Underpants, I look at it this way...

An innocent story about romantic love is harmless, no matter who it's about. Children hear those kinds of stories from the time they're old enough to follow an oral story line read to them by their parents. It's how they come to understand the existence of adult relationships, and why Mommy and Daddy love each other. They don't have to understand that sex is involved, in real life, nor should they, I believe, until they're much older.

But if you start explaining to a very young child that people of the same gender can fall in love and live happily ever after just as people of opposing genders, then they will grow up feeling that there's nothing wrong with that. The same child who reads about Prince Charming and his Princess, and equates that tale with Mommy and Daddy and learns from it, might also have an Uncle Dirk and and an Uncle Michael. And if the child reads a story about Prince Bertie and his Prince Lee, then the kid might understand Uncle Dirk and Uncle Michael better, and be not merely accepting of them as romantic figures, but also feel it's completely normal. To me, this is the future; this is *exactly* how little kids can be preventatively treated for homophobia.

Dirk

[ithacan]

124. very nicely and well explained Dirk.

thanks.

[cprise]

88. That's because you think its about sex

But life is not the Howard Stern show and love between two people who happen to be the same sex isn't esoteric or "adult themed". You can't lump everything about gay people into one neat PG-13 category without needlessly discriminating.

I wonder what other kinds of people you would, say, have TV networks eternally segregate into the after-10pm schedule.

[Dookus]

38. but why

are children's stories about heterosexual relationships OK?

I can't believe the homophobia in this thread.

[foreigncorrespondent]

71. But it is ok for kids of that age...

...to learn that women have to be subservient to men?

Pretty chauvinistic attitude if you ask me.

[slinkerwink]

"I'm not a bigot, but I don't like children's books about queer princes"

[Mairead]

103. Bloody hell--you were serious!

I thought you were joking because you said "except of course for the one's with Prince Charmings rescuing poor helpless subservient damsels in distress".

Nice little mix of homophobic sexism, there -- a two-fer.

[Cronus Protagonist]

181. This issue brings out a lot of that homophobia

Suddenly, instead of having to internalize and suppress, bigots see a way to express their views without the fear of appearing too mean, and they go for it. I can't tell you how many people I've plonked over this one conversation. And still, people who claim to be liberals foam at the mouth to express their bigotry over the one acceptable scapegoat left, the .

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[mondo joe]

123. Why would a 14 yr old want to read a little kid's book?

King & King is a charming, funny book for young kids - why on earth would it be withheld until someone is 14?

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

210. FOURTEEN??????

ROFL!!! Thanks for that laugh. Seriously, kids know about homosexuality WAYYYY before fourteen. Even I did and I grew up in a different time.

Wow. Fourteen.

I guess you'd freak out to know my daughter knew what homosexuality was when she was five. In very simple terms, but she knew.

No biggie.

[foreigncorrespondent]

67. Isn't it sad that queers have to refrain?

The only time I ever felt comfortable about holding Sapph's hand in public was when we were in the Castro district of San Francisco.

Hell I am even to bloody scared of kissing her at the airport when one of us is having to make the 15 hour flight that is the beginning on yet another unknown amount of time we will be apart.

[Mairead]

115. You need to get out more: try 'Lesbianville' and P-town

AKA Northhampton and Provincetown Massachusetts, respectively. :)

[foreigncorrespondent]

140. Wish I could...

...but alas, I am Australian, and even though Sapphocrat (my partner) is an American citizen, she doesn't have the right to sponsor me as her partner for immigration.

[rumguy]

9. I totally agree...

[slinkerwink]

80. but why....

are children's stories about heterosexual relationships OK?

[gator_in_Ontario]

101. Agreed

Grimm's fairy tales are very scary in more ways than one! Re-reading them with an adult mind opened my eyes up about alot of things and about the many different ways we teach our children.

[rumguy]

120. fuel for the right wing fire - keep pouring it on...let's see how

high we can get those flames...

I remember when you had your livejournal up - you said that you weren't sure this was the right time for gay marriage, given that there was a prez. election coming up...

[kayell]

148. The people fanning the flames are the people like you

who pretend to be progressives, yet won't stand up and say this is about civil rights, this is about the right of children to be exposed to positive messages about who they are, this is about what is right.

If "progressives" actually believe in what they claim to believe, they wouldn't bend down to kiss the RW asses, they wouldn't act as though it is shameful to be queer, or have queer parents. True progressives know that what is shameful is to treat other human beings as though they should hide away.

Your message to the world is the really, really harmful one. Your message is that gay relationships are SO SHAMEFUL that progressives won't support them.

YOU are the one who should be ASHAMED.

I'm not getting back in my closet for you or anyone. And I'll fight tooth and nail to prevent little kids from being locked in that damn closet ever again.

[rumguy]

150. "Your message is that gay relationships are SO SHAMEFUL"

You're cracking me up - keep it up!

[nostamj]

25. some six-year-olds are in families with same-sex parents

and this isn't new "Heather Has Two Mommies" caused quite a stir.

remember:

You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught

[ithacan]

27. excellent poem nostamj!

thanks. Very on target for this discussion.

[nostamj]

30. actually, it's a lyric

from Rogers and Hammerstein's SOUTH PACIFIC

but thanks. came right to my minds re: this discussion

[cprise]

93. On that note

The children at this school probably didn't think the book was puzzling or that unusual. I'm sure the parents' reactions will leave a severe impression though.

[Bertha Venation]

43. Too young for love?

Six year olds know the stories of Cinderella, Snow White, Sleeping Beauty - all love stories of a sort, which end w/ a couple in love living happily ever after. How is this story any different?

[underpants]

55. Dookus and Bertha:

Look I understand your points but I just don't think I would want my child reading that. It's that simple. Sorry that is just how I feel.

Yes Bertha I know that it is not any different-I alluded to that in my first post- but....:shrug:

ON EDIT-changed spelling

[Dookus]

58. I understand your point

I just disagree vehemently.

The desire to hide the notion of homosexuality from children is harmful to gay people, children, and society as a whole.

[Bertha Venation]

78. I agree, Dookus.

OTOH parents have a right to filter what their children see.

You and I clearly would have no problem with the book in question, but that others do I suppose is cause enough for parents to ask that it's removed from shelves -- at least shelves accessible to certain ages.

It's not black & white to some people. It's very strange that some folks think there's something different about this fairy tale.

[cprise]

95. Parents do not have a right

...to place any arbitrary filter on the process of public education and discourse.

If there isn't a good reason, then it's simple bigotry.

[adriennel]

107. Thank you!

This is exactly what I've been trying to say, but more eloquent.

[BigEdMustapha]

214. "Parents do not have a right"

Actually, parents do have the right to filter public education and discourse - it's called private schools or home schooling

FYI - I fully support gay rights - but it's my right to present homosexuality to my kids at a time that I feel is appropriate.

[Bertha Venation]

61. Okay.

We can agree to disagree.

[David__77]

160. Then you oppose homosexuality being considered normal & healthy.

If you think homosexuality is normal and healthy, then why is this story bad, and opposite gender theme stories OK? All I can get from your postings is "that's just how I feel..."

I think if you consider yourself a progressive, you have a responsibility to figure out and articulate your views, and perhaps reevaluate them.

Either you think homosexuality and heterosexuality are both healthy and OK orientations, or you do not.

[belle]

125. Heh.

[Dookus]

2. heheh

sounds like a nice book.

I wanted a prince when I was 6!

[Mairead]

3. They apparently feel the need to see that other kids also don't see the

book, since they plan to keep it out of circulation.

[rumguy]

5. stupid to put it in a school, dumb, dumb, dumb...

[JitterbugPerfume]

8. on penalty of being flamed

I think six is way to young


personally I would rather be resued by Prince with flaming sword <smile>

[adriennel]

14. six is not too young to discuss relationships

if you think kids don't observe couples and pick up some tidbits of information by the age of six, you're wrong.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Alenne]

20. Do you think there should not be books about all relationships

or just gay relationships?

[rumguy]

24. just gay relationships

there's some things the world just ain't ready for...

this is fuel to the right wing's fire...

and, honestly, it's just to confusing for a six y.o. who basically has no inclination of sexuality at all yet - leave discussions about that to the parents...

[kayell]

37. It's pretty darn hard on a 6 year old

with gay or lesbian parents when they can't talk about their parents (recent case in Louisiana where 1st grader suspended for telling classmate his mothers are lesbians, and that means 2 women love each other).

Pretty hard on that same 6 year old when every relationship in every book in the library is not like his parents.

Pretty hard on a 6 year old when the few books she found about people like her family suddenly dissapear from the library.

Whether or not 6 year olds have any notion of what sex is, they certainly know what love is, and these 6 year olds are being told that their parents love is wrong.

Is that what you want 6 year olds to learn??

[rumguy]

46. no one is telling them the love is wrong...nt

[kayell]

Do you think 6 year olds are stupid???

If there are no stories about families like theirs, don't you think they get the message?

If someone takes the stories about families like theirs out of the library, don't you think they get the message?

If they can't talk about their parents at school without getting in trouble, don't you think they get the message?

Think about that message, exactly what it is, and whether you want that kind of pain for a 6 year old.

[foreigncorrespondent]

85. You just did in an earlier post...

...by saying to keep this shit out.

I have lost all respect for you!

[Bertha Venation]

50. WOW. I am truly amazed.

"just gay relationships" -- :wtf:

Rumguy, as I wrote upthread, it is just love.

IT'S JUST LOVE, PEOPLE! It's not sex, it's not lust, it's not sex ed, it's not condoms-on-bananas class, it's not a primer on fisting or felching or urban legends or anything else. It's a fairy tale.

What is the difference between that tale and Cinderella?

[Dookus]

56. I'm amazed, too, Bertha...

truly I am.

Ignorant homophobes are everywhere, even on a progressive discussion board.

[rumguy]

62. ignorant homophobes! LMFAO....

I am for gay marriage.

[Dookus]

66. So what?

Your stance on one political issue doesn't determine whether or not you have an aversion to homosexuality. Insisting that the whole NOTION of homosexual relationships be hidden from children is homophobic.

But gee, thanks for your support on the whole marriage thing. :eyes:

[rumguy]

69. faulty logic

you try and ascribe some extreme position to me - just leave it to the parents...no one is trying to hide the entire notion from kids...there's plenty about it in our culture

[cprise]

100. Well, if "negroes have their place" in someone's worldview

...I guess that's a pretty mild position too.

Or not.

[rumguy]

109. hysteria...

we are talking about a book for six yr. olds

[kayell]

145. Have you actually read and thought about any of the responses

from people on why 6 year olds NEED to have these books in school? Or have you salved you concience enough by saying that you support gay marriage that you don't need to think about the issue any more?

Have you thought about that 6 year old that is starting to wonder what is different about them? Have you thought about how that child will feel at 8, 10, 12, 14? When are you going to be willing for that child to receive any messages that they are ok, that they are worthwhile, that they are NORMAL?

[kayell]

129. "Just leave it to the parents"

Which parents? You seem to be picking the bigoted parents.

How about me? I'm a lesbian parent. I'm a lesbian grandparent. I'd like my grandchild to be able to see people like me in her library books. I'd like her to get a view of the world that is not heterocentric, not ethnocentric, not sexist, not full of all the bullshit that this bigoted "protecting the children" produces.

What about all the other parents of various sorts who would like their children to grow up in a world where the main message in one of tolerance and respect for all people? Is their desire less worthy than that of some bigots that want children to be coddled in some make believe all white, all heterosexual, all father knows best world?

Don't we count? Or aren't we the "right kind" of parents?

[adriennel]

74. I'm confused

Not homophobic=keep that shit inside
not homophobic=pro-gay marriage, as long as you keep that shit inside
not homophobic=kids shouldn't know anything about homosexuality until the age of 14 (very close to the age when most kids start having hetereosexual sex)
I guess this would be a bad time to mention that kids under the age of 14 have probably messed around with one sex or the other by that age...or what it just me? : )

[kayell]

75. Then you need to think a little further about what you really mean

because an awful lot of those people having gay marriages have children.

[mondo joe]

126. A lot of 6 year olds see gay parents of their classmates

Should those parents be hidden away as well?

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

216. You think six year olds have no inclination of sexuality yet?

ROFL!

[nostamj]

34. "that shit" ???

nice. tolerance duly noted.

MANY children today are in 'non-traditional' families.

books like this are design to make those children feel INCLUDED.

your attitude, uh, smells.

[rumguy]

47. it's not appropriate for six yr. olds - it just isn't

and I stand by that

leave it to the parents...

[nostamj]

54. ANY kind of sex education is inappropriate

for that age.

diversity | tolerance | REALITY

are totally fair.

once again, what about the children that are part of loving, same-sex parented FAMILIES?

they should be ashamed? they should feel "different" "strange" "WRONG" ??

let's hope you take a 'pass' on the parenting thing....

[rumguy]

60. no one is making them feel ashamed...ok?

[nostamj]

72. the parents getting hysterical over this book are

and based on your posts, exactly how would you handle it when your 6yo comes home and tells you about meeting his classmate's two daddies when they picked him up from school?

would you carpool with a same-sex couple? work the PTA bake sale?

or, is it just books you want to control?

would you confront a gay couple holding hands with a 6yo nearby?

issues issues issues....

[Don Claybrook]

82. I don't understand your reasoning

Why are Cinderella et al "appropriate" reading material for children, but Prince Ken and Prince Phil or whatever is wrong?

If you said that you found homosexuality morally repugnant, then the view that such books are wrong would be consistent.

But if you say that you support gay rights, gay marriage, equality, why is it somehow wrong to have books in the library that allude to same-sex relationships? As someone mentioned, there's no sex in these books, nothing pornographic.

Mark me confused.

[sangh0]

116. "It just isn't appropriate"

Ahh, the "self-evident" ploy, used to defend policies like inter-racial marriage bans, colonialism, and a host of history's greatest crimes.

[adriennel]

40. learn to spell

then clean up your language. how much experience do you have with young children and determining age-appropriate content?

[rumguy]

49. I remember what it was like to be six

and books with guys kissing in them just isn't appropriate for that age...

[Dookus]

53. It is no more or less appropriate

than a man and a woman kissing. Sleeping Beauty? Ban it, dammit!

[rumguy]

59. leave it to the parents to discuss

that is the best option...

[nostamj]

63. yes!

and let books like this initiate the discussion!

and help parents show that's it's perfectly normal and fine.

[Dookus]

64. That is the best option

only if you believe ALL books should be "discussed by the parents" before a child sees them.

Singling out ONE book this way is bullshit.

[adriennel]

68. So do I.

?

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[adriennel]

76. Awww, you know me so well!

Not. you don't even know how old I am, so take your "goofballs" and shove them.

[rumguy]

117. for the record I was joking adriennel

calm down

[Bertha Venation]

96. So do I. It's when I knew I was gay.

Can you imagine the impact this book would have on such a child?! My god, if gay kids had books like this . . . wow. I can't imagine it, but those kids would grow up a damn sight happier and better-adjusted than most I did.

[nostamj]

102. me too!

didn't know the word or concept 'gay' but KNEW i was different. actually remember it quite vividly. playing 'house'. had no interest in being the daddy... wanted to be the 'uncle who comes to visit sometimes' (I had one of those and he brought the BEST presents!) ;-)

and assumed I was the only 'different' one in the world....

[foreigncorrespondent]

83. How dare you shit all over the gay community like that!

"I'm sorry it's to young...keep that shit out of the schools..."

How dare you imply on what I thought was a fucking progressive forum that gay relationships are shit.

Obviously I was very mistaken about DU being progressive! It seems from the shit I see in this thread that we are in fact going back to the dark ages.

Unfuckingbelievable!

[rumguy]

87. simmer down

like I've said I am for gay marriage...

it's just stupid to put that book in the school and then read it to children - it's asking for a firestorm of controversy...

[Bertha Venation]

97. walk a mile -- then tell us to simmer down

bud

[foreigncorrespondent]

98. Do NOT tell me to simmer down.

I have bloody well had it with people shitting all over the gay community like you did! You have no right to use the term shit like you did.

Did it ever occur to you that your wording might actually hurt people? No! I guess it didn't, if it did, you would not have posted it!

You have lost my respect!

BTW, you use of the word shit, is asking for a firestorm of controversy of its own!

[rumguy]

111. it's like what my pappy used to say

If you play with the bull son, you're gonna get the horns.

[foreigncorrespondent]

114. I don't give a shit what your pappy used to say.

You are so totally unbelievable, the way you can make a statement, and then totally brush it off and tell someone who was truly offended by YOUR statement to simmer down.

You are WRONG, and you can't even fucking apologize for your own actions! Unfuckingbelievable!

[rumguy]

119. no missus, you are WRONG

your brazen accusations of homophobia are reckless.

Well I got news for you: that dog don't hunt.

[cprise]

127. the bar has already been set for brazen

...and I think you should be ashamed of yourself.

[rumguy]

130. ashamed? for what - this is a book for six yr. olds...give me a break

[foreigncorrespondent]

138. Again, you show just how inconsiderate and WRONG you can be.

no sir, you are WRONG

That would actually be ma'am!

Oh I see, changing the "sir" to "missus" before I could reply huh?

Oh well! Regardless, you are WRONG! You were WRONG! You insulted an entire community, and you don't even have the decency to apologize for your own actions.

[rumguy]

144. I apologize if I hurt you in any way....

I'm surprised at how genuinely hurt you sound. I take back the use of the word "shit" - it was in reference to what I thought was a dumb move, it had nothing to do with the "gay community" - I just think that this aspect of our culture war should not involve young children...

[cprise]

167. Then by extension

gay relationships must not be seen where there are children present.

As far as I'm concerned, your apology is meaningless.

[rumguy]

175. wrong you are distorting....nt

[cprise]

178. Nope

And you're not explaining your position, either. You can't tell me how that book is different than any other public venue.

[foreigncorrespondent]

233. No, he isn't distorting.

You are. And by the way, your apology is a half assed attempt to get the heat away off you. I do not and will accept anything from a person who deems me, my lover, and my community shit.

If you truly feel that you should not said what you said, you wouldn't have said it in the first place. Next time, think before you leap. You might not come out of the next one so easily.

[kayell]

137. Don't tell people to simmer down when you have just unloaded your

homophobic baggage all over us. "Keep that shit out of schools" makes it perfectly clear what you think of gay relationships. Your support for gay marriage proves nothing at this point other than that you are the sort that would like to say "some of my best friends are.."

You act like you have no idea of how harmful and hateful your words are to gays, to our children, to the children of our friends and family, or to the millions of children in this country who are starting to figure out that they are a bit different. I'm not buying it.

You're trying to change your tune now, and act like your objection is all about the controversy. Anyone going back and looking at your words can see the truth plainly.

Interesting choice some "progressives" make. Whenever faced with a controversial issue, always come down on the side of the bigots to avoid "stirring up a firestorm".

BOILING AWAY :grr:

[rumguy]

146. once again...I see hysteria in the place of reason

to accuse me of homophobia is irresponsible and reckless...

some aspects of our ongoing culture wars should not involve six yr. olds - our country is not ready for it, and that's the reality...

for further clarification, look at my post above about my pappy...

[kayell]

151. You don't see hysteria. You see FURY

I call what I see.

You made clear that it was only homosexual relationships that should be hidden from view. That is as good a definition of homophobia as I could ever imagine.

[rumguy]

You should get a job putting words in peoples' mouths....

cuz you seem to have a talent for it...

[kayell]

158. Your words

Alenne (1000+ posts) Thu Mar-18-04 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #19

20. Do you think there should not be books about all relationships
or just gay relationships?


rumguy (1000+ posts) Thu Mar-18-04 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #20

24. just gay relationships
there's some things the world just ain't ready for...

snip

[rumguy]

174. I stand by that - keep the culture war out of our elementary schools

this is not the time!!!

[kayell]

179. Then we are back to my earlier statement

"You made clear that it was only homosexual relationships that should be hidden from view. That is as good a definition of homophobia as I could ever imagine."

Remember? This is the statement that had you accusing me of putting words in your mouth. You can clearly see YOUR words above in my response.

How is your objection to gay relationships, but not straight relationships, not homophobic?

[rumguy]

182. not having a book geared for six yr. olds is not "hiding" anything

Gay teachers are totally one-hundred percent fine too.

I honestly feel like you are making a mountain out of a molehill, and it does a great disservice to your cause.

And don't forget what my pappy said.

[kayell]

185. It is hiding when you think that it is only books about gay relationships

that should be restricted.

I am not making a mountain out of a molehill. I notice that you have completely avoided answering any of the posts about the affect on children with gay parents, or who may be gay themselves, of limiting access to positive views of gay relationships.

Not to mention the affect of limiting access to positive views of gay relationships on other kids. Those kids may grow up with the idea that gay relationships are wrong enough to be hidden away. They may think that gay relationships are only about sex. Those kids may grow up to be a lot like you.

[rumguy]

193. once again you stun me with the personal attacks

I don't think gay relationships are just about sex. Why do you think I support gay marriage?

I don't think not having a book about two gay kings is going to have some huge dramatic negative impact on their lives.

Let's let the courts and our culture catch up with you, and then we'll see about the gay kings in the schools...

[kayell]

230. If you think they are personal attacks, use your alert button

let the mods decide.

What ever they decide though, won't change what your behavior/opinions say about you.

[kayell]

183. Whose elementary schools???

My grandchild goes to those schools, as did my daughter. My neighbors child goes to those schools. My nieces go to those schools, as do my nephews on the other side. My cousins kids go to those schools. My granddaughters playmates go to those schools.

Where do you get the idea that public schools only belong to bigoted parents?

[rumguy]

187. They aren't necessarily bigoted...

Our courts are still wrestling with these issues, in the meantime, let's keep these culture wars out of the schools..

[kayell]

194. Why do you keep using the term "culture wars"?

It's an odd term, one I don't usually hear at DU.

In the meantime, let's keep the homophobia out of the schools..

[Terran]

104. FC, I think we're beginning to understand...

...the depth of ignorance and thoughtlessness regarding this issue. Even progressives who line up on every other issue can't seem to see our side of this one.

I work for an old established progressive advocacy association, and the Board just voted a few days ago to oppose any attempt to modify the Constitution, state or federal, to define marriage. Since then we've have lost two Board members over the issue, one of whom was a past president and an association memeber for 30 years with impeccable liberal credentials.

It can be very depressing.

Dirk

[foreigncorrespondent]

106. Yep!

I so totally agree with you, Dirk. People are truly in denial about what they believe until it hits them smack in the face. We have been seeing this kind of crap progressing on DU a lot lately.

I am just really stunned. I feel betrayed by people I thought were truly enlightened, and I am very bloody hurt!

[Terran]

108. Take comfort in the fact that

MOST people responding in this thread seem supportive, or at least educatable. I'm hoping Underpants reads what I posted above in response to him.

Hugs,
Dirk

[rumguy]

113. well hey I'm for gay marriage - but this is a personal family issue

leave it to the parents...

don't mix and match issues...

[foreigncorrespondent]

118. Typical...

..."I'm for gay marriages, but."

You say leave it to the parents. Then how about YOU and people like you leave the gay community alone! We are NOT harming you or your kids. We just want the rights we were promised the moment we were born, and to be left alone!

[kayell]

155. Leave it to which parents?

You seem to want to leave it to the bigoted parents.

How about me? I'm a parent. I'm a grandparent. And I damn sure want my granddaughter to grow up with messages that are positive about all people, rather than the message that the world is white, hetero, father knows best, christian, and that everyone else is not to be talked about in polite society.

[cprise]

170. It's about erasing people who are visibly gay from a public setting

Reading about certain people is little different than interacting with them as far as public policy is concerned. The precendent you would set is BROADLY exclusionary.

I think you've mixed the wrong issues.

[DemMother]

45. You're absolutely right

A few years ago I took my four-year old to the park where they were holding a gay and lesbian festival near the playground. He asked me what "gay" spelled and I told him. He just nodded and said, "Oh yeah, two of the same."

As background, my brother is gay and at the time was living nearby with his partner. We never made a big deal of it; we were just matter of fact about answering the questions our kids asked--about any topic.

And, I'm proud to say my kids aren't the ones throwing around the expression, "Oh, he's so gay." I think if you're exposed to something early it somehow seems to act as a block for all the nonsense you hear as move out into the world.


I suspect that those opposed don't have kids--I don't think you'd feel this way if you really had an idea of what a six-year-old, or even a four-year-old is capable of absorbing.

[adriennel]

10. I disagree

libraries are for learning. school librarians in MI need both a library degree and a valid teaching certificate.

the real problem here is that the librarian was not aware of the subject matter of certain items in her collection. certainly a book on a controversial topic should be known to the librarian as she actively makes a choice on whether or not to include the item in the collection.

[ithacan]

7. not old enough to understand??? WTF???

What's to understand?

You have two people who fall in love with each other.

Doesn't seem very complicated to me.

My kids have known gay couples and children of gay couples from the time they were infants, while they were in kindergarten on upwards.

They have had no problem understanding this, and they have not been confused.

These people clearly have issues with their own sexuality. My prediction: They'll burn the book.

[sangh0]

13. My 6 yo niece isn't confused about homosexuality

She has no idea about homosexual sex, but then, she has no idea about heterosexual sex either.

[Skidmore]

17. Exactly, nor should she...

We've forgotten to let children have childhoods in these days. When it comes time for "the discussion", then have it, but don't push a kid just because you have issues you can't resolve or grievances that you need to air.

[sangh0]

112. However, she does have some difficult question concerning

where parents come from!

She's not worrying about where babies come from. She understands that. But she doesn't understand where parents come from.

[indigo32]

166. Sangh0

thats it in a nutshell. It's the adults that are confused.

[John BigBootay]

11. Only in favor of this if--

parents are allowed to be in the decision loop.

This is not a simple subject, I honor parent's wishes (as I am now a parent) to inform their children in their own way about what homosexuality is and all about.

[shadu]

18. I can see your point.

And in the real world there is just no way parents would approve of this.
Six is just too young for this book.

[ithacan]

26. the princes are not HAVING SEX in the book!!!!!

They are falling in love.

That is a theme that is so pervasive in children's books, fairy tales, etc. that every child is familiar with it way before they turn 6.

Saying that six year olds are too young to read about people falling in love is ridiculous, sorry.

[John BigBootay]

92. There is a difference--

between showing a man and a woman falling in love and showing two men falling in love.

I don't think I need to explain the differences to you.

That SOME of us feel that these differences should be ignored is ultimately immaterial to the central fact that the majority of us feel that we should have the right to decide when, where and how OUR children (not yours) are educated about the concept of homosexuality.

Thanks for playing.

[ithacan]

121. I disagree

people are people. love is love.

And I strongly agree with the point made by others.

My kids, by being aware of the fact that men can be in loving relationships with men, and women with women, and they can have kids and be a loving family, are well prepared to deal with the homophobia and hatred of gays that pervade this society. They see it the way they see blatant anti-black racism -- as incomprehensible, the result of ignorance.

Just substitute race for gender in your statement and it could be something out of the deep south pre-civil rights.

[John BigBootay]

131. Fine--

I won't take your veiled accustation of racism and/or homophobia personally.

You have your opinion, I have mine.

Just remember however, that it is your insistant and intolerant attitude toward the beliefs of others that is generating the resentment toward our public schools that is prevalent today.

Just because "many others" here agree, doesn't mean crap in the real world.

[mondo joe]

132. Then Don't Let your Kids get library books or watch tv

If you're that adamant on not letting your kids know some other people exist, that's your right.

But you should take responsibility and not let your kids get library books, or watch tv. You might want to just home school them.

Part of going to school means your kids are going to be exposed to people other than you. And not just in books - they can have a classmate with 2 moms or 2 dads. Should they not come to the school either, so your kid won't have to know they exist?

[DrWeird]

12. So then what are the gay six year olds supposed to read?

hmm?

[adriennel]

15. right on!

:hug:

[BayCityProgressive]

16. so should all love stories be banned to?

until parents can tell their kids what heterosexuality is all about. What you are really saying is heteros are "normal" gays are not. Blatant homophobia. Just like the white family saying "I don't mind black people I just don't want to live by them".

[Dookus]

22. exactly

the replies here astound me.

the book isn't about the princes renting out the Black Tulip in Amsterdam for a night in the sling. It's about them falling in love, a staple of children's stories for centuries.

[shadu]

35. no one knows the answer to that question

We do not know why some are gay and some
are heterosexual. Until we do know, is it not wiser
to not push either concept on six year olds?
I would rather see ALL such books (gay and heterosexual oriented)
pulled from a six year old's reading list. There would still be plenty of good books to chose from.
Let children be children, not political fodder.

[seabeyond]

86. put in wrong place

sorry

[shadu]

23. "Where the Wild Things Are" "Where is my Aminal?"

"The Cat in the Hat" "George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept
of Tonal Organization for Improvization"... shall I go on?

There ain't no way they gots to be thinking so hard at six.
Let them be kids. Let them think about birds and tigers and
aeroplanes.

[Dookus]

29. well

when you expunge any mention of heterosexuality in children's literature, you'll have a point.

Until then, there's not a damned thing wrong with reading a story about two people falling in love.

[underpants]

36. Well I always had my doubts about Christopher Robin

I think it was the shoes :bounce:

[absyntheNsugar]

28. Look...this is bound to come up

Chances are kids will see at least one same-sex parental coupling, and do we want that kid to have a negative connotations or make up his or her own?

I see nothing harmful in this...

[ithacan]

31. it's that darn homosexual agenda!!!

they are recruiting our 6 year olds!! We can't let our 6 year old know that two men can fall in love, cause then they'll all turn out gay!

The world's falling apart, six year olds are seeing couples who aren't different-sex couples!!! :eyes:

[Cronus Protagonist]

184. Oooh for sure, and I have the complete unabridged copy of it here

http://cronus.com/agenda - warning, it goes into every detail, every nuance, so be prepared.

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[ithacan]

188. LOL -- I love it!

great!

[absyntheNsugar]

190. Just to make it clear

I meant that there is nothing harmful in the book, not the anger. The parents are sickening homophobes in my opinion.

[skypilot]

32. Everyone missed the joke

Prince Lee and Prince Bertie. Lee and Bertie. Lee. Bertie. Say it fast.

[underpants]

39. That's funny

I totally missed it. Gotta go apparently on ly certified teachers and librarians can have opinions on gay books for 6 year olds.

[seabeyond]

44. had to do a handful of times.......but i got it

well that is the nifty of the story.

and i would have issue if my children got that book too, until they have gotten to the age where i have talked this. on the one hand. cause it is the school trying to dictate the agenda of my raising the child.

on the other hand, i would have perused the book and with the insite of liberty i think that is the cutest, so maybe the whole book is that way. and if so, i would have chatted with sons about it. not that they would have picked a book about a prince.

but then i dont have religious issue with it.

then again, i dont talk about sex with my 6 year old and just getting to talking it with almost nine year old, so i wouldnt want the school to be teaching my boys this befroe they are ready for it. not their job to teach this, tis mine

[Bertha Venation]

42. LOVE isn't in your beliefs?!

"My child is not old enough to understand something like that, especially when it is not in our beliefs."

If your child can't understand love, if love isn't in your beliefs, you have serious problems, Mr. Hartsell.

What the hell is it going to take to get people to realize that it's just love? My god.... the mind BOGGLES. :scared:

[nostamj]

48. so, by the homophobic responses

my partner and I should NOT have gone to family dinners, weddings, etc. until ALL CHILDREN PRESENT were over the age of, what, 14?

these attitudes would be sad enough elsewhere, but in this forum???

<where is that shaking head smilie?>

[Dookus]

51. exactly

I have 8 nieces and nephews, all of whom have met my boyfriend. Some where very young (<6) and they were never confused or upset. Two of them have another gay uncle who has always been a part of their lives. They were never once upset by the notion.

[rumguy]

73. nope - your argument sounds like something I'd hear on Hannity

you are trying to pin some extreme position to me...it doesn't fly..

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[adriennel]

79. geez, how old are you?

that you think kids shouldn't learn about sex until 14
sounds like a pretty extreme position to me in this century

[rumguy]

89. we're talking six, not 14

[Terran]

105. It's not ABOUT sex!

How old were you when you heard your first fairytale where the Prince gets his Princess in the end? Was that about sex? No, it was about romance and living happily ever after. So how is it fucking different if it's two men or two women? Six year olds DON"T CARE.

[mondo joe]

128. No Rumguy, you made it perfectly clear

You think 6 year olds are too young to be exposed to same sex relationships.

So at what age do you think kids can be aware of their gay uncle and his boyfriend?

At what age can kids be exposed to their classmate's 2 moms dropping her off at school?

[kayell]

81. Yep, and my 5 year old granddaughter will have to be banned from the house

for the next 9 years. Sadly, her mother is already irrevocably scarred. :eyes:

[Deja Q]

84. His beliefs are laughable, but his point about the child understanding is

not.

Gee, how old is his daughter? Probably "age 6 and up" if we're going by the age range specified by the book. :eyes:

Try 9 instead. Parents would be surprised at what their acts of carnality know by that age. :-)

Screw his beliefs, everybody's going to say something at some point that someone else won't like. Those pigheaded pigs should shut the fuck up. I've been tolerant of faux christians for far too long. And it's about time the non-majority speak up. Well, maybe sarting in 2005 because we don't want to help * win an election legitimately...

[seabeyond]

90. can people be a little patient with parents

we have babies we are raising in a world where a leader is saying god put him in the office to create war in lots of country killing innocent people, they got to experience 9/11 that many adults had a challenge walking thru, we have porn all over the place and children in that porn, we have children being molested by family members and churches, snatched off the street, they are getting footprints taken of them just in case. they are being taught about smoking and alcohol and drug in pre k, they have parents splitting up and remarrying and splitting up again.

there are two working families and they are starting daycare as newborns, from 7a.m. to 6 at night. our children shows are programming the children in angriness and ugliness and disrespect, these are the cartoons and putting sexuality when they arent ready for it.

i have two gay brother in laws, and if they ever brought a partner with them to one of the family gatherings that would be the most graceful and loved filled ways of showing partnership of same gender to my children.

my son was called gay, easy as pie, sometimes male female, female female and male male, all different ways to have a family. didnt talk the sex of it. 6 year old doesnt want sex. my almost 9 year old is just starting to explore, and he asks me the questions and we talk where he wants to go

that is what a parent does

and all the zillions of things our society throw at our young children in this information time, us parents handle it in grace and love the best we can

at what point did we decide we wanted a society that didnt think of the child, .......as a poster said the other day, when will parents do their job. well i tell you, society sure does make it challenging.

[EV1Ltimm]

91. god forbid.

a child that thinks homosexuality is acceptable? anything but that!

</sarcasm>

[seabeyond]

94. it is really easy to dismiss

all a person may be saying with an easy comment like that. then you dont have to have any consideration or thought.....that person is just ugliness. this isnt progressive to me, seems limiting to me

[Stuckinthebush]

110. My 4 and 6 year old have no problem with same sex relationships

"My child is not old enough to understand something like that..."

Bullsh*t! This bigoted woman hasn't exposed her children to "something like that" so she believes that her child can't handle it.

I'd like her children to meet my children and perhaps her children can learn a thing or two.

Two mommies or two daddies isn't strange to children when you bring them up in a home where these relationships aren't frowned upon.

God this kind of idiocy pisses me off...

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mondo joe]

136. The School is not Assuming Any Right

No parent has to let their kid read the book.

No parent has to let their child get library books.

Are you suggesting that the library get the approval of every single parents for every single book in the library?

[Alenne]

139. The book was not about sex.

When Cinderella, Snow White and Sleeping Beauty kiss their prince charming no one equates that with sex. The whole problem with this discussion is a lot of people can't seem to think about homosexual relationships without thinking of intercourse.

[ithacan]

141. "Or you get turned on by trying to arouse a kid with homosexual material."

WTF?

Please go back to whoville.

[cprise]

164. You're out of line... MODS don't like you to speak to 'phobes that way

.

[xchrom]

143. hello? it's not about sex!

if your kids read regular fairy tales, cinderella, sleeping beauty, etc then you don't mind your kid learning about heterosexual relationships and you probably don't object to that -- then why object one of the other ways people love each other.
personally i object to heteros and wouldn't want a child of mine near breeders -- you guys are so, so whats the word? oh yeah bigoted.

[Name removed]

163. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cprise]

177. *** That's it, I'm done with contributing to DU ***

I've had enough homophobe-coddling. I've been on here for years have haven't seen such a blatantly hateful poster protected from direct criticism.

Have a nice life.

[Cronus Protagonist]

186. Welcome to DU, cprise :)

:spank: :nuke: :hi: :yourock:

/sarcasm

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[MAlibdem]

133. hmmmm

i would agree most children are probably to young to understand homosexuality, especially those that are the result of an opposite-sex union

[Alenne]

142. What is so difficult to understand?

[MAlibdem]

157. not hard for me to understand...

im talking about a six-year-old child...

[Alenne]

162. How would it be hard for a six year old?

When my child asked what gay means I told her it was a man who likes men or a woman who likes women. It really wasn't hard and she understood what I meant.

[xchrom]

153. then school them at home

so your prejudice doesn't get spread around.

[Name removed]

156. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[David__77]

165. How is it hard to understand.

It doesn't get hard until adults act unconfortable about it. My spouse's nephew and niece know him and I are together and never thought about it as or were confused about it. I think you should consider giving more credit to children.

[kayell]

168. How to explain homosexuality to a 6 year old

"Some people who love each other are men and women, like mommy and daddy"

"Some people who love each other are both men, or both women, like Uncle Mike and Uncle Todd, or like Ms Anderson and Ms Gray down the street"

See, it's simple. A 3 year old would have no problem understanding it. Do you?

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

222. You underestimate children then

What is so inherently more difficult about understanding that some men fall in love with men than understanding men falling in love with women?

Kids get it. It's adults who don't.

[dawn]

147. Well, I think kids should be taught to tolerate those different than them

Not sure about the book because I haven't read it.

[OneBlueSky]

149. yoicks! . . . almost 150 posts since 3:45 . . .

when I posted this, I didn't realize I'd be opening such a can or worms . . . interesting discussion, though I must admit I haven't pored through all of it yet . . . my own feeling is that any sexual connotations are in the minds of the parents . . . the book was about love, not sex, and love is never wrong . . .

[kayell]

171. Yes, exactly

"any sexual connotations are in the minds of the parents . . . the book was about love, not sex, and love is never wrong . . . "

[Ysabel]

152. i'll bet...

that those parents in wilmington n.c. will get divorced...

they don't know what love is about...

poor kid...

[seabeyond]

154. my children are taught all people are lite, love, spirit

getting beyond the ego of judging or creating one better than the other, or having to win and have a loser.

being nice being kind allowing our lite to shine and finding that in another

when i did address gays, there was not a judgement in it. i have a 6 year old, havent brought up gays. i have an 8 year old, and he brought up gays. and it was simple acceptance, cause in my tone and in my expression there was no condemnation or judgement or ridicule or fear........

i am not worried cause my 6 year old doesnt know what gays is and that my 8 year old has just a limited idea of gays, that they will have a single issue with gays as they get older.

i dont teach to a specific group, i dont need to......i can give them a whole. and as time goes along, they will hear the horrors that gays have had to experience in our society cause of our fears, just as they are starting to learn with women and blacks and any other person terrorized in life for who they are in ignorance

if i lived in a more opened society where gays were living in my neighborhood or children going to my school or playing in my park, there wouldnt have to be a sit down talk, or reading of a book, it would just be a basic learning in observation

[David__77]

159. Wow, a lot of you people are reactionary. You need some educating...

This book is NOT about "sex" any more than a book about with an opposite gender theme.

Either you think homosexuality is normal and OK or you do not.

If you think homosexuality is OK, then why be concerned about a portrayal like this?

If you think it's OK for lesbians and gays to be "out" and fully a part of society, then why is this book a bad idea?

Some parents don't want their children "exposed" to interracial themes either, but I doubt you'd see such sympathy for them here on DU.

It's really too bad. I hope some of you seriously rethink the question, and I suggest you look at a book like this at your local bookstore and read it yourself.

[Duncan Grant]

161. Please Google "King and King" and inform yourself...

don't take this CNN story at face value.

Try searching: "King & King" linda de haan stern nijland

Read a few reviews. Look at the cover art and illustrations.

This is my humble request; do a little research about the book and inform yourself. Then make your decision about it or take a position about its content. :shrug:

[xchrom]

169. they don't care

they simply think explaining gay love will automatically lead to a conversation about extreme sex.
even our many of our liberal straight ''friends'' think they're children are too young to learn that people of the same sex can simply be attracted to each other and love each other.
they equate gay with actuall sex and extreme sex at that -- leather bars, dykes on bikes, and lord only knows whatever else they think -- and that's just the liberal.
get conservative christians involved and it really gets perverted.

[Duncan Grant]

172. Looks like you're right. It's so sad.

Somedays at DU are a real heartbreaker (like today). How hard is it to take a look at the book and the reviews? :shrug:

Jeez, what happened to having an *informed* opinion?

Sad, sad, sad.

[ithacan]

173. I am so saddened by this discussion

I'm a straight guy who's married with two young children. I feel very lucky to live in a community that is very welcoming to same-sex couples and their children. And I'm very glad my children are growing up in this community, know same-sex couples, are friends with their kids. Much of what I've read on this thread saddens me deeply.

[nostamj]

176. some reality from the Amazon page...

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1582460612/002-3762423-0720012?v=glance

Editorial Reviews
From Publishers Weekly
When a grouchy queen tells her layabout son that it's time for him to marry, he sighs, "Very well, Mother.... I must say, though, I've never cared much for princesses." His young page winks. Several unsatisfactory bachelorettes visit the castle before "Princess Madeleine and her brother, Prince Lee" appear in the doorway. The hero is smitten at once. "What a wonderful prince!" he and Prince Lee both exclaim, as a shower of tiny Valentine hearts flutters between them. First-time co-authors and artists de Hann and Nijland matter-of-factly conclude with the royal wedding of "King and King," the page boy's blushing romance with the leftover princess and the assurance that "everyone lives happily ever after." Unfortunately, the multimedia collages are cluttered with clashing colors, amorphous paper shapes, scribbles of ink and bleary brushstrokes; the characters' features are indistinct and sometimes ugly. Despite its gleeful disruption of the boy-meets-girl formula, this alterna-tale is not the fairest of them all. For a visually appealing and more nuanced treatment of diversity in general, Kitty Crowther's recent Jack and Jim is a better choice. Ages 6-up.

Copyright 2002 Cahners Business Information, Inc.



From School Library Journal
Grades 3-5--In this postmodern fractured fairy tale, a worn-out and badly beleaguered Queen is ready for retirement. After many hours of nagging, the crown prince, who "never cared much for princesses," finally caves in and agrees to wed in order to ascend the throne. Their search for a suitable bride extends far and wide, but none of the eligible princesses strikes the Prince's fancy, until Princess Madeleine shows up. The Prince is immediately smitten- with her brother, Prince Lee. The wedding... read more

Book Description
Once there lived a lovelorn prince whose mother decreed that he must marry by the end of the summer. So began the search to find the prince's perfect match and lo and behold… …his name was Lee.

You are cordially invited to join the merriest, most unexpected wedding of the year. King & King is a contemporary tale about finding true love and living happily ever after, sure to woo readers of any age.





See all editorial reviews...

All Customer Reviews
Average Customer Review: Write an online review and share your thoughts with other customers.

10 of 21 people found the following review helpful:

This Book Is Simply Wonderful, January 10, 2003
Reviewer: Jeremy (see more about me) from Los Angeles
I have never come across such a wonderful book. Not only is it beautifuly illustrated, it is sweet and modern. I was so surprised at finding this book; I fell in love with it.

I recomend this book to any reader, young or young at heart. I will surely read this to my future kids!

[rumguy]

189. I'm sorry, but that cover looks really gay...

just kidding...relax...

[Duncan Grant]

196. "Just kidding...relax..."

In some situations (not all), that statement can be interpreted as passive aggressive. "Just kidding...relax" is a form of 'humor'(?) which can be trivializing and confusing.

It makes me sad to see that post; it makes me feel that you are taunting gay people in a very obtuse way. That doesn't mean I'm right about your comment, it's just how it makes me feel. (Just trying to reach out a bit to you rumguy and share my experience...)

[rumguy]

198. sorry - it was meant to be humorously provocative....

and point out that things can be taken out of context

[Duncan Grant]

199. Deleted (by me)

Nevermind.

[rumguy]

226. why did you delete?

[kayell]

192. It looks sweet

I put in an order for my granddaughter. I know I probably wasn't one of the people you addressed this to, but I'm glad you got me to look it up. Thanks.

[Rex]

180. Next thing ya know little Susy will be bringing home books about

princes marrying goats (maybe even male goats)! Then it will be books about wild orgies between chairs and centipedes! For Gods sake, when will we learn to stop thinking!

[Mr.Green93]

191. Akbar and Jeff?

[Cooley Hurd]

203. Akbar and Jeff are gay?

Who knew?;)

[rasputin1952]

195. Well, this is a hot thread!

Caveat: I am posting this as a member of DU, not as a mod!



From reading all of the posts, I see a lot of people I have a great deal of respect for, refusing to accept that some people have different views than others.

I do not think this makes some people homophobes necessarily, nor do I think this makes some people straight haters. I think that when it comes to children, we as a society have the responsibility to educate our children to all forms of the society we are in. I think that parents of these children, have the final say. Those children are being brought up by parents, more than anyone else.

It is sad that many have not yet come to an understanding that there are various differences among people about how they decide to go through life. If there is love, I see little problem in which way a person decides to live their lives. But as a parent, I have the responsibility to ensure my children knew that some people believe things that are different from what I believe in. Does that make the others wrong? Of course not. I would be a fool to dig my heels in on virtually any hot button topic. I am flexible, others are not.

In this instance, since I do not live in the school district involved, nor the state; I would think that there should have been a meeting on this item. All sides could have sat down, and discussed this. I am not for banning any book, if I don't feel like reading it, I don't pick it up, pretty simple. With kids in school, it IS a little different, it is a public forum, and the public should have input into how that system works.

Arguing, calling people names, or lowering the level of discourse, will, in my opinion, lead to misunderstandings and eventual violence.
This is unacceptable, we are all people, and we should discuss situations like this in civil tones, then we can reach a consensus.

Once the gloves come off, we go into defensive positions, and at that point, there is not much hope for forward progress on any side.

I do not know all of the particulars in this case, but I might suggest that understanding from all of the elements involved, would be a far better thing than watching a great group of people mistakenly condemn each other.

thanks for letting me put my 2 cents in. I love you all, and hate to see this turn into a flamefest; it is an issue that needs to be discussed.

O8)

[Cooley Hurd]

200. Agreed, Rasputin1952!

The sooner we remove the stigma that others put on homosexuality, the sooner we can get past the discourse caused by lack of understanding.

IMHO, It's okay for any age to be exposed to every lifestyle - maybe then they'll grow up to accept everyone, and reject bigotry. Let's join hands... ;)

[Fescue4u]

197. It should not be in elementary schools

Children should not be exposed to this sort of thing.

Its tough enough teaching children about normal relationships and the birds and bees, etc.

To start out with alternative lifestyles before they've had a chance to fully assimliate normal lifestyles is just wrong and confusing.

I don't see a problem with this starting at about Jr. High or High school though.

[Duncan Grant]

201. Exposed to *what* sort of thing?

With all due respect, what sort of thing? :shrug:

Please look at the book and its reviews (Google worked well for me). If you would do me that small favor...I'll be happy to agree to disagree with you about it.

[Fescue4u]

204. The homosexual book

Its about a childrens homosexual book.

Homosexuality is not my sort of thing, but between adults who cares who what they do?

However when we are talking about children, especially my own children, my guard goes up automatically.


Im raising my children to be tolerant and understanding. But first things first. I have a 6 year old (and 5 and a 7), and Im not about to start discussing homosexuality until he has a few more years under his belt.

[Dookus]

215. I hope all your kids are queer

so you can see how fucked up your attitude is.

[Fescue4u]

219. Why would you wish that on someones children?

Pretty brave thing to say with the shield of Internet anonymity.

[mondo joe]

221. It's not exactly a curse

It's not exactly a curse.

[kayell]

234. It might be a curse for the children of the person you responded to

A parent that won't let his children know that gays exist is not going to be the best person to deal with an adolescent or pre-adolescent trying to figure out why they are different than what mom and dad have taught them is the only way.

[seabeyond]

237. this person didnt say wont let children know gay exists

just dont want it learned in school from a book. further i think he/she said it would be the best for the child to visually see the gay couple bring a child into school in a more natural way. that doesnt sound homphobic to me. or an unwillingness to teach child about gays

[Dookus]

224. because it's not a curse

to be gay, despite your views on the subject.

[Duncan Grant]

223. We agree to disagree.

Thank you for responding.

[mondo joe]

202. Should gay parents be in elementary schools?

Should parents with gay kids be able to visit the schools, drop off or pick up their kids there?

What if the kids are exposed to the fact the gay people exist before they're in high school?

[Fescue4u]

205. Why Of course.

I cant imagine why you would have a problem with it.

Now if a set of Gay parents began visting the classrooms and starting discussing homosexuality with the kids...with my kids, I would have a problem.

[mondo joe]

206. Don't you think your kids will notice that Helen has two dads?

Don't you think your kids would notice that their classmate has two dads? Or two moms? Who live together?

I know all the classmates of my kids and they know me - do you think they don't have a clue who I'm married to?

[Fescue4u]

213. Maybe. Maybe not

Kids will learn from the world around them and thats usually ok.

However I feel no need to force homosexuality on them at such a young age.

In fact, I would say that such a scenerio that you describe (two moms pickup up their kid), would be a much preferable way for them to learn about this. In other words, they'll see it in a normal everyday way.

As opposed to reading about a glorified gay relationship between two "Kings" in a fairy tale setting. While Im tolerant, I don't want kids to have the impression that its the "in thing" to be gay.

In fact, I doubt the kids would give much thought if two guys, or two women picked up a class mate.

Then later, when they learn what homosexuality is, the light bulb will come on (Oh...just like billy dads etc).

Personally, I just feel that going out our way to print a book about this and have kids read it, is going to far.

[mondo joe]

220. What's the book going to do? TURN a kid gay?

"In fact, I would say that such a scenerio that you describe (two moms pickup up their kid), would be a much preferable way for them to learn about this. In other words, they'll see it in a normal everyday way.

As opposed to reading about a glorified gay relationship between two "Kings" in a fairy tale setting. While Im tolerant, I don't want kids to have the impression that its the "in thing" to be gay."

I hope you're also shoelding them from Cinderella and Snow White lest they think it's the "in thing" to shack up with a bunch of dwarves, or that monarchy is the "in thing".

"In fact, I doubt the kids would give much thought if two guys, or two women picked up a class mate."

Since I am gay and have two kids, I'll tell you that we know the kids and they know us. Not just at school - there are sleep overs and play dates and so on.

"Personally, I just feel that going out our way to print a book about this and have kids read it, is going to far."

I think that's too bad. There are kids with gay people in their lives and there's no reason they shouldn't see it in books.

If people don't want to risk their kids learning anything they shouldn't let them go to the library.

Next thing you'll be saying the library shouldn't carry any books about science because it might conflict with someone's religious beliefs.

[Fescue4u]

225. Possibly

Kids are impressionable. I could easily see a boy deciding that he wants to marry a man when he grows up, based up reading this book.

As for your non sequitor about science books..thats just silly.

Look, Heres the deal:

Its ok to be Gay, but even the gayest person among us has to admit that there are downsides to the lifestyle...such as getting married for one.

With thats said, I prefer..no, I WANT my kids to grow up normal, by standards of normal society. I want my boys to marry girls, and my girl to marry a boy. I want them to be accepting and tolerant of gays. I want them to be Democrats, I want them to be liberal. I don't want them to be gay or republican.

Now if they turn out to be gay or republican..i'll love them just the same. But I want them to have a headstart on being normal....I don't want such books to have a headstart on being Gay (nor republican)

Now if that upsets some people, then damnit they are not very tolerant themselves.

[mondo joe]

227. Nowhere to go with that. Books don't turn people gay.

If you really thik a book can turn someone gay, it might explain your position but it's incredibly out there.

By the time your child is 6 his or her sexuality is pretty fixed. A book isn't going to change that.

And if that's a risk, you'll have to admit that seeing a classmates two dads might "turn" your child gay as well. So you ought to be opposed to your kids being exposed to them also.

And if you're so deeply committed to your kids conforming to a norm, you'd better keep any books about interracial relationships out of their hands as well.


PS: If you want your kids to be liberal, as you say, and normal, you're hoping for two different things. Unless you're living outside the USA.

[Duncan Grant]

228. Normal?

That's a subjective viewpoint to say the least!

Thanks for pathologizing me. :grr:

[Alenne]

232. If people are more accepting of gays

then your children won't have to face the downsides to being gay. This sounds like people who say I don't want my child to marry outside of their race because of all of the problems they will have to face or because their kids will be treated differently. I guess some people don't realize if you don't treat gay people differently there will be no downside.

[Fescue4u]

235. Oh I agree 100%

"then your children won't have to face the downsides to being gay."

But Im not about trade my kids well being to add .000000001% to the greater good.

[Alenne]

208. I am confused about your post.

What would be the problem?

[mondo joe]

212. I'm not the one who has a problem with it - but....

I was responding to someone who said these little kids shouldn't be exposed to homosexuality.

So I'm asking wouldn't your kids be exposed to homosexuality if their classmates have gay parents? What should happen then - should the gay parents not come in the school so that other 1st graders won't know they exist? Should they pretend to not be a couple?

For those who feel the princes who falll in love in King & King is too much for children to be exposed to, what do they propose is done with actual real life homosexuals?

[Alenne]

218. I was responding to post 205

[Dookus]

211. Oh where to begin...

first...

It's my LIFE not a fucking lifestyle.

second...

My LIFE is pretty fucking normal. I don't live in a leather bar or wear mardi-gras boas year-round.

third....

Do you know where adult queers come from? They come from little queers. I was one at age 6, and such a book would've made a HUGE difference in my life. It would've shown that I wasn't the ONLY person in the world like me. It would've shown others that love is love, regardless of the plumbing of the people involved.

fourth....

This is NOT a book about anal sex. It's a romantic fairy-tale. Any child can deal with this at any age.

[Moderator]

236. I we have discussed this long enough

Locking.

[noiretextatique]

207. teaching tolerance

the film, showed that young children are the most open and equalitarian...they really don't understand prejudice YET. but by the time kids are in high school, they have unlearned their natural acceptance of difference, and already have entrenched prejudices. nice job, america :hi:

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

209. Wassa big deal?

My daughter wouldn't have batted an eye at that in the first grade. Why? She asked me in Kindergarten what gay meant and I said "Most men fall in love with women and most women fall in love with men, but some men fall in love with men and some women fall in love with women."

Her reaction? "Oh. OK."

It just hasn't been a big deal. People, clue your kids in a bit, would ya? They know by first grade that men and women fall in love, why not know that men and men and women and women fall in love, too? It's not like you are making a STATEMENT about it, just sharing a fact.

Geez.

Seriously if everyone would unpucker themselves on this issue, things would be a looooot easier.

[Alenne]

217. For some this isn't about falling in love.

They only see gay people as sexual people. They feel if you start talking to kids about gay people you will have to talk about anal sex and all that stuff. Everybody has heard someone say "I don't care what people do in their own bedroom". As if the only thing gay people do is have sex.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

229. I wanted to add

that I don't think my daughter has yet figured out homosexual SEX. She does know about the mechanics of hetero sex (she is 9) but hasn't shown much interest in understanding what homosexuality looks like in the bedroom, so we haven't volunteered (we answer questions as they come up and have a close relationship...she's very open about her questions...).

So whatdayaknow? A nine year old who has understood the concepts of both homosexual and heterosexual love since she was five and it isn't all about sex.

BTW, I was watching Noggin late one night with my daughter and Avatar Theater came on and the punch line was that one boy "liked" another boy. We were watching DeGrassi Junior High at the time. I noticed my daughter didn't even react, except to chuckle at the humor of the situation.

And at the middle school where I teach, several kids are known to be gay or bi. NONE OF THE OTHER KIDS CARE. Seriously. THEY DON'T CARE. In fact, they joke about how "Mark" likes "Steven" but "Steven" doesn't like "Mark" back the same way they joke about hetero relationships.

[Shifty-Eyed Llama]

231. I don't like it either.

I wouldn't want my kid reading books at a young age about controversial relationships like that. They're just too young.

And don't flame me and call me a homophobe and all that...I'm not. They're just kids, that's why I don't like it.