Socialists...The Zombies who won the Spanish Election

[windansea]

Despite what you may have heard, socialism isn't dead. It's undead, a zombie that still roams the earth uncertain what to do with itself since its demise. It was sighted again this week, somewhere on the Iberian Peninsula, though some observers dismissed the reports. Sure, a group named the Socialist Workers Party won the elections in Spain, and a Socialist named José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero is slated to become the country's next prime minister. But it says something about the state of small-"s" socialism—in addition to the state of the world—that conservatives are attacking Zapatero for his response to terrorism, not his attitude toward capitalism.

Granted, the war in Iraq and the war against al-Qaida are the whole reason the world has been watching Spain so closely for the past week. But there's another reason for the conservative silence about Zapatero's economics: The socialist debate over what to do about capitalism—and the proletariat, and the theory of surplus value, and the ownership of the means of production—is largely over in Europe. If the old libel against American liberals is that they're socialists, the new European libel against socialists is that they're liberals—classical ones. Here are some of the economic promises on which Zapatero's Socialist Workers Party campaigned: lowering the corporate tax rate from 35 percent to 30 percent, cutting income taxes, and reducing the value-added tax. Oh, and they're going to balance the budget and control inflation. The man expected to be the Socialist finance minister, Miguel Sebastian, is a U.S.-educated economist with a Ph.D. from the University of Minnesota. He's promising to put his faith in the Invisible Hand. "There will be a strict separation between politics and business," he told the Financial Times. "We will be a market-friendly government." These are socialists?

They're what's left of them. The 43-year-old Zapatero took the helm of the Socialist Workers Party in 2000, in the wake of a disastrous election for the party. That year, the Socialists allied themselves with the Communists, known as the United Left, but for the first time since Franco's death in 1975, the Socialists and the United Left together did not win a majority of Spanish votes. In the wake of that defeat, Zapatero pledged to follow a "Nueva Via," or New Way, rhetorically aligning himself with the "New Democrats" of Bill Clinton, the "Third Way" of Tony Blair, and the "New Middle" of Gerhard Schröder. He would navigate between market fundamentalism and state socialism. The clear message: The era of big socialism is over.

more

http://slate.msn.com/id/2097360/

[camero]

1. Communism is dead

Social Democracy is alive and well. In Europe.

[Deja Q]

5. Canada had a $8 billion surplus last year too...

And they're somewhat socialist, complete with universal health care coverage whose quality could hardly be worse than the USA's.

[camero]

6. Oh crikey

How could I leave out Canada? It's only my favorite place in the world. :)

[leesa]

12. There health care is waaaay ahead of ours. We are rated 16th

(by the WHO) of all industrialized countries. My day to day experience in health care tells me that is being way too generous.

[TinaTyson]

11. And economic democracy is popping up in many places.

Mostly countries destroyed by 'structural adjustments' and/or war.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=41&ItemID=5107

[Nevernose]

20. Remember when unions had power?

This one paragraph says it all:

While an outstanding order to evict these workers has existed for nearly a year, the government will not order the police to fulfill it because the political costs would be too high- groups ranging from the teachers' union to the petroleum workers' union to the Catholic Church have said that if there is an eviction they will call a general strike throughout the province until the situation is resolved.

What kind of country would we have, if -- when one gorup of people had a problem -- other people helped them. Teachers not teaching, preachers not preasching. Food not being picked, much less being delivered. Ordinary folks, like you and me and even the people at FR unwilling to cross a picket line.

What the hell has happened to unions in this country? Just how soft have we gotten?

[Walt Starr]

2. BRAVO FOR THE SOCIALISTS! UP THE POPULAR PARTY!!!

and to hell with anybody who criticizes them. They won because the popular party is made up of lying bastards.

[Deja Q]

3. To lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose.

If capitalism is the supposed big winner... the other fun-time maxim is "the bigger they are, the harder they fall" then comes into play.

Guess what's about to fall, via peak oil runoff, corporate chicanery (outsourcing), housing bubble burst, inflation bubble about to expand, and/or the demise of the middle class COMBINED with the efforts of the repukes over the last 24 straight years to shift the tax burden TO the middle class? No middle class that's supposed to be there to pay the bulk of the taxes = big-ass disaster. (not to forget the astronomical increase in health care which has put many a person into financial ruin... There are big problems here and corporate america CEOs only care about themselves. America is going to fall with a gigantic thud. And after that happens, you'll find more people preferring to help Humpty Dumpty instead...)

In other words, there's no such thing as a perfect system if nobody is ethical enough to maintain regulation. That's why socialism fell. That's why commie China will fail. That's also why American capitalism is going to fall the hardest.

[JanMichael]

4. It's a complicated issue. We know how violent the wealthy are...

...when threatened to be brought back down to Humanity, you know, they don't actually believe that the divine right of kings was ever challenged. Sooo while we wait for scum like the neo-cons to show Capitalism's true colors, Fascism, ie. The Iron Heel, and wait for their inevitable end (Eating each other up with the giant swindling machine), we try to make life a little better for those who aren't born with a silver spoon sticking out of their anus.

So what we get is Spain's Party. That OK for now.

[windansea]

8. by lowering corporate tax rates? n/t

[JanMichael]

9. Avarice is still powerful. So if that's what it took to be close...

...enough to take the election then fine. Notice that Spain's media would've made Putin blush.

Plus I don't know their entire economic policy, or what they intend to do in a year or two, so making a value judgement on one or two public comments now is foolish IMHO.

You know, big picture and such.

Hell a Flat tax would be fine as well after a little "Levelling":-)

Edited for fun word insertion in subject line.

[MrPrax]

7. Wither Fukuyama!!! n/t

[windansea]

10. ......

"The End of the Nation-State argues that the territorial nation-state is giving way: from without, to a welter of overlapping, transnational networks fueled by information technology; from within, to subnational ethnic communities. At stake is the future of democracy." —Francis Fukuyama, Foreign Affairs

[Minstrel Boy]

17. Francis Fukyama, founding member of PNAC?

Any sage quotes from Paul Wolfowitz or Gary Bauer, hmmm?

"Such a Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity may not be fashionable today. But it is necessary if the United States is to build on the successes of this past century and to ensure our security and our greatness in the next."
http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

[FDRrocks]

42. B/C Corporatism is the peak of humanity...

right Francis, the end of history is nigh.

[FDRrocks]

65. to quote Cyndi Lauper

"I see your true colors"...

[9215]

13. One thing Socialists and Communists do well

They are hell on drug dealing and other organized crime problems. Read Alfred McCoy's "Politics of Heroin". China got their drug problem cut by something like 80% inthe WWII era. Chiang Kai shek was booted to Taiwan and later his family and friends plied their craft with Vietnam. Kai Shek, often touted as the shining light of freedom in the region, was actually profiteering off the Japaneze Army drug trade while they were at war with China. Nice capitalist eh.

Cuba's Fidel Castro kicked the drug thugs out of Cuba along with their prostitution and gambling businesses and upset this hemispheres illegal drug trade for decades. Cuba was a prime transhipment point for drugs coming into the US. Also Cuba has some excellent medical research, high literacy rate (90% range). IMO booting these crooks and thugs is one of the main reasons the Cuban Mafia have been stewing about Castro.

[windansea]

34. they are hell on free speech too

http://www.rsf.fr/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=20

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kayell]

43. Socialism vs Communism vs Free Press

Once again, confusing socialism and communism doesn't work. If you look at your map, you will notice that the Scandanavian countries so often spoken of as having a socialist society/govt. are better at freedom of the press than the US is. Lumping European style socialism in with the situation in Cuba is ridiculous.

[bobbyboucher]

14. Won't this take time from your witch hunt?

Is your girlfriend a socialist zombie too?

[Redleg]

15. Are you Otto Reich by any chance?

Just checking.

[blm]

16. Michael Ledeen?

;)

[windansea]

18. Fidel

is that you??

[Minstrel Boy]

21. boo!

[iverglas]

51. better one ;)

Now we just wonder whether anybody recognizes the other guy ... let alone the babe on Fidel's arm. (Did she?)

[frank frankly]

24. ANOTHER STRAWMAN!

THE WIND AND THE SEA CALLED...THEY DON'T WANT TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH YOU!!!!

windanseawindanseawindanseawindanseawindanseawindanseawindanseawindanseawindanseawindanseawindansea
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windanseawindanseawindanseawindansea
:puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke:
:puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke:
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[windansea]

26. boo!!

[frank frankly]

30. they don't like you and neither does whoever drew that comic

ON EDIT: don't feed the trolls, frank.

[windansea]

36. thanks..I'll take Muddy over Morrison any day!!!

[Redleg]

46. I do agree with you about Muddy- he's the best!

About Venezuela and Chavez, we'll have to disagree.

[windansea]

49. at least you are nice about it

:thumbsup:

[bvar22]

19. Unfortunately, feudalism has been revived...

...and is thriving in the USA.

It is pure Wealthy Elite republican bullshit to pronounce socialism DEAD, though limbaugh and the NeoCons (and NeoLibs) would like everyone here to believe it.

Black is white
Good is bad
Toxic waste is good for you
Socilaism is dead
Tax cuts for the ultra rich creates jobs
Iraq had WMD and ties to Al Qaeda
Overthrowing Chavez will be good for the people of Venezuela

Different day, same old lying bullshit!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

22. Just go away...you're beginning to bore me.

[markses]

23. Communism was always dead: A SPECTRE is haunting Europe

"Ein Gespenst geht um Europa, das Gespenst des Kommunismus Alle Mächte des alten Europa haben sich zu einer heiligen Hetzjagd gegen dies Gespenst verbündet, der Papst und der Zar, Metternich und Guizot, französische Radikale und deutsche Polizisten."

A spectre is haunting Europe, the spectre of communism. All the forces of old Europe, Pope and Tsar, Metternich and Guizot, French radicals and German police, have joined into a holy alliance to exorcise this spectre."

You don't even have to read two words in The Communist Manifesto to see that Marx himself characterized communism as a phantasm - a ghost....never quite present, but never quite absent either.

[AP]

25. If you read articles on the PSOE's website on taxation, you get quite a...

...different impression.

Eg: http://www.psoe.es/ambito/economia/docs/index.do?action=View&id=16776

Here, they talk about balancing budgets only if it doesn't sacrifice social welfare, and they argue for progresive taxation, and against the BS rightwing attitude towards taxation.

[thebigidea]

27. reminds me of stuff I used to get in the mail from

"The Christian Anti-Communism Crusade"

Thanks for keeping the tradition alive...

[Minstrel Boy]

28. Wolverines!

[markses]

64. The Wolverines of Red Dawn = The Viet Cong

That's the funniest subtexct of the movie. Ummmm, let's see, mechanized army invading a rural area and doing battalion sized sweep operations, rounding the locals up into "New Life Hamlets."???? Who could that be? Oh, and only at the time when the entire culture industry is trying to recuperate America's genocidal adventure in Indochina? Hmmmmm. How mysterious. The funniest thing in the world is that the right wing loves Red Dawn, when the "Wolverines" are nothing but the sad attempt to hide the fact that the patriots are the Viet Cong, and the nasty mechanized army the Americans. Same deal: Why does Rambo have long hair and a head band. Cuz the right wing does not have an original idea, and has no power other than the power of appropriation: Be like the hippies Rambo - be like the hippies!!!!

The same thing today: the whole conservative argument for white victimization is nothing more than an appropriation of real victims. You'll even hear DUers who are otherwise serious asking ignorant questions like "Why is it right for a black person to call me a honkey, but wrong for me to say nigger?" or "Why can they sick prick, but not cunt?" as if these were equivalent!! Wolverines!!!!! One wonders what the similar saying is in Vietnamese?

[jpgray]

29. Slate proves once again that it is mostly just a piece of shit (nt)

[IndianaGreen]

31. Those "Zombies" are bringing their troops home from Iraq

I don't see Bush or Kerry talking about an immediate US withdrawal.

[corporatewhore]

32. JK and GW dont mind seeing any more Ghosts ofTroops or innocent iraqis

I wonder how they sleep at night

[Zomby Woof]

33. let's hear it for ZombySocialists!

:bounce:

[rman]

37. RW out of power, windansea unhappy

'nuf said

[Michael Costello]

38. If socialism is dead...

why must they keep defaming it and proclaiming its death?

It was proclaimed back when the USSR broke up...
they felt the need to put out the "big black book of communism" or whatever, whom Pinochet is said to have a copy of handy always, and which says the usual nonsense about Central American movement...
now they are proclaiming, once again, socialism is dead...

All this in the midst of a world economy that has been pretty stagnant since the late 1960s, and which crises (recessions), unemployment have been becoming more acute. If you look at the US, the average inflation-adjusted hourly wage is below what it was 30 years ago. Not anything to write home about.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

40. WTF is up with this kid?

Maybe he'll be happy if Franco is brought back from the dead and put in power. After all many of the remnants of the Genaralisimo's fascist party ended up in the PP.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

48. I'd rather not. That shit might be contagious.

[Tinoire]

39. Haha. Once again the PEOPLE have spoken and some don't like it

What a surprise! Thank God we have the US Supreme Court in this country willing to step in and stop the people of the United States from putting anyone sounding too populist in office. Thank God too for these scary old men and their millions of Right Wing morans keeping America safe from the threat of anything socialist.



The Reds are coming, the Reds are coming.... Arghhhhhh

============================

Awwww, damn, and the Spaniards are pulling their troops out of Iraq... Such crimes these zombies are committing!

[windansea]

44. interesting

I have no complaints about the results of the election in Spain, I posted this article because I thought the platform of cutting taxes was interesting for a socialist party.

What's interesting is your response that the "PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN"

I agree and am happy for them...they made what they think is the best choice for their country...why is it you don't want the people of Venezuela to "speak" as well??

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

41. I think disclosing members of your ignore list is kinda rude...

...but in your case I'm willing to make an exception. Welcome.

Hint for everybody else: threads posted by an "Ignored" member don't appear in the room list.

[Vladimir]

45. Windandsea

From now on I am adopting a policy of automatically worshipping anyone you oppose. I will consequently add to my shrines to Castro and Chavez an altar to Zapatero in the coming days.

If I told you what I really think of your post(s), I would be tombstoned immediately. I will instead quote an old socialist chant to you:

Death to fascism! Freedom to the people! Long live Yugoslavia! Long live Marsal Tito!

Vladimir

[windansea]

50. knee jerks violently

by the way, I have no problems with Zapatero...just thought his platform was interesting for a socialist party.

You probably won't be voting for Kerry as he won't be worshipping Castro or Chavez with you.

[Vladimir]

52. I won't be

voting Kerry cos I am not American darling. Besides

Kerry < Bush => Vote Kerry

Socialism doesn't require morality - just as well for me then.

V

[windansea]

53. so you think Kerry = Bush?

how did I know that already....I love my intuition...

:hug: self hug

[Vladimir]

54. OK, I forgot who I am talking to

to spell it out for you:

I t-h-i-n-k K-e-r-r-y < B-u-s-h h-e-n-c-e v-o-t-e K-e-r-r-y

there, is that more comprehensible now?

V

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

55. Be careful bro. You might get smacked by an irrelevant 2 year old article.

Those < > symbols are always so confusing.

[Vladimir]

56. Its all good my man

To quote my favourite world leader:

Bring 'em on!

V

[corporatewhore]

57. ratherhave a socialist zomby pull out than a fascist monster whod want to

continue to kill working class troops and innocent iraqis to fatten their pocket books

[JanMichael]

61. Exactly. I can't fathom the type of "human" who would defend old school...

...fascists and US supported dictators.

We've got people here effectively defending ex-Franco punks, ex-Duvalier killers and ex-Venezuelan supporting Coke dealers. Hell next we'll probably get a thread attacking Lagos in Chile, VIVA PINOCHE!

Fucking amazing.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

58. arnt these really Social-Democrats?

There havnt been real marxist socialists around for a long time.

The social democraic movement pretty much has moved in a more realistic direction in terms of reforming capitalism, or mitigating its harsher edges, rather than "revolution via the ballot box".

So I dont really see the beef with the Spanish socialists, or any European social-democratic party.

[camero]

59. Anything to the left of feudalism

Seems to be Marxist nowadays.

[windansea]

60. no beef here

just thought it funny they were running on cutting taxes

[AP]

62. See post 25. If you read their website, you get a different version of...

...things that provided by US media.

Any surprises there?

[FlemingsGhost]

63. AT least THIS story isn't two years old, windansea.

Seeing that you have ZERO credibility regarding Chavez... I suppose Sr. Zapatero will have to do.