Mel Gibson and the Republicans

[roberthall10]

This is scary and weird as hell:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/02/national/02GIBS.html

[slappypan]

1. Mel's film sounds utterly unwatchable

It sounds every bit as bad and self-indulgent as the Ben-Lo debacle Gigli, but I think critics are afraid to ridicule religious subject matter.

[WoodrowFan]

2. Careful

I got kinda flamed for bringing this up a couple weeks ago. I agree with you tho...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=110&topic_id=240&mesg_id=240#470

[qb]

3. Gibson calls it "biblically accurate"

Why not call it "mythologically factual"?

[bryant69]

7. Because the term Mythologically factual . . .

has no meaning--what myth are you talking about? In fact such a phrase seems like a simple juvenile slam at Christianity.

The Bible, whether you believe it the word of God or not, is definately a story told a certain way. One can be accurate to that text. In the same way we've seen dozens of versions of Hamlet. Some of them have been based closely on shakespears text and others have been changed throughout. So one can certainly say that Kenneth Branaugh's Hamlet is more "Hamlet Accurate" than, say, Mel Gibsons.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[qb]

9. I guess I'm just ironically inept

my bad.

[Sirius_on]

15. Where have you been....You know religion is fair game here

Muslim=cool
Athiest=cool
Buddism=extra cool
Wicca=cool
Christianity=not cool


The DU script for religion.

[starroute]

11. I suppose that translates to "not historically accurate"

One thing that's acknowledged by everyone but the fundies is that the gospels are not true to the facts of early-1st century Israel. They don't get the geography right, they don't get the historical events right, and they don't get the legal systems right. It's clear that after the destruction of the Temple and the start of the Disapora, people very quickly forgot how things had actually been.

The anti-Semitism in the gospel accounts is one of those indications of how different everything was by the second century. It reflects the movement of the early Christian Church away from its Jewish base, a perceived need to make nice to the Romans by largely absolving them of blame, and a willingness to jiggle the description of the legal proceedings surrounding the Crucifixion in a way that supported those new attitudes.

For Gibson to say that his film is "Biblically accurate" is an indirect acknowledgement that he doesn't care about history -- he just wants to appeal to long-established prejudices.

[Character Assassin]

12. How did you come to that conclusion?

The anti-Semitism in the gospel accounts is one of those indications of how different everything was by the second century. It reflects the movement of the early Christian Church away from its Jewish base, a perceived need to make nice to the Romans by largely absolving them of blame, and a willingness to jiggle the description of the legal proceedings surrounding the Crucifixion in a way that supported those new attitudes.

This film is apparantly only about the last 12 hours of Christ's life. Where do you find the anti-semitism either in the gospel accounts of this story or in Gibson's rendering of it? He is a Christian, and it seems pretty normal for him to desire to portray the events according to what the gospels describe.

What, specifically, is anti-semitic about that?

For Gibson to say that his film is "Biblically accurate" is an indirect acknowledgement that he doesn't care about history -- he just wants to appeal to long-established prejudices.

It seems to me that that's just reading waaaaay too much into this. Where, specifically, do you seem him attempting to appeal to 'long-established prejudices'?

[Liberator_Rev]

13. You're absolutely right on all counts, Starroute.

These "Christians" aren't content with the Jews exterminated in the name of Christ. See http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/RCscandal .

[tjdee]

4. What's scary/weird about it?

Obviously the film was shown to people who can recommend it to others (obviously Christians are the primary market for the film, and Republicans are all tied up in that). Those people would also bitch the most about it. He's probably looking to avoid another "Temptation of Christ".

[muchacho]

5. Last temptation of Christ

I saw this movie twice in the same day it opened just to piss off the protesters outside.

I'll skip this movie in the same spirit.

[searchingforlight]

6. Would that the last scene in Braveheart had been real.

[Az]

8. Unfortunately people forget

that the religions teach different stories.

There has been a truce between the various teachings for some time now. The advances of science and social changes have been causing trouble for the orthodox churches. Thus they had to focus on these issues. Also there has been the Israel situation which plays into both religions nicely. But with all the talk about worshipping the same god it is often forgotten that the stories attributed to this god on both sides are very different.

Remember people have fought and killed because of these differences. It is the very reason we have the wall of seperation. The nature of the human mind is that when it comes to absolute beliefs we tend to be uncompromising. These groups can get along for a time as long as they have common interest but in the end whether they claim to worship the same god or not one belief has the god sending himself as his son down to earth to save everyone while the other god has not done this. Things are different.

[Cappadonna]

10. Couple things about this will be Turkey

One: Mel has been going over the wingnut deep end since he made braveheart. He's always been kind of a right wing nut, but this shit is odd even for him. I would have to say that I admire the man for putting up his own money to make this uh...er...masterpiece. Not too many actors would sink their own cash and reputation into a project that could be deemed the most racist movie since "Birth of a Nation". And this loon wasn't going to show a film entirely in Latin with subtitles. Yeah, Mel's really even keel these days.

Two: He will make the money back, in spades, because Wingnuts tend to like the insipid forms of media that confirm their own narrow-minded views. As I recovering fundy, I know my clan...i.e. evangelical Christians. No matter how idiotic, racist, sexist or mindnumbing stupid a movie is, slap "Christian" on the title, and the Bible-thumpers will flock to cinemas like maggots to roadkill. Hell, Kirk Cameron has made two (yes, two) movies based on that God Awful "Left Behind" series, and both were quite successful. Laugh if you want, but Mel is rolling weighted dice, he knows that his movie will become the next "Jesus Movie", that groups like the Campus Crusade for Christ will ship around the planet trying to enforce their right wing dogma on Brown people.

Three: This movie shows the true colors of wingnuts on all sides, both Catholic and Protestant. They are first and foremost, anti-Semitic and racist to their core. These people wouldn't know how to related to Jews unless they were trying to convert or kill them. (Well, for many a fundie, those are the only two ways they can relate to people that aren't "Christian", but Jews are special brand of nasty) Basically, most evangelicals I know still think Jews killed Christ (though both biblically and historically, it was a conspiracy or high ranking religious powerbrokers and the Roman government.) Which begs to question (don't use this thread, please):

How can Sharon be so buddy with Evangelical loons like Smirk when he knows that his wingnut backers would nuke every Jew from Tel Aviv to the West Bank without a bat of an eye?

[Character Assassin]

14. Where are you getting that?

I would have to say that I admire the man for putting up his own money to make this uh...er...masterpiece.

Have you seen the movie?

Not too many actors would sink their own cash and reputation into a project that could be deemed the most racist movie since "Birth of a Nation".

Oh, come one. How on earth can you possibly support that statement?

And this loon wasn't going to show a film entirely in Latin with subtitles. Yeah, Mel's really even keel these days.

It's his movie, his muse and his money. I hardly see calling the shots because you're paying for something as not having an 'even keel'.

He will make the money back, in spades, because Wingnuts tend to like the insipid forms of media that confirm their own narrow-minded views.

Have you seen the movie? How, precisely, is this movie 'insipid', and what basis do you have for thinking that he is trying to make money back off of sales to fundies?

As I recovering fundy, I know my clan...i.e. evangelical Christians. No matter how idiotic, racist, sexist or mindnumbing stupid a movie is, slap "Christian" on the title, and the Bible-thumpers will flock to cinemas like maggots to roadkill.

Like the 'Last Temptation of Christ'?

Hell, Kirk Cameron has made two (yes, two) movies based on that God Awful "Left Behind" series, and both were quite successful.

The evidence does not support your claim: According to the movies.com web site, Left Behind grossed $2.15 million on 867 screens in its first week, making it 17th on the national box office top-50 list. By week five it had fallen to 38th, showing on only 70 screens nationwide, with gross revenues of just $3.9 million. By comparison, the romantic comedy "Head Over Heels," also in its fifth week, trailed Left Behind at number 45 but had earned more than $10 million. The movie’s poor revenues suggest that it never got traction, even in regions where "Bible believers" abound.

Laugh if you want, but Mel is rolling weighted dice, he knows that his movie will become the next "Jesus Movie", that groups like the Campus Crusade for Christ will ship around the planet trying to enforce their right wing dogma on Brown people.

I'm sorry, that's just cynical, and I see zero evidence that he made this movie for the purposes you are contending.

This movie shows the true colors of wingnuts on all sides, both Catholic and Protestant. They are first and foremost, anti-Semitic and racist to their core.

There is no evidence that this movie is anti-semitic other than some peoples' opinions.

[Doctor Pedantic]

16. Let's Take A Deep Breath Here

Aren't we supposed to be the defenders of the First Amendment and non-judgmentalism? Aren't we outraged by book burnings and people condemning movies and books that they haven't seen or read? This controversy provides the perfect opportunity for the Right to label us as hypocrites.

As a card-carrying member of both an Evangelical church and the ACLU (there's no conflict whatsoever there, but that's another discussion thread...), I hate to see all the attacks on this film.

It is unfortunate that the story of the crucifixion -- written by Jewish people, by the way -- has been twisted for centuries to justify antisemitism. But that doesn't mean that the Passion story is inherently antisemitic. All it says is that some Jewish people wanted Jesus dead. That is certainly feasible; under conservative readings of the Hebrew Scriptures, blasphemy was punishable by death, and calling yourself God could certainly be construed as blasphemous. Many other Jewish people, including 11/12 of the apostles, obviously did not want to see Jesus killed. Ultimately, it was the Roman government, not the Jewish religious leaders, who conducted the kangaroo court trial, passed sentence, and carried out the execution. So is the Passion story anti-Italian? No. Is it anti-Jewish? No. Is it pro-Christian? Yes.

It's a story of God's redemptive love and the death and resurrection of the man many people believe was the Messiah. Believe it, don't believe it, but don't use the story to attack people, whether Jewish or Christian.

If the film is anti-Semitic, that's a twisting of Scripture, and it should be condemned on theologic as well as political grounds. But we haven't seen it and have no business offering our opinions on this film one way or the other.

And BTW...I thought Then Last Temptation of Christ was a very powerful movie with a profoundly Christian message. I think anyone who calls himself or herself a Christian would do very well to see that movie. If this new movie has a powerful message to offer, I'd hate to see that get lost in the shuffle as well...but for now, we just don't know.

[Character Assassin]

17. Uh...yeah. That's what I was saying.

We're of the same mind on this one.

[HootieMcBoob]

18. Mel Gibson's company

I think I remember reading that Mel Gibson's company is putting up the money for or producing or distributing or doing something with Michael Moore and his upcoming documentary farenheit 911. Has anybody else heard this thing that I seem to sort of remember reading?