My God! Condi Rice looks about done!

[Solomon]

Stick a fork in her. She's done. Her face is breaking out in zits and she's wearing tons of make-up. Her speech is shaky and her eyes looks drugged. Whew!! Made me tired just seeing a sound clip.

She's looking like her neck is stretched over the chopping block, waiting for the axe to fall. This Richard Clarke thing has definitely shaken her.

Now I gotta go get the book.

[linazelle]

1. That's normal for the bauble-head...n/t

[Unknown Known]

2. Yes, her voice was shaking more than usual today.

She sounds like she's on the verge of cracking! Too bad!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA:evilgrin:

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

10. She reminds me a little of

Laura Petrie when she would go, "Oh Roooob!" except that Mary Tyler Moore was adorable and Rice is creepy and irresponsible.

[Michael Harrington]

201. And...

Same hair.

[orwell]

3. Impossible

It's impossible to keep up with the frenetic pace of lying.

Maybe she needs a 4 weeker in Crawford where she can get to work shoveling some real sh*t.

O

[Ganja Ninja]

4. At last a job she can handle.

[Solomon]

5. She's definitely taking it very personally. Yesterday she had a piece

in the editorial page of the Washington Post.

[seemslikeadream]

6. For Black America, The Thrill of Powell and Rice Is Gone

By Jonathan Tilove
Mar 20, 2004, 18:51


March 2004-Black America's long honeymoon with Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice may be nearing an end.

For the three years of the Bush presidency, Powell and, to a lesser degree, Rice have been enshrined in the pantheon of African-American heroes, modern-day Black History Month stalwarts right beside the likes of Frederick Douglass and Sojourner Truth......


"Are these two conspirators (Powell and Rice) fit to speak at any black gathering, ever again in life?" The Black Commentator, a popular African-American Web site, asked in a recent posting. "Who in the black community will debase their organizations with the presence of such `role models'?"

Unlike Powell, her swift and recent rise to national prominence came after a relatively cloistered career in the halls of academe, in corporate boardrooms and as confidante and adviser to both presidents Bush. If she was the first black woman to serve as national security adviser, she was also likely the first black woman to have an oil tanker named for her.

"Rice is perceived as very cold and distant and only black by accident," said Bill Fletcher, in a harsh but not atypical appraisal of Rice from the black left. Fletcher succeeded Robinson as president of TransAfrica Forum, the Washington-based organization that analyzes the influence of U.S. foreign policy on the black world.

http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_5747.shtml

[DarkPhenyx]

8. I always find it funny when...

...they start talking about how Condi and Collin aren't black enough, or the right knid of black. You may not agree with their politics but they are still far better role models for kids of all races than many other prominant American Blacks.

[seemslikeadream]

14. I sorry I have to disagree with you

Condi and Collin participating in Bushs' tactics to destroy Haiti, in my opinion, they do not qualify as role models for anyone especially Blacks

[DarkPhenyx]

16. Why?

They are both people who have risen, against the odds, to positions of power and influance. Condi in particular is in a very powerful and influential position and would make an excellent role model for what people, specifically women, can do if they try. We shouldn't let our dislike for her politics blind us to that fact.

Remember, it is only one view of reality that says the Bush admin is "destroying Haiti". Reality is probably closer to a continutaion of all American politicians using Haiti as a "football" in the battle for power and control.

[11 Bravo]

25. Hitler also rose, against the odds, to a position of power

and influence. He was an absolutely mesmerizing speaker, loved dogs, and fought, by most accounts, bravely in WWI. Is he also an excellent role model? If so, I'm afraid that I have allowed my dislike for his politics to blind me to that fact.

[DarkPhenyx]

60. Please note the post about...

...he who mentions Hitler first losing the debate.

Thank you.

[AtTheEndOfTheDay]

84. Weak retort.

Peanut gallery gives a no go.

[DarkPhenyx]

86. BS.

Unless you can come up with a better argument stop trying.

[kiahzero]

92. It's a valid proof by counterexample.

You postulated certain qualifications that make an individual a role model. The other poster cited a counterexample (Hitler) that exposed a flaw in your qualifications.

[DarkPhenyx]

97. It's invalid as it reduces the dicussion...

...to the level of the innane. Neitehr of the people in question is Hitler, or anywhere near being Hitler. To insinuate otherwise is disingenious.

Now, jsut for the record, yes...Hitlers accomplishments were pretty impressive. Now, take away the genocide thing, and he isn't too bad a role model either...particularly for his day and age when war was still a "nobel and just endevor".

[kiahzero]

99. That doesn't address the fact that it's a valid counterexample

Counterexamples often ARE "innane." That's really the point - you find an assignment that results in an absurdity, and hence demonstrate that the original expression is not valid.

Edit: Typo

[DarkPhenyx]

100. It dosen't address it becasue...

...it isn't valid. Counterpoints should be logical and based in something besides extremist rhetoric and hyperbole. This is why we have the statement that the first person to mention Hitler loses.

[kiahzero]

102. It is a logical counterexample

You fail to grasp that, because you are stuck on the emotional content, without noticing that it meets your conditions for being a role model. I can give you the formal proof, if you want.

The "statement" you refer to is Godwin's Law, a silly Usenet convention, and not a formal logical rule.

[DarkPhenyx]

104. *laughing loud*

No, you fail to recognize C&C as acceptable role models for exactly the same reasons. It is your emotional response to them which forced you to find the most abhorant counter example you could. It is, in truth, that which makes your argument against them useless.

[kiahzero]

106. No, it's not my "emotional response" that causes me to disqualify them

You postulated:

They are both people who have risen, against the odds, to positions of power and influence. Condi in particular is in a very powerful and influential position and would make an excellent role model for what people, specifically women, can do if they try.

Transforming this into a first-order logical expression, we have

For all x, RaO(x) -> RM(x)
where RaO(x) is defined as x "risen, against the odds, to positions of power and influence," and RM(x) is defined as x "mak<ing> an excellent role model."

To disprove this statement, one merely needs to demonstrate there exists an x, such that RaO(x) && !RM(x). The poster does so, with the example of Hitler.

Redefine your argument of what makes a role model, to make this counterexample no longer applicable, and demonstrate that Rice and Powell are role models under this new definition.

Edit: Fixed braces.

[DarkPhenyx]

107. And Hitler does offer many things worth looking at.

His charismatic use of crowd control. His ability to motivate an entire country behind his plans. Coming within two stupid decisions of achieving his plans.

[kiahzero]

108. So you're willing to say Hitler is a role model

That's fine, since it's logically consistent. But clearly, many people, including myself, will disagree with you. Just as we will disagree with you on Powell and Rice; operating under different definitions results in different results.

[DarkPhenyx]

110. After a fashion yes he is.

The only difference between my POV and yours is the emotional attachment you have for the argument.

Of course I wouldn't encourage any child I know to go out and conduct genocide. Definately not a trait I find acceptable in anyone.

You, of course, are going to tell me that the traits of grand orator and charismatic leader are not things we should encourage in our children.

<on edit>

Still. You decided to choose an extreme example to attempt to prove your point. Being forced to do so is a weak argument. It's far to easy to find extreme examples that either force people to conceed a point or make wild statements in return. Now, try something more in line with the reality of Collin and Condi and prehaps this discussion will actually go somewhere.

[kiahzero]

113. No, not at all

I see it as a whole package. Hitler had several positive traits, but the negative traits overshadowed them. Hence, he is no role model for me.

[DarkPhenyx]

117. Please see my edit.

OK...so a role model is only good if you want to be exactly like them then? We are now back to the point I made earlier that there are absolutely no good role models then. None. This would be becasue they are all human.

Now, don't know about you but I think children need role models.

[kiahzero]

120. No, the positives need to outweigh the negatives

Genocide is almost impossible to outweigh. I don't feel that the positives of Rice nor Powell (getting into power against odds) outweigh their actions now that they are in power.

[DarkPhenyx]

121. Why do they have to?

You mean to tell me that you can't look at someone and go "gee? I like that part, but I don't like that, so I'll do the things they do this way, but not these"? That's sad!

[kiahzero]

122. You can

I choose not to. For me, someone can't be a role model if they have major negatives that counteract their positives. Seems pretty obvious to me - if someone's a "major league asshole," for example, even if they happen to have a positive attribute, I'm not going to look up to them for it. I can give them respect for that positive attribute, but that doesn't make them a "role model."

To me, a "role model" is necessarily the whole person, since the term refers to the whole person.

[DarkPhenyx]

126. Darn. I can't be a role model then.

I'm a severe asshole. So was my Dad. He tells me it's genetic.

I would tell you then that you can never have a role model. Everyone has negatives. If you choose someone as a role model then you are playing situational ethics. Justifying your decison.

[kiahzero]

132. Clearly, you missed my point

If you have enough positive traits, you can in fact be a role model. Let's say that you cured cancer, donated the proceeds to science, which ended up being used curing HIV/AIDS (oh no, it's more hyperbole!)... you'd certainly be a role model, despite your assholishness. On a less grandiose scale, if you're an asshole, but happen to volunteer at a soup kitchen weekly, and do other small things for the community, I'd say that you're, overall, a good role model. I'd rather my kids turn out to be socially responsible assholes, then to be "nice" people who have no social responsibility whatsoever.

My position, the entire time, has been that, for me to determine if a person is a role model, I have to consider their entire being.

[DarkPhenyx]

133. Which is entirely biased by...

...your politics, religion, world view, adn the color of your underware on any given day. Thus was my point.

[kiahzero]

135. Isn't being a "role model" a value judgement?

You say that my determination of who is and is not a role model is biased, as if there is a way to establish "unbiased" role models. A "role model" is defined as: "A person who serves as a model in a particular behavioral or social role for another person to emulate."

Deciding whether or not you want your children to emulate a certain person is a value judgement. There are certain qualities you prefer, and others that you do not.

[DarkPhenyx]

138. Which is why I said they make good role models.

They aren't going to work for everyone, but you can't say they are bad role models. All you cna say is that they aren't good for you. Just like music, art, poetry, et. al. Whenever you apply a value judgement to a subject all you can say is I don't like it because....end of statement.

:)

Thus is the wisdom of Phenyx. So shall it be written, so shall it be done.

[kiahzero]

142. You can expand value judgments.

You can say, "I don't like Y because I hold X as important, and Y contradicts X because of ... <insert explanation>"

I, and the other poster, argue that no progressive should like Rice or Powell as role models, because we hold democracy as important, and Rice and Powell both worked to circumvent democracy. We hold no-elective-wars as an important principle, and Rice and Powell both went against this principle. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

[DarkPhenyx]

144. You are assuming that Democracy...

...is the end all be all of positive moral value judgements.

[kiahzero]

149. No, I'm not

I'm saying that progressives and liberals, the type of people that frequent this message board, should not see Powell or Rice as role models, because we hold democracy as an extremely important value.

[DarkPhenyx]

151. So there are no corrupt and dishonest democracies?

Your last statement verifies your opinon that Democracy is one of the the end all and be all value judgements.

[kiahzero]

152. Subverting democracy is generally a bad proposition

Tossing out lawfully elected leaders and replacing them with dictators may look like it's a good idea in the short term, but generally results in disaster (example: Iran. Another, Haiti (1991).)

I fail to see how stating that Powell and Rice's work to subvert democracy disqualifies them as role models makes democracy an "end all and be all value judgement."

[DarkPhenyx]

156. What if the Democracy is corrupt?

This is actually more the norm than not in the world today.

[kiahzero]

159. Still a bad idea

Dictatorships are almost invariably corrupt... replacing a democracy with a dictatorship, as I said previously, has a history of causing a large degree of problems. The current totalitarian government of Iran is a direct result of our interventions there. The current chaos in Haiti is a result of our intervention there.

Intervention should only be done when it is an improvement... otherwise, how can you morally justify it?

[DarkPhenyx]

162. OK, so...

you would say, then, that since Yasser Arafat is the elected leader of the Palis that he should not be overthrown. I think Saddam Hussain was elected too, sort of.

Moral justification covers a great many sins. Christians can use it to justify burning my people at the stake, and keeping homosexuals as second class citizens.

[kiahzero]

164. The election in Iraq was rigged

Not sure about the election of Yassar Arafat, but yes, if he was elected in a free and fair election, then he should not be overthrown.

Moral justification covers a great many sins. Christians can use it to justify burning my people at the stake, and keeping homosexuals as second class citizens.

How do we justify our actions, if not with morals and ethics?

[DarkPhenyx]

171. and there in lies the twix, no?

:)

we just need to realize that we are doing exactly that. Justifying our actions and using out "morality" to do it. Our morality may not mesh with someone elses.

It's possible, just maybe, that we should do a little less justifying, and judgeing, and instead do a little more just living right. Jsut a thought.

[kiahzero]

175. "Living right" requires deciding what is right.

Other than that, I agree with you.

[DarkPhenyx]

178. thus you are stuck in the trap of using your morality,...

...to judge other people who may not share your morality and thus will judge you by the morality they hold.

Who are we to say they are wrong and we are right? Assuming there are absolutes in morality of course.

[kiahzero]

182. I see your point

I am obviously not a role model for conservatives. I live my life by liberal principles.

For deciding who is a role model, the discussion of absolute morals is a non sequitur. Each person has a set of role models, that qualify under the morals and values of the person. My point has always been that Powell and Rice shouldn't qualify for people who hold generally progressive/liberal values.

[DarkPhenyx]

185. Which does not preclude them...

...from being very good role models for people a bit less pregressive than the DU average.

[kiahzero]

188. Right...

Perhaps I'm reading this too adversarily, but I don't see how this contradicts my point.

[DarkPhenyx]

190. It dosen't.

Nor does it contradict mine that C&C could make pretty good romle models. It only took this list, waht, 8 hours to get to that point?

[TankLV]

161. At least you confirmed my opinion of you.

Thanx.

NOT a role model. Glad you admit it. It's the first step toward recovery.

[DarkPhenyx]

183. Nice thing though.

Your opinon of me means exactly squat. :) There is nothing for me to recover from. I am who and what I am and I am happy with that. Nothing you say about it changes that. It really does mean nothing more than a soft breeze in the room you sit.

[U4ikLefty]

197. LOL

Good one!!!

[DarkPhenyx]

207. Oh please.

Not even close to the mark. Was barely worth reading let alone replying to.

[Gore1FL]

202. role models with qualifications....

OK So Condi and Coin are good role models, if you take away the lying and their blind support of an administration that is arguably guilty of war crimes, treason, misleading the American people, war -profiteering etc. and they aren't too bad of role models.

[DarkPhenyx]

208. Name a role model that dosen't come with...

...qualifiers. Just one. I'll wait.

[Spentastic]

212. Jesus

[DarkPhenyx]

216. I was thinking of someone real.

However, since you bring him up, Jesus has a serious religious intolerance and mysoginy problem. This is based upon the assumption that he feels that the rules for living, as laid out by the bible, are the only way to live.

[CaptainClark23]

30. Gotta disagree.

Political and financial success does not a role model make.

People who distort the truth, and who take leadership roles in corporations that profit at the expense of those who are not of the elite classes are NOT role models. They should be seen as pariahs, and examples of how one can go wrong in one's search for material success.

Persons in the community who have strong personal values and integrity ought to be the role models for youth.

[DarkPhenyx]

62. Why aren't they role models?

They are at least as good a role model as those who play childrens games and get paid entirely too much for it, or do high school theatre for a living.

[Timefortruth]

93. Um, those who play children's games and get paid entirely too much

for us do no harm.

I will never look at my children and aspire for them that they become so powerful that they can lead others to war needlessly. It would be horrific to me if my children participated in actions which cause untold harm to millions. Honesty and decency should be an integral part of a role model, not the naked assumption of position.

It is a sad statement that power absent morality has become something we should hope for our children, regardless of their race.

[DarkPhenyx]

103. When they have drug problems...

...use steroids, beat their spouses/GF's...nope, no harm there.

Also encouraging children away from study into subjects where they have a better chance of success. No, no harm there either.

But I digress.

I do encourage the children in my life to become exactly that powerful. In the same lessons I teach them the wisdom to know how to properly use that power if they ever have to fortune to wield it.

Again, if you want honesty and decency in role models you are going to have precious few to choose from. Not even Mother Theresa is w/o her flaws. Ghandi is not beyond reproach. Washington? Patton? The Marx Brothers?

[Timefortruth]

136. You have difficulties staying on point.

Selecting my children's role models from individuals who are not corrupt to the core is not a challenge. You use a ridiculous extreme that is meaningless. But since your argument has no merit you have no alternative but to change the subject.

[DarkPhenyx]

139. My argument has great merit.

C&C are not corrupt to the core. Thankfully very few are.

So, now that we have that covered do you have a point to make?

[Timefortruth]

165. "C&C are not corrupt to the core. Thankfully very few are"

Well you are half right. Very few are.

Do you have a point?

[DarkPhenyx]

174. Yes...

...that they are not corrupt to the core.

[Timefortruth]

181. I truly wish I lived in your lala land.

And could ignore all the evidence.

Sadly, I live in this world. If there were a single example of their truthfulness on a major issue I would waiver, but there is none.

[DarkPhenyx]

184. Evidence about what?

Who lives in La-La land?

I fully accept that C&C have lied, continue to lie, and will probably lie fpor some time to come. This does not change the fact taht they have both achieved a gret deal in their lives and on that merit alone make pretty decent role models.

[Timefortruth]

191. Again, and for the last time

they are good role models for children who aspire to achieve power in a moral vacuum. My opinion is that role models shouldn't set an example of evil and deception. I guess I'm sort of old fashioned that way.

Good night.

[DarkPhenyx]

192. Life is a moral vacume!

All of it is relative to your world view and your belief in right and wrong. Simply by making that statement you are making a value judgement which renders it to the level of opinion.

[seemslikeadream]

52. I know a bit about Haiti

and these people know alot more and I have been following their thoughts religiously.



Appearing at a news conference on Capitol Hill Friday, Feb. 27, 2004, left to right, Sen. Christopher Dodd, D-Conn., Sen. Bob Graham, D-Fla., and Sen. Tom Harkin, D-Iowa, call for deployment in the 48 hours of a security force to 'minimize the loss of life and property desctruction' in Haiti. (AP Photo/Dennis Cook)





Rep. Elijah Cummins, D-Md., speaks with members of the Congressional Black Caucus outside the White House after meeting with President Bush, National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice and Secretary of State Colin Powell Wednesday, Feb.25, 2004. With him, left to right, are Reps. Maxine Waters, D-Calif., Donald Payne, D-N.J., John Conyers, D-Mich., and Charles Rangel, D-N.Y. In a highly unusual move, the group demanded a meeting with Bush to express their concerns that the U.S. act to preserve the democracy in Haiti. (AP Photo/Gerald Herbert)



Congressional Black CaucusPresident Rep. Elijah Cummings, D-Md., center, gestures during a news conference on Wednesday, Feb. 25, 2004 in Washington. About 30 members of the caucus demanded to meet with the White House about the ongoing situation in Haiti. In the front row from left are Rep. John Conyers, D-Mich., Cummings, Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee, D-Tex., and Rep. Charles Rangel, D-NY. (AP Photo/Evan Vucci)

Because bush refused to sent the money to Haiti for the last 3 years that was promised, Haiti has become a nightmare and a coup has taken place with the help of Condi and Collin.

These guys are in charge now


e departure of President Jean-Bertrand Aristide from Haiti on Sunday, Feb. 29, 2004, leaves a power vacuum in Haiti. Players in recent political events are shown from left, Andy Apaid Jr., Boniface Alexandre, Louis-Jodel Chamblain, Evans Paul, Guy Philippe and Butteur Metayer. (AP Photos/Files)

And this is what is happening


The bodies of three young Haitian men lie on the floor of a private morgue in the LaSaline district of Port-au-Prince, Haiti, Sunday March 21, 2004. Residents say five young men were taken away by Haitian police last night and their bound and hooded bodies found dead this morning with gunshot wounds to the head. (AP Photo/Ryan Remiorz, CP)


The hands of a young Haitian man remain bound behind his back in a private morgue in the LaSaline district of Port-au-Prince, Haiti, Sunday March 21, 2004. Residents say five young men were taken away by Haitian police last night and their bound and hooded bodies found dead this morning with gunshot wounds to the head. (AP Photo/Ryan Remiorz, CP)


A little girl walks through the ruing of some small businesses and depots at the entrance to Cap-Haitien, Haiti, which went up in flames late on Tuesday night, the same night that pro-government militants were setting up barricades and burning the homes and businesses of several people they perceived as opponents of President Jean-Bertrand Aristide, on February 13, 2004. (Reuters Photo/Daniel Morel)

[DarkPhenyx]

63. Yup!

And you had a point?

[Skittles]

112. they have "risen" by playing the role of republican whores

and now they are putting their party above their country. There is no honor whatsoever with these two and to call them role models is insulting.

[DarkPhenyx]

118. As opposed to people often glorified by the Left...

...who are Democratic whores?

Tut, tut. Careful which people you choose as our role models. None of them are going to be beyond reproach.

[thingfish]

157. Care to name some folks you think are Black Democratic Whores?

?

[DarkPhenyx]

160. Jessie Jackson for starters.

Al Sharpton.

[goclark]

203. Jackson and Sharpton Are Loved In The Black Community

They are articulate, come to the aid of those in need.
Yes, they are preachers and know how to be creative in their leadership skills. Our community likes that-we like it when our leaders do things to show that they are not afraid of Whites,we like them to be cool and smooth. Remember Adam Clayton Powell?

If you ever want to know how loved they are in the Black Community, go to see one of them when they are speaking to an All Black audience. They relate,they speak the same language,they feel the pain of their fellow African Americans.

Try having Condi or Colin in an audience of African Americans, unless it is a Photo Op you will not find the connection. They have been around Whites so long they think they are White. Rev. Jackson and Rev. Al have walked with Whites and talked with Whites,but they have not forgotten where they came from.


Black people that I know don't think of them as whores.
We think of them as "with us through good times and bad times."

Now Colin and Condi and Clarence (CCC) are another whole story.
They are what ever you want to call them.
They are not true to their people. They are war mongers and have forgotten their roots.I'm sure you can find a few Repub African Americans that like them but you can count them on your fingers and toes.

[DarkPhenyx]

206. They are not Universally loved.

There are some in the black community that really wish they'd jsut shut up and go away.

What is "true to their people" anyway? Are we back to that "they aren't black enough" bullshit I was talking aobut earlier?

[goclark]

211. I didn't say universally loved..

those are your words,not mine.

Even Jesus was and is not loved universally. Mother Teresa and MLK were not and still are not universally loved.

[DarkPhenyx]

217. You said...

..."Jackson and Sharpton are loved by the Black Community". Sorry they are not universally loved by the black community.

[rustydog]

55. Exactly. No person, white, black or checkered should be considered

a good role model if they lie to the people they are sworn to protect.
No one can be considered a role model when they not only support, but helped plan the illegal invasion of a soverign nation then engaged in the cover-up of that illegal act.
All of the Administration deserve jail time.They are not role models.

[DarkPhenyx]

70. Then Clinton isn't a good role model.

Nor are a great many people that you'd probably mention as good role models.

[Sandpiper]

15. Couldn't disagree more

Rice and Powell are shills for one of the most dishonest and corrupt administrations in history. They carry Bush's water for him and repeat his lies to the country and the world.

They are bad people, irrespective of race and should not be held up as role models for anyone's children.

[DarkPhenyx]

20. Again...

...you are letting your dislike for their politics blind you to the acheivements they have made, the positions they have held, and the goals they have attained.

[Sandpiper]

22. Not possible to separate the one from the other

Adolf Hitler's personal achievments were very impressive. He came from poverty, became the elected leader of Germany, took the country from the shambles of post WWI, and turned it into the world's leading economic and military power.

I don't think I need to mention the other things he did, other than to say the fact that he did them makes him someone not to be admired.


In the same vein, Rice and Powell have too much blood on their hands to be objects of admiration.

[DarkPhenyx]

23. Of course it is possible to seperate the two.

You are being intentionally obstructionist here. Have you never heard that in a debate the first one to mention Hitler loses?

[belle]

26. It's Godwin's Law, and you're still wrong.

Personally, i wouldn't want Lieberman held up as a role model for me, esp. by a bunch of goyim.

[DarkPhenyx]

56. So don't use him.

It's your perogitive.

And I'm not your. You are allowing your bias and politics to get in the way of common sense. Not an unusual affliction. Particulalry among those who are unable to admit their side might be wrong and the opposition might actually be able to do something right.

[Sandpiper]

68. That's rich

You are allowing your bias and politics to get in the way of common sense.

What you're saying more or less is that because Powell and Rice are black and successful, they ought to be admired and be role models.
Notwithstanding what they stand for: lies, deceit, warmongering.

Yes, you certainly have the moral high ground here.
:eyes:

[DarkPhenyx]

71. Yup that is, more or less, what I'm saying.

As to my moral ground it does tend to be higher than many who post here. Considering what I know about myself I take that as a sad comment on the general state of affairs in the US.

[Sandpiper]

29. Their actions speak more to their character

Than the positions they've attained

And that is the criteria by which I judge Powell, Rice, or anyone else.

[DarkPhenyx]

58. So what?

Still dosen't mean they can't be a role model.

[Sandpiper]

61. Perhaps you and I have different definitions of what a role model is

n/t

[DarkPhenyx]

64. Let's see...

...someone who shows you that there is something better that you can achieve. Someone much like yourself who "made it" to a better place than you are now.

[Sandpiper]

72. Merriam Webster says

role model

Function: noun

: a person whose behavior in a particular role is imitated by others

Boy I hope not

[DarkPhenyx]

75. And it still comes down to...

...you don't agree with their politics. That's all it comes down to. You don't think that a young person should look at Collin or Condi and say "hey, maybe I can be SecState too? Gee, maybe I'll make it all the way to President!" You see no value in that at all? Wow. Interesting.

[Sandpiper]

80. And it still comes down to

You excusing their deficient character. Nope, I see no value at all in black children growing up to be liars, deceivers, and warmongers. Nope, I see no value in it.

you don't agree with their politics.

Shucks! You got me! What clued you in? The fact this is a political message board called Democratic Underground?

[DarkPhenyx]

88. If you choose to take that route....

...your logic prevents every adult on the planet from serving as a role model. Sad but true. All your snippy comments aside that is what you are saying. Unless someone is an absolute paragon of virtue they can't be a role model.

[fishwax]

150. no more so than

your logic allows everyone to be a role model. Because your definition of role model appears to be anyone who has a character trait worth emulating or an achievement worth duplicating, no matter what kind of baggage comes with that achievement. But since, just as everyone has negative traits, most people have positive traits as well. So you claim your opponent's definition won't include anyone, and yet your definition seems to include everyone, including, presumably, the "many other prominant American Blacks" that you dismiss way back in post #6.

That said, I never saw any poster who said that one had to be a paragon of virtue to be a role model, nor is that statement a logical extension of any of the arguments I've seen. They have simply said that, to be a role model, the good should outweigh the bad in the whole package. Gandhi and Mother Theresa may have the negatives that you allude to in post 103, but that doesn't mean the negatives outweigh their contributions to the global community.

[DarkPhenyx]

154. Everyone can be a role model.

Particularly if you include negative role model into the equation. However that isn't the jist of this discussion.

Now, removing that option simply for clarity I will say that yes everyone can still be a role model. By the pure and simple definition of that phrase. We don't always agree woith who people choose for their RM's. This is why, as discussed elsewhere, it is a value judgement.

Now, eliminating that part of the equation for clarity, so we don't have people choosing Jeffrey Dhalmer as a role model, we still end up with C&C as acceptable role models for a group of people. They are strong black representatives, much like Malcom X and Martin Luther King Jr. They simply have different politics.

[fishwax]

170. But Jesse Jackson isn't an acceptable role model?

Because of his politics, or what?

[DarkPhenyx]

172. I would not choose him as an acceptable role model...

...because of his hypocrasy.

However you said who did I think was a Democratic Whore...not who I thought was a bad role model.

[fishwax]

177. Hypocrisy sounds an awful lot like a value judgment

And I thought you wanted to keep value judgments out of it. Giving lip service to democracy while laboring to support anti-democratic movements throughout the globe, as has been argued re: C&C elsewhere on this thread would also make one a hypocrite, but you bristled at the suggestion that any of their behavior should disqualify them.

Do you think that C&C are free from hypocrisy? Do you see Jesse Jackson's "hypocrisy" as more destructive?

[DarkPhenyx]

179. Not really.

His hypocrasy is verifiable.

However, even if it is a value judgement, you'll notice I didn't say he was a bad role model. Only that I wouldn't choose him as one.

Also, the question was ID people I thought were "B;ack Democratic Whores". I did that.

[Sandpiper]

195. From leading a little further

I see you've said Jesse Jackson is a bad role model for black children because of hypocrisy.

On the other hand, Condi and Colin are good role model's for black children because they're successful (their mendacity not withstanding).

Not withstanding all your self righteousness, you seem to be practicing something of a double standard here.

What's especially curious about all of this is your willingness to cast a blind eye toward the bad behavior of the black faces of the neoconservative movement.

I know of another website that might interest you. Rice and Powell are dearly loved there, and Jesse Jackson despised.

http://freerepublic.com

[Sandpiper]

205. Reading dammit, not leading

:dunce:

[DarkPhenyx]

209. No, I said they were RM's I would not choose.

Never said they were bad ones.

Also, in the original post I mentioned them if ya'll would please learn to read, I mentioned them in reference to "name a Black Whore for the Democratic Party." Sheesh! Is it so hard to actually read first?

[Skittles]

114. selling out your own country is nothing to "achieve"

Condi and Colin are sickening.

[DarkPhenyx]

119. People on the right would say...

...would say the very same thing about many people we hold in high regard. This is why you really should put your politics and emotions aside for the discussion.

[Skittles]

125. PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

they supported - STILL SUPPORT - a regime that is KILLING PEOPLE EVERY DAY. THEY ARE LYING SCUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DarkPhenyx]

129. Skittles you know as well as I...

...that there have been times where situaltional ethics caused Democrats to support less than ethical people in the pursuit of their goals.

[Skittles]

140. YES I KNOW THAT

BUT I WOULD NOT CALL THOSE DEM WHORES ROLE MODELS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DarkPhenyx]

143. But some people would.

It's a judgement call.

Some people close to me think I make a pretty good role mmodel. I think they are on crack. :shrug:

[Skittles]

214. I could call them fire hydrants but that doesn't make them fire hydrants

yes, I supposed if you aspire to be lying scum who will sell out your own country, C and C could be considered "role models". :puke:

[Timefortruth]

95. Yes they can be a role model.

Children can aspire to lie,kill and do whatever is necessary to stay in power. They could be role models for the Future Sociopaths of America. Success without conscience.

My idea of a role model is a little more positive than that, I thought role models should show moral character. But if role models are only to show children that success is the most important thing and it is perfectly fine to live in a moral vacuum, then you make a very good point. Condi and Powell fit that bill.

[DarkPhenyx]

98. They can also aspire to be...

...Secretary of State or President. The rest of your argument isn't very conviencing. It is also your opinion and POV. Other people will differ on it.

[Timefortruth]

130. It unconvincing to you because you you don't care about morality.

If you cared about right and wrong you might view what a role model is differently.

What I hope for my children, and all children for that matter, is that they can find successful adults to modle who achieved with integrity.

Your standard is that achievement alone is the standard for our children, and that is just what has taken us to where we are.

[DarkPhenyx]

134. OK, bottom line time.

Life isn't black and white. There are precious and vanishingly few rights and wrongs.

Morality is relative.

[Timefortruth]

146. Well, in my morally relativist world killing people, starting needless

wars, destroying the environment etc. are wrong. If my children grow to believe that power supersedes conscience I will have failed as a parent.

Now, your view that if children achieve a prestigious position they are successful, no matter the immorality of that success, is a wildly different world view. It is also the view that has put the country in the sorry position it is in today.

[DarkPhenyx]

148. Please point out where I said...

..."no matter their morality" please.

I usually argue quite loudly, and unpopularly, on this board for more morality not less. I usually get called bad names because of it too.

[Timefortruth]

153. "no matter their morality" is implicit in your message that

Powell and Condi should be role models. Either you think these people are truthful, which is nonsense, or you accept that their deception acceptable. Since you think the are role models and they are horrible moral examples it follows that you are disinterested in the morality of who you think should be role models.

[DarkPhenyx]

158. And they should.

As examples that you can achieve more in this world than what many born into poverty consider to be their lot in life. They could d far worse fir rile models, don't you think?

[Timefortruth]

169. If few are born to bring death an misery to millions and

the achievement of that fate is considered an achievement, you are right. Me, I think that a positive achievment is an aspireation, death and distruction just don't cut it.

[DarkPhenyx]

173. Which would be a value judgement.

Thus we reach that point of the discussion yet again.

[Timefortruth]

176. Precisely!

My view is that misery to millions for personal success is an improper value. Call me a relativist, if the shoe fits and all that. Your shade of gray that spreads into terrorism, suffering and isolationism isn't at all gray to me. I guess we all have to draw the line somewhere.

[DarkPhenyx]

180. Even if, in the long term, that misery

leads to a greater good for everyone?

[Timefortruth]

187. An impossibility.

You don't understand what has happened. They know that the world instability is permanent, the environmental loss is devastating and so on... These are smart people who have put their own needs for power before the survival of everyone else on earth.

[DarkPhenyx]

189. Theoretically.

Work with me here. Unless you are a better prophet than I we're both talking theoreticals here.

[Timefortruth]

193. Nonsense

I'm an historian, prophecy is unnecessary.

Good night.

[DarkPhenyx]

194. If you are a historian...

...then you know better.

'Night.

[Sandpiper]

83. Why is that?

Because it kicks the legs out from under your reasoning?

[TankLV]

35. ...on the backs of all the people they have killed, over the dead bodies

of all the innocent children and women they have screwed...

yada yada yada.

Yeah, great role model.

Just like Goebbles & Himmler.

[DarkPhenyx]

59. Yup.

Love Goebbels and Himmler too. I'm hop[ing my children grow up to be a great deal like them.

[TankLV]

166. Well, I hope other's children don't let your children "succeed".

I will work and pray for their failure, that you can count on.

You really are amazing - in an awfully negative way.

[DarkPhenyx]

186. And may the God and Goddess...

...bring back thrice upon your house that which you wish upon mine.

Sharp as a knife my friend. Sharp as a knife.

[BillZBubb]

48. Bullshit! It isn't politics

It's the fact that both are corrupt liars. They are role models for no one but would be fascists. Their positions, goals, and "achievements" are, for the most part, highly tainted.

[DarkPhenyx]

65. They are politicians.

No matter if you are liberal or conservative you are probably a corrupt liar. The odds just swong it that way.

They are good role models. Particularly for young black men and women.

Once again you are allowingf your polotical bias to blind you to this. Too bad really. the neo-Cons have the same problem.

[Sandpiper]

76. That's funny

Too bad really. the neo-Cons have the same problem.

So says the person going to the mat for a pair of neocons.

[DarkPhenyx]

79. I go to the mat for anyone...

...who is in need of it. See, that's where I am different than most. It's called integrity. You have that when you stick by your principles even when it isn't in your best interest, or it requires you to defend those whom you may not like personally because it is the right thing to do.

[Sandpiper]

81. Thanks for the sanctimony

n/t

[DarkPhenyx]

87. Yer welcome.

Always happy to help in any way I can. :)

[Bake]

127. You're talking about INTEGRITY to defend LIARS!

There is some blatant "that-does-not-compute" here. Obviously, you were just in the mood for a flame fest. You have no interest in genuine discourse.

The better example would be to take someone with whom we disagree politically, but who has risen from humble beginnings to great heights while maintaining his/her own integrity. Politics aside, I would personally admire such a person and gladly grant you that person should be a role model.

Unfortunately, I can't think of any.

Bake

[DarkPhenyx]

145. I'm never in the mood for a flame fest.

Genuine discourse is always good.
I am honestly defending the two individuals in question as potential role models for young Americans.

[TankLV]

167. Wow! You have an awfully undeserved high opinion of yourself.

You have integrity.

Ha! That's a good one.

Thanks for the laugh - we needed it!

[seemslikeadream]

53. This is Condi and Collin politics

Supporters of ousted President Jean-Bertrand Aristide march in the Bel-Air district of Port-au-Prince, Haiti on Thursday March 11, 2004. (AP Photo/Dario Lopez-Mills





People gather a gas station to fill their plastic containers in downtown Les Cayes, 100 miles southwest of the capital Port-au-Prince, Haiti, Thursday March 4, 2004. The owners of the station refused to sell too much gas from fear of getting rob since banks are not open for depositis. (AP Photo/Pablo Aneli).



US Marines position light armored vehicles on the front lawn of the Presidential palace in Port-Au-Prince. France, the US, and Canada have sent troops to Haiti in an effort to stabilize the country(AFP/Roberto Schmidt)



A Haitian man hauls a handcart through a trash strewn street near the port in downtown Port-Au-Prince. Canada sent three military planes to Haiti to repatriate its citizens wanting to leave(AFP/Yuri Cortez)



Locals watch as rebels patrol the streets in downtown Cap-Haitien, Haiti's second-largest city in the north, Thursday Feb. 26, 2004. (AP Photo/Pablo Aneli).

[DarkPhenyx]

74. And we can go and pull out similar issues...

...with the folks we speak so highly about here so often.

Dsoen't change the fact that both people are successful individuals that can provide a very strong role model for young Americans. Are there other people that fit that bill too? Yes. Are some of them more palitable for your tender tastes? Of course. Do your choices work for every person? Oh, please...don't be daft.

[Bake]

21. Aw, they're GREAT role models

for everybody, if what you want to model is lying, cheating, thieving, lying, do-anything-say-anything-to-stay-in-power, whoring, did I mention LYING?, toadying, etc.

Sure, they're just DANDY for that.

Bake

[DarkPhenyx]

24. How about role models for...

...despite accidents of birth you can rise and achieve your full potential? That you have more to look forward to in life than trying to play sports or selling crack on the street?

[chimpymustgo]

28. Sell your soul to the Devil. Go to the head of the class.

Role model my ass. Object lesson in what happens when you sell your soul.

[DarkPhenyx]

66. Rhetoric and BS

please try again.

[Bake]

124. Rhetoric my big red ass!

"Condi" and "Colon" are pure fucking liars. What can possibly be good about that, that would be a positive role model???

You might as well point to a drug dealer driving a big ol' Mercedes and use that as a role model. They're all three doing WRONG, and all three are BREAKING THE LAW, dammit, and that's not the kind of role model any of US would want for our children. "Now son/daughter, if you tell big enough lies and sell out everything we've taught you about right and wrong, and community, and caring about other people, you can grow up to have a fancy title like National Security Advisor, and maybe have an oil tanker named after you."

I'm sorry, Phenyx, but you're just WRONG. And that's not rhetoric. Getting to the top by lying and cheating is wrong, whether it's done by any man or woman, regardless of the color of their skin.

Bake

[DarkPhenyx]

141. Nope. It's rhetoric.

Sorry. If for no other reason than the obvious emotional content of your post it has to be rhetoric.

[U4ikLefty]

199. I'm glad you didn't disagree they are liars

They are role models like Mike Tyson is a role model.

[DarkPhenyx]

210. At least they are intelligent...

...well educated, articulate....

You aren't honestly saying they are on the same level as Mike Tyson are you? Not even you would be that insane and irrational.

[11 Bravo]

33. And that accident of birth was ...

being born black? Holy shit!! And for your personal edification, you also are apparently unaware that there are millions of black men and women who are neither drug dealers nor professional athletes.

[Carolina]

38. Thank you, 2d2

couldn't have said it better myself.

And for the poster who thinks that drugs and playing ball are all we do, I might add. Most drug dealers at the street level have never left their neighborhoods. But WHO owns the boats and planes that bring cocaine into the country and into Black neighborhoods. Hmmm .........

And who owns the media industry that feeds sports and celebrity trash, like bread and circuses, to the people?

[DarkPhenyx]

69. Except they didn't say anything. n/t

[DarkPhenyx]

67. Wow!

Someone overreacted there. Congrats! Nicely done.

[Alenne]

82. So why don't you clarify

because that is the same thing I thought when I read it.

[DarkPhenyx]

85. No, that's what you wanted to read.

Yes, of course millions of blacks in america aren't crack dealrrs or sport stars. There are also millions of children who never see that. If only for those children, my political beliefs aside, I thihk it is a very good thing to have faces that look like theirs, or even faces that don't (which teaches a very different lesson), on the nightly news.

Let's be honest people. THe ones that need role models don't get a hang about the politics of this issue. They care that there are two strong black people on TV every night who aren't wearing hand-cuffs, in some sort of legal trouble, or whatever.

[Alenne]

94. I can only go by what you write

Thanks for the clarifiaction.

[DarkPhenyx]

96. NP.

It's always good to get clarification. Do it every day at work, and then write it down to be used as evidence later when they tell me that isn't what they said. They do that a lot less than they used to.

[Bake]

128. Well, your chosen role-models may well end up in handcuffs ...

... before this is all over with. So, will they still be great role models then? Just because their face is all over the nightly news is not necessarily a good thing.

Bake

[DarkPhenyx]

147. Oh, they aren't my role models.

I'm a bit partial to Lenny Bruce. He ended up in cuffs too though.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

51. What is the difference between them and ordinary criminals

except that they get better houses and "dress-for-success" clothes?

What is the essential moral and ethical difference between a gang leader who orders a rival and his family killed and a political figure who shares responsibility for the needless deaths of thousands?

Callous is callous, no matter what the perpetrator's social status is.

[TankLV]

168. It's more like: "You can lie, cheat, steal, be lazy, blame others for

your mistakes and take other's achievments for your own credit to "succeed".

Just like Al Capone and Delay.

Full potential as thugs and criminals.

[SmokeyBlues]

36. Not fair!

You're allowing your dislike of their politics to overshadow their rags-to-riches achievements. Oh, and I would like to add Bush ass-licking to their list of admirable accomplishments.

[lolly]

41. What rags?

Didn't Condi, at least, grow in in a middle-class environment? What the heck did she overcome? Why assume that if she's black, she must've overcome crushing poverty, life in the ghetto, whatever?

Powell's family were Jamaican immigrants, I believe? I don't think he grew up in a gang-infested "hood" either.

[SmokeyBlues]

47. Um, can we row that boat back to shore?

To clear up any confusion, I grew up the same way Condi and Colin did. We all come from a Black-middle to upper-middle class background. As for my saying they went from rags-to-riches, I was only using an expression to acknowledge that they might have overcome certain societal obstacles to attain the positions they hold today.

Now, do I have respect for them and think they should be elevated to the status of 'Black role models' just because they hold two high level government positions, absolutely not! In my opinion, they both are still lying, oil-whoring, war-mongering POS that should be shackled with the rest of the cabal and marched directly to the Hague!

And I don't mean Alexander's house! B-)

[DarkPhenyx]

77. Foolish silly statements do not...

...substitute for good debate.

[AtTheEndOfTheDay]

89. Then you should cease and desist such immediately.

[DarkPhenyx]

90. *laughing loudly*

Oh joy! *clap, clap* You actually had to resote to the "rubber and glue" form of arguing. Next you'll be telling me "well, yeah? so's your Mom."

[SmokeyBlues]

116. Amazing...

You took the words right out of my mouth. You're dismissed now.

[buff2]

163. I wouldn't want Colon and Condi as a

role model for MY kids. I don't think lying to the American people about something as serious as a war,and lying about everything else qualifies them as role models. :thumbsdown:

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

213. Yeah, what a great role model.

They make money out of the misery of others for a living. Assholes come from every race and ethnicity, period.

[Carolina]

32. African- American heroes, my ass

Me and "my homeys" loathe them both and have since they signed on with Bush Boy. That the Extreme Court would distort the 14th amendment for Bush and that these two oreos would join forces with such a regime said and continues to say it all. They are liars, warmongers and thieves. They are not role models.

My grandfather always used the phase "be conscious of kind" and warned us kids about the associations we might make e.g. associate with thugs, you will be perceived as one and may become indeed become one. That says it all about Colin and Condi... both sorry sacks of shit. They made their beds, they CHOSE to work for Bush so they deserve shame, blame, scorn and derision.

[DarkPhenyx]

78. That's your choice.

Other's may choose to look up to them and I hope they gain enough inspiration to do something with themselves.

I nvere said they had to be your role models did I?

[goclark]

198. Thrills Been Gone

The thrill for Colin was over for most Black Americans as soon as he connected with GWBush. His best moment was during the Gulf War when we were asleep and didn't see him for what he was.


There is also no love lost in the African American community for Rice.

Are we disappointed that
two who could have been our
brightest stars have dimmed. Yes!

One of these days I am going to write an Open Letter To Both Of Them.
I'll post it on DU.

[FlemingsGhost]

7. Condi will fall.

In the end, the good 'ole boys won't go too far out of their way to protect a black woman. Most are scrambling to cover their own asses, at this point. (Or is that "assets?")

Bye-bye, Condi.

[tigereye]

9. it is very frustrating

to see someone of her obvious intelligence on the wrong side... I want very much to admire her as an African- American woman who has attained this level of power. But it is the wrong kind of power - she comes off as a factotum of the right, primarily - and does all of us a disservice.

[historian]

13. I beg to differ

She might have an education and she has seriously misjudged everything so far - from Russia (her supposed field of expertise) to Venezuala and of course Iraq

[Solomon]

27. Maybe she and Colin thought they could change things from the

inside. I know Colin was always giving this as a reason to be republican.

I gave Colin every benefit of the doubt. I argued for him; said that he was really sabotaging Bush's war effort from inside. He made Bush take it to the UN, I thought, knowing full well that it would not support an invasion. I was in his corner.

The last straw for me was his UN presentation in support of the war. I sat home and watched it, and I was awestruck by it's sheer ridiculousness, and I remember thinking, that if I were someone from another country, I would be insulted. Is that what we think of the rest of the world? That they are THAT stupid?

My wife said it best, "after all, in the end, Colin's a soldier."

As to Condi; she always shakes her head "no" when she talks, so naturally, I can 't believe a word she's saying. Never did give her any credibility.

I think right about now, Condi is suffering from the realization that she is just window dressing for this crew. Someone they picked out years ago as the perfect manikin. Right about now she's feeling foolish for really thinking that she was in charge of National Security. Ha ha! What a joke.

[UNCWDem]

39. I can't believe Rice has lasted this long, she has failed to protect the

U.S. from attacks from outside invaders. It seems like her methodical approach and lack of knowledge of the world which is changing has not jelled. Her expertise is Russia. The Cold War is over, we have new threats. She was not able to adapt to the new enemy we face. Please resign.

[SmokeyBlues]

50. Colin fooled me too

Sadly, I think he fooled a lot of people --particularly in many developing countries-- who had hoped as Secretary of State he would be able to bring more empathy to their concerns as an African American, as another man of color. But in the eternal word(s) of Steve Martin: Nah!!!!!!!

Harry Belafonte was right on the money when he not once, but twice, called Colin exactly what he is. No apologies. No regrets.

[TankLV]

37. Those terrible racist Democrats, beating up a black "rolemodel"

just because we hate black people!

Wowza!

[Jack_Dawson]

54. I missed it - can anyone re-cap?

Where was her voice shaking? Where was she looking "done"?

[PaDUer]

91. Not soon enough! n/t

[Manix]

11. Four years of lying for the weasel will do it to you.

[qb]

12. She knows one day she'll be in front of Congress

to answer the question, "What happened to the terrorism report the previous administration left on your desk, Ms. Rice?"

[H2O Man]

17. She must realize that:

"There has never been a system yet that would not gladly sacrifice one of its own for a moment's peace, no matter how brief." from We Talk, You Listen, by Vine Deloria, Jr., page 66. She sold her soul to the devil. Now she has to pay her dues.

[Gato Moteado]

18. when condi finally succombs....

....will she roll over on the bush cabal? and, if she does expose these corrupt bastards, will the right wing sit up and take note then?

[alarcojon]

46. Nah..

They'll just trot out the "discredit _______" crew they've sicked on Plame, O'Neill, and most recently Clarke.

[VolcanoJen]

19. Rumsfeld FIRST. Then Condi.

Too bad these ladies couldn't have copyrighted the "You're Fired" phrase before Trump did...


Mr. Rumsfeld, You're FIRED!!!

[Ksec]

31. Defending war criminals will do that to a person and shes aware of that

little fact that she may be in front of a jury someday and she will have to defend these positions shes been taking.

[UNCWDem]

34. Rice gone by November

I predicted she would be gone by the November election. This was a year ago. Just because she is head of National Security and it was breached, it would only make logical sense to get rid of the person in charge. Bye Bye Condi.:nopity:

[FlemingsGhost]

43. They had better jettison her sooner, than later.

The closer we get to November, the less likely we will see any public displays of policy shift or cabinet disarray.

[goclark]

204. She Goes -He Goes

They really are twins. She speaks for Baby Bush and he can not live without her.
It reminds me of Wally Simpson, he could have been King but he was nothing without her.
They are so close that whatever happens to her,he would be guilty too.

Let them resign - Now!
They could go and live in the South of France and meet some of Kerry's relatives.

[chookie]

40. They cannot dismiss his claims for an obvious reason

His Chimperial Highness and his court of flying monkeys have all declared that they were focused with laser accuracy on Al Qaeda from the beginning.

Okay -- if this is true, they why did they marginalize and then demote Richard Clarke, who "shared" their interest in doing away with Al Qaeda? Seems that they would want him on the team, if they had the same goal, as they are all claiming today to protect themselves from his accusations. Condi is saying that he never participated in the "grownup's" discussion of terrorism, which they held every day at a high level.

Now, if he was talking wacky, saying stuff like the Masons or UFOs were the biggest threats to national security, I could see them gently moving him off the team.

But since he "shared" their passion to fight terrorism, and Al Qaeda in particular and thus all on the same page-- why the snub?

Seems pretty obvious to me. They didn't want him around because he wasn't telling His Chimperial Highness what he wanted to hear. O! -- there's that familiar pattern again!!

[Ksec]

42. was he invited to join the grownups Condi?

And since Clarke has 2 proven witnesses that back his claim of his conversations warning Bush of Alqaeda it seems just more reasons to keep him on. Clarke also took Hawk Wolfowitzs side against Dove Colin powells in previous conflicts before so you cant say he was bias against Hawks......

[chookie]

45. Neo-Con-di Rice

Remember in the pre-Sept 11, Condi's favorite talking point was "You have got to realize that the Cold War is over," but never really gave us a whole lot of details. In hindsight, she was telling us that the PNAC project of Pax Americana was now underway, and that the US was planning a long-term campaign to completely alter the nature of the Middle East, to pacify it using military means.

Pat Buchanon a few weeks ago wrote an article that condemned the Neo-Cons, but defended Bush, saying he was a decent man who was mislead by creeps like Perle and Wolfowitz. While I agree with the "creeps" part, Pat B has the "poor innocent decent Georgie" thing wrong. Why? Well, if dear little George had such noble plans for the world, why the hell did he appoint known SOBs like Perle, Wolfowitz, Noriega, Negroponte, etc etc etc as his closest advisors? Are we to believe it was a coincidence and just God's grace that these guys were around to "spontaneously" respond to Sept 11 2001? Yeah, right. Pat needs to rethink that one.

And WHY if His Chimperial Highness had his laser eye on terror from Day One did he appoint a Sovietologist and an oil company advisor to be his National Security Advisor? Hell, if it had been me, I'd be looking for a really good anti-terror expert.

It's all lies.

[UNCWDem]

44. Notice where Rice was this morning!!!!!

They put Rice on the White House lawn to defend the Administration on the morning shows. I think strongly she was put out in the yard to defend herself. What does anyone else think??????

[chookie]

49. Possibly. One of Clarke's accusations...

...is that he believed that His Chimperial Highness's innermost circle made sure that he didn't get the news he didn't want to hear.

NeoCondi Rice was one of these -- under orders of Cheney. She didn't want to jeopardize her job by not obeying orders that the rich white men gave her. Apparently there hasn't been a first time....

[justjones]

105. Perhaps she was put out on the WH lawn cuz....

she ain't no house slave no mo'.

Her usefulness as window dressing for the Chimp brigade is fading and she's been ordered to either to cover their shit up by shoveling more shit or face the consequences.....which is to cast out of the White House by her massa and be a field slave forever.....

Poor Condi. For a supposedly intelligent woman she should have figured this out a long time ago.....I wish I could feel sorry for her, but I don't.

[calimary]

57. My husband saw her on TV this morning and his reaction was

intriguing. He said she looked as though she'd been up crying all night. She really DID look shaky. Her voice sounded shaky, too.

[Jacobin]

101. She should be up crying all night every night for the

destruction she is enabling around the world.

[PaDUer]

137. Guess she knows

she's been used..How does it feel Condi? Ah, don't worry about it, remember the flight on turkey day w/ shrub, your hubby, who said you both looked like a married couple..he'll take care of you....REAL GOOD!! Now you're trapped...feel good, doesn't it! You're going to love JAIL!

[0007]

73. Has the book hit the major book stores yet?

[opihimoimoi]

109. She is a Peterette of the worst kind, elevated to a level of ineptness

and has to fake her way thru.

She hasn't shown us one iota of having passed her exams and actually learning something from them. Pathetic and in face saving denial.

[Skittles]

111. she is a fraud, nothing but a Bush Whore

and now the whole world f***ing knows it. She's shaken? GOOD.

[historian]

115. poor condi

[Solomon]

123. Yep. The book is out. I just picked it

up. Tee hee.

[Woodstock]

131. If she's done then Bush won't have anyone to read him stories

He said he never reads the paper and he gets all his news from a few of Cheney's handpicked neocons. But he always liked Condi's storytelling best.

[thingfish]

155. She's trembling like a gut-shot fawn.

This is the National Security Advisor?!?!

Pathetic.

[Zinfandel]

196. Time to "spend more time with her family". write a book about how tough

Bush is on terrorism.

[U4ikLefty]

200. She did look like she was in trouble

I really think if she was smart, she would jump ship.

[devinsgram]

215. Constant lying is not good for anybody.

It begins to take it's toll not only on the mind, but on the body also.