If LIHOP is true, and it comes out in detail,

[Doctor_J]

can the nation withstand it? WOuldn't it be better to see just the tip of the iceberg, enough to get * tossed back to Crawford, sweep in Kerry and a Dem Senate, and just move along? Do we really want the nation dragged through the grisly details?

:scared:

[Junkdrawer]

1. Would you like to make sure it never happens again?

Because it will unless it's exposed whatever IT is.

[Abe Linkman]

2. Depends on what you mean by "LIHOP"

It isn't really possible for the 9-11 "attacks" to have occurred without
certain things having been done by non "terrorists".

So, there's really no such thing as LIHOP. MIHOP is all it could have been, if the "Wacky Caveman" isn't solely responsible for it.

[Eureka]

3. Yes, you do

America can hold it's head up proud not because bad things don't happen, but because it has the ability to learn from it's mistakes and do better next time around.

As an analogy, a lot of freepers carry on about John Kerry testifying about Vietnam and bringing 'disrepute' to the country and the services. This is the wrong way around. "Things" that may have happened over there are not the sole domain of terrible regimes or the US, but the difference is a good regime will stand up and say "this is wrong, it shouldn't happen this way, lets fix it".

By admitting mistakes and taking steps to ensure they don't happen again you will be making your country better.

Ignoring it will only let it happen again.

[Doctor_J]

But the level of corruption, and

depravity, that LIHOP implies says really horrific things about us as a people. I see Cheney remaining on the board of a company that's getting billions of $ in no-bid contracts. I see Fat Tony refusing to recuse himself from a case involving the man he installed in office. I see * refusing to answer questions from the families of the 9/11 victims. I see these things and I understand that we need a thorough house cleaning. But LIHOP would mean a rottenness at the core that may not be conquerable - that the man in the White House could have prevented our shores from being breached, our citizens being murdered. That goes way beyond the usual Washington "business as usual". IOW, the bottom of this one may be very, very deep.

Still :scared:

[Eureka]

11. I have the advantage.......

as an Aussie my convict background :-) means that I already think all governments are rotten to the core.

I see all those things too, and I see an administration (dare I say it, a system) that is rotten to the core.

If it isn't going to be cleaned properly, there is no point doing a little cleaning. But I think the cleaning analogy is good. The other day I spilled some juice near the refrigerator, and wiped it up, but there was a bit in the tile grout that came back. I cleaned again, same thing happened. Eventually I had to shift the entire refrigerator to clean it up, but if I didn't, the mess would still be there.

I think the * administration has done so many bad things it will take a real exposure of all of it to wake up the complacent members of society who don't really care. Maybe they didn't care about "Washington business as usual" but the might care about this (if it's true)

Imagine how much better the system would be if the entire country said "Enough! You're honest or you're gone"

[RedEagle]

18. LIHOP Isn't About Us- It's About Them

The "Them" that think they can manipulate and destroy for their gain, any time they want to.

"Them" are not us.

Can you ever cure just a little of the cancer?

If this does not come out, you'll be up against Jeb or the next "annnointed" one. The cabal will live on, ultimately, we'll go through this again, and again, until we finally see the light and understand exposing it all is something we must face.

[shimmergal]

29. No, it says really horrific things about the gang of thugs in power.

Depending on how many of "the people" continue to believe in them once really damning evidence comes out, it may say really scary things about those people's stupidity or warped emotional needs.

But remember, we're a 50-50 country. I'd venture that almost everyone I know--or even to whom I've talked casually--who voted for Gore, has at least entertained the possibility of LIHOP or MIHOP.
Trouble is, nobody can know for sure. And even if we know for sure, we don't know what to do about it if the next election fails.

[thingfish]

4. If true, we need to imeach, arrest. convict...

...and execute.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kurovski]

20. OMG

I've been saying good cop/bad cop for a month now.

Not on DU. It isn't really allowed.

Not convinced of "enactment" scenario. Unless you consider provocation and LIHOP an enactment, but even then I have only suspicions.

Welcome to DU, achilles999.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tkmorris]

23. You know what?

That being your first post here a lot of people are going to question your motivation. I won't though, because I really don't care.

The fact is, if there is a Democrat anywhere who played ANY PART WHATSOEVER in the events of 9/11 I want his ass nailed to a tree. Things like this are not partisan. Anyone responsible for a crime of this magnitude needs to be arrested and never ever see the light of day again.

[Andy_Stephenson]

30. Welcome to DU

and I have to agree with you...It is not only the Republicans in power that did this. There are many Democrats that are culpable as well.

[IronLionZion]

5. It has to come out

The people have a right to know so it never happens again. And frankly I don't care what happens to Bush as long as John Kerry is sworn in as President. It would be nice to see the neo-cons locked up in prison though.

[Andy_Stephenson]

31. But Kerry voted for the war.

I have a hard time giving him a pass. Millions around the world protested. He did not listen to the counsel of the people. Do you think he will convict Bush? Or even let Bush stand trial? I don't think so.

[FlemingsGhost]

6. Nixon

If we threw his ass in jail like we should have, these folks would have thought twice. It's no accident that many of the names are the same...

Anything short of impeachment and jailtime is tantamount to taking a shit on the U.S. Constitution.

[MuseRider]

12. Exactly.

I was thinking about this earlier. They are so entrenched in everything that they must be brought down. They will make sure Kerry is a one termer and then they will be back. If we do not do it now then we may as well just let them stay in power. This has been so well planned for so long that we have to take this to the end and persue every truth so it does not happen again.

[RainDog]

32. we need a list

who can help me out here...

Nixon- pardoned by Ford, who was also on the Warren Commission.

Reagan- was not impeached over Iran/Contra because "the nation couldn't endure another impeachment...tho it did, didn't it?

Richard Helms- pardoned for lying to Congress...his daughter, Laila, was the liason for the Taliban.

Oliver North- pardoned for lying to Congress, should be in jail for subverting the Constitution because of Iran-Contra. Instead, he lies and spins radical right wing bullshit on tv, a slap in the face to our founders, who thought the Constitution would be honored by those who are sworn to uphold it.

Elliot Abrams, Otto Reich, John Poindexter-- all now part of the radical right wing junta perpetuating dirty tricks.

George Bush- we got his son because he was not held accountable for Iraggate, nor for supplying Pakistan with nuclear components...and Pakistan's secret police (the ISI) were fighting against our troops in Afghanistan in 2001. Robert Parry has produced good evidence about the "october surprise" which delayed the release of the hostages in Iran to elect Reagan...which again has led us to where we are today.

Prescott Bush and George Herbert Walker and Averell Harriman- all traded with the enemy, Adolph Hitler, and in business with "Hitler's banker" Thyssens. Ford, J.P. Morgan, and other corporate money grubbers who helped build the Nazi war machine that killed our soldiers.

Carter, Reagan, Bush- Armed the mujahadeen and gave us Osama bin Laden.

Henry Kissinger- Conspired with Pinochet to assassinate Rene Schneider and overthrow Allende.

[bobbieinok]

48. a list of people involved in .....

...JFK murder

...Nixon admin - Watergate

...Reagan-Bush admin - Iran/contra

...W admin - 9-11 and....

how many were involved in 2 or more?

I now see the GOP believes in 'recycling' ....people and ideas

[benburch]

7. Yes - ALL of it

All of the grisly details.

Each and every ugly truth.

Until people view "Republican" as they do "Nazi" and those who still consider themselves to be Republicans are afraid to mention the fact in mixed company.

[Vickers]

8. Yes...

...all of the details need to come out, be documented, the appropriate folks dealt with, etc.

I think 4 more years of Georgie and his pals would be much more destructive than a (yes, I admit it will be) scary, horrible, and divisive rooting out of the evil that is there now. It'll hurt, but it needs to be done.

Our country will be stronger for it. The ideals that our country was based on will be invigorated. We will show that we can heal.

[BeFree]

9. Drip, drip, drip

"Can the nation withstand it?"

Two and a half years of denial is a rather large dam. Two and a half years of looking the other way and refusing to face the terrible fact of a coverup. Two and a half gawd forsaken years.

The nation will be sorely tested. The two and a half years of denial will turn into a heart wrenching, gut strangling realization that things are NOT as they seemed.

We, those who have seen through the fog of war and the lies, have a unique responsibility to hold our countrymen's hands through the coming storm. We must not berate our fellows who just now are being apprised of the Truth. We must not make their pain any greater than it will be. But I don't think our shouting: "We told you so" will be of any harm. In fact it will give creedence to our positions as we progress forward and get beyond 9/11 into the rest of the 21st Century on the bridge first put up by Bill Clinton.

Peace

[Minstrel Boy]

10. "can the nation withstand it?" is the kind of reasoning that

perpetuates a cover up with the best of intentions. It's a rationale used over and over again by those who were not themselves involved in the conspiracy, but came to some knowledge of it after the fact, or some strong suspicion, and had it in their means to help bring the truth to light. Yet they chose to keep Americans in the dark, for fear of shattering the republic.

I've read similar arguments to perpetuate the lies regarding high crimes such as the state-sanctioned murder of a sitting president on a Dallas street and the trafficking of cocaine into US inner cities to fund off-the-book CIA adventures.

So many lies for so many years about the sickness at the heart of America's National Security State. Truth may be all that can shock America back to health.

[RichM]

13. No. US society could not really withstand it. Assuming it's true, and that

it came out, I think it would lead to complete breakdowns of major institutions that already are wobbly. The public is already very hostile towards the media and the political system. People sense they're being cheated and lied to. If something as big as LIHOP really came out, the level of hatred for these institutions could be quite explosive. There might be riots outside of media company offices, or government offices. Many might refuse to pay their taxes. There might be bombings. I think things could come unglued.

After all, it would be acknowledgement of the ultimate in corruption. I'd almost say that I HOPE something violent would happen, should such knowledge come out - because if it didn't, that would mean our whole population is a bunch of hopeless zombies.

Certainly, though, the powers-that-be would do ANYTHING, & I mean ANYTHING, to prevent confirmation of such a thing from leaking out into the public arena.

[FlemingsGhost]

19. I respectfully disagree.

If American society can endure the treasonous crime perpetrated upon them that day in September... they can survive--and are entitled to--the closure that the truth will bear.

It's too late. To suppress the truth now, would only bring about, and perhaps hasten the "breakdowns" you fear.(Why do you think they are "wobbly," in the first place?)

Nah... Let us collectively rise from the ashes. Republican and Democrat alike. We have been living in denial long enough.

[Nihil]

40. Different situation

> If American society can endure the treasonous crime perpetrated upon
> them that day in September... they can survive

I believe that American society endured that crime because it was laid
out in a way that mapped onto the American psyche. It was immediately
blamed on "some foreigner" (moreover, "someone of a different race and
religion") and that sits just fine on the American ideal of "we're the
best in the world and everyone is just jealous".

(Note: I am not kicking at you guys here, just a very common, widespread
attitude prevalent amongst the American public.)

If the crime had been tagged to the "elected leadership" - the people
they had just "chosen" less than a year before - that would be so far
past the barrier of believability that there would have incredible
problems in acceptance. American society would have been deeply riven
and may even have resulted in rebellion - certainly widespread violent
protest that would have been met with ultra-hard-core authoritarian
response.

Since that day, the polarisation has not decreased, it has become even
more severe as the gap between "haves" and "have-nots" has increased,
there have been losses in two unnecessary wars, there have been vast
amounts of money swindled for no punishment, there has been an ongoing
transfer of public money away from the public and into the pockets of
the administration (& its cronies).

The administration has raised the barricades through enactment of new
laws - restricting liberty combined with heavy-handed enforcement
measures - as well as electoral corruption.

The people who want to believe the administration have become more
entrenched in their position, closing their eyes & ears to anything
that might enlighten them.

The people who disbelieve the administration have found it to be an
ever harder task to get the truth out to the populous.

Both sides have talked openly of armed struggle.

No, I respectfully suggest that American society will not survive the
coming storm in any shape that would be recognised five years ago.

Nihil

[Karenina]

42. Excellent post, Nihil!

Prosit! :toast:

[Nihil]

43. Thanks!

Glad it wasn't a thread-killer this time!

Cheers! :toast:

[struggle4progress]

37. Deals deals deals

It would be too valuable as political capital not to spend immediately.

[bobbieinok]

49. ???isn't there some statement in the info about the Bush-Walker-

Harriman backing of the Nazis...

that 'this info must not be revealed because the people would lose confidence in US institutions-banks, business, govt'

[TankLV]

14. Can we really afford not to?

Look where all this "leave raygun alone" crap has gotten us.

We should have done it then, and we should do it now.

Funny, how this wasn't much of a concern about the blow job crap last time either.

But again, "we don't want to put the country thru this" crap is brought up again.

We are strong. We can take it. WE NEED IT!

NO PARDONS.

NO FORGETTING.

NEVER AGAIN!

I want to see as a minimum, jail time. As justice - the "ultimate" penalty for treason - and not just for bunkerboy - SOCTUS, the repukes in Congress - EVERYONE.

[Nevernose]

16. Maybe

I can see the pragmatism in your thinking.

[Cleita]

17. The World Court at the Hague.

I think BushCo have enough international crimes behind them to be put on trial. How does it happen? Do other nations have to file charges?

[maggrwaggr]

21. I have no problem introducing Shrub to "Sparky"

after all, he sent a lot of people to "Sparky" while he was the gov. of Texas, no?

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

[Bridget Burke]

41. (small correction)

Ol' Sparky was unplugged a long time ago.

Executions in Texas are done by lethal injection.

[maggrwaggr]

50. I know, I was speaking figuratively

so the post wouldn't get banned. :)

What's a good nickname for the ol' lethal injection?

[maggrwaggr]

22. you got a problem with the truth?

if you do, then you're part of the problem.

[Beam Me Up]

24. YES THIS NATION CAN WITHSTAND THIS

and it will be better for having done so. The full truth. Frankly, I find no other acceptable solution.

[leftofthedial]

26. absolutely

public executions and all

sweeping something like this under the rug just makes it more likely to happen again.

the seeds of this were sown by reagan and poppy when they got away with iran contra and worse.

[RainDog]

27. truth is the blood transfusion a dying democracy needs

if LIHOP of some sort of another is true, our nation NEEDS to know the truth in order to make the reforms we need to restore democracy.

Chalmers Johnson's book, The Sorrows of Empire, is so important because he sees what is also so obvious to so many who are not caught up in the American propaganda mill...

and that is that our democracy has been subverted by military-base empire which is not accountable to the American people via our Congress, a violation of the Constitution.

What we should have learned from Vietnam, through Watergate, then Iran/Contra, and on, now with Iraq and the neo-con coup and their perpetual war mantra is that democracy cannot thrive with an imperial presidency with a private army (via an unaccountable CIA, NSA, FBI, Pentagon). There is NO oversight for these groups that really makes them accountable.

Frank Church started to go after these groups and they raised hell...at one point he was accused of causing the death of an agent, but George Bush Sr. denied this.

Now, we have an administration which endangers the hunt for WMD by outing an agent and the imperial executive branch thinks they can bury the story.

Isn't it ironic that these very agencies are now the ones which have seen, up close, the excesses of imperialism and are trying to warn the American public and tell them to WAKE UP and toss out these dangerous and anti-Constitutional fanatics?

[Voltaire]

51. Okay so after we take the White House

Then it will be our responsibility to see that justice is brought to bear on these criminals. It will only be by direct action of the people that they will be imprisoned as they deserve. DEMAND that the President and the Congress take all deliberate steps to see that this is done for the good of the People Of The United States.

We have to be the squeaky wheel to see Bush and his cronies behind bars. And if they are not placed behind bars then this entire exercise is a waste of time. Take a vacation between the election and the inauguration but on January 21, 2005 we start pinging on Kerry forcefully to get this done.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

28. I want to know all of the truth, not just a little.

[neebob]

33. It won't come out

I keep waiting for someone to mention PNAC. I thought Richard Clarke was going to go for it when he talked about the Bushies returning to office and working on Cold-War issues, old issues, as if they'd been preserved in amber. He has to know about PNAC. All the real news reporters have to know. It's right there on the web - statement of principles with signers' names, white paper with the line about the new Pearl Harbor and all - yet no one ever mentions it. And I don't believe they will.

Imagine what would happen if it suddenly became public knowledge, and someone started really digging, and it all came out, and everyone realized the president, vice president, Secretary of Defense, and others in the administration are criminals of this magnitude. That they let 3,000 people die and then used it as an excuse to invade other countries with the goal of dominating the world and enriching themselves and their friends. It would throw the entire world into chaos. And hardly anybody would make any money off of it. Not gonna happen.

[RainDog]

34. It would not throw the whole world into chaos

this is typical American myopia.

The rest of the freaking world ALREADY KNOWS.

They're waiting, hoping, and praying Americans will wake up and stop the spiral of destruction that we are currently experiencing, so that we don't take the rest of the world with us...

THIS will be the result of NOT facing this and dealing with it.

The neocons and the corporate heads who get fat off their military contracts are the kids in Willie Wonka's Military-Industrial Complex...the entire world is just another gobstopper to them.

[neebob]

35. Okay, so I'm myopic

It's these darned American contact lenses, which I just learned (by holding the package far enough away to read the small print) are made in Indonesia.

[RainDog]

36. I've been wearing geek glasses instead of my contacts

Deals with the myopia, but does nothing for the stigmatism... :)

[JCMach1]

38. There are only 3 possibilites out there now

MIHOP
LIHOP
and TOTAL INCOMPETENCE...

All of them are damning!!!

[MI Cherie]

39. They knew it or they blew it ...

... WE WILL get through it!

Bring it on!

:nopity:

[maggrwaggr]

52. I like that! "they knew it or they blew it"

[graphixtech]

44. Many Americans have recently had their eyes OPENED

about how corrupt our government really is.

Americans are hungry for the FULL truth about 9-11. Would we allow a child to tell us a small portion of an ugly truth, to spare us adults the trauma of dealing with it? No, we must deal with REALITY.

Anything less than the full truth equals tactic approval of criminal actions, for cowardly temporary convenience.


" We need answers YESTERDAY"
Ellen Mariani, Feb. 22, 2004

sign her petition:
http://911forthetruth.com/

[playahata1]

45. This nation NEEDS to be scared straight.

Tell it ALL. And tell it TRUE.

[truthspeaker]

46. Yes. Knowledge is always preferable to ignorance.

[bobthedrummer]

47. Shine the light of truth into The Shadow Government

many already are.
Betrayal and treason are what you will find-but, we have remedies for that.
Shine on.

[Jackpine Radical]

53. Would you make that same argument about

Hitler, the Germans and the death camps?

[info being]

54. Can a nation built on lies survive? eom

[proud patriot]

55. The American People Can Handle the Truth

Yes they may protest but guess what
this country needs a kick in it's
survivor American Idol watching
Tush.

It's time for participation
It's time for Democracy here
in America .