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historian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:16 AM
Original message
the old gun question
I personally dont understand this fascination with guns. If we are so civilizaed we shouldnt need them. Anyway... I asked my favorite local freeper (who loves arguing with me - he believes i am being converted) why he needs so many guns.
"Well" he says with a freeper smirk "aint no government coming in my house and takin away my freedom"
Says I "If the government wants to go to your house and do anything they want, you could have an arsenal and it wouldnt do you much good. In the final analysis of things, with the breakdown of the law currently going on (thanks to senor bush) all they would have to do is either run over your house with a tank or flatten you with a missile. And please, dont tell me Hitler would never have happened if citizens had guns - thats like saying you have the right to a bazooka since you never know when some evil rabbit is going to invade your backyard."
Says he "Werent you some sort of hippy in the 60's protesting the war?" As far as he was concerned argument was over - chalk one more up for him.
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
1. OTOH, how many bullets to kill a tyrant?
You don't NEED to compete with the US government on firepower.

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truthspeaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
2. response to "we are so civilized we shouldn't need them"
Not everyone is civilized. It takes only one foe to breed a war, as Tolkien said.

Mine's mostly for shooting tasty waterfowl, but could be used against burglars or DEA agents in a pinch.
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. True. The fact that we are civilized does not imply that all are. Also,
If you cannot survive to pass on a philosophy, of what use is it?
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. i personally believe that
any weapon the military has its citizens should have
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Um, noooo...there's one problem with going THAT far...
...ask yourself THIS: Who can afford an M1 Abrams tank?

Do you really want those people running around with armored fighting vehicles? Hell, most Americans have proven that they cannot be trusted with SUVs.

I would say, though, that (not including WMDs), any weapon usable by one person should be legal.
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. why buy a tank?
tank buster rockets are alot cheaper
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. True, but we have no shortage of stupid rich people.
I can see Charleton Heston now, running over "smudgy people" in an Abrams.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. Good one 7th_
If we all had the same arsenal it would be nothing more than a cold war. Like the one that relies on Mutual Assured Destruction. MAD has kept the uncivilized from doing uncivilized things.

I'm with you... our military should have the same chance to acquire weapons as any citizen. No more, no less. Of course, it would require worldwide compliance, eh?
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. yeah
but its the best way to keep the bushies in line
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handywork Donating Member (176 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. I'm just curious...
what do you think is the need for such weapons?
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. The need? Ask yourself these two questions:
1. What if they decide that the election "has" to be "postponed"?

2. Exactly how many bullets does it take to kill a tyrant?

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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. exactly
i make my own ammo .50 cal HighV ammo
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Heh. All I have is an old bolt action 30.06. Of course, that's all I
need.
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. i only have 3 guns
a pair of desert eagles and a pre-ban PSG-1
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. DEs are fun. But not fun enough for me to justify the expense. :envy:
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. its not just for the fun
they will stop just about anything
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. So will my ancient bolt action. But still, DEs ARE a hoot, if you can
find a safe, suitable place to blast away with them.
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:02 PM
Original message
yeah there are some good out door ranges here
and the kick isint that bad for me at all anymore
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
30. Not in my area.
:cry:
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. *pat pat* it'll be ok
just save up to get a pair (ammo is expensive, so i make my own) and hunt down a nice range outside the city/town
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Superfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. The need? Ask yourself *this question*...
- What business is it of anybody else what my needs are.

Not arguing with you, MadProph...just saying that this is the paramount question when addressing personal needs.
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Sure...but this IS just a friendly little forum, and the question wasn't
all that personal.
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Superfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Sounds pretty personal to me
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Not really. If we are to defend our position on rights, we have to be
prepared to EXPLAIN our position.

The constitution is under fire from the right as it is. I would prefer that we on the left don't go after any part of it, including the 2d.

This is why it must be discussed, motivations and all.
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Superfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. I'm not sure I follow...
Somebody in this thread asked "why do you need a ***....." and I responded with "what business is it of anybody's what my needs are".

I believe in no-compromises on the BOR and heartily believe that the Consitution is a document which restricts the power of the government, not the rights of citizens.
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. And you are absolutely correct. However, the BoR ALSO allows the
question to be asked, and it allows me to answer.

I have no problem discussing the need for the various amendments. If there ever was a time to defend the constitution, this is it...and flat out denial of the debate isn't likey, IMO, to help us in this.
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Superfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Like I said in my original post...
I wasn't arguing with *you* just suggesting another question you could tack on to the 2 you posed.

I am not denying the debate, in fact, if you ever venture to the Justice and Public Safety forum, you will find that I am very frequently involved in heated discussions on this and other issues.
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Okay, I think I'll go there, too. Thanks for the steer. N/T.
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Superfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Looking forward to seeing you there!
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #3
36. I'm all in with you on this one
Sorry, but the Bloodless Coup and Bushevik Occupation of Amerika should underscore the need for the 2nd Amendment now more than ever.

I know this is something of a hypothetical argument, but does anyone really think the Bushevik would be moving this slowly if they didn't fear an armed populace "damaging their prize" with Civil War.

My opinion: They would be much closer to where Comrade Putin is now, having used the Bushevik Playbook 100% and having seen how far along Putin is towards his "managed democracy".

This is not about one's chances against the government or anything else that small.

This is about "seeing the forest" for the trees and that, in general, an armed populace will slow down a tyrant, making him proceed with much more caution than he normally would with an unarmed citizenry.
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handywork Donating Member (176 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. heads up tasty waterfowl
i gots me a semi-automatic.

Thats my real problem with it. Ok people want guns to "protect themselves from _________ " We don't a arsenal...
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Superfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. I hunt ducks with a semi-automatic...
and here it is:


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handywork Donating Member (176 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #9
25. wow
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 12:01 PM by handywork
that is a nice semi-automatic shotgun!!!

No I see what you are saying, and i know you dont go shooting ducks with semi-automatic weapons. But seriously what would the benefit of having them be? Defense? and if so from what?
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. From what? From...
...an organized group that has STATED that it "might be necessary to suspend elections".

That's what.
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Superfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. So far...
I've been carjacked and had my home broken into (with me in it). In both cases, I could have averted the crime with a firearm, and in both cases I had a firearm on me, but I reserved it as a last option.

It's not a case of "need" for me...it's a case of "want". I want a M-4 carbine, because they are fun to shoot and a good rifle to teach my wife to shoot accurately without too much recoil.

I do not ask the question why another person "needs" or "wants" anything, rather I enjoy the fact that we live in a free society (at least for now) where those choices can be made.
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handywork Donating Member (176 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. I've been held up at gun point
and even in that situation I dont think having a gun on me would have really helped out the situation. If you enjoy shooting for the fun of it I understand, but I dont really feel like even if we had guns and wanted to defend ourselves against a oppressive government we would really be that successful anyway
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Beats meekly submitting to tyranny.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. I was successful in stopping an assault which could have turned into rape
Since I refuse to be held hostage in the 'safety' of my own domicile, a gun is not a bad companion.

I now live in a rural community which has 3 law enforcement officers for a county of over a million acres. If one should need an officer, one has a slim chance he is on duty anywhere near. How long is response time in a major city? Probably not much better than where I live.

Yes, an Abrams tank would likely break up my happy home pretty easily, but it would have to get through some highly independent and well armed neighbors to do it.

They couldn't smash everybody's homes at the same time and if they started trying, there would be a fight anywhere in this nation.

If they tried to shut down the polling places, I think citizens in a whole lot of communities would open them back up.
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
31. As G Gordan Liddy says "Aim for the Head" if the federal police arrive
at your door. I'm sure you won't live to see the sun rise but what the hey you will have killed a cop. :shrug:
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truthspeaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #31
39. I was referring to the DEA, not legitimate law enforcement
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Romulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
38. the 20th century answer to the question
After enduring the 20th century, I don't see how anyone can argue against the private ownership of firearms.

If there is one lesson to be learned from Dachau, Stalingrad, Ukraine, Srebrenica, Cambodia, Rwanda, Haiti, and Afghanistan it's that no government of human beings can ever be trusted 100% not to turn on its citizens or other neighboring countries' citzens and slaughter them wholesale.

A second lesson to be learned from those events and even 9/11 is that no government is able to protect you from people wishing to do you harm -you're on your own.

People should be afforded the opportunity to do something about any attempts by governments, government-supported actors, or others to kill them off, beyond waving puppets in the streets or singing kum-baye-yah.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
40. Protect yourself
After 21 yrs in law enforcement i can sadly say i was never able to respond until after the crime was committed.
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hansberrym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
42. Are you fascinated with finding out the the truth?

As a historian, have you given any thought to how the history of the second amendment is used in the courts? Do the arguments made by Federal Judges (below) trouble you at all?



Judge Reinhard of the Ninth circuit in Silveira v. Lockhart:

(quote)
Moreover, in other public fora, some of the framers explicitly
disparaged the idea of creating an individual right to personal
arms. For instance, in a highly influential treatise, John
Adams ridiculed the concept of such a right, asserting that the
general availability of arms would “demolish every constitution,
and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed
by no man — it is a dissolution of the government.” 3 JOHN 50
(end quote)


The actual quote in context exposes the Judge's lie.


Defense of the Constitution, John Adams:
”To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, EXCEPT IN PRIVATE SELF-DEFENCE, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws..."
(My emphasis)

The good judge could not have missed John Adams exception for
PRIVATE SELF-DEFENCE, nor could he misunderstand the meaning.





Also From Silveira v. Lockyer:
The Pennsylvania minority, so frequently cited by the proponents of the individual rights view, also used language markedly different from that of the Second Amendment. Its proposal for a federal constitutional amendment, which was rejected in favor of the Second Amendment, would have unambiguously established a personal right to possess arms for personal purposes: (my emphasis)

o law shall be passed for disarming the people or any of them, unless for crimes committed, or real danger of public injury from individuals . . . .” The Address and Reasons of Dissent of the Minority of the Convention of the State of Pennsylvania to Their Constituents, at 623- 24 (quoted in Finkelman, supra, at 208).
(end quote)


Judge Reinhardt selectively quotes from the Pennsylvania Minority but he slips up and allows a little too much truth into his argument. The Judge admits that the provision that he quotes from is “unambiguously” directed to an individual right. A reading of the actual proposed amendments from the PA Minority is telling. Note that there were 14 proposed amendments in all, below are the 2 which are mentioned in the Silveira opinion.


7) That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and their own state, or the United States, or for the purpose of killing game, and no law shall be passed for disarming the people or any of them, unless for crimes committed, or real danger of public injury from individuals; and as standing armies in the time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military shall be kept under strict subordination to and be governed by the civil powers. (my emphasis)


11) That the power of organizing, arming and disciplining the militia (the manner of disciplining the militia to be prescribed by Congress) remain with the individual states, and that Congress shall not have authority to call or march any of the militia out of their own state, without the consent of such state, and for such length of time only as such state shall agree.

That the sovereignty, freedom and independency of the several states shall be retained, and every power, jurisdiction and right, which is not by this constitution expressly delegated to the United States in Congress assembled. (excerpted from The Anti-Federalist and the Constitutional Convention Debates; Ralph Ketcham, Mentor, copyright 1986)




How does Judge Reinhardt explain that the words “the people have a right to bear arms” are in a proposed amendment that unambiguously was meant to establish an individual right? He doesn’t – Judge Reinhardt simply edits those words out of the original text when presenting his argument.


Furthermore, Judge Reinhardt’s argument that the PA Minority proposal is “markedly different” from the Second Amendment is laughable when viewed in the full text. The actual right expressed in the second amendment is nearly identical to the right expressed in the second amendment.

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms..."
(right as stated in the Second Amendment)

"The people have a right to bear arms..."
(right as stated in the Address of the PA minority )

Note that the right expressed in the Second Amendment is broader since there are no restrictive clauses following the statement of the right such as in the proposal of the PA minority. Judge Reinhardt would have us believe that the lack of restrictive clauses following the RKBA in the Second Amendment actually limits the RKBA in the Second amendment. That is assbackwards logic at best.




Then there is (DC Court) Judge Walton's feigned confusion on the word "keep" as it relates to the second amendment. Is it at all plausible that Judge Walton (or his assistant) does not know how to search for a word using Adobe (pdf)?

From Aymette:
"The convention, in securing the public political right in question, did not intend to take away from the legislature all power of regulating the social relations of the citizens upon this subject. It is true, it is somewhat difficult to draw the precise line where legislation must cease and where the political right begins, but it, is not difficult to state a case where the right of legislation would exist. The citizens have the unqualified right to keep the weapon, it being of the character before described as being intended by this provision. But the right to bear arms is not of that unqualified character. The citizens may bear them for the common defence; but it does not follow that they may be borne by an individual, merely to terrify the people or for purposes of private assassination. And, as the manner in which they are worn and circumstances under which they are carried indicate to every man the purpose of the wearer, the legislature may prohibit such manner of wearing as would never be resorted to by persons engaged in the common defence...
(end quote)


from Miller:
The General Assembly of Virginia, October, 1785 (12 Hening’s Statutes c. 1, p. 9 et seq.), declared:

‘The defense and safety of the commonwealth depend upon having its citizens properly armed and taught the knowledge of military duty.’ It further provided for organization and control of the Militia and directed that {b}‘All free male persons between the ages of eighteen and fifty years,’ with certain exceptions, ‘shall be inrolled or formed into companies.’ ‘There shall be a private muster of every company once in two months.’ Also that ‘Every officer and soldier shall appear at his respective muster-field on the day appointed, by eleven o’clock in the forenoon, armed, equipped, and accoutred, as follows: ... every non-commissioned officer and private with a good, clean musket carrying an ounce ball, and three feet eight inches long in the barrel, with a good bayonet and iron ramrod well fitted thereto, a cartridge box properly made, to contain and secure twenty cartridges fitted to his musket, a good knapsack and canteen, and moreover, each non-commissioned officer and private shall have at every muster one pound of good <307 U.S. 174, 182> powder, and four pounds of lead, including twenty blind cartridges; and each serjeant shall have a pair of moulds fit to cast balls for their respective companies, to be purchased by the commanding officer out of the monies arising on delinquencies. Provided, That the militia of the counties westward of the Blue Ridge, and the counties below adjoining thereto, shall not be obliged to be armed with muskets, but may have good rifles with proper accoutrements, in lieu thereof. And every of the said officers, non-commissioned officers, and privates, shall constantly keep the aforesaid arms, accoutrements, and ammunition, ready to be produced whenever called for by his commanding officer.




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Peregrine Donating Member (712 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
43. Time may be approaching for the left to arm
We are losing the republic and what we are facing is a corporate/religious oligarchy.
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