Thanks Again, Nader!!!

[Jack_Dawson]

:hi:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4569835/

Ralph Nader may have been abandoned by some of his celebrity backers, railed against in Democratic Party circles and skewered on late night TV, but the consumer advocate still packs a powerful punch with young voters. According to the latest NEWSWEEK and Newsweek.com Genext poll, the feisty Nader, widely blamed for Al Gore’s defeat in the 2000 election, drew twice the support among voters aged 18-29 as he did in a comparable poll of all registered voters. The groundswell of youth support could mean good news for Nader, and perhaps more significantly, for President George W. Bush.

[bedtimeforbonzo]

1. Chomsky is on board

Though he says there is really not much difference between bush and kerry.

[Bandit]

15. I wish Senator Kerry would emphasize the differences a little more

All I seem to hear is Bush* bad vote for me. I like Kerry and will gladly vote for him but I see an awful lot of similarities between what the GOP wants and what Kerry says he wants. I just want a more pronounced difference and then Nader wouldn't have a leg to stand on. We really do have to offer more than just Bush* sucks.

[Andy_Stephenson]

48. Yes I wish he would as well...

since I see damned little difference between them as well.

Don't get me wrong...I am following the advice of two sages and voting for him...but we need to hold his feet to the fire once he is in.

[shooga]

51. Nader is an ASSHOLE n/t

[Andy_Stephenson]

53. Yes agreed...

but he makes good points.

[VelmaD]

58. Is one of those "sages" me?

'Cause if it is...I'm touched honey.

[Andy_Stephenson]

66. Well to tell you the truth...

it was Noam Chomsky and Gore Vidal

[notadmblnd]

71. We still have Dennis?

nt

[debsianben]

50. Not quite

Chomsky said that the "minor" differences between Bush and the man he calls "Bush-lite" could have "major consequences" and that as such a victory for "Bush-lite" would be preferable. On the other hand, he said in the same interview that (quoting from memory) "as long as Nader is raising important issues, I will support him." I assume that the combination means that Chomsky is advocating "strategic voting," meaning voting for Nader wherever possible in safe red or blue states and holding ones nose and voting for "Bush-lite" in swing states.

[BootinUp]

2. Oh Dear....

These poor young 'uns have to wise up.

[meti57b]

3. good ol' ralph ... a paid operative of the republican party.

[tom_paine]

6. Once I didn't believe you...now I do

You think he charges 30 pieces of silver.

Actually, I think he came around to sharing the Bushevik contempt of Greens and decided to cash in on their foolishness instead of trying to help people he hates.

(yes, I'm pissed off!!)

[Cronus Protagonist]

35. Yup. I like the way he *talks*, but he *walks* hard right.

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[debsianben]

54. Back up or Apologize

That is an obscene, bizzare, self-evidently ridiculous and offensive conspiracy theory. Not a benign eccentric conspiracy theory like "the water is flouridated by agents of world communism," but an offensive one, like, "Jews were warned to stay home before 9/11." Any one who knows anything about either Nader or the GOP knows how ridiculous the suggestion is. Nader has lived like almost a monk for decades in full-time dedication to his cosumer advocacy and anti-corporate reform work. The man is a primary author of the Clean Water Act.

In New Hampshire, polls showed that he got more voted from Republicans than Democrats in 2000. The GOP was just as eager as the Dems to keep him out of the debates.

Cough up some evidence or apologize.

[tom_paine]

4. Ralph is a Bushevik F*CK!

If he isn't accepting money from the Imperial Family, he ought to be.

Stupid egocentric asshole. Stupid Gotterdammerung idiot!

(or maybe he's NOT stupid; maybe he's cashing those Bushevik cheques reeeeealll regular in the Caymans; it would not surprise me ONE IOTA)

Fuck you, Ralph! You shall go down as a key factor in the Death of the Old American Republic, a traitor to the democratic principles you profess to love Ralphie.

But we know that love, if indeed it exists, is second to your love of yourself.

Asshole.



:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

[Zero Gravitas]

5. Grumble grumble

:spank:

[IrateCitizen]

7. Keep this in context, please...

The people that Ralph Nader is attracting in this instance (18-29 year old idealists) is a group that, were it not for his candidacy, would likely NOT VOTE.

Of course, rather than complain about it, WE could launch efforts to get 18-29 year olds to vote for the Democratic nominee.

[pberq]

9. Well said, IRATECITIZEN

I'm tired of Democrats blaming Ralph Nader for their inability to attract votes on acount of their feeling the need to be more "centrist".

50% of Americans did not vote in 2000. With the enormous advantage of the mass media outlet (over Nader, who was basically blacked out), Gore should have been able to trounce Bush even with the 2 - 3% of the vote that went to Nader.

I say we focus on getting out the vote for Kerry this year and stop wasting time bashing Nader.

[tom_paine]

10. Even if what you said was true, you can't stop me from feeling as I do

Me and millions of others.

If indeed the Old American Republic is dead, then St. Ralphie should go down with Benedict Arnolds and Vytatus Quisling as histories greatest betrayers of freedom.

[IrateCitizen]

11. Nor should you stop feeling that way, tom_paine

However, in the face of such realities, it serves us little good to bemoan the circumstances in which we find ourselves. The solution to our ills comes from, well, finding solutions.

Hell, I voted for Nader in 2000 from an extremely safe state (NY). But I also view his run this year as an instance of a formerly good and decent man becoming a captive of his own vanity and ego. This was clear to see in his letter exchange with The Nation for urging him NOT to run. There's simply too much at stake for protest campaigns, of which we are mostly all aware.

Still, the victory lies not in moaning about the sabotage of Ralph Nader, but in strategies to GOTV. If we do this, then Ralph Nader's effort becomes largely meaningless.

[tom_paine]

14. Good point.

I can do both, however.

:evilgrin:

[Skittles]

26. um, HELLO

Ralph has ALWAYS been captive to his own vanity and ego.

[tom_paine]

28. Also a good point, Skittles, m'dear!

[Skittles]

30. it wasn't always bad

I used to be a fan of his, many moons ago. But he is just so much garbage now.

[klook]

19. THANK YOU!!

Why do so many have trouble seeing this obvious point? Nader voters see him as a 10 compared to Bush's 0, with Kerry being maybe a 6. For them, 6 isn't good enough.

For me, Bush's 0 is bad enough for me to vote for a 6 (or a 1, for that matter). But I respect the right of others to vote their conscience, or to stay home if they prefer.

If you read or listen to Nader, it's ludicrous to suggest that he's "in bed" with the Republicans.

[IrateCitizen]

20. Hey -- love your KV avatar!

My all-time favorite fiction writer! :toast:

[klook]

24. And Arundhati Roy is one of the coolest and most brilliant people

...in the universe. Not to mention insanely gorgeous. So we have the two best avatars on DU!!

Backatcha! :headbang:

[tom_paine]

23. If he isn't accepting Bushevik $$$, he should be

Why waste his briliant treason?

I don't give a tin sh*t about Nader's motivations in the same way I no longer care about Bushevik motivations.

At this late date...actions count and little else. Rationalizations mean shit.

I respect the right of people to vote for whom they wish to. I respect St. Ralphie's right to run if he chooses to, just like I have the right to say he is a selfish asshole, at the very least, and possibly a Bushevik operative, I don't care how syrupy sweet his words.

Treasonous bastards often must speak sweetly to paper over their acts. Again, it is irrelevant whether the treason is paid for, as opposed to if the person is performing treason out a deeply heartfelt belief.

Perhaps not strictly treason, but St. Ralphie has betrayed everything America stands for by facilitating a Tyrant.

I shall never forgive him.

NEVER!

[Woodstock]

76. Nader = Bush

I see no difference between Nader and Bush on the environment. A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush. Both are devastating to the environment.

Take that, Nader, for what you said about Al Gore. And Kerry.

With Nader out of the race, Kerry beats Bush in PA. With him in the race, Bush beats Kerry. Nader apologists are in denial if you think Nader isn't helping Bush. I've got several dozen statisticians I can refer you to who will say otherwise.

And frankly, the "it's the Democrats' own fault" preaching by Nader apologists is so much crap. I'm a Democrat and I'm doing everything I can to get Bush out of office. What are YOU doing to make things better, besides a protest vote that will enable Bush to destroy the planet?

Nader is in my way and in the way of everyone trying to save the world from the devastation that another four years of Bush will bring. People's LIVES are at stake while Nader spouts his egotistical, self-indulgent drivel. It's your choice to vote for Nader. It's my choice to tell Nader to go to hell.

[bluestateguy]

8. This will not be a popular post

But I hope those "youths" who support Nader get drafted in a second Bush Administration to teach them a lesson. I will show them NO sympathy. Most of these kids are from privilged backgrounds anyway, and like Taliban John Walker Lindh, they are looking for "spiritual self-discovery" by voting for a Communist candidate of the Far Left. They will get exactly what they deserve.

[corporatewhore]

first of all nader aint a commie 2nd he has support of a

of a great latino community activist in East Austin (were all the poor blacks and latinos live)he does great work like helping to set up scholar ship programs and raise awareness of police brutality and racial profiling something the mainstream liberals wouldnt touch with a ten feet pole. he could not vote for gore and he organized with me for dennis kucinich .I myself live in a tiny apartment raised by a single mother i never had insurance until my father joined the army (and will be redeployed next year under bush or kerry)That is a very hateful thing to say nobody owns asnybosys votes kerry has to earn our votes- just another disgruntled youth

[noiretextatique]

12. this message of yours is horrible

may i suggest you direct your outrage at republican disenfranshisement schemes and black box voting instead? people still have the right to vote for whomever they choose in this country, and the real travesty of the 2000 debacle is that some eligible voters couldn't vote...and none of our votes counted in the end, thanks to SCOTUS.

[Jack_Dawson]

29. Horrible? Hardly

If people don't vote or cast a vote that is essentially a vote for Bush, they should come to understand exactly what that vote means.

[noiretextatique]

32. hey Democrats...democracy

is about accepting that some people will not vote for your preferred candidate. you have to learn to deal with that, whether you like it or not. as i mentioned, IF all the eligible voters get to vote, and IF all the votes are counted, the democrats will likely win.
coincidentally, that didn't happen in 2000 :eyes:

[Jack_Dawson]

33. I'm not anti-democracy

If people want to vote for Nader (i.e. Bush), and they are drafted, I'm not going to be shedding any tears for them. Vote for whomever you wish!

[noiretextatique]

37. "Vote for whomever you wish!"

yep...that's the way it works.

as to wishing death on people...take it up with your own conscience.

[Jack_Dawson]

39. "Wishing death on people?"

And I thought my ex-girlfriend could put words in my mouth. You are the master! :toast:

[noiretextatique]

45. you want people to be drafted

but you don't won't them to die...how touching :eyes:
your words don't need any embellishing.

[Jack_Dawson]

57. Keep Grasping

I never said I wished death on anyone, and I never said "I hope people get drafted." If I did, please send me the link. NOW then, if someone votes for Bush and then gets drafted, that's on them. Stop putting words in my mouth, OK? Thanks.

[noiretextatique]

60. you didn't say that...the other poster did

you said "If people want to vote for Nader (i.e. Bush), and they are drafted, I'm not going to be shedding any tears for them."

and you're right...that is not as disgusting as actually wishing for people to be drafted for voting.

[ulysses]

63. huh?

and I never said "I hope people get drafted."

From your post #8:

But I hope those "youths" who support Nader get drafted in a second Bush Administration to teach them a lesson

:shrug:

[Jack_Dawson]

67. Was that me, or someone else?

Look again.

:think:

[ulysses]

68. ah, fair enough. n/t

[Woodstock]

77. Democracy also means spouting off about Nader if one choses to

Some of us are working hard to make things better, and he's in the way. Now, it's certainly his right to get in the way. And it's certainly the right of American citizens to vote as they see fit. But it's also our right to tell Nader to kiss our arses.

[IrateCitizen]

13. Not only is it unpopular, but it is completely asinine...

Rather than reflect on some of the Democratic Party's failures (that means YOU too, bubba) to attract these young voters, you would instead level all of the blame solely at them.

Such is the irrationality that is certain to follow when people base their stances entirely on EMOTION as opposed to REASON. Plus, it's always a lot easier to bitch and moan than to actually try and solve the problem.

[mike_c]

16. "Communist candidate of the far left"?!

Are you sure you're on the right discussion board? Did you perhaps mean to go to www.freerepublic.com?

[IrateCitizen]

17. Just goes to show that irrational reactionaries are bipartisan

Ralph Nader a communist? That one really DOES make me laugh!

[tom_paine]

27. People are mad, Chris. VERY mad.

Whatever else Ralph Nader is, he is currently standing foresquare against the continuance of Freedom and Liberty and the continued existance of the Old American Republic.

This is not hyperbole, it is fact. Nader aids Bush (one hopes indirectly, though I am not sure anymore) with his campaign efforts and that is a fact.

People have a right to be mad and curse his name. He could be a Communist, an Anarchist, a Bushevik, a Nazi and it wouldn't matter.

What does matter is that he aids Bush at every turn. Motivation is irrelevant in this case. Actions are all at this late date.

[IrateCitizen]

34. Halfway there, Tom...

What does matter is that he aids Bush at every turn. Motivation is irrelevant in this case. Actions are all at this late date.

Actually, I would say that it is rational, thought-out actions that are most needed at this point.

Are you, or have you ever been a fan of the "sweet science" of boxing, tom_paine? I grew up a big fan of the sport, back in the heyday of Marvelous Marvin Hagler, Sugar Ray Leonard and Thomas "Hitman" Hearns constantly fighting it out for the middleweight division. One thing I will always remember about boxing is that the moment a fighter allowed his anger to get the better of him, that fighter was going to go DOWN.

The key, you see, was to remain cool-headed and keep your emotions in check, so that you could focus on STRATEGY.

In this regard, things are no different in politics. Certainly, you have the right to be angry about all the things that Ralph Nader has done over the past few years. But at the same time, if one is truly interested in WINNING as opposed to simply pouring all their rage out on Ralph Nader, then they must be prepared to subjugate their anger to reason. Otherwise, the anger will cloud reason out, and you end up like the mad fighter flailing wildly until a well-landed left jab and right cross put you out on the canvas.

Additionally, I realize it's not popular in the midst of such anger, but to some of us words and definitions still matter. Demagoguery and hyperbole are useless tactics of reactionaries -- whether those reactionaries happen to have the (R) or (D) after their name.

[tom_paine]

49. Excellent analogy and a good point, too IC

Perhaps so.

[cprise]

44. OK, so lets avoid the draft.

Lets just have Kerry topple foreign governments on the cheap and let them fight it out over there amongst themselves. Hopefully the starvation and bloodshed won't be too severe.

[Touchdown]

46. I got part of your back.

I don't think he's a commie...but you're right otherwise. Youth sometimes votes for an idealist, well, idealistically and not knowing what the ramifications of voting for your "so full of hopes and idealism from our philosophy class that afternoon" will butt up against reality when Democracy destroys their idealism.

But, they're kids. Just like all kids, they have the idealism there, their hopes haven't been dashed like us older folks, and they'll eventually grow up, and realize that Democracy is all about compromise too...at least they're voting, which is a step in the right direction.

If a draft is coming, I fear there's very little Kerry is gong to be able to do about it. You can blame them for voting for Nader in 2000...which put all of us in this situation where a draft is likely in the first place.

[ulysses]

61. YEAH! Kill 'em all! No mercy!

Fucking kids! We know they're all rich anyway - just don't ask us how we know or we'll have to kill you too.

(snarl, grunt, chomp)

[BiggJawn]

18. Heyyyyy, KIDS! Vote for Ralph, get a letter from GEORGE!

One that starts out "From the President of the United States: Greetings!"

You said "Ralph is my MAN"? Next stop is Syria-Nam....

[klook]

22. How is voting for Nader different from an abstention? n/t

[BiggJawn]

31. it isn't.

Come to think of it, you have a point there.

OK, so I blame the Nader voters along with the other idiots who claim politics "makes their brains (WHAT brains?) hurt" and stay home....

Hey, I'm partisan, I'll admit it!
Vote for Kerry, or you might as well go pull the lever for Bush. That's how I see it, no appologies.

[cprise]

41. "Foreign affairs make my brain hurt" - Kerry supporters

What's the matter? Can't be bothered to think about the fact that Kerry voted wrong twice re: Iraq wars? Can't be bothered with his position on NAFTA? And then there are his lies about Venezuela and monetary support for the plutocratic opposition.

Kerry is bahaving a lot like an imperialist, and not a very good one.

[MSgt213]

21. Can somebody fill me in on this guy's point. I mean what is he attempting

to accomplish? Can't he understand that he has a much better chance of futhering his agenda if he convinced his follows to work with the democrats just as the Christian Right works with the Republican party..

[Jack_Dawson]

25. E-G-O

The male ego is a powerful animal. Do not fuck with it.

[klook]

38. Oh yeah, Nader's just a selfish egotist

• as a Princeton undergraduate, questioned the spraying of the pesticide DDT on campus;


• in the early 1960s challenged the safety of the Chevrolet Corvair and American cars in general;


• attracted waves of young activists to Washington as "Nader's Raiders," investigating government foot-dragging (starting with the Federal Trade Commission) and business fraud, and instigating reform in everything from water pollution to nursing-home abuse;


• led movements leading to the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act, the Consumer Product Safety Act, the Freedom of Information Act and many more;


• formed advocacy groups (more than 50 at last count) to oversee enforcement and lobby for more;


• vigorously opposed both the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) and the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT), maintaining they will undercut environmental and minimum wage standards in the United States;


• etc.

Yeah, Ralph Nader is just another selfish, egotistical jerk. Think how much better off we'd all be without him. :puke:

http://www.gpnj.org/nosale.html

[Jack_Dawson]

40. Good people go bad - it happens

Nobody said Nader hasn't done some good things. And everything you listed is past-tense.

[klook]

43. Not just past tense

Everything he's done continues to have lasting impact. See http://www.citizen.org/ for what he's up to now.

[Touchdown]

42. All 6 points, and it's still all about Ralph Nader.

Those are good causes that he fought for, and I'm sure that he's continuing to fight for these things when he's not pre-occupied with running for president.

But...if you think he wasn't putting himself in the spotlight at every step, grandstanding at every opportunity, injecting himself into every consumer/environmental movement that exists and taking credit for every discontinued car as a victory for himself, then you know Ralph Nader even less than the rest of us.

Like what was said E-G-O!

[klook]

55. So what?

Many great things are accomplished by egotists. I'd probably find Nader boring or insufferable if I hung out with him, but I certainly do appreciate his work.

And while you're bashing Nader, don't forget to discredit these other progressive candidates:

• Brian Baker Springfield of the Menorah-Thor party;


• Walter F. "Walt" Brown of the Socialist party;


• Jacques Yves "Chief Jack" Boulerice of the Native American party; and


• Christina Rosetti or any of several other Green Party candidates.

Or you could spend your time supporting marginal right-wing candidates like Sterling David Allan of the Providential party. That would be about as effective as railing against Nader.

[Touchdown]

59. I was responding to your smarmy retort to someone else.

Is this you?

"Yeah, Ralph Nader is just another selfish, egotistical jerk. "

I pointed out that his ego gets into everything he touches. You were poo-poohing the "EGO" angle, as if all his efforts were altruistic, and his passion is only for wellbeing for the rest of us, and he's going to die poor. I was pointing out that this line is a load of crap!

I didn't bash him, I didn't say he should drop out. I didn't say that he's a paid BushCo operative...so take your accusations and shove them into a Pinto's gas tank!:eyes:

Read the usernames on the top of the posts...you might find out that your assumptions of what some posters on this thread think are off base. Nobody is in lockstep here.

[klook]

75. Huh?

You were poo-poohing the "EGO" angle, as if all his efforts were altruistic, and his passion is only for wellbeing for the rest of us, and he's going to die poor.

And where exactly did I say these things? :tinfoilhat:

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Woodstock]

78. You forgot: enabled Bush to have 8 years in office

By my way of thinking, comparing the scale of death and destruction that will result, that wiped out all the rest.

Nader is a selfish egotist.

[Q]

36. Strange that Democrats...

...seldom dwell in a bit of introspection and wonder why Nader takes votes from their party. Nader...or the Greens for that matter...wouldn't exist if the Democratic party actually represented their base.

[noiretextatique]

47. stop talking crazy, Q

you know only democrats (and republicans...and those who take away votes from republicans) are 'entitled' to votes :eyes:

[IrateCitizen]

52. What is the Democratic "base", Q?

I ask this because I'm a die-hard progressive (in the spirit of Fighting Bob LaFollette and Paul Wellstone, not those pseudo-Republicans of the "Progressive" Policy Institute) and judging by the words of many of my brothers and sisters on the "left" I am left to wonder what the Democratic "base" truly is.

It certainly isn't made up of those people who repeatedly voice their inability to vote for John Kerry this fall over personal principle. It certainly isn't those people who are actively stating their intentions to vote for Ralph Nader this time around.

I'm also pretty certain that it's not those self-identified "Democrats" who are endorsing the PNAC strategy of regime change and endless war, either. But, for once, I would like somebody to give a true definition of what the Democratic "base" truly is -- just for my own curiosity, if nothing else.

[noiretextatique]

56. democrats seems to vying for the same base

as republicans...just the outer edges of it. remember what the DLC said after the 2002 mid-terms? i paraphrase: "Energizing the democratic base helps energize the Republican base." so...better to court the squishy, fickle middle and the fringe conservacrats instead. forget about traditional constituencies...they will vote D anyway, because they KNOW the other guys are so much worse...FOR THEM.

that's the way it works.

[ulysses]

62. I'll try my hand at that.

But, for once, I would like somebody to give a true definition of what the Democratic "base" truly is -- just for my own curiosity, if nothing else.

What I mean, at least, when I talk about the Democratic base is this: women and activists for women's rights, the destitute, the working poor, labor, African-Americans, social and economic justice advocates and traditional liberals. I'm likely forgetting one or two.

[Woodstock]

80. Q, to you Democrats are always this establishment figure

you can bash from a distance. Democrats are THEY. THEY let you down. You took your marbles and went home. If THEY try to please you enough for you to come back, maybe then you will. But until then, you will just tell everyone who listens how much they did you wrong.

Some of us see it differently. Some of us view THEM as US. We didn't go home. We stayed and fought for what we believe in. Like it or not, the reality is that a hell of a lot is at stake - people's very LIVES - and we see this as the only way to effect change in the near term.

I'M a Democrat, and I'm working hard to try to make things better from within the party. I know lots of people like me who are working hard for such things. There are lots of good Democratic representatives who are on the right track, too. I'm not going to leave them to fight the good fight alone. There are a lot more of us than there are the sellouts.

Yes, sometimes it seems the sellouts are getting their way, but that is the nature of the world - power corrupts, and it does this for the Green party and any other organization out there, no matter how good and just. Nader has certainly lost touch with the issues that used to matter to him - for him, it's all about ego now, as some of his closest former associates have said. Yes, even among the "good guys" power goes to their heads - or fear takes hold. But some of us choose to stay and fight rather than drop out.

You chose to drop out and point fingers, and that's your choice. But a LOT of us chose to stay and change the party from within. Nader is, by all statistical accounts, working against our goal of defeating Bush. I don't know about you, but I truly believe Bush's next 4 years will be multiples worse than the first 4 years. We ain't seen nothing yet. If we don't stop this NOW, the game might well be over - we don't have the luxury of waiting for THEM to please us.

[sendero]

64. I for one...

... will be glad when the moderators of this board, DEMOCRATIC Underground, will routinely delete threads about Nader - who is not only not a Democrat but is actively working against Democratic interests.

[DennisReveni]

72. What, getting elected?

deseo
... will be glad when the moderators of this board, DEMOCRATIC Underground, will routinely delete threads about Nader - who is not only not a Democrat but is actively working against Democratic interests.

Like what getting elected?
Nader is proworking class, proenvironment,prosocial safety net so on.
How come those are not Democrat interests?
http://www.safesearching.com/billmaher/print/t_hbo_realtime_030504.htm
"SMILEY: There's an old adage - there's an old adage, Bill, that says very simply, it's not what you call me, it's what I answer to. When you flip that, what you realize is that those of us who are left of center in our ideology have allowed the right to define the debate. We've allowed the right to define the terms. It's not that this country has become more conservative. It's that those of us who are left of center are a bunch of wimps, and we let them decide what these definitions are. And John Kerry is going to have to deal with Ralph Nader this time around as he should. With all due respect - with all due respect to Barbara Boxer and Terry McAuliffe, I'm glad Ralph Nader is in this race, because somebody--

MOORE: I gave him two thousand bucks!

SMILEY: Somebody - somebody has got to remind--

MOORE: I'm glad he's in the race.

SMILEY: Somebody has got to remind - you know, Karl Rove is happy, but I'm happy as well, because somebody has got to remind the Democrats what it means to stand up for those folks who are socially, politically, economically disenfranchised on the left, not run from the debate and define the terms."

[rocktivity]

65. Just tell the little brats they're about to get drafted

:headbang:
rocknation

[DennisReveni]

70. rocknation

By Kerry. He is calling for 40k new troops. How will he be getting these without a draft?

[DennisReveni]

69. HARRISON BERGERON

So, you people are bitching about a candidate who is pro working class, pro people, pro environment, anti corporate, wants ethics in politics, and has a soul.
And, it is Naders fault for being better that the Democrat or Republican.
Nader is the HARRISON BERGERON of American politics.
http://penguinppc.org/~hollis/personal/bergeron.shtml
"THE YEAR WAS 2081, and everybody was finally equal. They weren't only equal before God and the law. They were equal every which way. Nobody was smarter than anybody else. Nobody was better looking than anybody else. Nobody was stronger or quicker than anybody else. All this equality was due to the 211th, 212th, and 213th Amendments to the Constitution, and to the unceasing vigilance of agents of the United States Handicapper General."

""Even as I stand here" he bellowed, "crippled, hobbled, sickened - I am a greater ruler than any man who ever lived! Now watch me become what I can become!"

Harrison tore the straps of his handicap harness like wet tissue paper, tore straps guaranteed to support five thousand pounds.

Harrison's scrap-iron handicaps crashed to the floor.

Harrison thrust his thumbs under the bar of the padlock that secured his head harness. The bar snapped like celery. Harrison smashed his headphones and spectacles against the wall.

He flung away his rubber-ball nose, revealed a man that would have awed Thor, the god of thunder.

"I shall now select my Empress!" he said, looking down on the cowering people. "Let the first woman who dares rise to her feet claim her mate and her throne!"

A moment passed, and then a ballerina arose, swaying like a willow.

Harrison plucked the mental handicap from her ear, snapped off her physical handicaps with marvelous delicacy. Last of all he removed her mask.

She was blindingly beautiful.

"Now-" said Harrison, taking her hand, "shall we show the people the meaning of the word dance? Music!" he commanded. "

[dad]

73. Ralph Nader is like a saint coming down to earth to save us all

Real progressives love you, Ralph!

[Jack_Dawson]

74. Oy Vey

:eyes:

THIS is why Bush will win a 2nd term. They don't all agree with each other 100% of the time, but as a PARTY, they have discipline. Gotta hand it to them.