Interesting Counterpunch Article on Spain

[debsianben]

March 19, 2004

More Than a Dime's Worth of Difference...in Spain

Zapatero to Kerry: Back Off, Senator, Our Troops Are Coming Home

By JEFFREY ST. CLAIR

At the precise moment Bush's Iraq coalition began to show signs of some fatal fissures, John Kerry strode forth to do the president's bidding for him.

After the newly-elected Prime Minister of Spain, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, announced his intentions to pull out Spanish troops from Iraq, Kerry, anxious to prove that he can manhandle world leaders into compliance with US imperial objections with more efficiency than Bush, rushed in front of the cameras to demand that Zapatero reverse himself. Withdrawing Spanish troops now, Kerry chided, would send the wrong signal.

Wrong signal? And what signal is that? That there is more than a dime's worth of difference between Aznar and Zapatero on Iraq as opposed to the bloody harmony between Kerry and Bush? That politicians should keep their promises for at least a week?

Rest of the article at http://www.counterpunch.org/stclair03192004.html

[kaitykaity]

1. Counterpunch is starting to mean as much to me

as NewsMax. :yawn: The Democrats can do nothing right, and on and
on. Oh, well.

[cprise]

4. That makes your sigline pretty disingenuous

DNC Democrats consistently stab their European counterparts in the back. Spain just gained a new terrorist problem because Aznar simultaneously failed to focus on the spread of Al Queda sympathizers and aggravated them by going into Iraq. At least for the time being Kerry, should shut the f-ck up!!!

:grr: :grr: :grr:

[kaitykaity]

6. I didn't like Kerry way back when, don't care much for him

now. The Venezuela comments weren't high on my list, and this thing with Spain, if true, goes in that category. That said, bashing Kerry is doing Bush's work for him.

Counterpunch lost me with many, many "Clark is a War Criminal" articles.

On the sig line, it's from Friendly Fascism, a book by Bertram Gross, and I don't think it's disingenuous at all. I want to win, I know my enemy, and I think shouting from the fringe is counterproductive.

[debsianben]

5. No, it's not

Who claimed that Bush and Kerry are the same?
I sure didn't, and I don't think the author did either (although he did say there was less than a dimes' worth of difference on the specific issue of maintaining the occupation or Iraq.)

Responding by generally deriding the general (straw man) notion that "Bush and Kerry are the same" excuses you from responding to the substance of the specific issue at hand...because there is no response. Here's the "liberal" Kerry, in training for a bright future as POTUS, condescendingly lecturing and ordering around a foreign leader to break his election promise and continue to send Spanish soldiers off to die for oil profits, regional control and Haliburton reconstruction contracts.

The fact is that some polls show a majority of Americans supporting pull-out from Iraq "if more Amerian soldiers continue to die" (yes, I know its not even considered to be an option in the corproate media), so coming out with a strong stand for bringing the troops home to differentiate himself from Bush and give people a reason to vote might actually HELP him win.

[kaitykaity]

7. I have much more compelling questions than whether or

not Kerry will stand with Spain or try to be like Bush. Kerry is the face on the billboard to me. I just don't think that this sort of bashing is useful to us in the larger scheme of things. They may have good points to make, they may be spot on. But I've been burned by the site enough times to put them pretty low on my must-read list.

[jpgray]

2. An easy explanation: Kerry knows the US media well

They have 'misinterpreted' (read: obfuscated) Zapatero's plans into 'appeasement' and 'caving in' to terrorists. So in a very real sense, it has sent the wrong signal. :D

Of course, the other interpretation is that Kerry is just trying to show how 'tough on foreign policy' he is. Of course Counterpunch and the major media will both interpret this to his detriment--Kerry will get it in the stomach from the left, the right and the mainstream (which is basically the right) until the election is over. A good example: for the mainstream and the Republicans, he is extremely liberal. For the left, he is Bush-lite. So whatever your reason for disliking Kerry, you have plenty of ammo and plenty of people who will agree with you from every conceivable angle. :)

[bryant69]

3. Good old Bush and Kerry are the same tripe

I really don't see how Kerry could have done anythign differently than what he did.

Politically it would have been suicide to agree with Spains withdrawel of troops; it might have gratified a few of us at Democratic Underground but it would have looked terrible to the nation as a whole.

More to the point, it would have been terrible. I don't like Bush, I hope we get rid of him as soon as possible, but for the moment he is the president. He and his administration run our foreign policy. Do I think he is doing a good job? Hell no. But that doesn't give Kerry the right to start his own foreign policy before getting elected--and Kerry knows this.

The argument that we should pull out of Iraq immediately is an argument that civil war and a probable theocracy are the only possible future for Iraq (and there fore we shouldn't continue wasting our time there). That might be correct; I lack the power to tell the future. But if you believe that a peaceful transition to some sort of local rule is possible; well then our presense, and the presense of other troops is probably beneficial in preventing a civil war. I whole heartedly support coming up with a plan involving the United Nations to transfer control to the iraqis and get us out, but immediate abandonment isn't a viable option (unless of course you believe that there is no hope for a peaceful transition).

Bryant
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