Do the activists sometimes hurt the cause?

[nondeskript]

I was browsing pictures of protesters from the weekend and I began to wonder what the effect of the protests really is. What I'm really referring to is people wearing shirts that spell bush with a swastika, signs that spell Israel with a swastika (the irony of that boggles the mind), signs that say Bush = Hitler, signs saying "Death to America", signs with swastikas made of American flags, etc.

I guess it depends on the desired effect of the protests. If the goal is to simply show the media, Bush, Kerry and the rest of the world that there are Americans who don't like Bush and don't like the occupation of Iraq its effective. But if we hope to bring people who are centrists and moderates to our side, doesn't this kind of rhetoric and exaggeration turn more people off and cause people to distance themselves from us?

I admit that I believe these people to be in the minority, but that won't stop people like Limbaugh, Hannity, Savage, O'Reilly, etc from jumping all over these people and holding them up and representatives of the left as a whole.

-DW

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[prolesunited]

5. You have an amazing

radar!!!

:yourock"

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[prolesunited]

34. I wonder if

he's had an epiphany yet? ;-)

It's apparent some of the other people here haven't. :shrug:

[nondeskript]

9. Nope

I don't other than tuning in occasionally out of boredom. I work nights so none of those shows are usually options for me even if I did want to. Is my post there based on talking points or something?

Regardless, that does not address the questions that I posed in my post.

-DW

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

14. Your post is a talking point...nice try

[prolesunited]

2. You're right!

Let's institute dress codes and sign checks. We need to dilute our messages as much as possible and ensure uniformity at all protests. How dare we allow any creativity or free expression. Yes, let's all march in lockstep.

Or, better yet. We should all stay home next time so no one can criticize us.

I am soooo sick of people discrediting protests and criticizing protesters. I am not living my life in a manner that it appeases rightwing blowhards like Limbaugh and Savage. Short of mass suicides, NOTHING we would do would be acceptable to them.

[JohnLocke]

10. Strawman.

All he is saying is that sometimes protesters can go over the top, hurting the cause. He said nothing about instituting "dress codes" or "sign checks." Your sarcasm only serves to prove that he is right.

[prolesunited]

11. In what way

does my sarcasm prove him right?

[JohnLocke]

18. Your sarcasm proved that you have no true rebuttal.

[prolesunited]

30. No, my sarcasm

only proved that I didn't think this drivel merited any time or thought. :-)

fixed grammar

[JohnLocke]

36. Then don't post in this thread.

[prolesunited]

38. Umm...

I think I can post whatever I want in any thread I want.

[JohnLocke]

44. It's hypocritical for you to say that this doesn't merit your attention...

...and then go and post in in.
:wtf: :wtf:

[noiretextatique]

20. moderates and centrists

should organize their own protest. they should have dress codes (ties and jackets for men...tasteful pantsuits or dresses for women), and it make very, very well organized so their sanitized message can reach all those sanitized minds...just waiting to hear it and magically awaken :eyes:
i'm sure the press would be lined up to cover such a non-threatening protest...i'm just wondering when it will happen :eyes:

[JohnLocke]

24. No one is encouraging uniformity and sanitation.

All the poster did was remark that some activists go too far and there actions backfire.

[noiretextatique]

29. backfire?

please provide some evidence of this assertion, since the orginal poster didn't...thanks.

[JohnLocke]

33. Here you go.

Look at this disgusting neocon site happily putting up photos of protestors in order to prove we're all wackjobs:

http://users.lmi.net/zombie/sf_rally_march_20_2004/

[noiretextatique]

45. um...neocons and freepers

don't qualify as "moderates and centrists" imho. anything else? thanks.

[JohnLocke]

51. I'm saying...

Moderates and centrists will see this and will interpret it -- in fact, are encouraged to interpret it -- into a philosophy of "all liberals/anti-Bush people are wackjobs."

[noiretextatique]

i don't think you give moderates and centrists enough credit

people aren't THAT stupid...unless of course they want to be. that explains the freepers.

[JohnLocke]

57. Trust me, crap like this influences people.

We might not like it, but it does. People are gullible and prefer to generalize than do any real research.

[noiretextatique]

59. so WHAT?

if a photo will convince someone to vote for bush...we're in a lot more trouble than even a sanitized protest will assist in curing. this is much handwringing and ado about nothing...which happens after every, single protest.
i am REALLY waiting to see what a centrist/moderate organized protest would look like :eyes:

[ulysses]

74. heh

i am REALLY waiting to see what a centrist/moderate organized protest would look like

Perhaps we already have. :D

[noiretextatique]

81. indeed

a vast and immeasurable void of nothingness :boring:
yet these are the people protestors should be mindful of...it's a load of :hurts:

[ulysses]

86. it's just the

"we can't speak out or be different in any way" wing of the party. One fully suspects that the anti-protest misgivings would be exactly the same if folks were coming out in suits and wingtips and holding signs like "Bush is being sort of mean!" and "Gee, this is getting a little scary!".

[noiretextatique]

100. LMAO...."bush is being sort of mean, doncha think?"

don't forget to add that question on the end...it signals you're seeking permission and approval :hi:

[HFishbine]

49. How about a little common sense

"I love NY Even More Without the WTC?" Ask yourself, who does this message serve? Does it come even the least bit close to the sentiments of the anti-war crowd or is it more likely a freeper trying to cast a bad light? I know my answer.

Many of the other photos are quite compelling.

[noiretextatique]

53. people who want to discredit the protest will find the most shocking

and controversial photos and slogans to post.

[JohnLocke]

61. True. See post #46.

[corporatewhore]

84. oh so palestinian rights people and socialists shouldnt be allowed because

it migh look bad.whatever

[nondeskript]

97. Another straw man?

I didn't complain about the Palestinian supporters or the socialists or even the communists. The only ones offended by that are neo-cons.

-DW

[noiretextatique]

101. are you saying you are a neo-con?

:shrug: what's the point of your post...if not to complain?

[dpibel]

93. Damn! Guess we lost those votes.

Let me see do I get this straight. You have found a neocon freeper-style website which has posted pictures of dangerously outrageous protestors. I see only two ways in which you can feel this is significant:

1. You believe that, but for those awful pictures, the denizens of this website would have seen the gentle light of moderation and voted Democrat; or

2. You believe that the average American moderate voter seeks out disgusting neocon websites for their news about protests.

If there is a third possibility, do fill me in, because I am otherwise pretty puzzled, since I think neither of the readings I suggest is terribly convincing.

[nondeskript]

96. Well...

The only reason that I ever saw those pictures is because there were linked of off a few blogs that I've browsed. So 3 would be that these pictures spread on the internet like a virus casting the left in a negative light due to their vile content.

Also let me point out that most of the pictures on the site were not anything that anyone but a neocon would get worked up about. The scarves, Palestinian flags, 9-11 commission pictures are all things of a "so what" variety that would only offend a neo-con.

But there are several on there that are vile or offensive to the sense of the common person.

-DW

[nondeskript]

12. Ah the ever popular straw man

Never did I say that there should be some enforced conformity at protests. I merely make the point that some of the "creativity" does more harm than good.

-DW

[prolesunited]

42. And exactly what would be the solution?

:shrug:

[JohnLocke]

55. We can't really do much about it.

And neither should we. People should be aware, however, that some of the stupid crap some people are pushing can hurt the liberal cause.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

4. What country were these people in?

Protests took place all over the world.

[nondeskript]

15. From the West Coast

The pictures I saw were from San Francisco's "Global Day of Action" protests.

-DW

[DrWeird]

27. You mean the signs that have obviously been photoshopped?

By lying freepers?

[nondeskript]

39. Obviously photoshopped?

I'll accept the possibility that some of them may have been photoshopped, but all of them? I sincerely doubt it.

-DW

[tishaLA]

31. Well, We call those people

"moderates" here in California.

Have a happy day.

[noiretextatique]

6. where are the centrists and moderates?

perhaps if they got off their asses...

[kiahzero]

73. They're scared to come out to protests

Because of people like the Black Bloc, or the some of the more extremist people. Hell, I left an anti-Iraq-War protest because I wasn't comfortable with the people there, and I'm hardly a "moderate" anywhere but DU.

[noiretextatique]

82. they just DON'T protest

end of story. it's really not that deep...

[NormanConquest]

7. "Be quiet and look to the future"

a la Baba Bowtie Carlson yesterday on Xfire. They always know what's best for us, don't they?

[leftyandproud]

8. Yes!

I saw some pics of the protests over the weekend...most were more anti-Bush than anti Iraq. I think we should focus more about the policies that we hate, not the puppet who orders them. Really, when you compare the Freeper reallies to ours, as stupid as their people are..the rallies DO look very happy/patriotic. I know some folks here call it jingoism and blind love for the USA yadda yadda yadda...but really...seeing a bunch of USA flags waving and people chanting God Bless the USA...We will prevail over terrorism...Support America and our troops...Down with Al-queda!, etc etc...It always looks better than people flying the UN flag, or the USA flag hanging upside down or defaced in some way, along with signs saying "Bush sucks..Illegal war!...America = Imperialist...Death to Capitalism...Socialism now...We stand with our Islamic brothers, etc" Remember the pic of a rally a few months bag with a bunch of people carrying the "WE SUPPORT OUR TROOPS (when they shoot their officers)" sign?...Stuff like that really hurts us. I actually saw a pic on yahoo of a guy with a holding a big sign in front of him that said "I LOVE NEW YORK"..and underneath ("even more WITHOUT the twin towers")

That sort of shit just takes it too far. I don't care how anti-capitalist you are...or how passionate you disagree with the USA policies...Sometimes, you just need to keep these things to yourself. Those buildings may have been the pillars of capitalism but you don't cheer at their collapse. Unfortunately, we do have quite a few on our side that do this sort of thing and aren't afraid to let it all hang out.

Yes, it hurts the cause.

[G_j]

23. BS

nobody could bring a sign like that to the protests, they would be completely shunned. Photo most likely a fake....

[prolesunited]

25. Hey, feel free

to come out and join us with your happy/patriotic friends and sing God Bless America. What's stopping you? :shrug:

"Sometimes, you just need to keep these things to yourself" <-- Reminds me of the vets who chide the anti-war protesters, saying in essence, "We died for your rights — just don't use them."

Or perhaps it's more like you're channeling Ari Fleisher: "There are reminders to all Americans that they need to watch what they do, and this is not a time for remarks like that; there never is."

[JohnLocke]

28. Again, you create a strawman.

You equate having some sense (e.g., not comparing bush to Hitler, cheering the death of Americas, etc.) to mindless uniformity and unquestioning support. It's not an either/or situation. :eyes:

[nondeskript]

26. Thank you

Someone who saw what I was getting at. I don't know that there is anything that WE can do about it other than talking to those people and asking them to maybe relax a little bit.

Criticisms of Bush have a good chance of connecting with the public. Comparing Bush to Hitler doesn't. It shows a complete lack of historical reference. Bush's march to war isn't really comparable to the freakin' Holocaust. Hell, Ari Fleischer was Bush's press secretary. Hitler would never have had a Jew as a mouthpiece :)

What I'm saying is that we can criticize the Bush, his policies, his chicken-hawkishness, his war lust, his poor domestic policies, his Nixonian stonewalling, etc without getting into rhetoric so hateful that it causes people to ignore everything we have to say.

-DW

[Minstrel Boy]

48. "Bush's march to war isn't really comparable to the freakin' Holocaust"

Of course not.

But Bush's march to war is quite comparable to Hitler's march to war. Hence the comparison.

As for the Holocaust, stay tuned.

Bush-Hitler: A Holocaust Survivor Speaks Out

So far, I've seen nothing to eliminate the possibility that Bush is on the same course as Hitler. And I've seen far too many analogies to dismiss the possibility. The propaganda. The lies. The rhetoric. The nationalism. The flag waving. The pretext of 'preventive war'. The flaunting of international law and international standards of justice. The disappearances of 'undesirable' aliens. The threats against protesters. The invasion of a non-threatening sovereign nation. The occupation of a hostile country. The promises of prosperity and security. The spying on ordinary citizens. The incitement to spy on one's neighbors - and report them to the government. The arrogant triumphant pride in military conquest. The honoring of soldiers. The tributes to 'fallen warriors. The diversion of money to the military. The demonization of government appointed 'enemies'. The establishment of 'Homeland Security'. The dehumanization of 'foreigners'. The total lack of interest in the victims of government policy. The incarceration of the poor and mentally ill. The growing prosperity from military ventures. The illusion of 'goodness' and primacy. The new einsatzgrupen forces. Assassination teams. Closed extralegal internment camps. The militarization of domestic police. Media blackout of non-approved issues. Blacklisting of protesters - including the no-fly lists and photographing dissenters at rallies.

There isn't much doubt in my mind - anyone who compares the history of Hitler's rise to power and the progression of recent events in the US cannot avoid the parallels. It's incontrovertible. Is Bush another Hitler? Maybe not, but with each incriminating event, the parallel grows -it certainly cannot be dismissed. There's too much evidence already. Just as Hitler used American tactics to plan and execute his reign, it looks as if Karl Rove is reading Hitler's playbook to plan world domination - and that is the stated intent of both. From the Reichstag fire to the landing at Nuremberg to the motto of "Gott Mit Uns" to the unprovoked invasion and occupation of Iraq to the insistence that peace was the ultimate goal, the line is unbroken and unwavering.

I'm afraid now, that what may still come to pass is a reign far more savage and barbaric than that of the Nazis. Already, appeasement has been fruitless - it only encourages the brazen to escalate their arrogance and braggadocio. Americans support Bush - by a generous majority - and mass media sings his praises while indicting his detractors - or silencing their opinions completely. The American people seem to care only about the domestic economic situation - and even in that, they are in complete denial. They don't want to hear about Iraq, and Afghanistan is already forgotten. Even the Democratic opposition supports the occupation of Iraq. Everyone seems to agree that Saddam Hussein deserves to be executed -with or without a trial. 'Visitors' are fingerprinted. Guilty until proven innocent. Snipers are on New York City rooftops. When do the Stryker teams start appearing on American streets? They're perfectly suited for 'Homeland Security' - and they've had a trial run in Iraq. The Constitution has been suspended - until further notice. Dick Cheney just mentioned it may be for decades - even a generation, as Rice asserts as well. Is this the start of the 1000 year reign of this new collection of thugs? So it would seem.

http://truthout.org/docs_04/010904A.shtml

[nondeskript]

63. Well a few Hitler differences...

Hitler made sure people had jobs (making weapons of war). Hitler wasn't placed into power by the Judiciary. Hitler was charismatic. And Bush will never be able to install himself in power for life like Hitler. If he's not gone next January, he's gone in 4 years.

-DW

[dpibel]

92. This is a joke, right?

I mean, if it's not a joke, you left off some other pretty crucial differences. Hitler had black hair, Boosh's is kinda brown. Hitler spoke German, Boosh (sort of) speaks English. Hitler was never married, Boosh is nominally married.

Why! The list is almost endless! Nothing like Hitler at all!!

Oh. You were serious.

Well, then.

You say: "Hitler made sure people had jobs (making weapons of war)."

So in this respect, I guess, you would argue that Hitler was actually superior to Boosh? Right?

Then you say: "Hitler wasn't placed into power by the Judiciary."

Which means exactly what? What does that have to do with his essential "Hitlerness." You could argue that both came to power as the result of coup-like shenanigans, so I don't really see the distinction here. Both made a perfect mockery of democracy.

And then you say: "Hitler was charismatic."

Now I freely confess that I have always found Boosh utterly revolting. But try saying that around one of the (tragically) many people who seem honestly to believe Boosh is the second coming of Franklin Winston Jesus. There are a lot of Americans who just find the guy irresistible, sort of like their good ol' Uncle Bob: "He ain't too bright, but he's a barrel of laughs 'n he's got a good heart."

Finally, you say: "And Bush will never be able to install himself in power for life like Hitler. If he's not gone next January, he's gone in 4 years."

Would that I shared your certainty. The most remarkable thing to me about Boosh and his handlers is their utterly ruthless will to power. We saw just a taste of it in the failed 2000 election. Everything they've done since has been directed at consolidating wealth and power. What makes you think they'd let a little thing like the constitution stand in the way of their god-ordained march to glory.

As soon as anyone points out the obvious parallels between Boosh's basic direction and the way Hitler operated, people immediately cry, "Holocaust!! How dare you?" As someone else pointed out, Hitler didn't start as "Hitler." He was America's peachy brother for years. It makes no sense to compare Hitler at the end of WWII to Boosh right now.

Make the right comparison: Hitler and Boosh at similar stages of their march to destruction.

[nondeskript]

94. Yes it was a joke

I thought that would be understood.

But calling Bush Hitler is loaded and you and anyone who does it knows that. The first thing that the name Hitler evokes is the Holocaust. Saying that Bush is morally equivalent to Hitler, a man responsible for the death of 6 MILLION Jews is disgusting, honestly.

There are good reasons to dislike Bush and valid ways to criticize him that do not equate what Bush has done with the attempted GENOCIDE of the Jewish race. But I am realizing that there are people out there on the left, just like the sleaze balls like Saxby Chambliss and Karl Rove on the right, who will say anything to tar their opponents. I'm sorry for bringing it up.

-DW

[dpibel]

98. Fine, it was a joke. But:

Did you actually read my whole post?

Hitler did not start with the Holocaust.

That thing about "those who don't learn from history"? That means the whole history, not just isolated parts.

[LeahMira]

50. Agree, sort of.

I saw some pics of the protests over the weekend...most were more anti-Bush than anti Iraq. I think we should focus more about the policies that we hate, not the puppet who orders them.

Whenever there is a protest, it seems that a lot of fringe issues are represented, i.e. "Free Mumia." I think that in some ways it's good that people who have so many different concerns can all come together to oppose the occupation of Iraq and to demand that American troops come home, and I really don't mind the fact that they include their concerns as well. At the same time, there are some people who seem to be stepping over the line of good taste, to say the least. I might prefer D.C. without the Pentagon, but not at the cost of lives lost. At the same time, remembering the FReeper poster about "Trust Bush, Trust Jesus" with the missiles and such, I really don't think the anti-Bush protests have much to worry about. One thing is true, though. We tend to forget what the FReepers do that is in bad taste, while they never forget what "liberals" do. Those who have saved pictures of some of them and their antics need to throw those pictures right back at them when they show the ladies with the colorful spiked hair. Also, flying the flag upside down is a sign of distress. That certainly seems appropriate to me for last Saturday's protests.

[G_j]

16. and what cause are you referring to ? n/t

[JohnLocke]

19. Any cause.

[G_j]

37. well yea they hurt Bush's cause, good point! n/t

[JohnLocke]

46. The vast majority of protesters did hurt Bush.

And to them I give a hearty :yourock:. But there are a few -- either wackjobs or misguided -- that go over the top. These are the ones who hurt us far more than they hurt Bush.

[G_j]

60. as bad as the media can be

all the coverage I saw showed crowds that appeared to be cross sections of everyday people carrying themselves in a dignified manner for a protest. Talk about red herrings. So what sre you folks worrying about?

[nondeskript]

35. Any number of causes

Defeating Bush in Nov, causing a reanalysis of foreign policy and preventing further pre-emptive invasions, causing a reanalysis of policy towards Israel and Palestine, preventing abuses of labor and the lower class, etc etc.

-DW

[G_j]

43. now I see

stay home and draw conclusions from some bogus and selective pictures circulated by freepers.

[Az]

17. Of course

Even the best intentions can often go wrong. You do not build a bridge by throwing sticks at the water. You have to have some sense of what you hope to accompish and wisely choose the tactics to achieve these hopes. Blind activism can do far more harm than good.

[Another Bill C.]

21. You're right.

If you merely want to get in the other side's face, then anything goes.

If you are trying to sell a point, then you present an appearance that encourages those people you are trying to sell to "open the door."

The first method will allow four years of being able to say, "we sure showed them" while enjoying the second Bush term.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[G_j]

32. re: morans

don't you recognise a set up when you see one??? :shrug:

hook line and sinker

[rucky]

54. gee I feel stoopid now

:wtf: Um, yeah...I guess that sign helps the freeper cause.

[G_j]

70. first you have to believe

that photo is untouched and was taken at the SF protest. I don't,
because a person holding a sign with that message (about the WTC)would be no more welcome than a freeper. It doesn't wash.

[derby378]

40. My take

One of the protest signs I took to Crawford this past Saturday had the following Chumbawamba lyrics on it:

If any ask us why we died
We tell them that our leaders lied
Sold us out down the riverside
Whose side are you on?

The lyrics framed that picture of American military coffins on a C-130 transport that many of us are now familiar with.

I wanted a simple message, short but elegant, that addressed one of the central debates over Iraq. At the Crawford rally, however, people wore shirts, carried signs, and sang about Israeli human rights abuses against Palestinians, Coca-Cola's alleged ties to the AUC death squads in Columbia, the push for implementing NESARA, and so on.

I might have wanted a little more focus on the "pre-emptive self-defense initiative" that brought us all down to Crawford in the first place, but dammit, this is America. We've got issues we're passionate about and should have the right to discuss them.

Crawford wasn't a free-for-all, however. The marchers and speakers all dealt admirably with the Iraq fiasco, and I respect the whole lot for it. Yes, even the Socialists and the one Republican brave enough to step up to the mic.

[nondeskript]

56. See thats great

Thats a sign that attacks Bush, the Republicans, nails the point and won't offend people with common sense. It has a good potential of connecting with people that see it and causing them to question their support of bush and push them away from the republicans.

-DW

[camero]

41. The militant ones

Can hurt any cause. Any activist cause can overreach when the main battles are won.

Edit: Sugar low, brb.

[devilgrrl]

47. Yes, stupid right-wing asshole activists hurt the cause

[derby378]

52. ROFL!

The libaration of the morans has beeguhn...

[rinsd]

58. Doesn't matter.....

A few signs that went over the top are no big deal especially at these protests.

I actually thought this was going to be another PETA thread. There you may have a stronger case that outrageous publicity may not be a means to an end.

[prolesunited]

62. You know, I though about it

and you're correct. Sometimes activists DO hurt the cause. I even found some evidence of it for you. See:

[nondeskript]

64. Stupid Conservatives

I agree. I wish these idiots would get out there more often :) If the American populace saw these hateful pieces of garbage more, I believe it would push more of them away from that point of view.

I didn't mean to imply that protesters going to far and turning people off was unique to our side. It just doesn't bother me when the right shoots themselves in the foot. Hell, I wish they'd do it every weekend, then no one short of a small minority of hate-mongers like Mike Savage would be left on the right.

-DW

[Logansquare]

65. I agree with you, up to a point.

I've been at marches and felt embarrassed by a minority of my fellow protestors. I mean, what kind of message are you sending with a "Lick Bush" sign other than "I think like a 12-year-old?" It doesn't help change minds or present your case to someone in a powerful and dignified way. Women in Black is a group that expresses their political views in a clear, dignified, and powerful manner.
If you think I'm wrong, then count how many people have become "pro-life" after seeing signs bearing pictures of bloody fetuses. The anti-abortion movement constantly drives people away with this message.

However, I agree with the other posters in that you can't enforce the behavior or message sent out by others during a protest. If someone next to me wants to goof around in a way that makes their message less effective, then there's not much I can do about it other then make sure I'm photographed next to WIB instead of the dope with the rainbow wig.

[Misinformed01]

68. I understand his point also

I didn't see any "out there" protesters in Asheville on Saturday; there was one speaker...a young man of about 20....that was trying to justify his decision not to vote in the next election to the crowd of about 800 or so---I didn't think he was "hurting the cause" as much as I thought he was just immature.

But, I also have seen some photos of protesters and wondered if they were more interested in street theatre than they were protesting.

However, when you get crowds that big...you have to assume that you aren't going to agree with every message you read, or every costume you see.

btw....while I think I understand why you chose to post your thoughts; criticizing DUers about protesters is not going to go over very well. It doesn't matter what you say or how you say it---your point is not going to be taken--just because you are on the left side of the fence on this website, does NOT mean that you are dealing with open minded people.

Steph

[corporatewhore]

88. yay Women in Black !!! i stand with the ladies in austin! but then again

[ulysses]

66. not everything is done to massage the moderates.

If a few outspoken progressives and counterculture folks are enough to terrify them into voting for Bush, they should get out more.

I'll say it again: if people don't like what anti-Bush protests look like, then they need to bring their "normal-looking" asses out and hold up a sign that says "Bush is not a very nice man" or some such. The sniping from the sidelines is ridiculous.

[prolesunited]

67. And did you notice that there appears

to be a pattern here? After every single protest, the people who got up of their dead asses and out into the streets is greeted with criticism and derision by people sitting there typing from the comfort of their keyboards.

It really is starting to make me angry, thus, my sarcastic tone throughout this thread.

I definitely do NOT agree with every sign or every word that is uttered, but the fact is we are defending the right for people to continue to say stupid crap — on both the left and the right. Let the marketplace of ideas sort it out.

[ulysses]

69. oh, of course.

I've long since stopped being surprised at it. They're the same folks who demand an inclusive party whenever Dem centrism starts taking fire, too.

[nondeskript]

71. Apparently I'm not being understood by you

I'm not attempting to criticize ALL protesters. I'm not saying that people should hold protests and rallies. I'm not trying to deride those that do. But I do appreciate the way you seem to be putting those words in my mouth.

I am merely trying to have a discussion about how the extremists on the left can damage the message of the left. I'm sorry if its not okay to be critical of people on this website. I didn't realize that I had to tow the line to fit in here. Thanks for setting me straight. I'll get right in line here as quick as I can and become another "I agree, stick it to 'em" guy. Lord knows the DU doesn't have enough of those.

-DW

[ulysses]

72. oh, boo hoo.

I'm sorry if its not okay to be critical of people on this website.

Of course it is. It's also ok for them to be critical of you in return.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

76. snicker

It's usually people being taken to task for what they say that claim that isn't it?

[ulysses]

77. "jeez, I can't have an open conversation with you freaks"

About what it's like, no? :)

:hi:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

78. It's OK Uly, after the bruising I have taken lately

anyone who appears to make me appear less centrist is probably a Valentine :D

[ulysses]

79. from whom?

I'll kick their ass with Skittles' foot. :)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

75. How about a link to a sign by an American protestor that says

"Death to America" ..since you claim one said that in your original post, I would like to see it....I believe you may have seen that sign in a foreign protest..I have attended several and never seen one in Los Angeles.

YOu may want to go back and reread your opening post as it really doesn't make the distinction you now claim to be making.

I was browsing pictures of protesters from the weekend and I began to wonder what the effect of the protests really is. What I'm really referring to is people wearing shirts that spell bush with a swastika, signs that spell Israel with a swastika (the irony of that boggles the mind), signs that say Bush = Hitler, signs saying "Death to America", signs with swastikas made of American flags, etc.

Since you state you were browsing pictures, i assume there must be a link to a protest pic in America saying that.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

80. I saw those on my evening news: they were showing protests from Egypt,

Australia, Japan, and Germany. There were anti-American signs at all these protests (couldn't read the Japanese ones!), and in Cairo they burned the American flag and effigies of Bush.

The original poster definitely did not see those images here. I too am a veteran of protests, and while I don't always agree with the agendas of International Answer and the free Mumia crowd, they have every right to express themselves the way they want.

If the Americans that they original poster mentioned are freaked out by a little patchouli and long hair, then they weren't going to vote for our candidate anyway.

[nondeskript]

95. Look up

A link to this was posted earlier in the thread by someone else.

-DW

[Q]

83. I predict a future...

...of a hobnail boot on your neck. I hope you love working with the brownshirts.

[corporatewhore]

85. if i cant dance hold signs that express my feelings or dress differently

iwant no part of your cause

[diamond14]

87. Veterans and Military Families are clear....bush* = hitler...they KNOW....

are you claiming that OUR Veterans and OUR soldiers families are radical? these people are front line in calling bush* a liar, and comparing bush* to hitler...they know....OUR Veterans walked proudly in NYC, Veterans from WW1, WW2, GW1, Korea, Vietnam, and more....and it was VETERANS who held signs encouraging troops to abandon the war, and frag their officers....which is EXACTLY what happened in Vietnam....if you wake up even a little, you might realize that these PRO-PEACE people are simply average middle-class Americans, voters, your neighbors, people who served very honorable for America's military....these are America's heros, and teachers, and firefighters, and medical doctors, and all the average, caring community-oriented American Patriots, who are SICK and tired of the bush* all-war-all-the-time-everywhere policy...we are all sick of bush* insanity....



Lots more photos from March 20th...all over the USA...Veterans for PEACE....
http://www.veteransforpeace.org/March_20_2004_VFP_report.htm

[aQuArius]

89. If it weren't for protesters...

No one would have a f***ing clue that a VAST majority of Americans are absolutely repulsed by the illegal war that has been taking place in Iraq. These people are NOT the minority WHATSOEVER, these people actually get off their asses and do SOMETHING damn it! I would've been there myself shouting as lous as I could if it hadn't been for a previous engagement, yet I still feel guilt I wasn't there. So don't stand on your self-rightous box and tell us we are the minority. Just watch Bush go down in Novemeber and see who the f***ing minority is!!!

[Duncan Grant]

90. No. (eom)

[carols]

91. The freepers et al are laughing because they are scared to fucking death

It's the same mentality that produces racist jokes. They don't know how to deal with diversity and the richness of human expression, so they laugh at it. Let them. They are dying inside and are too stupid to realize that they are missing out on the joy of humanity and of common struggle.

Here is what I have seen when I have been to large demonstrations:
Quakers
Black Bloc
Code Pink
ACLU
Nuns
South Korean Student activists
Native American Activists
NAACP
Rainbow-PUSH
National Lawyers Guild
Gush Shalom
Pax-Christi
Young parents with babies in strollers
Raging Grannies
Radical Queer Bloc
Muslim groups
Labor Unions

Marching together - peacefully. Fancy that.
Carol

[WEagle]

99. A Question for you nondeskript,

could you tell me where you were "browsing pictures of protesters from the weekend"? Do you have a link?

[Qutzupalotl]

102. Occasionally infiltrators will try to incite a riot.

PBS' Now with Bill Moyers did a story on that a couple of weeks ago. It seems cops are looking to lock up protesters even when they're ordinarily peaceful. A sting operation, if you will, to see if they can entice people to break some law.

If you're planning a local protest and someone at your meeting is trying a little too hard to get people to do something stupid (i.e., smashing windows, tagging, etc.), try asking them, "Have you ever worked for any government agency?"

[eleny]

103. Pfui

Now shut up and go away.

[dryan]

104. Nondescript has a point

Often times groups that have nothing to do with the larger issue show up at protests and rallys. Unfortunately, the media 9 times out of 10 gravitate to these groups and they receive the lionsshare of the publicity. Case in point: in 2002 the AFL-CIO had a very organized event held during the last gubenitorial debate between Bill McBride and jeb bush at UCF. Tim Russert was the moderator (not one of his best efforts but I degress). Anyway, the President of the AFL-CIO here in Orange County did a magnificent job of organizing signs, PR, fliers, T-shirts, and even food for the pre-debate rally and the viewing party. Over 500 union participated. Who got the media coverage -- in the local newspaper and on all 4 TV stations! A group of people that just appeared to protest a side issue! Debra Booth from the AFL-CIO even gave a 5 minute interview which didn't make it on TV but there was an interview with one of the people from this other group.

PS - When we hand out fliers against Mt. Olive Pickles (done monthly at various area grocery stores -- particularly Publix -- for almost 5 years -- we always dress nicely.

[enki23]

105. obviously. but...

without them, there wouldn't really *be* a cause.