List of political prisoners and missing persons in Chavez's Venezuela

[Sanity]

Read it and weep. Support John Kerry and don't let the wacky fringes of this party convince you that supporting thug dictators is a good thing for Democrats. Because if you guys do, George Bush will undoubtedly win in a landslide.

http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200403020624

[rumguy]

1. Also remember Pinochet - propped up by the rethugs....thousands

killed buried in mass graves...

[Sanity]

2. I remember Pinochet. That bastard should've rotted in the Hague

I believe it was Thatcher who was whining about how old and frail he was.

Ususally I do support the defendant being fit to stand trial, but in this case I could care less.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[radwriter0555]

4. oh yeah? guess who owns your clever little site? things are not ALWAYS

what they seem...

http://www.vcrisis.com = < 216.92.29.51 >
Register Now at http://www.pairNIC.com/
Registrant:
proveo
9 cleveland court
cleveland street
london W1T6NH
GB
[e-mail]
44.2073870189
Domain Name: VCRISIS.COM
Administrative & Technical Contact:
Adrian Bonet
carretera el Hatillo la Union
Caracas DF 1080-A
VE
[e-mail]
1.58029611321
Domain Name Servers:
NS0000.NS0.COM
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Created: November 3 2002
Modified: October 7 2003
Expires: November 3 2004
Register Now at http://www.pairNIC.com/


You DO know that aleksander boyd is a CIA spook, right?

[Judi Lynn]

82. Here's all you can learn in the "about" section at proveo:

ProVeO is an NGO registered in London, UK (English Companies House Certificate of Incorporation number 4706973) with 1.834 members present in 55+ countries worldwide. We are also members of the Coalition for the International Criminal Court. ProVeO has coordinated and organized events at a local and international scale, teaming up with other Venezuelan associations. We were in charge of the petition drive in the UK and the redistribution of the signatures collected in Europe and the recent signature collection drive. We have teamed up with Venezuelan human rights organizations and have been actively lobbying international bodies in our intent to promote a peaceful, democratic resolution to our conflict and raise awareness about the abuses of Hugo Chavez and his regime.

Aleksander Boyd.
Founder and Director

http://www.proveo.org/index.php?lang=en

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Boasting of their "1.834 members!" That many! My, my. Impressive.
They may all be receiving checks from NED, as well. Just think of them as "our employees" who have turned against our interests.

[htuttle]

5. What is your point?

When someone comes here and starts posting articles about how 'bad' some foreign leader or other is alleged to be, anyone with half a brain assumes they have an agenda.

So what is yours?

Are you saying that we should support the use of US tax dollars to overthrow a democratically elected regime?

What IS your point?

And don't say, "I'm just saying that Chavez is bad," cause that's a bullshit explanation. Nobody goes to the trouble just to say some world leader is 'bad'. There is always a reason they are saying it -- almost always to gather support for military action, covert action, etc...

Are we supposed to separate the world's regimes into 'good' and 'bad'? 'With us' or 'against us'? Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Leads to nothing but pain, death and war.

We don't vote in the Venezuelan elections. What authority do you feel we possess to say how things should be in Venezeula?

[radwriter0555]

8. Don't worry, this boyd freak is nothing more than a paid CIA operative

who posts ONLY in opposition of Chavez.

He has a specific agenda and a specific persona for this endeavor. his disinformation is totally bogus and false.

[hang a left]

10. I already got alerted on this thread.

Look for a message deleted coming to a post near you.

[Sanity]

11. The people of Venezuela want Chavez gone, not US tax dollars

How democratic is it to cancel a constitutionally authorized election just because you probably will lose?

Gray Davis did not try to overly "validate" the signatures in the petition to recall nor did Evan Mecham of Arizona refuse to step down when he was impeached.

I don't support a US funded coup, but if a democratic regime change is going to happen, which is the case now, the US should not stop it.

[Classical_Liberal]

13. He didn't cancel any democratic elections

The coup plotters who run that website tried to cancel his democratic election 2 yrs ago.

[htuttle]

14. I haven't heard ANY US official EVER suggesting that the US...

...intervene to stop a so-called 'democratic regime change' in Venezuela (btw, here in the US we usually call those things 'elections', but I doubt that is what you are talking about).

What I'm saying is how does it make a rat's ass worth of difference to US citizens how Venezuela runs their elections? After 2000, and with the onset of 'touch screen voting', I think we have enough problems to deal with on our own elections, don't you?

We are also SUPPOSED to be responsible for getting elections going in both Afghanistan and Iraq. We're still paying the bill, in money and in lives, for both those efforts. And we're doing a damned crappy job of it, I might add.

What relevance does the Venezuelan electoral process have in light of these still-unfulfilled responsibilities of our own?

And if the US is still funding an effort to launch a coup in Venezuela, you would be against that, I'd assume from your statement? Were you against the last one, also funded by the US?

But hey, if we are going to talk coups, I'd personally like to see a counter-coup in Myanmar (nee Burma) to return it's democratically elected leader to power. I doubt that will happen until the Bush campaign stops buying their 'Bush/Cheney' fleece pullovers from there, however.

[Sanity]

42. That is what I'm talking about

Democratic regime change can happen through recall elections too. Actually, that's the only way it can happen.

[AP]

17. Who's cancelling an election?

[Sanity]

43. Chavez's administration

He's using Republican type tactics to prevent a vote.

[ParanoidPat]

45. Got a Link to that? LOL!

:evilgrin: ;-) Don't forget we'll be pointing out who your source really is!

[Sanity]

46. I'll give you a link to that from the Washington Post

but you'll probably say they're part of the evil conspiracy to bring down Chavez.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A24347-2004Mar2¬Found=true

edit: I guess the Carter Center is also in on this conspiracy.

Prodded by the Organization of American States and the U.S.-based Carter Center, the government and the opposition agreed in May on ground rules for an eventual recall referendum.

But electoral authorities continued to delay an announcement on whether the recall effort could go ahead. The opposition charges that the elections council belatedly changed the rules to disqualify hundreds of thousands of signatures on petitions delivered in December.

Still, the OAS, the Carter Center, Argentina, Brazil and other countries have urged Venezuela to overlook glitches and respect the apparent will of voters. Chavez, reelected to a six-year term in 2000, rejected their pleas as foreign interference and insisted that the petition was ridden with fraud.

[ParanoidPat]

49. First off, from your linked article.....

....." The council said that voters whose signatures were under dispute would have from March 18 to March 22 to report to voting centers to confirm that they indeed had signed the petition."

It appears to me that the signature verification is still ongoing, or did you miss that? :shrug:
Doesn't look as if anything has been stopped.

Now on to ol' Jimmy, FUCK HIM! If he cared at all about 'fair elections' he'd be doing something about elections in his own state of Georgia! He has NO credibility with me whatsoever! :evilgrin:

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AP]

62. The Carter center has only commented on violence and NOT on the recall.

First, the agreement Sen. Kerry refers to here was not made with the OAS and the Carter Center, but with the opposition. The OAS and Carter Center acted as facilitators for this agreement. Second, the agreement does not mention the recall referendum at all. Rather, it calls on both sides to reject violence and to support the constitution. While there has been some debate in Venezuela as to who started the violent protests, there is much evidence that members of the opposition sought out a violent confrontation with state security forces. As for respecting the right to freedom of expression, there is complete and total freedom of expression in Venezuela, more than at any point in Venezuela’s history. Finally, with regard to political prisoners, this is a term that Venezuela’s opposition uses for them, but one which internationally recognized human rights organizations have yet to adopt. As such, Senator Kerry is placing himself as a solid supporter of Venezuela’s opposition, which does not bode well for future relations between the government of Venezuela and a possible President Kerry.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1136

[dpibel]

91. Up jumped the Carter Center

The echoes grow louder, post by post.

[AP]

63. Wrong on so many counts.

The independent CNE is setting the rules -- not Chavez. And they haven't -- as the Post claims -- delayed. They've issued rules, which the opposition challenged, which an opposition-friendly, carefully selected 3-judge panel affirmed, which the Supreme Court, en banc, overruled (because, IIUC, the constitution says that the Supreme Court cannot tell the CNE what rules to appy), which has allowed the recall process to go forward, fairly, trying to hold the walk-around lists to the same level of scrutiny as the station-lists (applying rules to which the opposition agreed).

You got anything else?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

64. We shouldn't feed the trolls.

[AP]

65. I want to force-feed them a little truth.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

68. Woo Hoo - good eyes

I imagine some "gorgeous" Venezuelan girl whispering in your ear as you type

Whoops - meantto reply to reply #22

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

86. Sanity - respond to this please

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&a...

[dpibel]

18. Ummmm

You're concerned that the US is going to try to stop regime change in Venezuela?

You would be living in which dimension? You would be smoking what substance?

BTW: Your train of thought has gone off the rails. You started out talking about how democrats must save John Kerry by refraining from speaking any good of Chavez. Now you are talking about foreign policy. Please save that for your next thread, or you will run out of talking points and provide inadequate entertainment.

Thank you.

Oh! By all means: Welcome to DU! Please enjoy your visit.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

22. Hey, I think I know you from somewhere.

Do you have a Venezuelan girlfriend too?

[TankLV]

30. Ha - good catch!

I wondered how long till he was back under a different name.

Didn't take long, did it?!

[dax]

38. He gave himself away with the trips to Aruba...

In one thread he slipped and said they vacationed in Aruba which is near Venezuela-I called him on it that these people he was talking to most probably were not peasants if they were vacationing in Aruba. I can't even afford to go to Aruba from here.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

40. I remember that thread. But I think it was someone else on Aruba

who had some Ven. exchange students with him. I could be wrong though.

[ParanoidPat]

32. Don't you mean the 'rich business owning people of Venezuela'.....

.....want Chavez gone? :shrug:

Well them and the US oil companies! :evilgrin: (Euro ring a bell?)

We have Google and we know how to use it! :)

[AP]

41. California should be as dilligent as VZ about validation!

In CA they validate 10% of the signatures throught some half-assed method.

In CA people get paid to collect signatures, and they get paid by the signature. You can't go shopping without getting accosted by signature gatherers. And if you're not paying attention, you might end up signing the same petitition several times.

In VZ, they had a very fair method for ensuring that this wouldn't happen.

Here's a good article about the situation:

The instructions stated that each signatory had to fill out in their own hand their Identity Number, Name and Signature and add their thumbprint. A note had to accompany each individual case where assistance was given, stating the reason.



The norms governing the referendum do not specify this.



The travelling forms, asked for by the opposition, to cater to the bed ridden and agreed to by the CNE were a very generous 12.5 percent of the total forms. In the event over a quarter of the total forms went walkabout and came back, with the exception of the signature and thumbprint, filled in by the same hand. As yet unsubstantiated allegations of these forms circulating through workplaces where workers were encouraged to sign and a potentially large number of proxy signatures of Venezuelans living abroad have complicated matters.

The validation process basically consists in allowing those who had their name entered without their consent to have them removed. To do this one has to present oneself in person and ask to be removed from the list and in depurating the completed forms of those who are not on the electoral register: the underage and foreigners or those who should no longer be: the dead. Unsurprisingly the dead, as has been traditionally the case, voted.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1133

[Sanity]

44. Do you believe these tactics ...

might ... just might be used for voter suppression?

That's the problem.

[ParanoidPat]

47. Do you believe that the Diebold touch screens might, just might.....

.....be hacked? :shrug:

I'd be a little more concerned about elections in this country if I were you! I've gone through the source code! :scared:

[Sanity]

48. What does that have anything to do with this discussion?

FYI, I think it's possible, but I would have to read up more on it.

[AP]

50. I don't think anyone's really disputing the fact that this makes sense.

Can you cite any credible evidence that contradicts this article?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

51. Try throwing gasoline bombs at the national guard in our country.

Like those kids are doing in the W Post article. I think we both know we'd be deader than Dick Cheney. Dictator my ass. What a bunch of bullshit. Any so called dictator, not to mention our own leaders would have mowed down the whole street. Amazing, isn't it?

[Sanity]

56. Your article to me sounds more like a viewpoint

You and your article seem to contend that these drawn out procedures of confirming one's signature to see if they "really mean it" are really of no hassle.

If they did this in America, do you know what the uproar would be on both sides (but probably more on our side)? This is not voter confirmation. This is voter intimidation. Pure and simple.

[AP]

61. I take that as "No, I have no credible evidence supporting my viewpoint"

And I'll reitierate, what happened in CA -- paid signature collectors, a 10% check with no rigorous checks, and the media buying Arnold a win once we have the undemocractic recall -- is way worse than what's going on in VZ. In fact, VZ is a paradigm of democratic virtue when compared to the US.

Moreover, they're doing pretty well on an absolute scale too.

Can you cite anything that says they aren't?

[radwriter0555]

72. Your author is a fraud and is nothing more than a lying whore for the PNAC

that's QUITE clear.

Check your sources, dear.

[dpibel]

90. They should act the way we do here in the home of true democracy

Here, we just make up lists of 57,000 dubious felons and disenfranchise them "just in case." Much better and more democratic.

[WyLoochka]

67. The Oiligarchs inside and

outside Venezuela want Chavez gone. And just as with Iraq, they will lie, cheat, steal and murder to accomplish their goal of totally controlling the oil and leaving the people of Venezuela in abject poverty.

Chavez is fighting the same battle we are fighting here - against the same corporate interests. The essential difference is that there is total control of the Venezuelan media by the oiligarchs instead of the, as yet partial but growing control, of our media by the right winger, neo feudalist interests.

Chavez has not canceled any elections - he has subjected the signatures to appropriately intense scrutiny, however, given the history of extreme methods the oiligarchs have employed against him.

The movement to oust Chavez is fueled, funded and promoted by arch anti-democracy zealots. They are chagrined and they are losing, as Chavez - with all he has had to contend with - has succeeded in stimulating a 9% economic growth rate for Venezuela, primarily by doling out small business and small agricultural "micro loans" to dirt poor Venezuelan mestizos from the proceeds of the oil those people rightfully own.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

84. What does "overly validate" mean?

Please explain this strange term

[dpbrown]

6. How many are being tortured in Bush's Guantanamo?

Under the flimsy pretext that it's "not America."

Attacks on Chavez are FreeperUnderground talking points, nothing more.

[Solidarity]

7. Viva Chavez!

And here comes the right-wing of the Democratic Party. Kerry is their man on Latin America! That's all right. Anybody But Bush!

[noiretextatique]

9. this sounds eerily familiar

but, at least this story is current :eyes: time will tell...

[dpibel]

19. First thing that came to my mind n/t

[ret5hd]

20. do you feel a cool sea breeze also?

boy, i know i do.

[Classical_Liberal]

12. Vcrisis supported the coup

. Dah!

[0007]

15. ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((BONG)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Bad website - bad post - bad threat

[htuttle]

16. Your post needs something

Here:



:)

[0007]

21. Thanks man

[Judi Lynn]

94. Impeccable response! n/t

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

23. Hey everybody, our friend's back.

[JanMichael]

24. Did seasickwind get banned?

I musta missed it:shrug:

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

28. Check it out.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=135441

[Oilwellian]

29. Well it's about damn time

The person was such a glaring disruptor with an obvious agenda. I asked him/her what that agenda was, but never got an answer. Just what IS the purpose of this bullshit?

[Judi Lynn]

34. One giant step forward for DU'ers!

Now THAT'S a disruptor!

Someone already mentioned if he slimes his way back in, he'll be spotted, due to his "style."

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

35. It sure smells like it in here.

[Matilda]

55. Hey, that's good news.

I couldn't understand though how he could have been around so long
without being outed. I figured it was maybe just on one issue that
he had a problem.

[Judi Lynn]

87. I think he could use this new logo

Keeping the same sea motif, updated.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

88. And his new name could be

Oilansea

[durutti]

25. If it's on the Internet, it must be true!

If you click on the link to the Haiti Democracy Project, you'll find a site praising the ouster of Aristide, with the mandatory right-wingers sitting on its board. This site is clearly not a credible source.

Corruption of police and public officials in Venezuela is widespread. But it was widespread long before Chavez came to power. In fact, Chavez ran on an anti-corruption platform.

Now, whatever efforts (if any) Chavez has actually taken to stamp out corruption have obviously been ineffective. But they don't really answer to him.

The effort certainly isn't helped by the meddling of the United States, which has forced Chavez to stay on the defensive, lest he get Allende'd.

[Zorra]

26. I can not find any credentials for the author of the article you posted.

What educational or experiential background does Aleksander Boyd have that would make me consider his writings and opinions about the situation in Venezuela as credible? He apparently lives in London. I found several articles written by him in a publication called petroleumworld.com. Here is an article by him that was published in petroleumworld.com:

http://www.petroleumworld.com/Edit4Mar11.htm

I also found this blurb on Aleksander Boyd:

London-based Venezuelan hate website Vcrisis, of course, spews its scurrilous venom all over AFP reporting and lumps it now in the same trash can as they have been putting BBC reports recently. It seems that Aleksander Boyd, who seems to take pride in claiming his anti-Venezuelan search & destroy maneuvers are not meant to be a journalistic endeavor and admits that he is not a specialist in politics, economics or law, hides behind a disclaimer announcing he does not claim responsibility for the opinions or facts he publishes. Safe then to indulge his particular bent in unsubstantiated hatred for just about everything on which the Venezuelan Constitution stands.

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=14935

And here is a quote from Aleksander Boyd in another petroleumworld.com article:

As customary, no self-respected lefty pays any attention to this. Chavez keeps accusing the US of this and that and although I am not a fan of America I would love to see Bush et al telling Chavez “all right boy, now you will sell your oil to Castro for we don’t want your stinking minions around here any more.” It is an incredibly naïve thought I must confess, money and oil are the best presentation cards nowadays, isn’t that right Mr Alvarez Herrera?

http://www.petroleumworld.com/Edit4Feb20.htm

Can't find out much about Boyd's background but it appears that he may be a pro oil industry conservative.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

27. I remember people getting banned for this type of stunt.

[dax]

39. This is kind of cool...

to out a terrorist working undercover-I like IT!!

[Zorra]

58. Huh? What part of

"London-based Venezuelan hate website Vcrisis, of course, spews its scurrilous venom all over AFP reporting and lumps it now in the same trash can as they have been putting BBC reports recently. It seems that Aleksander Boyd, who seems to take pride in claiming his anti-Venezuelan search & destroy maneuvers are not meant to be a journalistic endeavor and admits that he is not a specialist in politics, economics or law, hides behind a disclaimer announcing he does not claim responsibility for the opinions or facts he publishes. Safe then to indulge his particular bent in unsubstantiated hatred for just about everything on which the Venezuelan Constitution stands."

and "petroleumworld.com"

did you not get?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

60. Actually, I more than got it. That's what i'm referring to.

Right wing sources should not be allowed here.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

85. Do we need moderator intervention?

Or should we continue our vigil?

[radwriter0555]

73. boyd HAS no creds. He stinks. My money says he's a PNAC spook..

he just STINKS.

I bet he doesn't even exist IRL.

[Zorra]

81. Yep.

Trained at the SOA maybe?

[9215]

31. Sanity, are you windnsea incognito?

Just curious. ;)

[ParanoidPat]

33. I was just going to suggest to Elad, Earl and Skinner......

.....that they should check the server logs for familiar IP addresses! :evilgrin: :toast:

[hang a left]

75. Well PP, I got alerted and my post removed for this subject line

"windandsea is that you?"


I have no idea why.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

83. Interesting. I don't like the sound of that

But really - is that you , Windy?

[9215]

59. A non-answer? What does that

usually mean? :eyes:

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

78. I think I smell a gorgeous influential girlfriend

maybe its my imagination

[Cat Atomic]

36. I think I smell the ocean.

I live close to the beach.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

37. Do you feel the breeze as well?

[Vladimir]

66. Actually

I got caught in a hailstorm today... but yeah, I'm feelin da breeze too. :)

I'm loooooovin' it!

V

[SeveneightyWhoa]

52. Anyone read the Disclaimer?

Disclaimer


Our pages are not meant to be a substitute for any professional investment advice, academic research, or journalistic endeavor . The opinions of others do not necessarily represent our own. We are not specialists in politics, economics, or law. Everything contained on our pages reflects our criteria regarding pertinent information, but we do not claim responsibility for the opinions or facts published herein.

Aleksander Boyd
President of ProVeO and Editor of Vcrisis

------

Well there you go. "We are not specialists" on basically anything, and their information simply "reflects our criteria regarding pertinent information, but we do not claim responsibility for the opinions or facts published herein.

In other words, this site has less veracity than the Bush administration, and the site even comes right out and tells you that.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

53. With Chavez being such a monster.

Why would people need to resort to the use of RW sites? You would think you can find hit pieces anywhere without lowering standards to this shit.

[ConsAreLiars]

57. I recall a poster

who relied heavily on vcrisis.com for stories. Apart from being tainted by the anti-democratic alliances vcrisis participates in, the poster also relied heavily on sources like the Exxon/Scaife-funded Freedom House and hacer.com. I pointed out the funding of the sources which that poster presented on DU shortly before he was tombstoned. I suspect the person using this nick will be more careful, but using Alksander Boyd and vcrisis as a source here suggests that finding congenial viewpoints outside of the neo-fascist right can be quite a challenge.

[Vladimir]

69. I am a wacky fringe?

Oooooh, I was hoping you'd call me a pinko-commie-polpottite. Guess I only warrant wacky fringe. Schucks.

Good use of recent articles by the way. Next lesson: finding and using unbiased sources.

V

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

70. This whole thing reminds me of a certain California governor.

You know, the clever change of identity and all. (last pic)

[Vladimir]

74. The swordfish

gets my vote every time... LOL

V

[peacetalksforall]

71. Well Mr, Miss, Mrs Sanity, I resent your post.

I am not a wacky fringe of this parry. I am an Independent who has believed in the party from Kennedy to Wellstone and abhors the policies and filth of the Republican Party.

I don't want the Republican Party to take over the Democrats.

And I have big doubts about Kerry.

I care first of all because I was foolish enough to believe what I was taught when young - that this is a country of the people, by the people, for the people.....

If the Republican Party is working as hard as it is to get rid of Chavez, another duly elected leader of his country, then why should I support anyone here who is trying to help them.

I absolutely resent your calling me - A WACKY FRINGE MEMBER OF THIS PARTY.

Whe the hell are you?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

76. Hey windan...I mean Sanity, what do you say to this thread?

Court Delivers New Setback to Venezuela Vote Hopes

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x440082

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

77. Can you think of any words that rhyme with Hannity? eom

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

79. LOL - if you're going to disguise yourself

don't spew the same exact crap in exactly the same way you did before. Give us some time to figure you out. This was too easy.

:)

[Vladimir]

80. Vanity?

;-)

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

89. Mr Sanity?

Where are you. Did you get tombstoned again?

I want to know why you do this?

[laughing_dog]

92. Chavez

He's elected, popular, and honest. We've got no business screwing with Venezuela.

[Ignis]

93. What, no quote from Barney Frank?

I thought it was obligatory by now....

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

95. Sanity - where did you go?

There are a lot of questions here.