Kerry rebuffs Chavez and Zapatero after both indicate support! What?

[Classical_Liberal]

Does Kerry want foriegn allies or not? What gives?


Kerry rebuffs Venezuela's Chavez

Monday, March 22, 2004 Posted: 7:53 PM EST (0053 GMT)


A statement condemning Chavez appears on Kerry's campaign site.
Story Tools
CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters) -- U.S. Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry has attacked Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez as a dubious democrat hostile to U.S. interests, delivering a slap in the face to the leftist leader who had portrayed Kerry as a potential friend.

The Kerry statement on his Web site made front-page news in Venezuela on Monday, nearly two weeks after Chavez had publicly praised the Democrat contender, hailing his health care plans and likening him to assassinated U.S. President John Kennedy.

In his declaration dated March 19, the Massachusetts senator accused Chavez of undermining Venezuela's democracy, supporting Colombian rebels and "narco-terrorists" and trying to torpedo a constitutional bid by foes to hold a referendum on his rule.....

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/03/22/kerry.chavez.reut/

European terrorism: How broad is the war?

Tuesday, March 23, 2004




In a series of explosions on March 11, terrorists killed more than 200 and wounded 1,500 people in Madrid. But they also inflicted political damage, the fallout of which continues to be felt by partners in the war on global terrorism.


The immediate political impact of the train bombings was felt in the March 14 Spanish elections. Voters ousted incumbent Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar, a strong U.S. ally in the Iraq war, replacing him with Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, who vowed to withdraw Spanish forces from Iraq unless the United Nations assumes control by June 30.

The election, which expressed the sovereign will of Spanish voters, has not translated well into U.S. English. Though Americans sympathize with Spain, many view the Spanish election as tantamount to giving terrorists exactly what they wanted. Even U.S. Sen. John Kerry, a critic of the war in Iraq, had urged Zapatero not to withdraw Spanish troops from Iraq. Many U.S. leaders warn that would encourage al Qaida to use terrorism to influence other election outcomes.

http://www.mlive.com/news/jacitpat/index.ssf?/base/news-0/108006157688860.xml

[Gloria]

1. Seems to be in overdrive, compensating for that "foreign leaders

like me best" comment......Damn.

[Ediacara]

66. I agree

Kerry would have done better to not have brought that up in the first place, and then to leave well enough alone etc... Chavez and Zapatero (and Martin and Fox and etc..) all prefer Kerry to Bush, and everyone knows it, and there was no need to make a silly news flap about it, and Kerry's website statement makes the situation worse rather than better.

[JanMichael]

2. Well I suppose a social Liberal can not like Economic Liberals.

For some it's easy to accept, even promote, sexual/sex/race equality but once the Economic levellers come a calling they run like hell.

Kind of like a half decafeinated half caf.

[camero]

13. Exactly

and we call them "moderates".

[JanMichael]

26. Yep. It's easy when they don't have to sacrifice anything.

Go gay people!

Go Minorities!

Go Women!

Go "Little People"!

Go Socia..er...wut?

Sorry mate, my chauffer is calling, gotta run.

Edited for tact.

[camero]

32. Lottery mentality

That's the only way I can put it. They think that if they just don't rock the boat, they too will be rich. Ain't gonna happen.

The greedy are greedy because they want it all. Not some.

[librechik]

3. obviously

it's a nice gesture, but they might as well hang a "kick me I'm a commie" on Kerry's ass.

Don't worry, he'll make up with them later when he has official status. It's inappropriate now.

[seventhson]

4. Kerry is an asshole and this stinks

but he is, unfortunately, our asshole.

Sometimes even your own shit stinks.

This stinks a LOT!!!

Kerry! If you don't WANT us to support you JUST SAY SO!

[goforit]

27. Yep....Kerry wants Bush to win!!!..Lose or win...THE PEOPLE WILL

will know the scam for what it is.

And the people WILL be ready!!!!

[aprilgirl]

30. Well, that does it. I really don't give a damn who wins in 2004!

I think Nader is right...they are all cut from the same mold. I am totally disgusted with Kerry and will vote for LaRouche.

[ParanoidPat]

56. Well goodbye now! Catch you on www.laroucheunderground.com......

.....NOT! :evilgrin: Don't let the door hit ya! :hi:

[Octafish]

38. Always with the "nice." Kerry's smart.

If Kerry says, "Yes, thank you very much for your help, Mr. Foreign Leader." The right wing will tear him a new one. Kerry has to first get elected, then he can say "Thank you very much."

[PassingFair]

44. The Reich Wing...

is gonna tear him a new one regardless. He needs to speak the truth. Not his senate talk. His base will erode, and the "undecideds" will vote for the Puke over the "puke light".

[sampsonblk]

65. All due respect, that's crap

Same crap the Bush people used in 2000. Remember how Bush was "compassionate," and how he was a "Reformer with Results?" Fluck that. We should insist on the truth. If John Kerry is ashamed of what we believe in, or if he isn't skillful enough to get a majority of Americans to see that we are right and that we have not a damn thing to be ashamed of, then he should drop out and let a real Democrat run.

We are not wrong. They are. Why should we have to hide what we believe?

[Octafish]

71. Don't think so. The object is to get elected.

Then we can be nice to our friends.

Remember, the Bush Organized Crime Family will use their minions in the press to mold public opinion, their millions to cast dispersions through paid media, and their shills to denigrate the candidate at every turn.

Let Kerry be the boss. He knows how to lead.

[sampsonblk]

72. He Knows How to Lead?

He voted for the "war." Now, I am to wink and nod if he says things that are against what we believe in, because I can rest assured that he is really on my side?

I will vote for the guy, and encourage my friends to do the same, but I ain't gonna like it.

[Octafish]

75. Good on you!

The guy's not perfect. And I certainly didn't support him on the war, and telephoned his office to tell him what I thought. But Kerry is a leader. And he's a Kennedy Democrat, to boot. Just like me.

[Classical_Liberal]

5. There is a direct link to Kerry's campaign email page here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=477586&mesg_id=477586

If you would like to give Kerry a piece of your mind on the subject.

I really have no idea what he is doing. Why is he alienating supporters?

[revcarol]

7. Yeah, Greens, true liberals, independents, people sick of

corporations running U. S. policy...gee, they might not come out to VOTE!!

TERRIBLE MISTAKE

[Classical_Liberal]

8. I am not a green. I voted for Gore and will vote for Kerry

but I don't fucking get this.

[kiahzero]

6. This reminds me of an atheist group

They give out their support to politicians they don't like, because they know that it's the touch of death.

Why does this remind me of it? Because Kerry understands this, and knows he needs to distance himself from these two leaders.

[Classical_Liberal]

10. That is a bit paranoid.

I hardly think these two are radicals anyway. They are foriegn liberals.

[kiahzero]

15. I wasn't saying they were trying to hurt Kerry

I was saying that Kerry is smart for trying to distance himself somewhat.

[Classical_Liberal]

16. How is that smart

particularly with Zapatero. Zapatero only said that after Colon asked Kerry to name names, when Kerry said, "most foriegn leaders supported him!" Isn't that rude? Doesn't Kerry want allies?

[kiahzero]

20. If it wasn't Zapatero, it wasn't Zapatero

I thought the quote came from before Zapatero was elected (I could be wrong about this, however). If that's the case, why should Kerry lie and say it was Zapatero if it wasn't?

[Classical_Liberal]

22. Kerry said general foriegn leaders then refused to devulge names

Zapatero scratched Kerry's back. He said it after he was elected.

[kiahzero]

23. OK

So it could have been Zapatero... I stand corrected.

I still think it was a smart move of Kerry's campaign, assuming that it was a leader other than Zapatero. Americans still have negative association with the word "socialist." Kerry embracing a Socialist Party leader would aid Bush's attack that he's a huge leftie... something that would be a bad thing for the general election.

I should note that Kerry's quote clearly stated that the leaders did not want to be revealed, so to expect him to reveal them is just silly.

[Ediacara]

69. I can understand him trying to distance himself from Chavez

but Zapatero? His party just won and seems to have similar views concerning terrorism. If he needs to distance himself because Zapatero's a socialist, well fuck, he's a EUROsocialist. Most democrats and greens, and liberals and NDPers, and labours and libdems, would be within European Socialist parties! Kerry's a Eurosocialist! Heck, Lieberman's a Eurosocialist!

[corporatewhore]

9. well obviously he dont like zapateros bringing the troops home policy and

chavez's anti freetrade policies why does this suprise anyone kerry wants to continue american neoliberal and colonial policies

[Classical_Liberal]

11. Kerry says he opposes the chapter 11 provision of Nafta

which is fair enough to me. It doesn't explain his attitude toward Zapatero and Chavez.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

12. Unfortnatly he has to say this because Americans are still.....

in their "Toby Keith, Ignorant, Bigot, Xenophobe mode" at this time.

[Classical_Liberal]

14. I hope your right

but since they are xenophobes to the extent that they don't know what is going on elsewhere why did Kerry have to say anything at all? 4 days ago Bushco had Kerry nailed to wall over his comment that most foriegn leaders supported him. Bushco wanted him to name names. Zapatero volunteered himself and Kerry rewards him with this smack down. I don't get it.

[dax]

24. Most Americans are ISOLATIONISTS-he could just be against INTERVENTION

That would satisfy me-he does NOT have to render judgement on other countries to demonstrate Foreign policy-he can talk about objectives and mutual interests and leave out the crap that costs money like funding opposition movements to put fascists in power so US corps can privatize the economy and subjugate the workforce-think about the paternalism in his statement about "US interests" when has the United States ever subordinated itself for Venezuela's interests??? or any other country what a bunch of crap.

[Old and In the Way]

17. Sure, let's push Kerry as far left as we can before the GE!

Let's make a move to get the 2% Nader voters and give up the 15% in the middle who'll be educated on Kerry's transgressions by the RNC.

Either you understand the politics of getting elected President, or you don't. Don't take my word for it. Ask George Bush who ran for President as a moderate/compassionate conservative.

[Classical_Liberal]

18. It isn't far left to keep your mouth shut on those two

? He could have atleast done that? Smacking down Zapatero attracts no voters what so ever! It does alienate liberals.

[AP]

29. I have such mixed feelings about this. But one thing it makes

me feel is extremely nostalgic for Edwards at the debates criticizing past US presidents for having good relationships with the House of Saud and other governments which don't care about their people, and saying that America needs to do things that reach out to the citizens of foreign governments. The example he gave was building public schools for Afghanistan.

Well, that's what Chavez does. He builds schools for poor people.

Also, this reminds me of the difference between Edwards and Kerry on the issue of neoliberalism. Edwards wouldn't vote for profits at any cost to foreign countries' workers and environment.

The other thing that disturbs me about this is that, even if Kerry is talking shit to win his election, he just fucked up Chavez's.

Otto Reich just went down to El Salvador and delivered this same message so that the fascists could win there: "we're not looking forward to working with the liberal party."

The VZ opposition will now use Kerry's words to convince people that NOBODY in America wants to work with Chavez.

[Dr Fate]

60. Uh huh- and wait for Karl Rove to define him? No thanx.

"Keep his mouth shut", he says!...

[Classical_Liberal]

61. How would Rove use a nonstatement on this matter?

? Explain? Most Americans don't know about it, except for people who might want to work for Kerry.

[Dr Fate]

62. Too Easy: "Communists Endorse Kerry"

I can see the Drudge/Rush/Fox/CNN echo chamber now...

They are looking for anything- the whole " Un-named Foreigners support Kerry- and now communists"- It was comming.

All they would have to do is take some quote out of context or even make one up to go with a few talking points...

Kerry does not have to accept endorsments from this guy one way or the other.

I'm not going to pretend to be a Chavez expert like everyone else- I'm sure he's like a lot of other 3rd world politicians...

[Classical_Liberal]

63. and dissing Chavez didn't make it go away

Chavez is unlike most third world politicians in that he was elected democratically.

[Dr Fate]

64. I have to support every politician who was elected?

Since when?

Everyone keeps bringing up that he was elected- so what?

Are we saying that Kerry has to support anyone who was elected- no matter what they do?

Kerry has not said anything about overthrowing Chavez...

Who was "dissing" him?- I dont much about him, but he is a politican and not beyond reproach, and everyone is acting like he's god's gift to man.

Hey- Kerry could be wrong on this- but I'm not going to accept the premise that Chavez is some wonderful leader based on a few web-sites.

Doc

[Classical_Liberal]

68. He said Chavez supported narcoterrorsts

which is a Shrubco lie that has even been debunked by the state department.

He also said Chavez was undermining democracy through illegal means another lie.

[Dr Fate]

70. Yep- lots of web-sites accuse Kerry of lying...

I'll stay tuned to this issue, if it even comes up again anytime soon, and then determine who is lying and who is not...

Calling the DEM nominee a liar is not somthing I'm really into-I'm not sure how that characterazation helps Democrats. So,I'm through posting w/ you tonight...

[Classical_Liberal]

78. It'is on Kerry's own website in a press release.

A link that has been posted several times in these discussions. You might want to read the links every once in a while. I don't accuse him of lying. I think their is a possibility of bad advise. Atleast that is what I hope.

[Dr Fate]

79. No, you do accuse Kerry, the Democratic candidate, of lying...

and Kerry's website does not Prove Kerry is lying.

All I've seen are a bunch of web-sites that I have never seen before, saying how great Chavez is.

I've seen nothing balanced on Chavez- just "Pro Chavez" articles that are supposed mean Kerry is lying.

You think that just because I take all these sources with a grain of salt means I did not read them???

Just who are the "sheep" here anyway?

If you are going to call our Democratic nominee a "liar"- then you better back it up- because I know damn well I can prove Bush is a liar.

All you have proved is that one side says one thing and one side says another.

Doc

[Dr Fate]

80. I dont know about Kerry, but YOU ARE lying.

Your quote:

"He also said Chavez was undermining democracy through illegal means another lie."

BUT THEN you say:

"I don't accuse him of lying. I think their is a possibility of bad advise."


Backtracking are we?

First you accuse Kerry of lying, then you say you never said that, when it's here for all to see.

If you are going to accuse our Candidate of being a liar, then perhaps you should set an example by not lying yourself.

Doc

[Aquarian_Conspirator]

82. Fine, if he won't, then *I'll* say it...

Kerry is lying! He knows there is no, zero, nada, evidence supporting the recycled right-wing claims that Chavez is supporting narco-terrorists and communist guerrillas. These are LIES, and what's worse, they are lies spawned from Otto Reich's very own propaganda machine! And speaking of zero and nada, that's how much respect I have left for anyone, no matter what party they are from, who uncritically parrots anything from Otto (the 3rd) Reich. Kerry, at least as far as his policy toward Latin America, is just as despicable as Bush! His environmental record is the *only* reason I am going to, come November, drink a pint of vodka, clothespin my nose, stumble into a voting booth, hold out a limp and trembling hand, and sacrifice my one vote to Kerry. At least cartoonists will be happy.

[Dr Fate]

84. Links? Or are you "mistaken" about Kerry too?

Your premise is off- the "mistaken" poster did call Kerry a liar- and then lie- opps, I mean "mistakenly" claimed that he never called Kerry one...

Do you have any links that are balanced that prove Kerry is lying?

How about somthing that explains why Chavez refuses to comply with the Carter Center?- A BALANCED link, not somthing from the World Wide Socialist Co-opt or whatever...

I've read all the pro-Chavez propaganda I can handle for one day- and I am not going to pretend I am a Chavez expert just because I've read a few "Z net" articles...

[camero]

19. and the 50% that don't vote?

We should count them out too?

[They_LIHOP]

28. It just doesn't make f***ing SENSE, man...

I believe it was foolish of Kerry to go out of his way and call out either of these two world leaders. He will get ZERO love from anyone for doing so, and only risks disdain from his own 'base' - US.

You seem to think that anyone in America who hasn't already made up their mind is going to hear or care about this. They won't. All he is doing is helping to fracture his base, and alienate himself from progressive leaders in the world - gee, just like the chimp...

[camero]

31. Some of those 50% do pay attention

They are the "undecidedes". I think you should read my post in context. Thanks and welcome to DU. He also is further alienating them by cowtowing to the political establishment.

[Zorra]

21. Enticing republican fence sitters to vote for him?

Republicans sick of Bu$h looking for somewhere to go? Thinking maybe Kerry, a Vietnam vet, is not so liberal after all?

Kerry counting on liberal Dems to be ABB, hoping they recognize the political necessity of his "anti-communist" pronouncements and will still back him?

Please, somebody give me a straw to clutch.

[dax]

25. Bravo! grabbing the non=voters is more likely than disgruntled Bushies!!!

Bush doesn't need to be a compassionate conservative because he has been annointed by the Christian RIght-they believe he is chosen to lead and can do no wrong-Kerry won't win any of them- Libertarians hate intervention-they want to hang on to all their money and not waste it on damn foreigners, independents don't need saber rattling either-but there are a lot of people who never vote who might be impressed with a little integrity. Kerry could just SHOW SOME and quit pandering to the Empire builders.

[Alenne]

33. Where does he rebuff Zapatero?

[Classical_Liberal]

34. Over pulling troops out of Iraq.n/t

.

[Alenne]

36. urging him is not rebuffing him

I understand why he wouldn't want countries to start pulling their troops out of Iraq. The country is a disaster.

[Classical_Liberal]

37. He said if the UN doesn't get into it, he will pull out

I want the UN to take over Iraq too. Keeping it as is, isn't going to make things better.

[Alenne]

39. and Kerry asked him not to.

He didn't say anything bad about him. He gave his opinion and Zapatero doesn't have to listen.

If the UN doesn't get involved and he pulls out that won't make it better either.

[Classical_Liberal]

40. Nor will it make it worse except for Bush

why not humiliate Bush and this stupid policy? It is a rebuff in context of Zapatero's support and it is an indication Kerry doesn't intend on persuing a different policy then Bush in Iraq. It is incoherant politics. Kerry can change this pretty easily, by making sense.

[Alenne]

41. and it will hurt the troops.

It's good to play politics sometimes but this isn't one of the times. The soldiers in Iraq are already overextended. Now is not the time for countries who supported this stupid war to start pulling out before the job is finished. It may humiliate Bush but at a very high cost.

[Classical_Liberal]

43. There are only 2000 or so Spanish troops

Kerry should be calling for UN to replace them if he is serious about helping the troops. Why prop up Bush. Kerry's pitch to us Deaniacs is that the war is in the past. It ain't. How is Kerry going to get us out of Iraq?

[Alenne]

45. maybe he will if Zapatero withdraws.

To me this has nothing to do with Bush.

[Classical_Liberal]

48. I see

yeah right. Iraq has nothing to do with the Bush campaign.

[Alenne]

52. No

His urging Zapatero not to withdraw the troops has nothing to do with Bush.

[Classical_Liberal]

53. I fear it does have to do with the neocons(Liebermanite dems)

Why prop them up? I have absolutely no idea what Kerry is trying to do now.

[Dr Fate]

67. Lieberman has yet to endorse Kerry...

And I dont know any Kerry supporters who ever cared that much for Joe- or equated him with South American policy...

[July]

73. I think it's even fewer, IIRC, around 1,300. n/t

[dax]

50. Why can't he just say-I hope to get the US troops out soon also

The whole mess is because of privatization-if they let go of that and let the Iraqis figure out how they want to run their economy, we could all leave and just hand over the money and hire them-they need the jobs and they know how to run them a lot cheaper than Haliburton. BushCo doesn't want to turn the reconstruction over to them because they will do it cheaper, and maybe even pay the workers better. and maybe a French German DUtch or Mexican Company might get a few contracts-or maybe a Venezuelan company-if we let go of corporate monopoly we could teach the world to sing. think of all the problems that could be solved. They would love to sell us oil-the price might go up but-they should have the right to raise it-there is only so much oil. all these greedy industries might just have to embrace new technologies to use less and it just might create a few JOBS HERE-the kind we need. Kerry is truly dense if he cannot figure these things out by now.

[Rex]

35. It is "foot in mouth" disease.

I hear most famous politicians get it from time to time. Kerry will survive.

[RichM]

42. Kerry is signalling to opinion-makers his acceptance of the corporate

definition of "American interests." He is making clear to the corporations that they have nothing to fear from him.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

58. Letter change now!

Kerry, why are you making it harder and harder for me to vote for you?

TWL

[leesa]

46. Whorin' for the corporatists, eh Kerry? Can't let Chavez keep his country

oil for his own people. Kerry is as much the oil whore as Bush is. We will be at war until we capture all the oil.

[freeforall]

47. He should have kept his mouth shut on this one

He's not smart to piss off foreign leaders, and especially to piss off the electorate. I think his treatment of these leaders has really gotten a lot of people angry.

On another thread, I have a longer post (which I won't repeat), but he has signaled to the corporate world that he'll protect their interests. Considering that corporate interests are diametrically opposed to the interests of the general population, what does that tell you.

Two election choices: Bush or Bush-lite?

I don't get to vote anyway, but I'm very disappointed in Kerry. I thought after he started hammering at Bush, that maybe he would do some good.

Really though, there's not much difference.


Methinks you guys are screwed!

Edit:typo

[9215]

49. Clintonesque politics.

I used to laugh at Clinton when he did similar things to slacken the Right-Wing's ardor. Kerry knows the Righties are trying to paint him as a liberal,traitor, commie symp, blah, blah. He's just throwing a wrench in their plans with this otherwise meaningless stuff. What better way than to take a jab at the "socialists".

IMO its pretty harmless.

[dax]

51. It still wouldn't hurt to open a dialogue...

He could just remind people that there are a lot of countries that could do better as we could also-he should not come out now as a solid anti-socialist-that will cost him because socialism is not the dirty word everywhere else that it is here.

[jeanmarc]

54. Votes plus or votes minus for doing this?

Votes plus all the way.

He has to do it to keep it from being some silly issue that Boosh surrogates will use.

[Classical_Liberal]

55. Nader can use it!

If he hadn't said anything at all nobody could use it.

[jeanmarc]

57. If Nader wants to build his support with

that, have at it. Your numbers are smaller than you think. Vote Nader because of this small little slight that has nothing to do with what he'll really do, and you'll get your 4 more years of Bush.

Traditionally, the party moves toward the center when the primaries end and as the general election nears. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

This is silly. "I VOTED NADER, BECAUSE KERRY SAID SOME DISTANCING REMARKS AGAINST TWO FOREIGN LEADERS DURING AN AMERICAN ELECTION"

I wouldn't want that on my tombstone.

[Classical_Liberal]

59. I am not a naderite

I don't want to lose them though. The last time you actively disenfranchised them you ended up with Bush. Why not try to do it different this time? If you want to fault voters, you honestly don't deserve any victories. I guess you liked the results of the last election. oh well. Most sane people care about those voters more than the Hillary is Stalin crowd, but I can't expect sanity in the Kerry campaign. I guess he doesn't want to win.

[MadHound]

74. Well, at least Kerry is showing his true colors early on.

Talking like corporate mouthpiece that he is. This also shows his DLC/PPI backers that he can talk the talk and walk the walk.

Sheesh, just one more nail in the two party/same corporate master platform that is being built.

[pippin]

76. Kerry is a SOB

but unfortunately, he is our SOB.

[Dr Fate]

81. I think Kerry Bashers are the Sons of Bitches...

How is calling our candidate obscene names helping a damn thing?

A bunch of Sons of Bitches must really want 4 more years for Bush, is all I can think of.

[nolabels]

77. Trying to translate global concerns onto another's countries domestic.....

issues is wrong and never worked in the long run. We could no more accept that type thing here than Zapatero could accept it there. The only way this could be a real issue is if there had been treaty put together and ratified on a alliance for the military invasion.

Laws and politics triangulate but one is not the exclusive of the other

As for the dubious democrat hostile to U.S. interests I think it's comical satire at its finest, now that I am thinking about it :D

[Cuban_Liberal]

83. How many threads on this will you be starting?

Was the one over in GD:E2004 not enough? :shrug: