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I actually hope the USSC rules in favor of the Pledge of Allegiance

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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 07:03 PM
Original message
I actually hope the USSC rules in favor of the Pledge of Allegiance
Why? Because they will likely render their ruling in October, right in the middle of Ground Zero of the campaign. If the Court sides with Newdow, the atheist, the American public will have an absolute cow. It will also play right into the hands of the Bush campaign, while causing Kerry to alienate his liberal base by being forced to denounce the decision with squishy statements. Newdow may be right on the facts, but we also have to deal in the real world. Nor has anyone convinced me that his daughter is a victim akin to that of the black schoolchildren who were segregated 50 years ago. I'm sorry, but the issue of two words in the Pledge of Allegiance is simply not worth losing the election over. The Right can have their "Under God", if Kerry can have the White House.
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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. I Have To Agree
Winning the election is the most important thing.
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Catfight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
2. Call me an idealist
I hope the USSC doesn't base decisions on politics, but on law. I hope that public persuasion isn't an influence for these decisions. It seems pretty cut and dry to me, it was added in the 50's, it can be removed in the 21st century. End of story.
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. You beat me to it.
What does the under god in the Pledge have to do with anything except religion anyway.
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. I hope the USSC doesn't base decisions on politics, but on law.
So do we all. But there was this little thing called Florida 2000...
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. I hope the USSC doesn't base decisions on politics, but on law.
You are kidding right? ~ 2000 Bush* vs Gore ring any bells?
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
3. No...
the Supreme Court CONVENES in October. It will release its decision anytime between next week and July, probably. It won't come out in the fall.
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Bunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Right you are.
I think SCOTUS issues their rulings for the year in May and June, and then take the summer off before they convene in October. Any decisions they make will be released by the end of June, I believe.
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lazarus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
6. This betrays a misunderstanding of the issue
The issue isn't the Pledge, it's two words in the Pledge. All Newdow wants is the words "under God" removed. The Pledge restored to its original state.

In a way, the USSC's ruling in favour of the Pledge would mean they would rule "under God" would be removed.
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Viking12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. It's not about the two words
it's about coercing children into saying those two words.
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RebelOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Agreed.
Children are being brain-washed enough. When they are little, they are taught that there is an Easter bunny, a tooth fairy and Santa Claus and then god is drummed into their heads.
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. A weird thing in and of itself
To non Americans the pledge of allegiance is a weird thing period.

But if I was an American citizen I'd have no probs keeping the words "under god" in it - as I don't belive in him/her/it it'd render the whole thing pointless.
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hansberrym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
12. Newdou's argument rests on a flawed premise. It is not at all
logical to read the Establishment Clause so broadly as to render unconstitutional both James Madison's "Memorial and Remonstrance" and Thomas Jefferson's "A Virginia Bill for Religious Freedom", or to forbid the teaching of these laws to school children.

Note that both of these were meant to protect religious freedom and forbid religious establishments, and yet both rely on "god", "the almighty", the "Universal sovereign", etc. as the ultimate source of authority. The statement in the Pledge that we are "one nation, under god" is no different than what can be found in both documents.


The Establishment Clause is not at odds with Memorial and Remonstrance, A Virginia Bill for Religious Freedom, or the Declaration of Independence. It is the absurdly broad interpretaion of the Establishment Clause urged by Mr. Newdou that is at odds with the texts and historical facts.





http://religiousfreedom.lib.virginia.edu/sacred/vaact.html

The Virginia Act For Establishing Religious Freedom
Thomas Jefferson, 1786

Well aware that Almighty God hath created the mind free; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burdens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion, who being Lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power...






http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/remon.html


James Madison

Memorial and Remonstrance -1785
*** Quote ***

To the Honorable the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia
A Memorial and Remonstrance

We the subscribers, citizens of the said Commonwealth, having taken into serious consideration, a Bill printed by order of the last Session of General Assembly, entitled "A Bill establishing a provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion," and conceiving that the same if finally armed with the sanctions of a law, will be a dangerous abuse of power, are bound as faithful members of a free State to remonstrate against it, and to declare the reasons by which we are determined. We remonstrate against the said Bill,


1. Because we hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth, "that religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence." The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate. This right is in its nature an unalienable right. It is unalienable, because the opinions of men, depending only on the evidence contemplated by their own minds cannot follow the dictates of other men: It is unalienable also, because what is here a right towards men, is a duty towards the Creator. It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage and such only as he believes to be acceptable to him. This duty is precedent, both in order of time and in degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society. Before any man can be considerd as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governour of the Universe: And if a member of Civil Society, do it with a saving of his allegiance to the Universal Sovereign.....


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