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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:24 PM
Original message
"Reagan defeated communism/won the cold war"
Someone help me with this meme because I was still pretty young when he was in office...
I guess the cold war as we know it if over, but there are still Socialist governments in China, Cuba, Spain, etc...Why is he given all the credit for "defeating" it?
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DarkPhenyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. Kennedy more directly confronted teh Soviets...
...than any Republican President ever thought of doing.
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
2. I seem to remember something about a failed coup.
If anybody's responsible for bringing down communism, it's the Russians.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. Yeah, but the timeline was Communism fell first
Then, a year or so later, the Commie Old Guard tried to give Gorby a "forced retirement" a la Bush and Aristide.

That's when Yeltsin and the Russian People stood off the tanks in front of their building, etc. etc.

Much as I don't like so much of what Raygun did. Much as I understand that senile Raygun was the genesis of Imperial Bushevik Power.

You have to given them (deceit and all) some credit for bringing down the Soviets quicker than they would have fallen otherwise.

If one considers that every year of MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction) was a gun to the head of the human race, then you have to give Raygun (and yes, the Bushevik fucks, too :grr: ) some credit for at least hastening the fall.

Ok, even though I didn't like saying it and I dislike the Busheviks as much as the original Tom paine disliked, King George, I am wearing my flameproof undies and bracing for a scalding...

:evilgrin:
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Your analysis is suspect, Tom
Reagan's massive increases didn't really have much to do with the Soviet collapse (because the Soviets were behind us before the increases even started). Likewise, Gorbachev didn't really want to eliminate a centrally-planned economy within the USSR through glasnost and perestroika, either.

Gorbachev started these reforms because he realized that the Soviet system was due to collapse if they were not made. Likewise, the USSR at this time began to disarm UNILATERALLY -- whether the US was interested in doing so or not -- simply because Gorby realized that they HAD to.

Furthermore, the USSR under Gorbachev denounced it's "Brezhnev doctrine" vis a vis the Eastern bloc, granting those countries the right to self-determination and political systems not directly answerable to the USSR. Like the above-mentioned disarmament, this withdrawl from the affairs of other countries was done without concern that the US was going to CONTINUE to meddle in other countries' affairs.

What Gorby failed to realize was the depths to which the Soviet system had sunk, and that drastic measures (even more drastic than he advocated) were needed. The real collapse of the Soviet system didn't occur until the opportunist Yeltsin seized power, and a system of crony capitalism and legalized mafia was instituted in the place of communism -- accompanied by a drastic reduction in quality of life issues for most Russians.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
27. I don't think you're taking it for what it is...
It was not a detailed analysis designed to counter other (very good) argument people, including yourself have made here.

I don't refute your points, Chris. I generally agree with them.

My point, however, was that Raygun's actions, even if they didn't directly contribute to the downfall, almost certainly sped it along.

Thus, my point is that...in the same way donating even 10 min. of your time to Kerry is "all gravy" because the alternative is not to volunteer at all...thus I am saying that even if Raygun's policies helped bring along the downfall of the Soviet Union by a week, a month, or a year, it too was "all gravy".

Of course a seperate issue is: was it worth it as far as the benefit analysis of what we gained from the downfall of the Soviet Union coming a bit earlier than it normally would have versus what we paid for it, both in National Debt and giving Totaolitarian Scum like Fat Tony Scalia a fang-hold on the neck of our democracy?

THAT is another conversation and one in which I think we would be more in agreement.
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
25. I think Sears & Roebucks also played a huge part
Russian people got to see all the things available in the Sear catalog and wanted some. They felt they should become Capitalist so they could also enjoy some of the better things in life. I think Reagan played no part at all other than befriending the Soviet Leader at the time Gorbachev.
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
3. Read Chalmers Johnson's "Blowback" and "Sorrows of Empire"
The Soviet Union collapsed beneath the weight of its military expenditures and fundamental hypocrisy within its own economy.

Just as we will within the not-too-distant future.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
4. The Carter Defense 5 yr spending increase that Reagan used bankrupted
the USSR - no one mentions that only addition to the 1980 Carter plan was the addition of "Star Wars"

or at least that is the story.

300 US marines killed in Lebanon followed in 3 weeks by the original wag the dog war - the invasion of Grenada to arrest 30 Cubans working to build an airfield, with the loss of only 100 US via air accidents - and they lost the mental hospital that we bombed by accident.

The fack that Reagan was out of office when the USSR folded (Bush 41 was Pres) is somehow forgotten.

Oh yeah, he also paid the right wing central america death squards that killed the nuns because they were too liberal.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
21. Well there was also
THe MX missile system Carter cancelled I believe, and the B-1 Bomber. IIRC.
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truizm Donating Member (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
5. I hate that damn meme...Here's my response on another forum to a mindless
Republican.

Accomplishments:

1. The world court unanimously denounced and condemned the U.S. for international terrorism in Nicaragua. A case of terrorism that was even more extreme than the events of 9/11. The Reagan-US war against Nicaragua left tens of thousands of people dead, the country ruined, perhaps beyond recovery.

2. National debts/Prolonged the collapse of the Soviet Union:
Carter: 700-800 Billion (TOTAL NATIONAL DEBT SINCE THE FOUNDING OF THE COUNTRY!)
Reagan: 3 Trillion, actual figure is 2.5 trillion but this doesn't include the deregulation of the banking industry that cost the country under vice president George Bush (Bush senior) in terms of Savings and Loan failures, etc. because of the corruption and greed that ensued by removing the regulations from the industry that prevented this sort of thing from happening. The U.S. government had to pay out the 700-800 billion dollars to cover the account holders, etc. under FDIC as well as have FDIC take over the banks themselves and take them through bankrutcy and sell them to new investors. So the total under Republican President Reagan was really around 3.3 trillion dollars.)

You would be correct to assume that national security is a major part of that debt. But let's look at national security and the Russians when they were communists. First, the anti-communist religion of the US states that Communism is NOT a viable system and would collapse on its own. Unfortunately, the Repbulicans were so afraid that communism might actually work, they had to perform aggressive intervention to make sure that it failed. The republicans like to claim that the massive and irrational military buildup of the Reagan administration was THE reason that communism collapsed in the Soviet Union. Very laughable actually as the situation was actually the opposite of this. By forcing the communists to build military hardware, it actually promoted a war time economy and gave them something to do and focus the attention of the population on rather than letting them see their own problems. In peace time, their economy had nothing to make and no means for it to work. It is very likely that the Soviet Union would have collapsed sooner had Reagan built nothing as the Soviets had no peace time economy at all and that is the very thing that ultimately made them fall apart (lack of a functional peace time economy). The system simply did not work. So Reagan spent HUGE amounts of money and in effect actually somewhat prolonged an inevitable end to Soviet-communism by doing so. And I have heard this from some well known U.S. economists in talks they gave in the past. They said, at best, the military buildup didn't affect the rate at which the Soviet System collapsed but conceded that in all likelihood, it actually prolonged it by a number of years. So there is a case of HUGE amount of money that bought practically nothing. That means the money was completely wasted and had it been reinvested in the civilian economy, it would have taken off at an incredible rate. But I guess you are one of those republicans that actually believes that communism is a functional system and therefore WE had to destroy it!

It should be noted that in Gulf War I, Bush I authorized the use of many of the weapons built up by the Reagan administration to be used in order to "get rid of them." They had already become obsolete and many were aging and slated for destruction (another cost the government would have had borne as well associated with the buildup). So it didn't really buy anything of lasting value. Soviet-Communism would have collapsed anyway and the U.S. was never actually particularly threatended by them inspite of all the propoganda and hype. The other interesting thing to note is that the Russians and the Americans have never fought a war against each other but have fought on the same side through two world wars which shows what really happens when push comes to shove. It should also be noted that even Stalin did not originally consider the Americans the enemy as we had been allies. He was outraged when he found out that it was the Americans that were spying on him and consequently retaliated and return the favor in kind--so began the cold war. It was always used to justify the bloated war time economy of the industrial military complex well beyond what was actually necessary. I was wondering who they'd come up with after the fall of the Soviets to continue to justify their existence. Bush I talked about a "war on terror" and now it surfaces with his son. Wow! What a perfect enemy to cause the ultimate fear. A war that can never end and can't strike anywhere!

Spending on military is a "COST" in terms of the economy. It is a type of spending, while a necessary evil, is not an investment. And the only "peace dividend" that exists is when things are peaceful in the world to the point you can cut back on spending on the military. Military spending drags the economy down and that is basic economics 101 stuff--it is a known and established fact. Spending on the civilian side of the economy is what makes it grow. Military spending shrinks the economy and therefore is recessionary in nature. Every economist knows that some military spending as A PERCENT OF GNP is possible without a noticeably harmful effect as long as it is fairly light with respect to the economy as a whole. So the percentage of the GNP that can be spent on military is a fairly well understood amount. In terms of actual dollars this translates into depends on the GNP so a bigger economy can spend more actual dollars on military than a smaller economy can even though they are spending the same percentage of their respective GNPs. But unfortunately, the republicans like to overspend on the military to supposedly make the country strong. This is a self defeating proposition because as you shrink the economy by overspending on military then each year as the GNP actually shrinks, the military expenditures continue to become a bigger percentage of GNP compounding the problems and setting up a viscious cycle. As far as how much can be spent on military is determined by a curve to this equation and it is not linear at all. So as military spending goes up, the drain on the economy goes up even faster and the tendency for recession and shrinkage of the entire GNP increase along with the rate of drain on the economy by the military. The drain also has a "cascading effect" forward on future years and it is therefore quite damaging economically to a country to overspend. If military spending is kept in line with the GNP at a low to moderate level, then it will only slow down the growth in the economy but not shrink it. In any case, any spending on military has some negative impact on growth but if the percentage is small enough, then it will not be terribly noticeable except over the long haul.

Therefore, any spending on military in excess of what is necessary is wasteful and not an investment and is actually detrimental in real terms. It should be noted that not one of the weapons built were actually used to bring down the Russian economy. Not one of them built was needed to defend the U.S. against an aggressor either. What war did we fight after Vietnam to contain communism? And the fact that we lost the war in Vietnam, how did that affect anything in the long run anyway? In fact, ultimately, most of the weapons that were built under Reagan had to be destroyed as they became aged and obsolete by the U.S.--another cost tied in with military spending--not to mention the cost in security and for storage in the meantime while the are not generating any economic activity. Unfortunately, the world being what it is, some is necessary but when you spend to the point of recession as occurred for many years under Reagan and was repeated under Bush I and Bush II, then you are cutting your own nose off despite your face.

And if you read David Stockman's book, you would find that David Stockman proclaimed the entire "trickle down" theory of economics a total failure. He stated that they all knew it would not work at the time but what the real goal they had in mind was to make a huge tax cut that would cause a HUGE deficit backed up with HUGE military spending to worsen the situation. This was admittedly deliberate. He said it had nothing to do with making the economy better but would force the issue of cutting the "hated social programs" and they even supplied the line item cuts to Reagan. Surprisingly, Reagan would not make them. This resulted in an incredible deficit and Stockman admitted that where they went wrong was that they had no idea that Reagan would sign off on such a level of fiscal irresponsibility. But this fiscal irresponsibility continued throughout the Reagan years. Oh, and by Stockman's own admission, he said they lured Reagan into the idea of "trickle down" economics because they knew he wasn't very bright and that he would buy into it if they could convince him that it would make the economy get better. So they did but it was for the sole purpose of creating a huge deficit to force cuts to social programs because they gave all the money away so there would be none left. This comes directly from Reagan's budget director. It is a fact admitted to by the Republicans that caused it in the first place.

Oh, and if you think Reagan got the economy going and that is why the U.S. was able to finally balance the budget under Clinton because Reagan did it, then how do you explain the hard recession of the early 1990's under George H. W. Bush? He was president between Reagan and Clinton. And don't you find it interesting in the fact that just as the economy is starting to roll again, Bush becomes president and it goes right down into the toilet again? And "it's the economy, stupid" that got Clinton elected because the economy was terrible under Bush I. So how did Reagan do this? I would nominate Reagan for worst president ever, but then came along Bush.
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displacedtexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
6. As I recall...
this was another example of our intelligence orgs being taken by complete surprise.
Two days before the Berlin Wall fell, a HS German exchange student told me he had talked to his mother, who said the wall was open.

No mention on any news that day. SURPRISE!
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
7. I was never in the service, but my dad was...
Edited on Thu Mar-25-04 12:36 PM by KansDem
He served in the Navy during WWII and the Korean War. When someone says that Reagan defeated communism, I reply:

"Communism was defeated by many people. For example, my dad helped to contain and defeat communism while serving on a US naval ship off the coast of Korea the same year Reagan was making "Bedtime for Bonzo."

That usually shuts them up...;)

edited for tense
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Hey KansDem...I like it!
My Dad served during the KW, also. Mind if I use that line?
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. Of course!
Edited on Thu Mar-25-04 01:03 PM by KansDem
It helps Freepers to "keep things in perspective." :hi:

on edit: "Of course" as in "Go right ahead!"
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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
8. the "cold war" was a scam, just like this war

it has always been about serving the interest of the MIC
and anything that is useful to justify the pigs feeding at the trough
of the public coffers will be used

this goes directly to the myth of self-reliance that the
people at the top constantly push, those very same people
are the ones who benefit from massive defense budgets

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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
9. Communism defeated itself because there was no money in it.
Old joke, but holds true.
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woofless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Still true though,
they fell because they couldn't feed their kids. Period.
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. They fed their kids better then than now, to be honest
The system in the USSR collapsed due to its own ineptitude, but it most certainly wasn't because they couldn't feed their kids. Basic nutrition was NOT a concern in the late days of the USSR -- although it most certainly is NOW in Russia.
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BigBigBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
13. Beats me
as far as I'm concerned, the Mujahadeen, the Pope, Lech Welesa, Solidarity, and some troubling demographic trends really brought down the Soviet Union.

Reagan was just cheerleading.

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Drifter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
15. It's bullshit ...
Communism defeated itself.

In fact many believe that Reagan's ignorant tough guy attitude strengthened their resolve and most likely prolonged the fall.

This is in tune with AWOLs "Uniting the World against us" campaign.

Cheers
Drifter
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Killarney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
16. I think
Reagan just got the luck of the draw by being in office when this all ended. I think it would have ended no matter what.
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SpaceCatMeetsMars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
17. Look up "Gorbachev" That will tell you a lot about what really
happened. He had a lot more to do with it than Reagan ever did. Also Lech Walensa and the other Eastern European peoples. And also Pope John Paul. And Afghanistan played a part. And mostly, as DrWeird says - the whole system was rotten from within.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
19. There was no cold war, there was no communism.
There is no such thing as a cold war. War is war. International economic and social competition is not war.

The Soviet Union was not a communism. It was a totalitarian socialist state.

The Soviet Union was an attempt to very quickly, through a socialized economy, bring russia up to speed with the industrialized economies of the US and Western Europe. Other countries followed suit attempting to do the same thing. The ideas of communism were used as propaganda, and in many cases were genuinly believed by the leaders as a far off goal, but in no country did anything resembling communism exist. As one might expect, trying to rapidly industrialize a nation the size of russia wasnt easy. The US decided it didnt want a country that size with that many resources anywhere near a modern industrialization, and it was scared by the way that underdeveloped countries were turning to the soviet union as a model of development. Countries that did so were either opting out, or taking away the possibility of the US model, where underdeveloped countries would allow US industry to come in and use thier resources. So the cold war was created between countries following the Soviet/China model and aligning with those countries for support, and the industrialized western nations and the countries they controlled.

If Russia succeeded in not only modernizing, but gathering a large economic cooperative with other countries modernizing, it would have spelled the end of US economic domination in the world. It turns out that the US really didnt have anything to fear, and the cold war was probably counterproductive. Rapid militarization feuled a soviet economy that didnt have much other fuel.
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russian33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #19
37. K-W, have to agree with you..
..Communism in it's pure form never existed in USSR, nor does it exist anywhere else...it's a Utopia.

Having said that, I've lived in the gool ol' Union of Soviet Socialistic Republics until late 1991 (through the coup of 1991 and all). And prior to the late 1980's it wasn't all that bad. There were steady jobs, affordable housing, free healthcare, education (quality stuff by the way). What Gorbachev tried to do didn't work (at least not how he planned it), and with Yeltsin coming to power, the whole country fell into an oblivion. You can't change a country of that size over night...to go to bed with thoughts 'Communism is good, capitalism is bad!', and next day flip-flop the entire nation. That created chaos, and who benefited from that? The oligarchs, mafia, people connected to upper echelons of the government.

But like I said, I lived it, and for the average citizen, life prior to 1988-89 was pretty good. Yeah, we didn't have a car, but we didn't need a car. And all that nonsense about not having TVs, or VCRs (at least people stopped asking me that lately), is just BS. One person actually did ask me if I've ever seen a TV before I got to the States...geesh!
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #37
46. Education
I studied on Soviet math & physics textbooks when preparing for college admission exams (and some more after getting in). They kicked ass.
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russian33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. JCCyc..i agree
I always found that weird...education system in USSR was more superior to the one here..when I came to the states I went to 9th grade, and we were doing problem in Algebra that I studied in 7th grade in Russia...also, I think education in USSR was more well rounded (you were required to take Geometry, History, Geography, Art, etc, etc, etc...)...the choice wasn't left up to the student (of course some people can see that as a bad thing, I didn't).
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Analytic Geometry by Kletenic
Physics by Saraeva
Analysis & Calculus by Demidovich

Know any of those?
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strategery blunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. How did they teach history in the USSR?
We in the US assume that it was all evil propaganda, but I'm willing to venture that there is more evil propaganda in American history curriculums than there ever was in the Soviet system.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #19
54. There certainly was a war
It was fought in Korea, Viet Nam, Afganastan...

Although the US and USSR never shot at each other directly, there was certainly a war fought through surrogates.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
22. Nonsense of course.
The economic system sucked it was not sustainable, plus the Afghan War hurt them severely. The Carter Administration sucked them into Afghanistan by providing support to the mujahadeen.
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Yeah, well we all know how good that last part turned out...
The Carter Administration sucked them into Afghanistan by providing support to the mujahadeen.

:grr:
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Still a good move
It hastened the collapse of the Iron Curtain.

In hind sight the real failure was not aiding Afghanistan in the aftermath.
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. Ask the war-torn Afghans how good of a move it was
I'm sorry -- I just disagree. The Afghan government prior to the Soviet invasion was pro-Soviet, but it was NOT a Soviet puppet state.

Say what you want about authoritarian socialism, in this case it most certainly WAS an improvement over the previous state of affairs, which was a feudal system of warlords (kind of like what we've brought back there again). It was rapidly helping the Afghans to modernize, and it was the first government that actually respected the rights or women.

Of course, we couldn't have anything like that, because it was COMMUNISM, by God!

I can't ever say that causing war, death and destruction is ever a "good" thing....
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #33
44. You said
"I can't ever say that causing war, death and destruction is ever a "good" thing...."

The suffering of the Afghans didn't start in '79 as far as I know. The reason there was a war, was plainly because Afghans felt it was a justified defense of their country.

You make it sound like nothing good resulted. The collapse of a totalitarian regime that caused pain and suffering over its 60-70 years of existence all around the world, must be weighed in the balance. As I said we didn't fill the vacuum in Afghanistan and that was a terrible mistake.
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Your perspective of all this is much different than mine...
The reason there was a war, was plainly because Afghans felt it was a justified defense of their country.

You do realize, of course, that a vast number of the mujahadeen were NOT Afghans, do you not? The movement at its outset was primarily a "holy war" fought by people from neighboring Muslim countries against an "infidel" regime. Of course, I readily acknowledge that a majority of Afghans took up against the Soviets after they invaded -- but prior to their intervention which was precipitated by the US backing of the mujahadeen, most Afghans were not.

The collapse of a totalitarian regime that caused pain and suffering over its 60-70 years of existence all around the world, must be weighed in the balance.

Please cite examples of where the USSR exported "pain and suffering" outside of its immediate vicinity in Eastern Europe. They didn't do that in Korea -- that was the result of a backlash against Quislings from the Japanese occupation who came to rule S. Korea, coupled with the involvement of the Chinese fresh off their own revolution. Speaking of which, the Chinese movement was quite separate from the USSR, and it bore the brunt not of Soviet totalitarianism, but of the cult of personality surrounding Chairman Mao.

Furthermore, how you can say that actions by the USSR caused pain and suffering on a GLOBAL scale anywhere close to the ruthless pursuit of markets and resources by the United States throughout the Cold War and in the immediate aftermath is somewhat perplexing. In short, you have raised the spectre of the Communist bugbear as your rationalization for anything unpleasant in the world of which we have been a part, and when exposed to the light of fact, it proves to be just that -- a spectre.
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sybylla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
24. The downfall of comunism in Russia was inevitable, imho
This won't be helpful to you in your arguement, but in the spring of 1980, I traveled to Europe with others from my German class. All I knew of the USSR I learned from James Bond movies and fanatical presidents shouting that we needed to hate those commie bastards.

One evening we were in a dance hall in Austria enjoying a folk-dancing show when two young men seated behind us tapped us on the shoulder and asked us in broken English if we were Americans. I recognized the accent immediately as Russian and in my young mind was half expecting CIA agents to surround us and arrest us for even speaking with them. They told us that the Russian people wanted to be friends with the Americans and gave us pins for the Moscow Olympics (the US had recently announced the boycott). I realized then that we were living under a wall of propaganda in both countries. I also realized that for these men to say these things to us with such sincerity, the Russians had already beaten communism in their minds and hearts, they just needed to reform their government.

From that point on, Ronnie Raygun's constant fearmongering over the USSR had no effect on me. I knew the Russian people didn't want the cold war any more than we did. I knew that the downfall of the soviet government would take place sooner or later. Neither Ronnie nor George could do anything real to help it or prevent it.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #24
42. Reminds me of a song I had years ago.
"Ivan's got a wall of red around his house, nobody can get in or out.
Running out of food for ammunition, running from the darkness...
sending out scouts.

Wayne's got a wall that is much more subtle, warheads formed since he was born.
Watches Ivan through dark glasses, hands on his gun...
waiting for the storm."
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Avis Donating Member (113 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #24
47. Afghanistan
My son wrote his high school senior thesis on "Quagmire in Afghanistan, the Fall of the Soviet Union" - he found lots of material to support the idea that this was indeed the downfall of the soviet union. He got the only A! Long before Reagan, they were falling, we just weren't aware. Some commentator on tv compared that to Iraq. Iraq was crumbling, we didn't really crush the empire, it was already gone. My son's paper really made some people rethink the Reagan story - it was nice to see.
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leodem Donating Member (84 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
28. Can anybody help me out on the Bushes and Communism...
I don't understand, the Republicans and Bushes hate communism so much then why are they so friendly w/ China and nasty towards Castro? Is it just getting the Cuban vote in South Florida?

I haven't done much research but I never understood why you never hear Repugs mention China when they talk shit about communism and Cuba.
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Scairp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
29. Bunch of hooey
Edited on Thu Mar-25-04 01:09 PM by Scairp
Gorbachev did much more to hasten the end of Communism. He introduced Perestroika, the restructuring of the Soviet bureaucracy and economy, and glasnost, resulting in more openness. The idea that Reagan had a significant hand in this process is nothing more than an urban myth perpetuated by the right wing thugs hoping to put him up for sainthood.
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historian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
30.  he didnt "beat" them
He spent this country into the ground until gorbachev had the intelligence to realize that spending ones self into oblivion was hardly beneficial or practical so he changed the USSR from communism into a form of capitalism (still struggling with itself).
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
31. Reagan tripled the national debt grandstanding against a dying regime
This is absolutely ridiculous, and always should be rebutted. Just because this amiable nobody strutted and blustered, the Soviet economy was careening toward rupture, and many in the west knew it. If he hastened it at all, it was surely at a ruinous cost to his own country.

Only simpletons can really say such a thing with a straight face, and they should have it pointed out to them that panic and showboating frenzy make us look dangerously irrational to the rest of the world and net nothing.

It would have been better for the place to blow apart on its own, instead of after the buildup to a ludicrous 600-ship navy and "Star Wars" giveaways to greedy contractors incapable of creating such wonders. It made us look like the fantasy-ridden thugs that we were at the time and are again.

When presented with this, always turn and fight. He basically piled ingots on a doddering old man to crush him to death a little early, and in the process, saddled my and your children with the debt. After you've done that, "out" them on their implication that Democrats were secretly collaborators and enablers of the dreaded Communism, and remind them that Truman, Kennedy, Johnson and Carter were all vigorous cold-war containment partisans, and IT WORKED.

Simplistic idiots who watch too many movies think and do such things, not sensible grownups.
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swinney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
32. Reagan increased pentagon budget but not for Soviet threat.
President Carter had increased Pentagon budget by 50% in four years.

His last five year plan proposed a "real" 5% increase which was considered excessive by experts.

Reagan told his staff-"I will not let Carter be known as the Defense president". He proposed a 13% increase which was unreal. It helped get 187% increase in Debt.

Soviet Union was changed dramatically by Gorbachev. No one else.

His Peristroika and Glasnos did it. Period.

Conservatives gave tried many things to eulogize Reagan who was a brain dead affable dunce.

For 40 years Reagan spoke thousands of times and said same 3 things over and over.

1,cut government
2.cut taxes
3.defeat communism.

He failed miserably. Did not defeat communism.Did not cut govt. In fact, he increased it by 80%. Cut taxes for rich and increased for all others.

Check this comparison with Clinton.Comparing Democrat’s hero-CLINTON—versus Republican’s hero--REAGAN
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.JOBS—grew by 43% more under Clinton.
2.GDP---grew by 57% more under Clinton.
3.DOW—grew by 700% more under Clinton..
4.NASDAQ-grew by 18 times as much under Clinton.
4.SPENDING--grew by 28% under Clinton---80% under Reagan.
5.DEBT—grew by 43% under Clinton—187% under Reagan.
6. DEFICITS—Clinton got a large surplus--grew by 112% under Reagan.
7.NATIONAL INCOME—grew by100% more under Clinton.
8.PERSONAL INCOME—Grew by 110% more under Clinton.
SOURCES—Bureau of Labor Statistics (www.BLS.Gov)--Economic Policy Institute (EPI.org)—Global & World Almanacs from 1980 to 2003 (annual issues)
www.the-hamster.com (chart taken from NY Times)
National Archives History on Presidents. www.nara.gov

Please submit comments to cwswinney@netzero.net or P.O. Box 3411-Burlington NC-27215



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Zinfandel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #32
43. Every president until the cold war was over during Pappy Bush's
administration increased military spending every president increased Pentagon spending...inculding Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan and then Bush. They all had something to do it not just Reagan.

But Reagan didn't do anything during his eight years except fuck over the poor, the unions and the environment, so they the Republican lie and try and hold on this cold war myth, that Reagan ended it. BULLSHIT!!!
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mac56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
34. Reagan was a rooster taking credit for the sunrise.
nm
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daa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
35. The truth is in between
In reality, presidents of both parties fought a concerted effort against communism. 50 years of congressional support made it possible and Reagan was just lucky enough to be in office when it happened.
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argyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
36. One theory went that we bankrupted the USSR by outspending them on defense
I guess Nazi Germany should have tried that tactic.They bled them white and were beaten by them.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
38. He was standing on the street corner when it happened.
Anybody who lived after the 1998 wall destruction and saw the decay of the old Soviet Empire's remains, would easily see that a collapse was inevitable.
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kodi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
39. the pt. is missed: 45 years of bi-partisan foreign policy defeated USSR
there was never any US bi-polar attitude towards the soviet union. both democrats and republicans together confronted international communism, soviet style. it was done from 1945 to christmas day 1991 when gorbachav signed away the soviets.

the claims that the US arms build up in the 1980's broke the back of the soviets is like saying that a single blow in a boxing match going a full 15 rounds defeated a foe. no, it was the sustained pressure on US government resources by both parties for 45 years to confront soviet communism that helped cause its demise.

personally, i think soviet communism was murderous. i am glad it is gone.
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eurolefty Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
40. "pantyhose defeated communism"
Seriously. "Pantyhose defeated communism", is what one of my friends always says. :evilgrin:
She grew up in the USSR and her view is that finally everybody just got tired of not having the nice western "luxury items" like pantyhose, and that enabled Gorbachev to make the changes that he did...
When I was young we used to smuggle designer jeans to USSR. (It was a good way pay for your vacation.) So, I think there's some truth to this. :evilgrin:
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #40
48. Hi eurolefty!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
41. Ted Turner opened up the world when he used that satellite to share news
that was broadcast across most borders.

Give regular citizens information and any suppressed society will revolt.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
50. holy cow
this is the longest thread i've eve started!

Thank you all for your well thought-out insights and experiences
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fedsron2us Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
52. The capitalist world tried to destroy the Soviet state
from the moment it was born. The campaign began before the Red Terror or Stalins purges. What the West hated about the USSR was not the brutal and repressive way the regime killed millions of its own citizens, but the socialist underpinnings of its ideology. The property owning classes in the USA and Europe feared the spread of proletarian revolution. It is the abiding nightmare of the rich that one day the poor will rise up and take their money away from them.
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