Please help me respond to this.

[mac56]

E-mail from a RW friend. I just don't know enough about Somalia to reply intelligently.

"The situation in Somalia is a prime example of Clinton's waffling and inability to act. Let's put aside for this discussion politics. Let's consider the actions of the president in the context only of terrorism and diplomacy. In Somalia Clinton withdrew our troops and direct humanitarian aid because we lost less than a company of Rangers. The situation grew worst and the muslim world perceived this decline as the fault of the US for having left. Of course, had we stayed we would have looked like imperialists and not a humane, democratic nation looking to rid a country without a government of violent and despotic warlords. The outcome then of Somalia is a growing irritation with America. We started something and then stopped. We gave up on Somalia and to them they see it not as a punishment for a warlord but as a slap in the face of all Islam. This, of course, was combined with the first Gulf War - which is ironic because we were once again saving a nation from a despotic warlord. It's a no win situation for the Bush admin which is sad because at least in the case of Iraq it looks as though we are committed to helping to establish a democratically elected government."

[rockymountaindem]

1. I don't know much about this either

but have you noticed that they're always saying "it's not about why we invaded Iraq, that's in the past and we need to look to the future"?

If that works for them it can work for us: "Why should we care what Clinton did" The past is past and we need to focus on the failures of the current administration."

[Homer12]

2. Blame Clinton Defense

Tell your friend that you won't discuss this topic unless he's willing to blame GW Bush for anything in the forgien plicy arena.

[DarkPhenyx]

3. Point out that the Adminsitration has already said...

...if the Iraqi people elect a gov't we don't approve of that we will not had over control of the country to that government.

[historian]

4. I would answer this way

The US has a history of "chasing" drug cartels who suddenly become non-cooperative (wont share the loot) Noriega is a prime example. The other reality is this though - not since world war 11 has america won a war (grenada pop 600 and illegal undeclared surprise attack on Panama not included).
Talking about who sent troops where and why is irrelevant - what is of major importance is that the military is based on world war tactics - large armies attacking. This method failed in Somalia and is failing now in afghanistan and iraq.
Last point - we are not fighting partisans who will attack and then vanish - we are dealing with religious fanatics and patriotic people who are finally fed up with our constant interference and are ready to die for their beliefs.
How can you scare an enemy who is willing to himself up in order to make a point?

[bobbieinok]

5. there was a great deal of repub pressure on Clinton to GET OUT

he was constantly attacked for the US being in Somalia and losing soldiers

everyone immediately 'forgot' US went into Somalia under Bush I with the constraints he set up

Clinton was blamed for what Bush I had done but DID NOT spend all his time blaming but tried to rectify the situation

MAYBE DEMOCRATS SHOULD HAVE EMPHASIZED 24/7 THAT SOMALIA AND WACO WERE OPERATIONS SET UP BY BUSH I

[ET Awful]

7. Somalia was handed to Clinton by Poppy Bush

Once people started dying there was public outcry and Republicans began blaming Clinton for the deaths of the US soldiers, he withdrew troops based on pressure from Republicans and the public.

You might ask your right-wing friend to explain Reagan's reaction to the bombing of the marine barracks in Lebanon. (Run Away! Run Away!). Maybe he can explain that to you along with the fact that contrary to longstanding US foreign policy Reagans administration not only removed nations from the list of known state sponsors of terrorism (i.e. Iraq), but also engaged in negotiations with terrorists vis a vis the Iran-Contra affair which consisted of selling weapons to Iran in order to secure the release of hostages held in Libya by pro-Iranian terrorists.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[never cry wolf]

16. Whaaaaa????

Stop what bloodshed? In the past year tens of thousands of Iraqi's have shed their blood and it doesn't look to be ending any time soon. The sanctions were working.

And, ABSOLUTELY EVERY thing that is wrong this admin blames on Clinton.

[RobertSeattle]

6. Somalia and Iraq...

That's not an apple and an orange analogy... it's a kumquat and a Watermelon.

BTW - I believe we lost 18 Rangers in Somalia. There was bipartisan agreement that we should leave if you go back and look at the history. (Bush Started it, Clinton accepted it, after the worse period was over, we left)

[murielm99]

8. We sent troops in there to protect UN peacekeepers.

So there is a big difference.

[BOSSHOG]

9. bush 1 send troops to Somalia after the 1992 election. Why?

Muslim world "perceptions of weakness." Throw reagan and Lebanon in 83 and the deaths of hundreds of marines.

[atreides1]

10. Your Friend Is An Idiot

The situation in Somalia was left over from the Bush1 administration,
and Clinton was trying to find a way to bring about a ceasefire between the warlords. The Rangers were taken down when they were sent in to arrest the chief warlord of the area, Aidid.

They were ambushed, by the way it was "My God is Better Then Your God"
General Boykins who sent them in, I guess his "God" wasn't better that day.

The reason that it took so long to get the Rangers out of the trap, was the total lack of armored vehicles, and having to wait for the
allies on the ground to come up with an extraction plan.

I have read somewhere that Clinton, then SecDef Les Aspin, and Joint
Chiefs Chairman General Colin Powell, did discuss the subject of
providing armor suppport for the US troops on the ground. General
Powell was against it, because he feared it would only escalate the
problem. So not knowing any better, and listening to a decorated
military man, Clinton and Aspin went along with it.

It was soon after "Blackhawk Down", that Les Aspin resigned, and shortly after that General Powell retired. But all of the blame for this fiasco has always been dumped into the laps of Clinton and Aspin
neither Powell or Boykins were ever slapped for their part in this.

I'm so glad that your friend has such a low regard for the lives of military personnel that he would shed their blood for his own RW agenda, but what can you expect from a PNAC/BushCo supporter.

[zbdent]

11. Some choice words about the sitch in Somalia

For this and others like it, check the Congressional Record online at http://thomas.loc.gov/r103/r103.html

Look for the title in 10/5/1993: THE SITUATION IN SOMALIA (House of Representatives)

"Mr. SOLOMON. I thank the Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, yesterday I spoke at length on the situation that is taking place in Somalia. I am going to do the same thing today because there are so many unanswered questions concerning this situation which is taking the lives of American soldiers today.

I am taking this special order to express my concern again, my profound concern, about the ongoing situation in that place called Somalia. The events of the past 72 hours have taken a fearsome toll: 12 American lives have been taken, 12 dead; 78 seriously wounded; and perhaps as many as 8 being held hostage in a place called Mogadishu.

Mr. Speaker, this carnage, this madness must stop. The so-called rebuilding of Somalia is not worth the price of one American life, much less the carnival of death that has been displayed on our television screens, such a despicable situation.

When American troops were first sent to Somalia 10 months ago, their mission was supposed to be humanitarian in nature and it was supposed to be short term in duration. Few Americans had any quarrel with such a proposition because we are a nation that cares about people, particularly starving people. Indeed, our troops performed their intended mission with professionalism and with skill, as they did in Desert Storm under a different kind of mission. They should have come home, mission accomplished, when that mission was completed. And it was completed.

Now they are confronted with an altogether different situation, an altogether different mission. Our troops have been thrust into a primitive and hostile environment and are now being expected to come up with the solutions to Somalia's problems, solutions which the diplomats and politicians around the world have failed to produce.

Mr. Speaker, call it nation-building, call it stabilizing the situation, call it anything you like; this new mission has nothing to do with the training that our forces have received, the equipment at their disposal, or the reasons for which they were sent there in the first place."

Repukes calling for the removal of US troops after 18 soldiers killed. Gee, weren't more than that lost so that W could parade around a memory-deficient Kelly Lynch? (Whoops, she's not so marketable since reality was revealed).

[terisel]

12. Somalia Initiated by Bush in December, 1992

President Bush sent 25,000 US troops into Somalia on December 4, 1992, a month after he lost his bid for re-election and the month before he would end his term of office. Why? the stated reason was a U.N humanitarian mission due to famine.

Clinton entered office with a deployment in place. Clinton asked for more UN support, cut the number of US troops down to 4000 plus and then withdrew US troops after 18, I believe, Americans were killed. A humanitarian mission could not be carried amid open warfare. He had the choice of asking us to allow fuller engagement of our troops in Africa to fight a war or withdrawal. He chose withdrawal. (As you might note in Kosovo he relied on air power to achieve military objectives).


In regard to withdrawing American troops: President Reagan, in his first term in office deployed a contingent of Marines in Lebanon. In October 1983, 241 Marines were killed in an act of war- a bombing directly against the Marines in their camp. Reagan ordered the Marines withdrawn from Lebanon.
He basically had the choice of asking us to allow full engagement of our military in the Middle East war in Lebanon or withdrawal. He chose withdrawal.

The following site provides good information on the war in Lebanon.

<http://www.wesleyan.edu/gov/us_marines_in_lebanon.htm>

A question every president has to ask is: when and where do I request that we put our troops at risk ? What can be achieved?

[Bandit]

13. The Republican Congress refused to fund the UN

This started as a UN mission and after the Pakistanis got slaughtered the US decided it was time to make a military move against the war lords. If the UN had complete funding and military backing from the US this would never have become a US issue for Clinton to deal with. He was forced into a political move that was not a good one IMHO.

[rinsd]

15. Republican Congress?

"This started as a UN mission and after the Pakistanis got slaughtered the US decided it was time to make a military move against the war lords."

Yes, but the GOP "revolution" didn't take place until 94. Are you referring to Senator "No" holding things up?

"If the UN had complete funding and military backing from the US this would never have become a US issue for Clinton to deal with."

If there were US troops involved, Clinton would be involved.

"He was forced into a political move that was not a good one IMHO."

It was a tough one. He inherited a situation that was a best dicey and usually was just plain chaos. It wasn't the soldiers getting killed that prompted the withdraw, it was the dramatic footage of a couple of them being dragged through the streets.

[sangh0]

17. Hit em back with Reagan in Beirut

Shortly after Hezbollah launched a suicide bomber attack against a Marine barracks in Beirut, killing more than 200 American soldiers, Reagan invaded Grenada. In Al Franken's book, he says that this sent a message to the terrorists - "Attack us and we'll invade Club Med"

After a short time, Reagan then withdrew our forces from Lebanon.