Women's rights are in danger, and nobody seems to care!

[lupita]

I am surprised that our choice rights are in such danger.
Congress just passed a bill that makes it a crime to harm a fetus...
Is anybody worried?????


Lupita

[INTELBYTES]

1. Yeah, I worry more about the babies rights though.

...and don't even go there with the "freeper business". I'm pro-life.

[noiretextatique]

4. any concern for their mothers?

are you pro-life for them as well?

[Warpy]

15. I saw a friend die from an illegal abortion

Women will always try to defend their lives from unwanted pregnancy. Laws that make this very personal right illegal will simply make the remedy unsafe by taking it away from doctors and putting it into the hands of amateurs.

Antiabortion laws kill women.

You are entitled to your opinion, but realize it is only that, an opinion. Your opinion ends where your own body does.

[Sandpiper]

17. You're pro fetus

n/t

[slinkerwink]

22. yep, HONOR the FETUS, SUBJUGATE the Mother, let the Mother DIE

at the expense of the FETUS.

[Sandpiper]

25. The anti choice movement regards women

as nothing more than incubators.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

76. Honor the Fetus, Hate the Child, Subjugate the Woman

;-)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1254111

[RC]

27. How many unwanted kids have you adopted?

[Ladyhawk]

36. I'm pro-life, too; however,

I don't trust the Republicans with this issue. They only care about the fetus until it's born, then to hell with the "welfare queens," squeezing out babies for welfare bucks. And to hell with single mothers, too. Interesting how they will make a single mother give birth, then give her next to nothing to help raise the child.

[redqueen]

106. Well put

We should be concerned about this because we know how much they really care about life.

[catzies]

111. But is your "pro-life" stance also "anti-choice?"

Or, IOW, would you work toward/vote for making the choice for a safe abortion illegal, even with your admitted distrust of the Republicans (who are the elected majority now)?

I agree 100% with the stance you took in your post, however I'm for safe, legal, available abortions.

And what's your stance on the death penalty if you're "pro-life"? Many who call themselves "pro-life" reveal quite an illogical position there.

TIA.

[terisel]

39. Why would you worry more about 1 person's rights over another?

Do you think a woman is not valuable as a human being?

[kiahzero]

65. No, your views just indicate a belief that women are incubators.

Only existing to give birth to men and other incubators.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

75. Well, do you have issues with women?

Because I'm pro-life and pro-choice. If you think the potential of life which the fetus represents trumps the mother's, then you're not pro-life.

[Nobody]

77. Will my life be of equal value

to that of a fetus after I go through menopause?

Or am I a valuable human being now despite being able to get pregnant?

[tedoll78]

87. You might want to actually read the Constitution.

Unborn babies have NO rights. Zero. Zilch. Na-da.

Amendment 14: "All persons BORN or naturalized.."

In a legal sense (not incidentally the only sense that matters here), a fetus is neither born nor naturalized. And there is no clause in the Constitution saying "if the laws here make you feel icky, you can conveniently ignore them."

Sorry to sound cold, but it's there in black and white.

[dawn]

113. Ok...

So if you are pro-life, then you should also be for the mother's rights. Many women died during illegal abortions prior to Roe v. Wade.

And for babies already born, especially in poverty. I just wish the pro-life movement would focus more on that.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

2. yes very much so

though i have never used that particular right. i wish people who dont like abortion just would not get one themselves...

[Sulldogg]

9. That sounds like

I wish people who think stealing is wrong, to just not steal...

[terisel]

41. If someone else controls your body you are not a free person

If you are not a free person you are a slave. If you are a slave you are not a citizen.

[shimmergal]

88. Exactly!

Compulsory pregnancy is involuntary servitude.

[Yupster]

105. Compulsory pregnancy?

People are getting forced to get pregnant? Sounds like the lebensborn program.

[terisel]

42. What does taking property have to do with this issue ? n/t

[terisel]

44. Are you consistent an opposed to in vitro ferilization ?

Are you opposed to the termination of any embryo.

Are you opposed to the freezing of embryos and their imprisonment in a frozen state?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

47. no it doesnt

Stealing infringes on someone elses right, a real human being. as long as youneed to feed off me to live you are not a real human being and thereby my rights are more important

[Sulldogg]

55. So at what point...

does a baby become a real person? six months?

Do mentally challenged people ever get rights?

I agree with ytour rights trumping the rights of the fetus, but do your wants, that is where the question lies....

[La Lioness Priyanka]

58. when it has shows some more ability than a chicken

seriously people are talking about fetal stages where fetus respond like flatworms/

[kiahzero]

66. Look at the definition of death.

A logical derivation of when life begins:

Axiom A: Death, medically, is defined as when certain brain functions cease.
Axiom B: Death is the negation of life.

By A and B, life begins when the aforementioned brain functions begin.

IIRC, this is at roughly 6 months into the pregnancy.

[Sulldogg]

82. WIth that supposition...

Do you support abortion only until those brain functions are noticeable?

[kiahzero]

85. Support no-questions-asked until that point

Health & safety of the mother, rape, and incest afterwards... IIRC, this is the current standard.

[tedoll78]

89. This is a very easy question to answer.

Read the actual text of the Constitution. Amendment 14.

"All persons born or naturalized.."

According to the legal definitions, a fetus is neither. A fetus has no naturalization papers. An unborn fetus - from 1 second to 9 months - has no legally-binding birth certificate. Thus, a fetus has zero rights under the Constitution. It's cold, but the wording is as plain as day.

I try to discourage the procedure, and I encourage adoption as a good alternative, and I've succeeded in all tries but one. But I will not basically hold a woman down to a hospital table and force her to undergo a medical procedure. She's been born or naturalized, and she has the right to not be medically assaulted and battered.

[Sulldogg]

93. My reservations come in..

Around the very grey area, and I'd rather have a defined set of criteria to base doctors decisions on, then very difficult ambiguous situations.

If you draw the line strictly at birth, when does birth occur? Is it leaving woman's body entirely? Is it leaving the uterus? When it takes a breath?

And even more so, medical science is pretty clear, as it currently stands, fetuses can live outside the womb from some point usually around 24-27 weeks and on. So from then on, the legal status of that fetus is purely the whim of the mother?

If so, say your girlfriend is pregnant and won't get an abortion, if you purposely assault her, by say punching her in the stomach and killing the fetus, should you only be held responsible for the minor assault?

[shimmergal]

91. A baby becomes a real person when it's born.

Too simple for you?

I could argue and spin for quite a while, pointing out that any society only gives "human" status to those whom it can afford to.
Where many babies die early, usually there's a ceremony some time _after_ birth -- be it one month or a year, which recognizes the child as part of the community and family for the first time.

But birth is the most important transition point; I don't see what's so difficult about accepting that.

[mstrsplinter326]

3. I am.

As a man, it's hard to imagine such a choice. Maybe that's why men are passing this law. Women voters: ITS TIME TO VOTE FOR WOMEN. PLEASE!! Do it for my sake.

[Lindsay]

5. Not just worried, but outraged.

That's why it's so vital to get as many progressive Dems as we can voted into office this November. We've GOT to stop the right wing freaks from declaring government ownership of women's bodies. (Not to mention their destruction of the Constitution and our other freedoms.)

[theHandpuppet]

6. Yep...

I post links to NARAL whenever and wherever I can -- like now for instance!

http://www.naral.org

Other links:

http://www.NOW.org
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/
http://www.saveroe.com/march/index.php

[BabsSong]

7. abortion is just a small part of what's going on

This administration is very anti-woman. There are so many things fought for by women and minorities that are ready to be re-defined. The reason no one seems to care is the reason the dopes of this nation don't care about the whole shee-bang on all fronts that is collapsing. They think it's just some "show" called politics. It isn't real---now Donnie Trump, baby, that's real. And reality TV, sweetness, now that's real. But real life isn't fucking real!!! They assume that what they have from the struggles of so many was just always there and they assume they are going to die at the age of 101 in the same La-La Land they live in now. There lives are on the border of being "wait a minute, THAT can't happen in America". Maybe then they will start to think.......oh wait a minute, stupid me....they will just adapt.

[lupita]

10. we are seeing our rights disappear right under our noses!

I am catholic, and for a long time I was pro-life.
Now, I realize I can't shove down religion down other women's throat.

This is a civil rights issue. We need to stand up to this administration and fight.
If they win another 4 years, you can kiss your right to chose good-bye!

[brook]

8. Everything's...

in danger. And it will be as long as we piss away our right & responsibility to vote - and rid this nation of the theocrats and corporations who have taken over. It's very difficult to get the average citizen to pay attention when it isn't their ox being gored, or had you noticed that?

[theHandpuppet]

14. It's the apathy that gets to me the most

So many folks who don't vote, say it doesn't matter or they aren't interested. I don't know how you reach folks like that, but having done door-to-door registration drives the apathy can be truly depressing.

[brook]

50. Yes, it can.

And it's true that the younger generation has no concept of how hard what they take for granted was to come by - or at what price.

If I could make magic, I'd remove such issues as abortion and 'gay marriage' from government domain altogether. Some things have simply been made political because there's *gain* in it for the power-hungry. There are, in my view, life issues that are between an individual and their conscience...doctor, minister, loved one, family...and no one else. (I'm old - and remember the days when sex, bank accounts, religion and politics were not public discussions. In some ways that was a 'good thing').

Edited to add: Ann Richards just made a resounding plea for everyone to attend the March for Women's rights(I don't remember the date, sorry) - she said that no present or future government had the right over women's bodies. This was at the Democratic Unity Dinner.

[Cleita]

53. Me too, brook.

So many things in life aren't anyone's business except to the persons involved.

[no_hypocrisy]

64. Sunday, April 25 in D.C. This could be our last chance to change the

course of women's rights.

[fudge stripe cookays]

100. April 25th in Washington DC.

I'll be there!

For any of you in Dallas, we're also having a unity march here near Turtle Creek on the 24th. PM me for details.

If we can each talk one bored high school senior into getting out and reclaiming her rights, that will be a lot of girls awakened to the problem!

[klyon]

122. I agree removing this question from the domain of government

is a good idea. Possibly threw education and better birth control methods this question will become moot, IE no unwanted pregnancies, no abortions required. Problem solved.?

KL
edited for thinko

[matcom]

11. no, they are all more interested in seeing "The Passion"

and talking about it here :eyes:

[lastknowngood]

12. This is my most mature answer I have. If the government can tell you

what you can do with your own body then you have now become at the mercy of your government masters and you will soon be living in a
Hands Maid Tale. Idiots who make the arguments about the "fetus's"
rights assume the mother gives up her rights to her body and her life when she becomes pregnant, I disagree to the extreme. No one nor any part of government has the right to violate the body of a free citizen. I will not change my opinion nor do I care about anyone else's compassionate conservative ideas. Thank and good night.

[duhneece]

31. Can't add anything to that except for "Amen, Sister"

nt

[diamond14]

13. young women/men MUST fight this....we older people fought for the

right to an abortion, after THOUSANDS of young women DIED and were permanently injured from lack of proper medical care.....

bush* has effectively shut down most birth control planning clinics, by failing to prosecute those who BOMB and KILL medical doctors...and failing to protect those clinics from AMERICAN terrorists, harrassing desparate women on a daily basis outside clinics....

young women/men are sitting on their duffs in front of their TV's and failing to take any action to protect those rights that WE older people fought for and gave to them....


it continues to amaze me how little the younger people care....I was at the New York city Pro-Peace rallies, and there were certainly not enough younger people around at all...even though the DRAFT is breathing down their necks...I didn't see EVEN ONE young person vote in the Democratic Primaries in Alexandria Virginia, during the entire 5 hours that I handed out Kerry campaign materials outside the polling place on Duke street.....

the world will soon come crashing down for our young under bush*...and they don't care....it's a very big change from when I was young, and we fought hard for the right of women to work in decent jobs, the right to obtain abortions and D&C's in clean medical clinics, the right to have rapists prosecuted, the fight to end the Vietnam war, the passage of bills to create the Environmental Protection Agency, the fight to pass the Safe Drinking Water Act, the fight to get Veterans medical treatment for their war injuries....and many other fights....

today's young just don't care...there's not much more anyone can do....we are now at the point of just watching their world fall apart, for their own lack of caring....

[Sandpiper]

21. As one of the younger generation

I can tell you that most young people don't care because they've never had to fight for anything. They take their rights for granted, and that's why the fundie fascists are having such an easy time whittling them away.

[diamond14]

74. "they've never had to fight for anything"??? real ignorance...there

are SO MANY real serious rights on the table NOW that should be fought for BY YOUNG PEOPLE....

your remarks are calloused and reflect typical "I don't care...there's nothing to fight for anyways"....if you can't find something to fight for in this bush* era, then you haven't even tried to open your eyes....you must watch lots of TV, and did you vote in the primaries?

[Sandpiper]

81. You obviously missed what I was saying

I was commenting as to why there's a general feeling of apathy amongst the under 30 crowd. I wasn't referring to myself. I've been politically active since my teens.

So spare me the lecture. I don't need some crotchety old fart waving their finger in my face.

[diamond14]

97. rather than do anything, you argue by calling people names...typical

TV stuff...

It is like the bush* attacks on Richard Clarke....obviously, nothing to attack with, so just 'name-call' some nasty stuff....

And just like condi's attacks on Richard Clarke, your name-calling does nothing, except degrades yourself...

[fudge stripe cookays]

101. Amen, I see what sandpiper is saying....please don't take it the wrong way

The 60s were an amazing time. Those of you who were out in the trenches then fighting and struggling did such a good job of ensuring rights for others that the generations born in the 70s and later never realized how good they had it. They just never had a chance to really appreciate how the rights were obtained.

I thought about this a lot during the late 90s. As a person born in 1966, I was raised in a country where we never experienced any kind of hardship up close and personal--war, famine, anything like that.
Kids of my generation had everything handed to us on a silver platter. We never had to undergo a draft, we never had to experience any kind of hardship like our parents or grandparents did (read: Depression, WWII, Vietnam, Civil Rights). When 9/11 happened, I thought, "Well, here it is. This must have been what my generation will have to deal with."

We became lazy. And now that the generation after mine has become lazy and bored watching MTV and playing Sega, they've never had to worry about anything the scope of which they're experiencing now.

It is our job, those of us in our 30s and older, to remind them that these freedoms did not come without a price, and they are now in danger of losing them.

I was so upset about reading of an upcoming draft several months ago that when I saw 3 teenage boys eating where I had lunch, that I walked right up to them and began talking about the future draft, and what they thought about it. They went from woo-hoos! when I asked them about Bush to stony silence when I mentioned a draft and told them the consequences of one.

We have to get out of our comfort zones, and begin confronting these kids with cold hard, reality. Wherever we are. The more of them that know the truth, the better. Talk to complete strangers. Educate them. Get them interested in Democratic causes. Make them listen.

Now you two be nice and make up.

[havocmom]

103. On a bus heading to a pro-choice rally in Phoenix in the late 80s

a college aged women on her way to the bathroom to a 70-something couple sitting in front of me: "I'm just so glad people like you decided to come along for this important march..."

The somewhat bemused older women smiled, patted the hand of the younger women which was resting patronizingly on her shoulder, and replies sweetly, "My dear, we have been doing this for 50 years. It is good that you showed up to join us". Her husband stifled a giggle.

We need to not bicker among ourselves. Those who have 'been there, done that', need to lead in a way which is not condescending. Those who are young and new to the trenches need to offer energy and enthusiasm. We all need to respect one another and get to the task at hand.

[Sandpiper]

102. Blah blah blah

Why when I was your age...

[klyon]

123. same to you

grow-up
KL

[bobbieinok]

38. I see college women and blacks who seem to think

the way things are now is the way it's always been and always will be

they seem to have no idea that

...within my lifetime people were beaten and killed for the rights of blacks to vote

...and when my mother was born women did not have the right to vote

but then when I tell students that there were no pizza places around when I was in high school they freak out: 'what did in the world did people do/eat then?????'

[slinkerwink]

16. I care, and it bothers the fuck out of me

:-(

[arcane1]

18. I shudder at how this law will eventually be interpreted

I think it was Bartcop who questioned what would happen to a woman, 8 months pregnant, who goes to work one day and slips on ice in the sidewalk.... did she endanger the fetus by going to work? :shrug:

[Sandpiper]

19. Why does the anti choice crowd

Think that once a woman becomes pregnant, her body has become public property?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

59. i have never understood that

all this morality while its still a fucking fetus...yet when it comes to provide welfare state for the child: NADA

[mulethree]

20. Baby on board

Hmm so before you hurt someone, you need to check ....

If they might be pregnant but not "showing yet" Since that would double the penalty.

If they are of the proper race, ethnicity, orientation Since it could be a hate crime.

Be sure not to threaten them, or offer not to hurt them in exchange for anything since that would be terrorist.

How about just "don't hurt anyone"

[jamesconway]

23. Not really, not here

Just allows extra punishment for those like Scott Peterson.

Don't you folks get it, the ReTHUGS do this on purpose. They push us into (in a fashion) defending murderers in so they can tat us with gulit-by-asosciationg.

[HornBuckler]

24. Hmmmm A Thought!

So, Smoking During Pregnancy Will Become A Crime? (I Think It's Pretty Sad, Actually But It's Still Legal) Drinking While Pregnant? (Again I Disagree But It's Not Illegal).

So One Has To Take It Further - Eating McDonalds While Pregnant? Failing To Addequately Excerice? Where Does The Line Get Drawn?

[Sulldogg]

26. Why does one...

have to take it further.

It is already illegal to beat your kids, or do other acts that are known to physically or mentally harm them directly. Yet no one who supports not poisoning children automatically thinks you should be punished for serving them fatty foods.

[HornBuckler]

28. Do You Think This Will Make Smoking In Utero Illegal?

I Do

Not Sure If It's On The Same Plane As Beating The Crap Out Of Your Kids, But Is It On The Same Level As Spanking Them? Who Is To Say? As Soon As You Start Losing Freedoms, It Snowballs.

[Sulldogg]

30. It is possible

but even if it does, I don't see that as an open door to expanding it liek you said in your previous post.

[HornBuckler]

32. I Politely Disagree

"Harmful To A Fetus" Could Be ANYTHING, And I believe It Will Be Extrapolated.

[Sulldogg]

34. But it isn't

extrapolated to children now, what basis would it be to extend it for fetuses.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

48. your kids are different from a fetus

[Sulldogg]

52. I agree...

I was just taking issue with the sippery slope implications the previous poster was putting forward....

[La Lioness Priyanka]

54. no actually you took issue with my initial posting as well

[Sulldogg]

57. Yes

But that was because I thought your argument was a very weak one, and I still believe that.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

60. i think your response was just as weak

[Sulldogg]

83. Fine...

But your argument only has merit so far as you assume the premise that abortion is not killing a life. And if you are already assuming that, then the argument about legislation is a moot point.

Since the anti-abortion movement doesn't accept that premise, the argument is basically worthless. It basically saounds liek, murder shouldn't be illegal, if you don't agree with it, just don't kill people. If you wish to have that discussion with someone other than the 'choir', a more substantive and less straw-man argument is necessary.

I know not all DU'ers are pro-choice but we are all on the liberal side of that spectrum, so if your argument appears weak here, it is even less effective against the thugs on the other side.

[Yupster]

109. Agree sulldog

The argument "If you don't like abortion, then don't have one," is a ridiculously weak argument. It's the same as "If you don't like murder, then don't kill anyone.

There are certainly stronger arguments to be made than that one.

[Sulldogg]

119. Thanks n/t

[smirkymonkey]

68. Exactly - besides being totally

anti-woman and f**ked up, this law sets a precedent which implies that the female body is now property of the state. If the pukes are in office for anthoer 4 years (god forbid) I shudder to think how far they will go with this.

Already, a woman is tried for murder by refusing a cesearean section. This is a wedge for further legislation to curtail the rights of women..."Sorry, girls, but you can't go to work because you might get stressed and harm the fetus" ...It's so wrong and I am so angry. I just can't believe this is happening. :grr: :mad: :grr: :mad:

[shimmergal]

92. Horn Buckler, I'm not even sure drinking during pregnancy is so bad.

As long as it's done moderately, of course.

I think the PC medical establishment is afraid to do a good comparative study on this. But it's obvious that France and Italy, where many women drink wine routinely with meals, don't have a huge proportion of people retarded from Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. If it's true that any alcohol during pregnancy is dangerous, that's what would happen.

[Yupster]

107. that's how the pendulum swings

It will go too far one way, then the other, but that's the way democracies or republics work.

[Babel_17]

29. I've wondered

if we'll ever see a time when pregnant women will not be allowed to do things like go skiing. Will any activity that has any hypothetical risk to a fetus be illegal for a pregnant woman to do?

Will an estranged husband/father be permitted to get a court order to force a woman to stop some activities?

The implications are painfully obvious. Women will be made subservient to the patriarchy of government and religion.

Imagine putting men in jail who engage in activities that could arguably damage the DNA of their sperm. Never happen.

[Sulldogg]

33. I think it is

a far stretch from this to making illegal actions which will not reasonably be considered likely to harm a fetus.

[Babel_17]

37. I see it in connection

with a broad based strategy to advance a political/religious agenda that would resemble something out of The Handmaid's Tale.

I agree with you as to the likelihood. But I do think there is a powerful minority that is, in degrees, working to this type of an end.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099731/

http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/read.php?ID=3340

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00005PJ6P/ref=ase_imdb-adbox/102-9437677-6272120?v=glance&s=dvd

[terisel]

67. There are women in jail now for this. Haven't you heard ?

This woman was convicted and jailed. Poor black, no treatment, yes she took cocaine. No there is no proof that is why her child was stillborn.
Women will be jailed; children will be thrown into foster care.
This law must be overturned.

<http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1007/p02s01-usju.html>

[riveter]

69. If you are concerned make voices heard

Yes, women's rights are in danger. Four more years of Bush will make legal abortion nonexistent - all the more reason to join NARAL or Planned Parenthood. And, attend the March for Women's Lives in Washington DC on April 25th. If you can't attend the March get vocal about the issue in other ways. Write letters, join local groups educate people on voting for candidates who won't take our rights away from us.

[oldcoot]

35. Good point

I have been wondering the same thing myself because of the murder case in Utah and now the U.S. Congress passes this ridiculous law. Pregnant women are soon becoming community property. Women of reproductive age need to start paying attention and start voting for pro-choice candidates.

[Ysabel]

40. i care and i'm very upset...

and angry that congress passed this law...

this is terrible...

[terisel]

49. Take heart. Unfortunately we have to fight for our rights as

human beings. it is discouraging to know that people in power are working to take away our status as free humans. The fact is we have to get the arrogant cowards out of power this year. It is going to be a struggle but I believe we will succeed.

The Bush faction hates women. The so-called religious right hates women and I think we need to face and accept that reality and get to work.

We are standing at the brink of the third wave of feminism in the USA. The first won us true citizenship-the right to vote. The second won us additional rights including workplace rights. Women always worked in the US-but usually at menial low-paying jobs. In the late 1960s the classified ads for jobs in New York City were still seperated into male and female. (Yes most of the jobs offered in the female column were non-mangerial clerical with abysmal pay).

It didn't change by chance. Women had to fight for it and had to seize every opportunity.

[riveter]

73. Third wave is here

The Third Wave of feminism is already here and we are all going to DC for the March on Washington. I suggest we all attend.
Jennifer

[riveter]

72. There are meet ups for the March

Hi,
I understand you are upset. I am too, There are Meet Ups all over the country. I suggest you join one. I can forward info to you.
[e-mail]

[Solomon]

43. My view on it. As a man I have to respectfully defer to the judgment of

women, on the issue of what a woman does with her own god given body. Since any personal belief I have on the issue wouldn't matter anyway, I don't bother taking a personal view. It's nobody's business but the person whose body it is.

Would we have the state own our bodies too? This is an issue best left to the judgment of women. I would like to believe, that a woman owns her own body, as much as I would like to believe, that I own mine.

This new law they're trying to do is a classic knee-jerk reaction, to some media thing. I agree. This sets women up. The state is taking your body from you.

[Woodstock]

71. The wisdom of Solomon

:)

[Kool Kitty]

90. Bless you, Solomon.

Very well put. :thumbsup:

[Vladimir]

95. Spot on mate nt

[Yupster]

110. But the state

tells women what they can and can't do with their bodies all the time.

You can't kill yourself.
You can't take illegal drugs.
You can't prostitute yourself.
You can't walk around naked.

People act like the state has never told people what they can do with their bodies before.

[Solomon]

115. I knew somebody would eventually come up with this nitpick.

Of course the state exercises some authority with respect to every person's body. But that doesn't mean that just because it does, you have to give them complete control. Otherwise the "inalienable rights" thing is meaningless.

I don't know where you get the "you can't kill yourself" law from, since it makes absolutely NO sense. What you gonna do, try a corpse?
Can you give us a link to any case where a person was sent to prison for trying to commit suicide? (And don't give me any mental illness cases).

With the examples you have given, a woman could choose to do those things anyway, despite the state authority. But how would you like to be a woman seriously hurt in an automobile accident, and have doctors fearful of saving your life because you're pregnant?

People agree on what authority they will give the state over their bodies. And where that authority exists, due process also exists.

But make no mistake. The state can never own a free person's ability to take their own life. What's sad about it is, we ought to expect more autonomy from the state, than the mere ability to take your own life.

At any rate though, it's like I said, I am a man, so I can't say other than what women can tell me about it (and as men, we could never understand important considerations such as the female instinct)
so I have to go with what they feel. After all, the human race has been here for thousands of years. I think females clearly know what's best for the nurture and care of mankind and, for thousands of years, they have done an incredible job, despite being treated like property. Now people say there are too many people on the planet.

For the life of me, I don't understand the whole abortion thing. Not only has it been a practice among all peoples since the dawn of time, but we ourselves, every morning, eat billions of eggs. I mean what the f**k is that!! We eat fish eggs, chicken eggs, and if you look at nature, so many many many "abortions" for life to continue. It's always the young of every species, who is more likely to fall prey to the predators. A fact of life.

Now I know this sounds harsh, cold and brutal, but I don't see how you can limit a woman's right to control her body except maybe to say, that at the point at which the fetus could survive outside the body without artificial help, a woman can be prevented in terminating a pregnancy. But it's got to be without artificial help because with the current advancements of science, hell they could accuse me of murder for spilling a sperm, since they could theoretically mate it with an egg in a dish, and raise a body from it.

I not only respect a woman's right to be an equal person, but I respect and value their womanly instincts, and that they have expertise that should be blended and not subordinated.

This subject has been an endless source of argument between me and my father, who, armed with the nonsense in the bible, is always saying that "man came first, and the woman is a helpmeet".

My parents think I'm not the man I ought to be, because I follow my wife's lead sometimes. But we are equals.

[Crowdance]

45. Not at all surprising--the ignorant prevail

DU has shown me that even the Democratic Party harbors those who would deny women their human rights. Look around you; they're visiting this thread. I shudder to think of the kind of hatred that fuels these sentiments.

Women have lost our rights. We've gone round the bend. The misogynists are in charge--and they are everywhere.

[Catfight]

99. Women have Rights?

Please, when women continue to wear an invisible burka by not voting and caring about these issues, it won't matter. I on the other hand vote in elections that no one shows up to, just because I respect the fact that some women died for my damn right to vote! As far as the fetus hs more rights than a living breathing women, women have continued to allow second class citizenship, until we actually ban together with NOW and demand to be treated equally and respectfully in charge of our entire bodies, our rights will be removed one by one.
I bet most women think it's perfectly fine that the Coby Bryant scumbag trial can bring up past sexual history of the acussor, because she's accused him of rape! It's okay that medical records be released to intimate women from having abortions!
Michael Moore did a skit on "Male Apartheid," where he poked fun at the stupidity of women who consistently vote for men, white men, to perpetuate their own acquiescent place. You ask do I care? Hell yes I care, I don't think a man has any say so what I choose to do with my body. This is a personal decision that has no place in politics, but try to persuade those dumbass subservient women who bow their heads at church and vote for Bu$h, who will put another fright wingnutt on a court.

[catzies]

108. Hmmm..."Invisible burka." Nice turn of phrase.

I'm going to use that, if you don't mind. Very thought-provoking.

[Gloria]

46. I care...but this crap upsets me so much now that I have to tune it out...

I marched twice during the Bush I, Reagan disasters, donated, donated, donated. and still do.

But I can't deal with it anymore, I'm so upset and disgusted.

[terisel]

62. You need to take a break. You deserve it.

You have done your share, probably more than your share, and need to enjoy life a little.

I don't watch television and rely on hearing some of the news from people who can still stomach it. Bless those of you who do. Then I do write some letters and provide other people with some information.

I always have 2 "pet" posting sites where I gently raise opposing viewpoints to the madness that is often posted on them. I just go a few times a week and don't overdo it. Often just providing a few facts is helpful to people being inundated with false information. I get information here, check it out, and share it. One person across the country calls me a few times a week to get information she can share with people there.

The things I have learned here from many of you have been useful. You may not realize how influential your comments are. I guess I should say thank you.
Hey, Thanks!

[Cleita]

51. I saw that and gasped.

I don't entirely disagree about the fact that attacking a pregnant woman should carry a higher crime violation, however, this law seems to open the door for the fringe radical righties to try to ban abortion again.

[brook]

56. That's the pitfall.

However, Laci Peterson's mother was in DC lobbying for the bill because it assures Scott facing 2 counts of murder. Actually this bill is redundant in Ca. where it's already a separate crime to kill a fetus. A slippery slope, imo.

[Djinn]

61. isn't it almost impossible for

women in large parts of the US to get an abortion anyway - no doctors willing to perform them? I would have been protesting that situation long ago.

There's womb nazi's everywhere unfortunately - one of our local fov's is Fedral Health Minister Tony Abbott (known as the Mad Monk as he once trained for the seminary - and left the mother of a child of his born out of wedlock to deal alone and put the kid up for adoption) he's been faffing on recently about how the numbers of abortions in Aust is a "disgrace" and it's often about the "convenience" of the mother....damn all these feminist women getting preggers all by themselves! it's not like we've got huge numbers of fathers protesting their partners decision, seems pretty f*@cking convenient for them too!

I work opposite a day surgery where (amongst other things) they perform abortions, each wednesday there's a sad little protest of no more than 3 people - ALL men - it's hard to drive past and go into work each day without stopping and asking the old git (who's often there by himself) when the last time he was pregnant.

[Zorra]

63. Worried? Why worry? With these happy smiling rich fascist pig

good old boys watching over me, telling me what I should do with my body?

I'm frantic.
Kick 'em out!Kick 'em out!Kick 'em out!Kick 'em out!Kick 'em out!Kick 'em out!Kick 'em out!Kick 'em out!Kick 'em out!

[Woodstock]

70. Only 38 opposed it - I want to know which Dems voted for it

I bet I can name one - Little Tommy Mouse AKA Tom Daschle. He has GOT to go already!!!

And I have a hunch the women didn't vote for it...

[Catfight]

104. This picture better be in a Kerry commerical!

I will never forget this picture! Not one person of color or a women of all things. White fat cats making law on a womens body! This needs to be out there!!!!!!!!

[lazarus]

112. You got one right

In addition to Tommy, we also had Bingaman (D-NM), Breaux (D-LA), Carper (D-DE), Conrad (D-ND), Dayton (D-MN), Dorgan (D-ND), Landrieu (D-LA), Miller (D-GA), Nelson (D-NE), Pryor (D-AR), Reid (D-NV), and Rockefeller (D-WV). And, btw, one fo those was a woman. And three of them have been discussed as VP candidates (Landrieu, Nelson, and Rockefeller).

[Woodstock]

114. That's why I could never go with Landrieu

as VP. Forget About It. It's like a female equivalent of Clarence Thomas. Why bother.

Thanks for the list, BTW.

[lazarus]

117. My (sort of) pleasure

That's my personal boot-after-2004 list. We have to take those folks out in the primaries.

If they're not in safe states, then they shouldn't be in the leadership. That's the biggest problem with Daschle. Our Senate leader should be from a safe state, so he doesn't have to worry about the middle and right in his elections.

[HEyHEY]

78. Thanks for keeping this hot topic civil folks

:-)

[redqueen]

118. "Fetus Fetishists" is civil? n/t

[Yemp4734]

79. No

Not at all. If they try to use this to stifle abortion it will be shot down in court ASAP. It's just BS legislation to appease the repub base.

[Jane Austin]

80. I care, but

I've got to tell you that unless we get Bush out of the White House, not a single one of our rights are safe; not to mention the fact that as we plunge into a debt we can't get out of, unwinnable wars, and more and more interference in our daily lives we will be pretty well finished as a country.

Job One is to defeat Bush, and that means electing Kerry.

Period.

[REP]

84. Not The Fetus Fetishists Here

Some of us have been very worried about what women being relegated as nothing more than containers for the Holy Fetus, though some here seem to welcome it.

[Susang]

86. It's like "The Handmaid's Tale" was an instruction manual

For some people and not frighteningly prescient fiction. :scared:

[SendTheGOPPacking]

94. Yes, this is a setback for pro-choice rights

[libertad]

96. Go to Washington on April 25th and take a stand.

[SendTheGOPPacking]

98. I wish I could

I can't get away. Too far for me.

[fudge stripe cookays]

120. Then find or organize a coordinating rally in your area.

They're going on all over the U.S and the world the same day. IF there isn't one, help to organize one.

Show some solidarity. Get out of your comfort zone.

[SW FL Dem]

116. I am pro-choice but

to be honest, the issue is not at the top of my list anymore. I used to donate to NARAL but these days all my extra money is going to Kerry, MoveOn and the DNC. My kids are adopted and I have to look out for them.

[BonjourUSA]

121. When religion gets in the law the freedom gets out

[pippin]

124. I am pro-reproductive responsibility

Trouble with the wing nuts is that while they decry abortion they are also against sex education, and allowing women to access to birth control. They want abstinence which is ridiculous particularly with kids and teens. I have had enough of right wing parents who storm schools that try and bring sex education to the kids. But are they going to enlighten their kids? Ofcourse not!

This is also an issue of empowerment for women--women having a say about whether to have a baby or not, and ofcourse the freeper types are never going to allow women any sort of voice.

We are so pathetically backward in regard to this issue in comparison to other countries.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

125. And even when people are responsible - accidents happen

Know a lot of people who have gotten pregnant while using IUDs, diaphragms, condoms, combinations of all the methods and yes, even the pill (I got pregnant while using the pill).

In addition, I know of 5 women who were told that they were infertile, could NEVER, EVER get pregnant because of various health problems and all 5 got pregnant (this includes one woman who has never had a period in her life because her ovaries were so screwed up).

I also know of women who have gotten strokes or had other serious health problems happen while using the pill.