Whew! Had a huge fight with my Dad over Bushco last night

[maggrwaggr]

I'm 42, my Dad is almost 70. He was a career military officer and spent his career developing top secret weapons. He was in Vietnam and saw stuff that he doesn't want to talk about. He's a lifelong republican, but he's also an engineer, and most of his life formed his own opinions about things, so I always enjoyed hearing his point of view even if I disagreed with his conclusions.

But in the last 12 years he's become just a ditto-head and spouts Fox News and Rush Limbaugh propaganda. He also married an uneducated fundie woman who constantly chatters away about her fundie beliefs and drags him off to Bible studies at 5:30 in the morning and stuff like that.

For a while we've had a deal to simply AVOID talking about politics. But last night we were on the phone and he wanted to talk, so, well, I talked. I let it all out, what I thought of Bushco, I just vented. He listened, then he said "I listened to your rant, now you're going to listen to mine". Then he tried to refute what I was saying.

We basically had a big fight about it and I didn't realize he was angry until he basically hung up on me, when I started going on about how we need to get corporations out of government.

Anyway it was all rather upsetting and kept me awake last night and this morning. It's so weird to see this guy change the way he has, from a guy who thought for himself to a guy who just spouts right-wing talking points.

What's annoying is that he doesn't seem to recognize propaganda for what it is. You'd think a military guy would recognize propaganda.

It's so bizarre to me how he continues to support Bush. It's very nearly like delusional schizophrenia. He has an explanation for EVERYthing. For instance, Richard Clarke? Liar. Paul O'Neil? Liar. Karen Kwiatikowski? Liar?

WMD's? Hidden in Syria. United Nations? Needs to be burned to the ground.

Basically everybody who disagrees with him is a liar. Facts mean nothing.

I realized I should have asked him what he thought of David Kay. I wonder how he explains THAT one. I'm sure he's lying because ..... well there's a reason of course. Disgruntled about something.

Anyway I know other DUers have problems with their families because of this stuff so I knew y'all would understand. I just had to get it off my chest.

I want to say to him "If somebody videotaped Bush having sex on the 50 yard line of the superbowl with an eight year old boy, SOMEHOW you guys would blame it on Clinton!"

But I didn't.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

1. Time to go back to your original deal not to talk about politics. n/t

[maggrwaggr]

3. yeah no kidding!

I know he's not gonna change my mind, and I'm not gonna change his. He wanted to hear what I thought of Bush last night, I told him we shouldn't go there, but he wanted to, so ......

I guess he asked for it.

Still, it's distressing and just sorta sucks. He's a good guy, he's just .... well, like I said it's like some sort of schizophrenia.

And he thinks I'm out here in So Cal having parties with Barbra Streisand or something, thinks I must be smoking dope with Jane Fonda or something, he really believes that it's ME whose mind has been warped by the people I'm "following".

I want to tell him "hey, if I was a follower, I would have followed your ass into the military".

[noahmijo]

5. Same situation with my dad

Although I'm not a fully mature adult at 22 my father at 55, still views all liberals pretty much as being nothing more than dirty hippie protestors who spit on the flag and want to raise your taxes to pay for unecessary social programs.

He gets his political dose mainly from Micheal Savage and other strongly Conservative associates he hangs out with. Funnily enough I'M more religious than my father is in the sense that I'm a church going Catholic where he's pretty much an atheist who hates religion and not only believes abortion should be legal but mandatory in alot of cases. Just for the record I'll point out that I'm pro-choice despite that I would prefer that I never be in a situation where I'd have to watch my girl have one.

Anyways put simply despite that my dad is roughly 15 years or so younger than your dad they both lived through the 60's your father in the war, my father was in college at the time, so it's possible they have this image that liberals are those group of leftover 60's hippie types that want to burn down Mickey D's.

After numerous attempts to show my father facts and things every so often I do get his ear and he thinks, but after a round of Savage or some other Conservative radio show he's all bent out of shape and starts calling Kerry an asshole, as if he never listened to me the day before.

Overall point: these two men have been living in their ways for far too long to try to really change their point of view. If you want to try to discuss politics then instead of picking every subject from terrorism to the environment pick one that your father's not passionate about and start with that and just sort of SLOWLY uncover the truths that your father nor my father would'ver ever thought to look for given their staunch ways.

[swinney]

14. spit on flag

no proof.

Dad is overlooking national fervor on Vietnam War. Like Iraq.
70% in poll after poll were against the war in Vietnam.

D raise taxes and spend. true conservatives.

In 1980 we had a debt of 917 Billion.
In 2002 it was 4,000 Billion.

Reagan increased debt by 187%. Record by far.

Reagan increased spending by 80%. All time record.

Reagan increased deficts by 110 %. Record till Bush jr came to town.

Democrats create Wealth (for all) and Jobs. Let Dad read this.

--------------------SHOCK & AWE------------------------
----------DEMOCRATS CREATE WEALTH AND JOBS-----------
1.From Harding In 1921 to Bush in 2003
2.Democrats held White House for 40 years and Republicans for 42.5 years.
3.Democrats created 75,820,000 net new jobs -- Republicans 36,440,000.
4.Per Year Average—Democrats 1,825,200---Republicans 856,400.
5.Republicans had 9 presidents during the period and 6 had depression or recession.
6.DOW—grew by 52% more under Democrats.
7.GDP—grew by 43% more under Democrats.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comparing Democrat’s hero-CLINTON—versus Republican’s hero--REAGAN
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.JOBS—grew by 43% more under Clinton.
2.GDP---grew by 57% more under Clinton.
3.DOW—grew by 700% more under Clinton..
4.NASDAQ-grew by 18 times as much under Clinton.
4.SPENDING--grew by 28% under Clinton---80% under Reagan.
5.DEBT—grew by 43% under Clinton—187% under Reagan.
6. DEFICITS—Clinton got a large surplus--grew by 112% under Reagan.
7.NATIONAL INCOME—grew by100% more under Clinton.
8.PERSONAL INCOME—Grew by 110% more under Clinton.
SOURCES—Bureau of Labor Statistics (www.BLS.Gov)--Economic Policy Institute (EPI.org)—Global & World Almanacs from 1980 to 2003 (annual issues)
www.the-hamster.com (chart taken from NY Times)
National Archives History on Presidents. www.nara.gov

Please submit comments to [e-mail] or P.O. Box 3411-Burlington NC-2721

[Grins]

36. Didn't "spit on flag..."

And didn't spit on soldiers either. Both myths put out by RW repukes.
The ones who treated soldiers badly were the ones who sent them there in the first place. Nixon's thugs went after the "peace-niks", many of them vets, in the 70's - and spit on them!

On edit. Link: <http://www.vegsource.com/talk/flame/messages/97799.html>

To your comment: "In 1980 we had a debt of 917 Billion. In 2002 it was 4,000 Billion. -- you can add that in March of 2004 the national debt is a whopping $7,143,561,843,000 and climbing!!
<http://www.uwsa.com/uwsa-usdebt.html>

[noahmijo]

38. To both "Spit on flag" comments

Thanks for the info, nice of you to add sources as well, that's always appreciated, but I hope it was clear that I'm not the one who needs convincing that liberals aren't the true anti-Americans here.

I'd show these sources to my father, but the problem is his mind would start to wander about other stuff he has to do in his day (work related) by the time he got to the end of the first paragraph.

[HydroAddict]

55. Thanks for national debt link Grins...

Looked and Booked.
Thanks again.

[shanti]

40. your dad is NOT that old

he should know better.

[formernaderite]

50. Abortion is only a wedge issue for the GOP to keep the fundies...

...in line. I go to alot of working class bars (hey, I'm a contractor) where guys in the building industry, cops and firemen hang. Alot of them in my state are non-voters, because it's a safe democratic stronghold...but I'd have to say, they're overwhelmingly Bush fans. However, abortion is not a deal breaker for them, and most of these guys are pro-choice.
I know, I've tried that argument to bring them over to the enlightened side. What is an important issue...GUN rights. Something I happen to totally agree with them on. Democrats could make HUGE inroads with these groups, if they would leave the GUN rights issue alone.

[Yupster]

83. Good advice fean

Some things are lots more important than politics.

[Frances]

2. You have my sympathy

I have a very dear older cousin who has forwarded pro-Bush and/or anti-Kerry emails to me. I have written polite emails to her refuting the information she is sending me, but my cousin hasn't responded to what I have written.

[Raenelle]

64. My sympathies too.

The way they think, it's like it's a parallel universe, or Bizarro World--up is down, bad is good. But when you care about the person whose thoughts and feelings are so divorced from yours, it's just harsh. My husband's mother (and father, though less fervently for him) is a rabid Limbaugh-listening Rethug. She hates Unions, believes working people shouldn't make as much money as they do (just takes money from businessmen who deserve it so much more), is prejudiced against people of color and of course homosexuals, thinks the US is always in the right, that we are too generous in our foreign aid,

and especially,

get this, the reason people are poor is because they don't pray correctly. :puke:

She tells my husband things like "You've got to just trust the president." That's so "Heil Hitlerish" my husband can barely sputter back an answer. They hate Clinton, think his lying to the American people was the worst scandal in US history. :puke:

He loves them, of course, though it gets harder and harder for him as they make less and less sense to him.

Anyway, my sympathies.

[prolesunited]

94. Huh?!?!?

"the reason people are poor is because they don't pray correctly" <-- I have never heard of such a thing. So, like their god makes people poor to teach them a lesson. Worship me better and I'll reward you. :wtf:

I guess that absolves them of ANY responsibility for taking care of their fellow humans. What did they think Jesus's teachings were about?

[Mari333]

4. Im sorry that happened/

I know . This country is divided like its never been. People choose what they want to hear, like your dad. Some people still cant wrap their minds around the fact that Vietnam and Iraq are fraudulent wars that soldiers are sent to. Your dad sounds to me like he never could do that, if he touched that truthful part inside of him that knows full well he was used and abused by the govt of the USA, it might be so painful he cant deal with it. He still has to think there was some reason for it.
Vets who do finally recognize that this war is a lie, that Vietnam was a lie, that the US govt uses them for cannon fodder and doesnt give a shit about them, and wake up, are our best allies.
I dont speak to most of my family, I wont allow them in my life, my 2 brothers, my sister all of them are out of my life.
Only my 77 yr old mother is allowed in my life, she knows Bush is an asshole now.
((hugs)) hard times for all of us.

[rumguy]

6. it's like "cold" civil war

[smirkymonkey]

72. A "cold" Civil War is exactly

what it is. Did you just come up with that?? Touche! It's such a great way to describe it!

I can see it on the cover of a news magazine soon: "America's Civil Cold War - when will it end?"

[NinetySix]

87. That's a fantastic analogy...

...probably the best I've heard until now to describe the severe state of political discord in the United States. I'm gonna use that one...and pretend I'm the one who made it up!

[SharonAnn]

67. Yes, it's like alcoholism and being in a family of them. You just

have to learn to "detach" from them and their destructive beliefs and behaviors. And when I can't "detach", I just have to avoid them.

In a way, being a recovering alcoholic myself, I learned that I have to avoid certain situations and certain people if I'm going to stay sober. If I let my buttons get pushed, I might start drinking again and I don't want to do that.

Also, an interesting observation I made in the last few years was with several friends whose behavior became more and more right-wing, absurdly so, when it hadn't been before. After a couple of years of this, the right-wing behavior progressing all that time, they were diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease. I'm curious about whether or not there is a connection between the two. Maybe beginning to lose intellectual capability makes the black/white, right/wrong, good/bad scenarios more appealing? Maybe losing some reasoning power makes one more fearful and thus more susceptible to Rush Limbaugh?

[smirkymonkey]

73. Exhibit A - Ronald Reagan...

maybe you're on to something there!!

[Zookeeper]

77. I agree. Someone should do a study! n/t

[NinetySix]

88. Perhaps that's true to some extent...

...but not universally so. My 82-year-old Grandmother is suffering from a form of Parkinsons disease that is not characterized by tremors, but by dementia. But true to her history as a lifelong Democrat, she rails against Bush in her more lucid moments, trying through her diminished language abilities to express her frustration and rage at an imposter who even she can see right through.

It's interesting, isn't it, that the elderly, despite any physical or mental infirmities they might have and the fears that come along with them, have seen so much history in the last century that they can see as clearly as they do. While they of all people have the most to be fearful about, typically they refuse to lead their lives consumed by fear, preferring truth no matter how frightening it may be to the most comfortable lie.

[alcuno]

7. We know too much so we tend to beat people over the heads with

information. You might want to consider calling your dad and saying you're sorry (even if you are not.) Here are my two rules for talking politics with Republicans.

1. Just say you have questions. (The one that got my dad was when I said I didn't understand why the US government flew the Bin Laden family out of the US following 9/11.) Keep repeating that it just doesn't make any sense to you. Use the "broken record" technique.

2. Stick to a simple (narrow) set of thoughts. We have a tendency to move from issue to issue.

[RedSock]

12. bin laden flights

powell has admitted this happened.

do they now call powell a liar?

[maggrwaggr]

46. Richard Clarke explained, quite well, the Bin Laden flights

in his testimony on Tuesday

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

82. Is there a link about this? I am wondering what was said about this.

I figured this specific issue of flying the Bin Laden family out no questions asked would make shrubbie look pretty bad.

[maggrwaggr]

91. if anyone's put up a transcript to Clarke's testimony ....

it'll be in there.

He basically said that the Bin Laden family (those who were in America) wanted out, as they expected they might find themselves a bit disliked based on the fact that their name is Bin Laden. And that Saudi Arabia requested it.

Clarke said it was exactly the same way we would remove embassy personnel or whatever from a country where things were going pretty badly and where our people might be in danger.

He said the request was made and he's not sure who made the request but it had to come from very high up, like from the president or somebody else. And he said that they should ask the FBI to check it out before they let them go and (I think) as far as he knew that's what happened.

[alcuno]

92. Here's a link to the commission's website.

Click on Clarke's submitted testimony.

http://www.9-11commission.gov/hearings/hearing8.htm

[FizzFuzz]

42. thanks alcuno

this is good advice.

I mostly don't talk about issues with Repukes if they are the blustering type, because I get tongue tied and can't think of what I want to say. This frustrates me because in my head, I KNOW, based on loads of facts that I've read, that the wingers are sick lying, murderous, thieving brownshirts. But I just can't think in an argumentative situation, can't bring a single fact to mind, so I end up stuttering...

"But..but...liars! evil!...BAD!..."

I know this one woman; I thought she had a lucid moment when the evilchimp started the gay-hate amendment talk. But once again, she's right back to making sure she gloats at me "we're republicans!" every chance she gets. I avoid her. She's real good at spewing an endless stream of pro-war anti-arab talk that sounds impressive.

[alcuno]

79. I've spent years doing contract negotiations and I still get tongue-tied.

I've tried promoting the "questioning" technique with people but they tend to want to pummel their opponenet instead of win the argument. Think about what lawyers do; they ask questions. What are defense attorneys trying to do? Raise doubt. That's what we need to be doing more of; raising doubt.

[Jim__]

8. My father voted for Bush in 2000

We basically haven't talked politics since the 60's. Too many fights over it - we could never get passed that.

About a month ago, I was on the phone with him and he asked something like, "What do you think about Bush?"

I told him I couldn't stand Bush.

So he said, "He'll never get re-elected."

I told him I thought he might. He asked, "Are you kidding? After the garbage he's pulled?"

It sort of amazed me.

I hope your father sees the light.

[eablair3]

9. yeah, .. too bad

I can empathize with your post -- a lot. It almost could have been written by me, almost.

I've found that the best way it works in such discussions is to always remain calm. If they get angry, I remain calm. I just focus on asking questions calmly.

If they talk about how great Bush is on the war on terror and Iraq and toppling Saddam Hussein, ... I ask questions that I think are designed to get them to think, ... questions like the following: "How many Americans did Saddam Hussein kill in the last 10 years, .. in the last 20 years?" "How many acts of terrorism did Saddam Hussein commit against America in the last 10-20 years?"

On domestic issues, I ask "Do you know and agree with the power that John Ashcroft has now to subpena the records of book stores of the books you buy now?" "Do you agree that John Ashcroft should be able track and follow what internet sites you go to?" This stuff with Ashcroft seems to work well with some Repugs, as many like the Bob Barr types, can't stand this stuff.

"How much is the deficit? You do know that suuposedly fiscal conservative republicans now have by far the largest budget deficit in the history of this county and only a few years ago, it was a surplus?"

anyway, ... sometimes it works.. Oftentimes, they are just in denial, and don't want to confront the reality (that they may have been so wrong.)

[swinney]

10. get info for dad

search---clarence swinney--on www.google.com or www.yahoo.com

1.194 Bush Lies-- Plenty to add
2.45 Bush waffles-Plenty to add
3.Democrats party of Wealth and Job creation.
4.Reagan as number one--68 items--all negative
5.Why I admire Clinton list--113 reasons
6.124 reasons to impeach Bush
7.Barbara Bush "sorry group" her family
8.Osama Bin Laden is not a priority per Bush.
9.Wars--Bush and comparisons to WWII etc--
www.buzzflash.com/perspectives/04/worstpresident.html
This is important list for veterans.

Upcoming is a long list of what Democrats have done for the good of the nation. Name a few for Repugs.

Democratic platform is mainly pro-christ--Republican is mainly anti-christ.

p.s it is difficult to win a political or religious debate.
Just present facts and ask you decide.

Anything you cannot find just e-mail me [e-mail]

[mmonk]

11. It's the time of life

for you to get closer to your Dad. Put politics on the back burner in your time and conversations with him.

[LeahMira]

13. Call him back today...

... and tell him that you're sorry for fighting with him. Let him know that you think it's best that you two should not talk politics, and that you don't want your politics to ever come between you because you love and respect him for all that he has ever done in his life.

Republicans and Democrats will come and go. Fathers and their sons and daughters are more important.


Anyway I know other DUers have problems with their families because of this stuff so I knew y'all would understand. I just had to get it off my chest.

Yes, and I do understand. My mother was pretty hard on me, and I've often wondered if she had lived longer she might not have come around... sort of mellowed out once she saw that I didn't wind up as bad as she worried that I would. Now that I have a bit more maturity under my belt though, I really don't think so. I am the one who would have changed, not by changing what I think and do so much as by not letting myself be so threatened by her. I would hopefully have learned how to say "that's an interesting thought" or "you could be right" or some such statement that would not actually give her the point but at the same time would wind the argument down so we could still be friends.

If your dad votes for Bush, it's not the end of the world. A lot of people probably will. Accept that, and get on with finding the folks who are amenable to rethinking their ideas.

[maggrwaggr]

54. excellent advice. thank you

I think I'll do just that. My dad's not a bad guy, in fact he's a very good guy, but I think he's strangely naive about these things. Granted he's also quite paranoid about all the "evildoers" in the world, but then again he was in the military and I wasn't. He was privy to a lot of stuff (how much of it true?) that I'll never know about.

[neebob]

15. Same deal with my mom

She's fully Hannitized, doesn't have a computer, only watches "her" Fox News. I really want to tell her that George W. Goodpersonbush said twice that he saw the plane hit the first tower and ask her why he might say something like that. But I know where it would go. I just don't talk to her much anymore. I feel guilty about it, but it upsets me that she's so unthinking. The conversation is just mind-numbing and painfully stunted, with her constantly throwing out things I have to ignore or end up arguing about the piece of shit in the White House and everything he represents. Ugh. It makes me tired just writing about it.

[Cat Atomic]

16. Jesus, even saying, "I listened to your rant... etc." is right out of

Limbaugh/Hannity's script.

It's a way to simply dismiss everything the other person just said, and then talk over them for a few minutes and end the "conversation".

I know of no cure for self-induced propaganda. There are still people in Germany who think Hitler had it right. You just can't get it out of their heads. It's like trying to remove the foundation from a house without knocking it down.

I think you should just talk about fishing or something.

[leftchick]

17. Wow! My mother is just like your dad....

she is 71, a retired nurse and used to be a liberal Democrat. She has become totally brainwashed by faux, rush and oreilly. She appears to have lost all of her critical thinking skills. We never talk politics anymore, it is futile. :(

[Ripley]

18. Wow, I'm in the same age range with my Dad as you, but

He has turned my way since 2000. He voted for the puke on the tax cut thing but is very anti-Patriot Act. I always avoided talking politics because it would just be a fight. But now I send him emails once in awhile and I'm shocked sometimes when he writes back...I already know Powell lied to the UN or Of course they went to war for oil. He's sworn he won't vote for the Chimp again.

Try sending your Dad "moderate" articles that might start him thinking independently again. I actually sent my Dad a TruthOut article by Pitt about the war that got him really excited!

Good luck, and I know how you feel. My sister and I don't speak at all anymore because she is a complete ditto-head. I'd rather not talk to her at all than try to be nice and just listen to her bullshit. Some people think you can separate politics from family...maybe they can, but not me and my sister. At my parents 50th anniversary party I planned all by myself...sister started screaming at me about how shitty unions were from the backseat when I picked her up at the airport. She's a lost cause. Hope your Dad isn't.

[neebob]

22. I can't do it with my mother

when EVERYTHING is a moral issue. There's not much we can talk about that doesn't contain some point of disagreement that, if addressed, will eventually lead to the land of religion and politics and good and bad. Cats is a safe topic. Anything else has the potential to veer off down the George W. Bush road or the Neebob's Dad road. I'd almost rather go down the Bush road.

[Ripley]

26. LOL. "Cats is a safe topic."

I swear even the topic of cats will mutuate into some horrible "liberals care more for their cats than fetuses" argument with my sister. It's really sad. She has a very bad past...drugs, ex-boyfriend beat her, won't pay child support, abortions, crime. She was the down and out type that got hooked on talk radio kookiness the same way people get caught up in a cult. I really don't like her at all. Sorry, I know some people think blood is thicker than water. Not me.

[neebob]

34. Last time I talked to my mom

Sunday or Monday night, she was on this bringing-back-old-times kick that was apparently prompted by cleaning out closets. She mentioned she'd found some letters I'd written from "college" (read: Ricks big churchy high school with curfews and snitches, where my bossy-ass Mormon father sent me with the goal of straightening me out).

So here I am standing at the edge of the big black swirling pool of dad issues - the biggest of which is his having taught me that men who love you don't have to show it, resulting in a dismal failure of a love life that's OK now but the dad issue is still there - debating whether to grab my mother and jump in. And she starts asking me questions about this guy I fell in love with - a really handsome guy, as she's fond of pointing out, who broke my heart and stomped all over it, for whom I carried a torch even when I was married, until he finally admitted seven or eight years later that he was gay. It's a sad thing when a torch goes out.

So my mother wants to know if I knew he was gay at the time, and I'm attempting to answer her questions honestly with this giant bubble of the pathetic and self-destructive quest for love that my dad sent me on rising up out of the pool. I'm thinking okay, I'm being truthful but how close can I get to this thing without touching it, and why is she asking me these questions and does she know it's making me uncomfortable. I think she does. It was weird.

The conversation ended with her insisting she was going to put on the shoe skates she was wearing in 1954 when she met my dad (who died almost a year ago) and see if she can still skate. And she doesn't want to do it on the carpet, but on the kitchen floor. I told her I thought it was a dumb idea, and she wanted to know why. Do I really need to tell this 68-year-old woman who lives by herself that it's a dumb idea to try skating after 50 years? Then we get into this discussion about whether I think she's decrepit and exactly when was the last time she skated. Okay, so it's been 45 years.

This is why I don't enjoy talking to my mother. I don't want to bring back old times, don't want to talk about them at all because my memories don't match hers. That's been fully established and explored, at least up to the wall of her denial that she can sort of see through sometimes but doesn't want to climb over. She would say there's a wall of blame and anger on my side, and she's the only one who can see my half of the responsibility on the other side of that. Sorry, I'm just not going to take half the responsibility off of King Boss Man.

Can't talk about the present, either, because everything has some "moral" component that only George W. Goodpersonbush is doing anything about and she won't consider any viewpoint other than those of Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Bill O'Reilly, and lately Laura Ingraham.

And there's only so much to discuss about cats.

[Ripley]

35. Sorry for your pain.

I can relate. My family is incredibly dysfunctional. Alcoholic parents would be the easy answer. I hate getting caught up in the mind games, too. I try to buck up and not blame my parents for some of my neurotic tendencies, but then once again when I'm with them they start it up. I find myself fantasizing what it would be like to have a father who actually asked me about my life, wasn't selfish and didn't "compete" with me on every level. Or a mother who didn't take his side over mine. We can't choose our parents and I really try to get along, but as I said in an earlier post...blood is not thicker than water. Some families just don't get along. And if you're still fighting when you're middle aged, it is not going to change. Yes, you can do the avoidance game. Only talk about food, the weather, sports, etc. It makes for more peaceful get-togethers, but frankly caving into your parents just because they are your parents sounds pretty Dark Ages to me. We're all adults and they should stop playing the mommy/daddy vs. child card when they disagree with me.

End of rant. Just wanted you to know you aren't alone.

[neebob]

43. Thanks

I struggle with the knowledge that other people have way worse parents than mine - they actually did some important things right. So why do I carry around this amazing load of baggage? I've been really aware of it lately; it's like this big cloud that follows me around and rains on me at least once a day - at work, in the car, at home watching TV. I thought being honest with my mother after my dad died would help, but all it really did was bring out all the mom issues I didn't know I had. And it doesn't go away but just morphs into something else that can't be resolved except in my own mind. If you're self-aware and making progress and feeling okay on your own, why expose yourself to people who drag you back in make you feel like you're not okay. So I'm with you on that point. I just wish I could figure out how to get rid of the cloud.

On edit, here's an example you might be able to relate to: I got sucked into My Big Fat Obnoxious Fiance and found myself liking Randi's dad and wondering what it would be like to have had a dad like that, who respected me as a person and treated me like an equal. It's sad and annoying that this twisted show about people in this perverse situation inspires these feelings.

[Ripley]

44. Maybe it's our/their age.

I guess I could be considered "middle-aged" (OMG) and their health is failing. So, I want to get along for their last years. But I don't feel it is mentally healthy for me to have that "cloud" you're talking about brought up over and over again. Then there's the clingy problem from Mom I'm experiencing since Dad has been diagnosed with congestive heart failure. But that's a whole other can of worms.

It is so hard to get outside one's own head on these things. If I start feeling too depressed about it all, I dive into my work or ratchet up the yoga and exercise routine. Beats drinking. Hang in there! :hi:

[neebob]

47. My dad had strokes and heart failures

and my mother had to retire to be a nursemaid and was essentially trapped in the house with my dad for about six years. I always said he'd go out with a bang, but the bang came - and another, and another - and he didn't go out. He just hung on and developed new ways of controlling things. His death was a huge relief, in my opinion, and I'd hoped my mom would relish her freedom, learn to be happy as a widow, and have another 20 years or so. Her mother lived to be 86. But she's not getting into it. She's obsessed with death and old times and still suffering from Caregiver Stress Syndrome or burnout or whatever it's called, and now she's having health problems. It's like her reason for existence went away, and now she's going to will herself out too. George W. Goodpersonbush gives her a reason to stay in the world. Seriously - she has practically said so.

I hear ya about the clingy thing, and I feel guilty because I'm 400 miles away. But you know, the cloud that follows me around is big enough. The one in my mom's house is frickin' huge and so thick I can barely move. I've just kind of resigned myself to have to deal with the mom version of my dad's last act in the next few years.

[Zookeeper]

48. That sounds exhausting.... n/t

[neebob]

49. Oh, it was

and it is. And it's even more exhausting trying to get my mother to see that the president is a total scumbag. So why bother.

[SharonAnn]

69. I agree. I consider people like that to be abusive and I wouldn't

stay with a partner who was abusive, why would I stay with a family member who is abusive?

If she beat you physically you would avoid her. This kind of verbal abuse is the same kind of thing.

[swinney]

19. You have our sympathy.

But--other side has it's points.

My sons are Repubs. Honest well educated.
Son in law is very bright successful but repub.

I do not argue politics.

When one makes a point I merely print our corrective info for them.

It shuts them. I always ask for rebuttal. Get none.

[PA Democrat]

20. I can sympathize

I'm 45, my dad is 70 and also an engineer (but no military). He has always leaned conservative, but lately it's been getting worse. He just loves Bill O'Reilly. He gave my 14 year-old son a book by Ollie North to read. I have 2 brothers and 1 sister, and all are conservative.

Last Easter, it got so ugly I walked out of a family dinner after my sister flippantly said that Iraqis who were killed had only themselves to blame for supporting Saddam.

It has really strained my relationship with my family. I dread family gatherings. But I still, try to engage my dad in thoughtful conversations on policies that bush has pushed that directly affect him or my family. I have a disabled child and always point out bush's policies that impact her. I have to admit that I have tried to shame him into opening his eyes to the bush administration's greed and callous disregard for those who are less fortunate.

[Cursive_Knives512]

61. RE Your sister's comment..

I probably would have done the same thing, since I'm so extremely sensitive. Sorry you had to deal with that.

[gulliver]

21. The "real" issues.

• Traditionalism vs. cultural change
  
• Management/owner vs. labor
  
• Rich vs. poor
  
• White vs. non-white
  
• Straight vs. gay
  
• Women's rights and standing in society
  
• Christian majority
  
• Abortion
  

The reason people like your father are willing to accept a smarmy, salesman-slick punk like Bush as a president is that he is a necessary evil. They have chosen sides on the hidden issues and have defined their front man to be axiomatically good.

A poster on DU recently wrote that "people vote who they are" (not necessarily on the issues). People like your father would much rather have a genuine and intelligent man as their leader and spokesperson, but they will settle for Bush. It's not really about Bush or Bushco. It's about identity and social trends.

[jus_the_facts]

23. yeah know the feelin' all to well.....since my Dad got cancer we've.....

...not discussed politics much as I don't wanna get his blood pressure up...last it was brought up we were in agreement for a change though...he's always sayin' all politicians are beholden to the corporate agenda nowdays...on both sides...and I had to agree with him because all of my DEM representatives have been votin' with * for 4 years now...Breaux...Landrieu...now my newly elected DEM House rep Alexander has been as well...so for once I had to agree with him as their votin' records show they've become DINO and don't represent me and my views at ALL! :(

[Cleita]

24. When my husband and I were traveling in our RV, we ran

into many oldsters like your old man. All were war veterans of some war and all had their ear glued to Rush Limbaugh everyday. I don't know how OxyRush does it, but he seems to be able to brainwash his followers. I keep thinking what if he weren't a conservative prick, he would be almost Christlike because of his powers of persuasion. I think the only other person in modern history who could do this was Hitler.

I feel so sorry for you and for your dad. I'm so happy that my father died before there was Rush Limbaugh because he too was a Republican and no doubt would have succumbed to his siren's song as well.

[VolcanoJen]

25. Awwww maggr.

:-(

You know what worries me? That although I'll be relieved, and ecstatic, when Kerry wins this election and we take back the White House, I think the Repubs are going to freak the f@ck out and the nation will remain as divided as it is today. The political environment and dialogue will be even more poisonous than it is now.

I hate the way this country is divided, and reading your letter breaks my heart. The politics of this country is ripping families apart.

Uniter, not divider. I'm going to change the dialogue in America. I don't believe in nation-building. I'm going to bring honor and integrity back to the White House...

[Bozita]

27. His info sources suck so much oxygen from the atmosphere that thinking ...

... is no longer possible.

Sad.

[KelleyKramer]

28. You have to take it one step at a time

I have had similar experiences, and its easy to just go off and hit them with everything you have.. But actually that makes it easier for them to shut it all out.

Slow down and take it one step at a time.. Give him one thing every other day or so. Something like ...

Did you see where Bush outed a CIA agent?

Did you see today where Bush lied to the Republicans in congress about his Medicare program?

Did you see today how Bush has increased the size of big government more than any president in decades?

Don’t push it, just throw those out there and let him chew on it. Don’t even make him deny it or say 'oh those are lies'.
If he does that anyway, then just ask him 'have you seen the report? Or have you seen the bill? Ask him to inform you, ask him how he knows it’s a lie.

But if he doesn’t do that, just throw one thing out at a time and let him digest it.. Believe me, the Bushies are so bad that there is something new everyday, eventually over time it will begin to sink in on him.

That’s my suggestion or .02 for the day,


Kelley

http://kelleykramer.blogspot.com/

[duhneece]

63. I love your, "Did you see where Bush.....?

beginning. I would guess it makes others a little less defensive.
I've learned to use the, "(Grin/smile) "Well, we sure see that differently." They usually drop the subject, but occasionally that is an opener for a real exchange of views.
A year ago, my fiance supported Bush. Very uncomfortable around here. When I gently questioned him about his support, his answers included his father's being in the military and his being in the military AND his belief that there were WMD's and Bush had good intelligence telling him details about them. So I said, "If I can find you documentation that Bush had good intelligence telling him there were NOT WMD's, would that change your mind?" It would. We struggled over good documentation versus unreliable documentation...eventually, he wrote to our congressmen demanding impeachment.
Some people we can't touch, some we can.
I am so grateful for DU for all of the learning I've done here. Great resources.

[kalian]

29. Unfortunately, I can relate to this as well....

not just about the repukes in general but about economics, etc.
My father and I are almost like night and day. He's very pro-corporate
world (even though he has been treated very unfairly by the
bastards), very pro-globalism, very pro-conservative economics, etc.

As you can imagine, I'm the complete opposite... I'm 32 and he's 67.
Not a "huge" generational gap, but enough I would assume.

Our greatest discussion was about Iraq and how "justified" the US was
in invading. What gets me the most is that when his time came to
go to Nam, he sidestepped it...classic chickenhawk.
Now that there are strong rumors that computer and linguistic skills
will be in "high demand" for the upcoming draft (and believe me, I
am an ideal "candidate" for the imperial forces...) he tells me to
"keep a low profile".

It pissed me off that he doesn't care about other people's sons and
daughters getting killed and maimed in this "justified war" but IF
I'm in danger of getting drafted he tells me to "lay low". :eyes:

Its very difficult for me to comprehend his thought process and he's
a very intelligent man, speaks 6 languages, PhD in Chemistry, etc.
Just boggles the mind...

The only thing that we can do, maggrwaggr, is love them for who they
are and not allow the world's idiocies ruin a parent-child
relationship.

[Bread and Circus]

30. Most of my friends and family are arch-Republicans so I understand...

where you are coming from.

I refrain from engagement because it quickly devolves into them repeating the Limbaugh lies. It's very hard to persuade someone when in order to do so you have to make them realize they have swallowed a pile of horseshit. If you win the argument by pointing out too much fact, it just makes them feel stupid, which is not what you want to do.

I also notice they get fucking angry quickly at even the slightest hint of criticism of Bush. It's not fun to engage them, though I love them. They feel victimized by the vast Liberal Conspiracy that wants to kill unborn babies, take away their guns, raise their taxes, get rid of Jesus, and add ever-more-burdensome regulations. What's funny is they don't realize that Conservatives control all branch of goverment, the consolidated corporate media, and a disproportionate control of electoral power due to rural areas being so Republican and the GOP constantly redistricting. They have drunk the koolaid so hard it is not funny.

I feel sorry for our country. It's becoming a theocratic feudal serfdom, which is what we were trying to get away from when we kicked King George's ass.

[patricia92243]

31. Listen to #13. She's right.

[Zookeeper]

51. And #11....

Try to think of the big picture and the future that you can make happen. Elderly people have other issues, and so many just don't have the energy to fully engage in the process anymore. It's so much easier to listen to Rush.

My mom avoids talking about politics with me. My recently deceased step-father was a rabid free-enterprise Republican and I doubt that mom ever questioned him. I know she is unhappy with "the mess Bush has gotten us into in Iraq." But, the bottom line is that she seems to resent even having to think about it. I think her take on it is: Can't the world just be a nice place where we can trust our leaders to take care of us?

[neebob]

52. Maybe it's because I was forced as a child

to bow to the will of those who were older than I, simply because they were older - respect your elders and all. But now that I'm one of the elders, I don't believe in excusing people's behavior and giving them passes because they're old. My mom and I have gone around and around about this - oh, it's just the way he or she was raised, it was a different time, you have to understand blah blah blah.

No, I don't have to understand. Wrong is still wrong, and once the truth is made available there's no excuse for continuing to believe the lie. And just because you want to believe something, because it feels better or goes along with what you were taught growing up, doesn't make it true.

[Zookeeper]

59. Although I am willing to discuss politics with my mother..

any time she decides she wants to, I find it more practical to use my time and energy raising awareness of people younger than she, who have more of a stake in the future and the energy to get involved.

[neebob]

62. That's a good strategy

if you can talk about other things with your mother. I try to avoid talking politics with mine as well - it's just that her politics are all tangled up with religion and her whole WWII-based worldview. Lately it seems she says things on purpose, about every five minutes, trying to start something - if not about politics, then about our family. It feels like she's throwing barbs, but I think she wants to finish this much bigger debate in a way that's more satisfying to her. In either discussion, I usually bail at the point where she says, "If I'm wrong, then why am I even here?" or before. I think she really wants to answer that question, but I'm not willing to force her to do it.

[Zookeeper]

76. Initially, I was responding to Maggrwaggr's post...

except for my response to you about your situation sounding exhausting. The two of you sound like you have somewhat different situations.

I'm not sure how I would handle your situation. Maggrwaggr may be able to have a relationship with his/her parent without talking about politics. It sounds like the dynamic with your mother is a lot more complicated than having political differences. I wish I could suggest something, but hope you can find a way to work it out.

:hug:

[MikeG]

32. Are you still in the will?

[maggrwaggr]

45. Ha! Good question!

Maybe my fundie stepmom's kids now ..... hmmmm.....

[izzie]

33. He at 70 maybe thinking his life is near the end so the church stuff.

That happens to a lot of old people. The church people are really into Bush and Co and they play to that.I would say do not talk to him about it or be very careful when you do.

[mmonk]

37. Both of my parents

are gone now. Be positive with him and do things together you enjoy. Talk politics with others.

[shanti]

39. i feel you!

and i'm in a similar situation. i'm 48, dad's 73 and a military retiree as well. dad's been a lifelong dem, as i am, but don't EVEN try to talk about current events like iraq, 9/11, etc. with him, cause he's NOT hearing it! we had some huge blowout arguments about 2 years ago with both of us refusing to discuss politics with each other other anymore. fwiw, dad's a former toastmaster, so he thinks he's an expert in arguing, and he doesn't respect my opinions. i'm still a "kid" to him.

i just figured out that it's probably best not to discuss these things with him anymore. he's a proud man, and he HATES being proven wrong. i tried and it's just not worth it.

maybe you should take that same tack if you want to preserve your relationship with him.

[snappydresser]

41. Be patient. My dad came around.

Maybe give him the Kevin Phillips book as a gift.

[maggrwaggr]

53. thanks for the feedback everybody

One of the reasons I liked coming to DU way back when is because I realized I could talk to people who were like me.

I'm proved right again.

As far as arguing with my Dad, I know I'm never going to change his mind, I just want him to understand my point of view. I guess it's a father/son thing where I have this urge to be understood by my dad. He never has understood me at all, and I think blames others for making my thinking errant.

Sorry Dad, you should have home schooled me and never had us travel so much as a kid. :)

[shanti]

58. hah!

moving as a kid...yes, that part of being a military brat truly sucked!

[maggrwaggr]

90. all the travel sucked in a way but it was eye-opening

I lived overseas and we travelled around Europe a lot when I was there. I had a lot of freedom, even as a kid, because I had older friends, to travel around Frankfurt Germany all I wanted.

Seeing that America isn't the only country in the world, and that there are other people, other cultures, and other points of view, really had a big impact.

So he can blame himself for that. :)

Shoulda home-schooled me, Dad!

[mitchtv]

56. introduce him to my freeper brother

I am getting so sick of his hate emails on JK-i send him a awol/chimp picture or cartoon at any opportunity

[davsand]

57. Yep, been thru it.

Last vacation we took was in Jan 2002 when we went to Florida and stayed with my parents in their double wide. By day two in a double wide with Faux news on every waking hour I was ready to snap.

I remember being told I was blinded by my hate of Bush and that I had no grasp of "reality." That was because I had expressed an opinion that Bush had been warned that the attacks of 9/11 were coming...

It was such an ugly scene and I was so angry I almost packed up my family and left mid-vacation.

Since that time, we do talk about politics, but I am careful to talk about it in terms of "Does this scare you?" or "How does this make you feel?"

The Medicare drug bill was a big turning point, however, the Iraq invasion has been the biggest. They have a Grandson who is a Senior in college--and they realize he is most likely gonna be drafted if Bush is re-elected.

We are at a sort of truce now, and they say they will not vote for Bush again. It may be that is the best we are gonna get.

Laura

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

85. That is pretty damn good BTW!

We are at a sort of truce now, and they say they will not vote for Bush again. It may be that is the best we are gonna get.

-2 votes for Bush in FLA? Hooray for you!

[pacifictiger]

60. the republican party of yesteryear

is not the same republican party of today.
I think a lot of older people are having a hard time coming to grips with the distinction between WWII era patriotism and the deceipt and manipulations of today. Older people are usually pretty set in their habits.
If he's really into the bible, start acting on some of Jesus' teachings - show love and kindness to him anyway - and when timing is appropriate, mention words like Jesus' sermon on the mount and ask how that fits in with the Bush doctrine of christianity. If he responds with quotations other than Jesus' words, refer him back to what Jesus actually said - most fundies quote things from Jewish prophets or paul, not jesus.
To any mention of politics, just say "Jesus said when speaking of how you could tell false prophets from truth - by their fruits you shall know them" (and maybe add if the timing is ok) the Bush family seems to be surrounded by a lot of rotten fruit.

[seabeyond]

65. i am 42 and my dad 66

we recently had the same conversation. we pretty much stay away from politics. i think what is really hard for these men, bush has so much trash on them. my father just read limited amount so because i know way more, i can kick my fathers tush in conversation on this. and so easy to show bush his error of way. so i understand many emotions your father felt, maybe even an almost betrayal of your step to adulthood and challenge to him and in knowing you did it.

also it is truly hard the older we become to change our mindset and bush is so beyond what conservative party is about

what i have noticed in the last couple weeks though, is it is sinking in to dad. he is listening to more of what is happening and remembering our conversation and thinking twice. he may never come to me and say bush is a pig, but it did allow him to open eyes a bit.

[havocmom]

66. maybe MATCOM's dad could give your dad some message

MATCOM says his dad has come a long way round in his views of late.

Try to keep the peace while keeping your soul. Some people just cannot accept the evil that is present in some leaders. How pleasant it would be to think the people in charge are good and wise. Some folks just cannot leave that safe delusion behind and face the fact that even America can be victimized by moral degenerates in high places.

[Bozvotros]

68. Similar father demographics

but different outcome....

My father was an engineer who spent four years in the Army during WWII. He was a captain doing radar work in the South Pacific, right up to and through Hiroshima and Nagasaki. He is a fundamentalist Christian and a life long Republican. Voted Nixon, Goldwater, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush and Bush2. But he has finally had it. My brother and I have kept feeding him a steady diet of links and articles about Bushco and their lies, deceit and corruption. Patiently deprogramming him from the RNC crap and fundamentalist hokum which comes to him by mail each week.

He has wavered back and forth the last month but about a week ago, after desperately trying to find a spin he could believe, some way to justify the hypocritical, cynical venal criminality of Bushco, he caved. Threw in the towel and admitted that Bush was a liar, crook and phony. Clarke's testimony and Rice's refusal to testify under oath was the body blow which finally did it. He was desolate for awhile. I reminded him that we were a crimson red state and that all he really had to do to assuage his conscience was abstain from voting But I think he is going to vote Kerry, maybe as penance. He feels betrayed and disgusted. He has come out publicly among some religious friends and relatives, shocking them by his open dislike of Bush. No spin will put him back in Bush's camp now.

[Zookeeper]

78. You sound sensitive to his discomfort with the change. n/t

[shihtzu5]

70. Ditto-head Son

I have the same situation with my son (46 year old small businessman). Before he started listening to the Ditto-monkey and other right wing radio nazi's all day, each work day, he was what used to be known as an "ordinary Republican". He was an economic conservative and a social moderate.
He admits to starting off his day with the San Diego Union (a right wing fascist rag), listening to hate talk radio all day, coming home to log on to Drudge and watch Fox news. His views have expanded accordingly. We used to enjoy some spirited and interesting conversation; now we can never talk politics.
My son, believe it or not, is an intelligent man; always straight A's through school, quickly raised through the ranks as a firefighter to Captain, started his own sucessful business (with no knowledge of the field). I wonder constantly what has precipitated this brainwashing.
A few years ago my son experienced a serious work-related injury that necessitated his leaving the fire service and a job he loved. Although he won't talk about it, I know this was very traumatic and a blow he will never get over. He is also married to a woman who can be "difficult" at times. I speculate that perhaps bitterness has something to do with his political bent.... but I admit to being completely baffled.
On a humorous note: my son enjoys the nude beach in San Diego area, he and his wife vacation at nude resorts only, and he enjoys going to Burning Man. Go figure!

[SayitAintSo]

71. I feel your pain .... My dad called me a GD Liberal several months ago

.... and it really shocked and hurt me. I finally got sick of taking it and didn't call him, and he never call me until about 6-7 weeks later when he found out I was going in the hospital for some tests. Believe me I know the story ... yep, Repugs eat their young .... I'm the lone liberal in my family and it an't easy !

[x-g.o.p.er]

74. He's still your dad....

and he's getting old. Look, unless he has a personal epiphany, he's not going to change his mind. Let it go, be the bigger person.

My dad is the same way. But I won't let our differences interfere with what are his final years. They're too important to let slip away over politics.

[Disturbed]

75. Yee Gads

I read all the responses here and I sure can relate. My step-Dad, who die about 20 yrs ago was a Nixon fan. My Mom love Pat Buchanon. She recently sent me a Bill O'Reilly book. She lives in Co. I live in CA. I haven't called to thank her for the book. I am a member of the Green Party.When she brings up politics I just listen and say uh hu, I see, let her rant then change the subject to personal stuff about her life etc. She is 80 and in great health but I don't want to raise her Blood Pressure. She will NEVER change her way of thinking so I don't even try to engage with my views. NOw I am trying to figure out what to say about the Bill O'Reilly book. I won't read it. Guess I will thank her and say I found it interesting. Let her talk about it, say uh hu, etc. and change the subject. hehehehe

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

86. Pat Buchanan is big time against shrub's foreign policy.

But if she's that old probably best to not even go there.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

80. As advised...

I would avoid politics as much as possible.

If it should ever surface againt and you feel the need to speak out, tell him about what Bush is doing to the military and how it's pissing you off.

Do your research -- the lack of basic gear, having to buy their own body armour, having to homemake armour for their Humvees, being fed food that is made in shit conditions, having to live in shit conditions while waiting medical treatment at home, having to fight for benefits, almost having their pay cut by Bush, retirees having their drug coverage cut --

I could go on, it's ugly and it's out there.

When I run across a conservative who's been listening to too much Rush, that's what I hit them with. They tend to not like it.

[Gloria]

81. My mother and I go at it nearly every day....sometimes more!

She's 82. She taught history. She raised me on the New Republic when it was liberal.

All of a sudden, she's a Bush apologist. It started with radio wingnuts during the Clinton years. I can't get over it. It makes me want to puke.

[Bozvotros]

84. How can intelligent people defend these dangerous morons.

used to puzzle me. But I am beginning to understand. This is a diabolical, concentrated, machiavellian form of cognitive dissonance that Rove is working here. Cognitive dissonance is the phenomena that occurs among "true believers" who have invested their heart and soul into something and then are viciously betrayed or humiliated. The greater the investment, the harder it is for these folks to admit how red rough and sore their screwing has been and continues to be. They are the kool aid drinkers.

Bush hooked a whole bunch of people with his pious hokum and poisonous patriotism around 911. In their sorrow and fear, people wanted to believe he was a good and godly man. It is hard for them to believe that he is a cheap little tin god, a phony frat boy puke yanking their chain and laughing at them. But gradually and sadly they are coming around....

[lichenorleaveit]

89. Just tell him that you're right and he is wrong

I'm sure he'll understand.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

93. I love this thread...

Maggr, I agree with the overall sentiments expressed here that your relationship with your dad supercedes politics and probably best to leave it alone.

My comments on his situation. If you look at his life situation, he is effectively insulated, socially, and media-wise, from any thinking contrary to the RW/fundie Kool-Aid. All his media is RW. His wife is a fundie. Their social life centers around fundie churchies, where the overwhelming odds are they are shrubco fans.

Not to be derogatory to him, but it's like being in a cult, to be so immersed. Little or no chance to break out of that way of thinking, when you're never exposed to any other information. Especially when you don't want to learn otherwise.

This is an interesting topic that I think about from my own standpoint. I live in a Republican stronghold (North Dallas) and so I am constantly exposed to views contrary to my own at work, although those views have little or no influence on me--the positions expressed are so doctrinaire that it's just about impossible to take them seriously, even though the people I work with are highly educated professionals.

But I basically don't bother with watching Fox news or even most network stuff, get 90% of my info from the internet. In essence by participating on a board like this I am "insulating myself" from the shrill RW ranting. Is this good? To a point. On another board I used to participate on I got tired of arguing against the RW'ers there. Not that I didn't have arguments, just got tired of beating my head since it was clear that to most of them it didn't matter how solid my info was, they refused to see or believe. It just seemed pointless and a waste of time. I haven't entirely given up on that board, I just don't participate in the arguments much at all anymore. Just post things that might provoke some thought or comment (like shrub's antics at the Correspondent's dinner) and usually get out of the way. Hope that some of it sticks or starts some gears turning.

This last is an interesting topic of its own that I think I should start a different thread on: do we owe it to ourselves to expose ourselves to the arguments of the right wing, and if so, how much? Obviously if you are going to particpate in debate you need to read your opponent's points to respond appropriately. But it's an interesting topic.

[maggrwaggr]

95. Hey, I'm ALL for hearing other points of view, but

what I get hit with from the RW is pure recycled garbage from the propaganda mills of Limbaugh and Hannity and their ilk.

Believe me, I love to argue, I love to hear a good argument from any point fo view, but that's not what these people do.

It's almost like psychosis, where they have these weird little explanations for everything, that sorta circle back on themselves so they can have no arguing allowed.

Like I said above, it's always "well he's a liar" if it's something they don't want to hear.

Or "he/she's disgruntled". Is EVERYBODY disgruntled?

It's way too easy to just smash them to bits with a real argument. What they do is the old cognitive dissonance thing. You can't argue with that. They're not the least bit interested in arguing.

[NinetySix]

96. Sorry to break up group therapy, but...

...I'm one of the fortunate few who was raised by thoughtful, progressive, educated parents. When I talk to MY folks, the subject almost invariably turns to politics, and since my parents live in a red, red, red state, it provides us an opportunity to vent to one another about that unelected madman who we awoke to find at the switch one terrible January morning.

Among other family, there are some who had strayed during the Reagan/Bush years who have made their way back to sensibility. My father's sister, who voted Republican in '80, '84, and '88 became a fervent Clinton supporter and remains a Democrat today. I'll not forget how shocked I was to hear her say one day, "Y'know, the older I get, the more liberal I get. I thought it was supposed to be the other way around." My father's brother was a zealous Republican too, until the intolerable (as he saw them) partisan attacks on President Clinton that seemed to him to be gratuitous and baseless. He and I often exchange e-mails with news stories of the latest Bush outrage, and I turned him on to Buzzflash.com, which he now reads as devoutly as I do.

I do, however, have another uncle, my mother's brother, who is unfortunately a redneck cop who thinks, for instance, that anyone who cuts him off in traffic 'must have been a n*****' and whom I and my sister have personally disowned for being such a loathesome person. Even though I don't really give a shit about him one way or the other, he surprised me somewhat when, while I was home for a Christmas visit, he showed up for dinner, and when the subject turned ever so slightly toward politics, he began to bitch about GW Bush. My problems with him are not with his politics, however, but are deeply personal. Another uncle of mine by marriage is among the most conservative of conservatives you'll ever meet (I think he was at one time a member of the John Birch Society, I shit you not), but who at least spent time with me and paid me attention when I was young, and who is really a fine fellow until the subject of discussion turns to politics or religion--a mistake many of my family have made in the past only to learn a valuable lesson: careful what you say to Uncle John!

The lesson that I take from my own family experience, I guess, is that family is important and politics less so on a personal level, and the reverse is true on a larger scale. Dealing with that relative with whom you disagree requires a commitment to not allowing the two areas of thinking to come into contact for the sake of preserving relationships that are personally important. But I must say, it's really nice to have grown up in a liberal family!

[agincourt]

97. I hate to say,

but often arguing with someone who's hooked on RW politics is like arguing with someone who is drunk to quit drinking. Once they get on those spiels they just can't quit. I don't have any family members preaching to me but there are people I see every day who literally hate me for my DU bumper sticker. When they start blowing off that crap, I just say I don't watch what you watch, I don't listen to what you listen to, that stuff doesn't mean anything to me. Instead of arguing I'd just say ,"Dad, I don't believe in that stuff, its boring to me, lets talk about something interesting". Sometimes a general lack of interest in what they are saying is the best way to deal with right-wingers.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

98. The anger is the part that I really don't get. There was a passage

in Michael Moore's "Stupid White Men" where he quotes Tim Robbins as asking why the hell the Angry White Man repubs were so angry, especially when they control everything, all branches of gov't. and the corporate media etc. Anger can be a very useful political motivator, I would say many if not most of us on DU are angry with our gov't for excellent reasons (I certainly am). But I don't understand the right wing anger. Who the hell are they angry at?

On almost all of these right wing shows, whether it's Fox News on TV, or the various Rush/Hannity clones, feature anger/shouting very prominently. Some of the ones we get out here in TX, David Ankarlo (sp?) and Greg Knapp, it's like a permanent "sneer" in their voice. Very unpleasant. I would think it would be unpleasant even to those who agree with the politics, to hear that sneer and to feel that unpleasant anger all the time. Actually Rush seems the least angry of the bunch, possibly because he's an Oxy-fed gazillionaire.

[neebob]

99. It's not anger; it's moral outrage

I don't think the show people actually feel it; they're just playing to their audience's fear and hatred of liberals and their evil doings.

The other night I was flipping channels and stopped on Scarborough at the top of his show, with an especially crazy-sounding lineup. The first topic was the founder of Hamas killed by Israel and whether it was an assassination. This Arabic-looking woman guest was attempting to point out that the sheik was 77 years old and quadriplegic and everything, and Scarborough cut her off and started yelling: "DON'T ... COME ... ON ... MY ... SHOW ... AND MAKE THAT TERRORIST OUT TO BE A MARTYR!" It was so disturbing, I changed the channel.

[historian]

100. Its hard to reach that age

and have to admit all you believed in was wrong.

[neebob]

101. I think that's my mom's problem

Admitting that George W. Bush is not a good person and God is not behind him requires her to consider the possibility there is no god. The funny thing is her belief in his goodness and godliness is out of alignment with her belief in the Mormon version of Armageddon, which she's convinced is going to happen any minute.

I never did get the story straight, but my understanding is that the leaders in "the Last Days" are all corrupt and the world is full of false prophets and everything. So why does she believe this leader is good and God supports him? It makes no sense. The first time I heard her say, "Then I have no reason for being here" was after I tried to tell her that. It shocked me, and I've avoided the subject ever since because I don't want to be responsible for her whole life being negated.