What's the Biggest WASTE of Money in the Federal Budget?

[ulTRAX]

Just wondering what fellow DUers think. If you have an opinion please flesh it out with some hard numbers and some explanation how the money is being wasted.

[Triple H]

1. The insane amount of money we are spending on defense.

[revcarol]

4. tOTAlly agree!!

We can EASILY cut the defense budget by 15% as Kucinich suggests, and have enough defense for ANY contingency except continuous agressive war.Up the benefits and pay of the military too.

[ulTRAX]

5. and the numbers are?

I really wanted to avoid lots of one-liner responses and get to some understanding of the issue.

[fudge stripe cookays]

8. Check out truemajority.com

Watch the video (From the homepage, click on the "Serious Fun" button, then look for the "Oreo" video).

Order some of the pens, and distribute them to everyone you know. The pen gives a great visual of defense spending vs. everything else. Unfortunately I don't have one of the pens on me right this minute.

Start spreading the word about a guy named Chuck Spinney, who claims there is at least 3 TRILLION dollars that the Pentagon CANNOT ACCOUNT FOR. He was on Bill Moyers recently. Unbelievable stuff this guy had to say. About as groundbreaking as Clarke or O'Neill.

[ulTRAX]

23. love those pens.....

I got one in the mail a few weeks back!

[Triple H]

9. I don't have any official numbers...

but it's up in the billions to trillions of dollars range.

You should already know how much we have spent in Iraq...

[revcarol]

10. We spend 50% of the total discretionary budget on "DEFENSE."

This is the budget after such things as Social Security payments, Medicare payments, payments on U. S. indebtedness to owners are paid out.$$ I don't know because PERCENTAGES speak louder to me.When you are talking billions and trillions, my eyes glass over. But precentages speak to national PRIORITIES.

i WOULD ADD, THE $1 billion A MONTH WE ARE SPENDING ON IRAQ is not included in this percentage.

[mulethree]

60. Medicare

Maybe the non-discretionary budget should not be off limits.

My mom went through 3 months of tests for a lung transplant, all medicare-paid. 12 days of testing, probably $30,000 in bills so they could tell her she wasn't strong enough to undergo the procedure.

I think her doctor knew that before he even started the process.

I see all those scooter ads on TV and wonder how many scooters medicare is buying for people who would be much better off with
more exercise instead of less.

Figure came up in the Foster testimony on the Medicaire prescription cost estimate mess that the V.A. had saved 48% on prescription costs by negotiating prices with the pharma corps. But the medicaire bill seemed to very carefully avoid similar negotiation.

[IrateCitizen]

13. There's nothing "defensive" about our military

The last time we were attacked on our mainland by another sovereign nation was the War of 1812. Our military is meant to secure resources and markets throughout the world, thus maintaining American hegemony throughout the globe. There's nothing "defensive" about such a posture.

[ulTRAX]

26. defense vs military spending

I think the term "defense" spending is a bit Orwellian. It's like the anti-abortion crowd pretending they are pro-life when they are, at best, pro-birth and most could care less about people already alive.

We should call "defense" spending what it is: military spending.

[Sandpiper]

31. The Founding Fathers

Were very much opposed to having a large standing military in the US. They believed, from their own experience, that countries with large standing armies/navies used them primarily for agression rather than defense.

They proposed that much of the responsibility for national defense be placed in the hands of "well regulated" citizen militias. Hence the Second Amendment.

[Options Remain]

15. actually

there probably are reasonable expenses in the defense budget as well. Its the GRAFT that I would define as waste.

TearForger

[Gasolinedream]

2. GW's salary

in my opinion

[JaySherman]

3. At this point: The entire White House...

Half the Senate, almost two thirds of the House of Represenatives. Take your pick.

[fob]

27. I had to check first and sure enough someone beat me to it

The $400,000 for bush*s salary and whatever cheney* makes too.

[DarkPhenyx]

6. retirement benefits for federal representatives.

that would be all reps. Pres, VP, Congressional Reps, Senators...all of them. Make their sorry, no election winning, asses work for a living when they get out.

[Yupster]

47. Agree DarkPhen

Get rid of retirement for elected representatives. It's not supposed to be a career.

[peterh]

50. I think it’s more of the double…

Triple and so on dipping….these critters get a package for every position they’ve held in public life….where the private citizen has to rely on SS, savings, 401’s and iras as pensions become a distant memory….these critters get full salary plus until they friggin die…no wait….I think their spouses continue to draw….what a fucked up deal….

[camero]

7. Defense

Not far behind that is Corporate Welfare. It's long past time to get the corps off the dole.

[cally]

11. Missile Defense Shield (aka Star Wars)

much of the Agriculture Department spending, tobacco subsidies, Haliburton contracts, much of the Commerce Department subsidies to business, and the dual intelligence agencies Cheney set up.

[RobertSeattle]

14. I second that

Stars Wars is the biggest boondoggle ever invented. For every Billion we spend our enemies can just spend a million to defeat it.

[cornfedyank]

54. third

i for one do not want to spend this next hundred years playing out the "Yangs vs. the Comms" episode of Star Trek.
Wage Peace, it's cheaper.
"Guns or Butter" did not get to be an old saying for nothin.
A very close nanosecond was any new nucks.

[IrateCitizen]

12. PENTAGON -- don't call it "defense", because it isn't!

The Pentagon is a massive black hole through which militarism has come to infect and corrode every other aspect of our society.

I mean, they can't even account for over $1 trillion! Congressional members throw money at wasteful projects in order to secure the pork that guarantees their re-election.

It's all a giant scam, and we're the marks.

[leftchick]

16. I think it is closer to 3 trillion!

Agreed, the PENTAGON is THE waste of taxpayer money!

[SarahB]

56. Imagine what good could be done with that kind of money

It makes me want to :puke: at those greedy SOBs!

[mikey_1962]

17. As a Percentage of GDP its below Reagan Bush I & Clinton

[ulTRAX]

21. why is % of GDP important?

The Right has been raising this issue... in DEFENSE of Bush's irresponsible fiscal policies. Such spin SHOULD be a warning that there's something the Right wants to hide. It's like when Orin Hatch was trying to promote Clarence Thomas as a moderate. Sometimes red flags have to go up.

[mulethree]

62. Measure as percentage of global military spending

If we need to spend 2X what the entire rest of the world spends,
including our allies.... Obviously somethings horribly inefficient.

Is it international welfare? Are we spending Zillions protecting Japan, Tiawan, Isreal etc. that they should be dishing out of their own pockets? Do we get anything like our money's worth? e.g. Japan bucking up the Dollar, Isreal providing ?intelligence?, Tiawan providing ?headaches for the mainland Chinese?

[ulTRAX]

65. what was that first poster ever trying to say?

Rereading the post I was responding to I assumed it was about the deficits... but the poster wasn't clear on anything. Man, I hate those one liners. You hope for a serious discussion and get meaningless sound bites.

My only point was that the debt/deficits can be looked at from any number of angles... current dollars, constant dollar....percentage of GDP... percentage of the total budget...whatever.

If the Right wants irresponsible tax cuts... say to create a budgetary train wreck to undermine Social Security... then they will downplay those massive deficits by spinning one aspect of the math or another. In this case the GOP.... the party that pretends to be fiscally responsible... has been trying to minimize the massive deficits as no big deal. Such spin should make us suspicious.

[AlCzervik]

18. The 77 millions

dollars that Bush went behind the congress to get to advertise school vouchers, 15 million of which Bill slots czar Bennett got.

[ulTRAX]

19. My Choice: INTEREST On the National Debt = 318 BILLION

According to http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdint.htm
interest on the national debt for FY03 was $318,148,529,151 BILLION.

It's clear this money bought the American People NOTHING. I think this tops the waste in military spending.

According to http://www.census.gov/ the current US population is estimated at 292,909,789 MILLION people.

The interest, alone, averages about $1086 PER PERSON.

[Snivi Yllom]

20. DEFENSE DEPARTMENT

[AP]

22. Iraq. It's buying us an even more fucked up world that's creating expenses

down the road that will be unbearable for the economy.

It's throwing good money after bad.

[napi21]

24. Corporate Welfare!

This may not look like a number as big as Defense, but if you include its tenticles, it's bigger.

Just to mention one that was talked about yesterday, the Fed. Gov't gives hugh dollars to the different Pharmaceutical firms for research, but when a "miracle drug if discovered, the Company gets the patent. The research costs were largely covered by the gov't funding, but the PUBLIC gets to pay greatly for the drug, and all the profits go to the Company. What a deal....we get to pay twice!!!!!

Similar examples apply to oil, agriculture, etc.

Think about it....

[andyjackson1828]

38. Exactly.....

Export-Import bank: billions in subsidies to the richest companies in the world: McDonalds, Microsoft, Boeing, Coke

Ag Subsidies: To big corporate farmers that have the side effect of also raising the price of food

Oil and Gas subsudies: letting then drill on public lands for the fraction of the cost of what the free market would bear.

[galadrium]

42. I couldn't agree more

[AP]

25. Tax cuts for the wealthy. Tax shift on to people who work for a living.

It's an expense which is creating incredibly polarization of wealth and relegating so many Americans to permanent underclass. It's an economy killer too. We expect the middle class to be the engine of economic growth.

We'll, we're depriving that enginge of the oil, gas, and new spark plugs. What we do with the tax code is going destroy America.

[dryan]

28. Miscellaneous

Continued Secret Service details for elderly former First Families. Did you know that until she died -- I think that she was almost 100 -- Mrs. Truman continued to have round the clock Secret Service protection?

Did you know that the US Navy is still paying to warehouse uniforms from before WWII? My mother used to work at the navy base here in Orlando and she told me this because they once had to do an inventory of this stuff!! These uniforms are totally obsolete but the government -- YOU -- are paying to keep this stuff stored in air conditioned buildings.

Tax breaks to send jobs overseas -- don't get me started on this one!

[leftyandproud]

29. military...90% should be cut

I'm serious.

[Sandpiper]

30. Our ridiculously large military budget

We're spending $400 billion/year on "defense." Which is about 7 times as much as the next nearest country.

And as we've seen over the past year, a military with that large a budget is primarily for aggression not defense.

And that $400 billion doesn't even include the $167 billion we've flushed down the toilet for our imperial conquest of Iraq.

[Bombtrack]

32. It's a foregone conclusion that the knee-jerk lib "defense" response

would dominate. Not that there isn't a ton of pork in the defense budget, but pork, it should be noted, although I'm not saying defense does not have the most waist, is in pretty much every federal agency and entitlement.

I think it's a waist to not have means testing for social security.

I think the National endowment for the arts is a waist. I could go on and on.

And, in case anyone read me wrong, I'm not saying that there is a huge problem with the defense budget, historically and today, but I think it is necessary to remain the biggest and strongest by a cultural margin. All the cold war-based big systems need to be phased out stat I understand, but I don't really think that the EU or Red China would serve the world better than the US as the top dog.

[Sandpiper]

33. The "wasteful" NEA

FY 2004 NEA budget: $139.4 million

FY 2004 Defense budget: $399.1 billion*

(*not including the additional $5 billion plus per month spent on the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan)


Yeah, we should cut the NEA altogether. It might buy us 3 more F-16's. :eyes:

[oldcoot]

36. Body armor

Yet the Defense Department does not have enough funds to provide our soldiers with body armor. What is wrong with this picture?

[Yupster]

48. $ 139 million could buy

a lot of textbooks though.

[IrateCitizen]

34. With so many "waists", what is the legs or torso?

BTW -- "Red China" is a good one. China hasn't been communist for several years now. They even no longer refer to themselves as "Communist China" but rather just "China".

BTW -- the question was the BIGGEST waste of money in the budget. Until either the NEA or SS cannot even ACCOUNT for over $3 trillion that they spent, they don't have ANYTHING on the Pentagon.

[LeahMira]

39. Why do you say that?

I don't really think that the EU or Red China would serve the world better than the US as the top dog.

Why do you think there would have to be a top dog? How about several top dogs?

Also, given the way the U.S. has handled world leadership since the Soviet Union broke up, why on earth would anyone think that the U.S. would be the best top dog?

Do you really think the U.S. should pretty much call the shots for the whole world? The thought gives me the willies!

[Bombtrack]

43. I'm talking about having the most powerful effective military

Nothing having to do with the fictional position of "world Boss" that you and others have seemed to take that as.

The fact is that there are few people if any who are owed more by this country than it's military men and women and people here don't seem to get that massive cuts in basic military technology will hurt them most. The people suggesting 90 percent cuts have no grip on reality. I think KUCINICH supported a 15 percent cut, and he is on the fringe of US foriegn policy. I say that for a number of reasons, such as his opposition to the strike against the Taliban and some of his more "far-out" proposals. But the fact that he proposes a 15 percent cut shows you how borderline whacked out people can be, IMO of course.

And I really don't think the Us has a worse foriegn policy record than the EU(much less China) post cold war.

[ulTRAX]

44. WHO'S THE ENEMY?

No one wants to send our troops out ill-trained and ill-equipped. But isn't the REAL issue here that as long as the powers that be are determined the US be an imperial power... then THAT wasteful mission is why troops might still be hurt even though we outspend the next 27 or so nations COMBINED and we and our allies spend some 624 BILLION compared to 7 billion by Bush's infamous Axis of Evil.

[dpibel]

51. But what's a trillion or two among friends?

You have heard about the trillion dollars the defense department can't account for? Somehow I doubt that much of that missing money did much for our military men and women.

How is it that it's necessary to spend more than the next 27 countries combined in order to maintain our top dog status? Just in passing, I'd be interested to hear what your definition of "top dog" is that makes wrong those who read it as "world boss." The distinction seems pretty fine to me.

And if we're so concerned about our military men and women, how's it happen that we're now spending more money on the military than ever before, but we can't pay hazardous duty pay, and we have to cut VA benefits? Seems to me that those holding the purse strings don't worry about the actual people doing the fighting as much as you do.

Finally: please acquaint me with the post-cold-war foreign policy issues that put China and the EU in pretty much the same league as the US.

[ulTRAX]

45. I too am disappointed by the kneejerk response

Of all the posts I read no one mentioned the 317 BILLION pissed away on interest on the debt. It's a FAR bigger waste of money than the military. And I'm also disappointed that you think the piddling spent on the NEA can in any way compare to interest on the debt.

This is why I asked for hard numbers.

[Yupster]

49. Interest on the debt

may be an incredible waste, but what do you do about it. You have to pay it. Your grandma may have her IRA invested in government bonds.

[ulTRAX]

63. What to do? Pay down the debt!!!

As for grandma.... it's not the purpose of the federal government to offer grandma a safe investment.

Even though the debt is way up since Bush was installed.... interest is down.... from around 360 billion a year to 318. But once interest rates go up again, one can only imagine what We The People will be paying.

The Democrats SHOULD be pounding the GOP hard on this issue. It cuts to the core of their hypocrisy... and their irresponsible fiscal policies.

[oldcoot]

35. Bush administration salaries

The fact that we are paying any of these incompetent morons is offensive.

[0007]

37. .... Soldiers dying on a daily basic for nothing but a lie

Soldiers with limbs missing and beautiful minds that have gone wasted.


How many children are left behind to have this kind of budget?

[wuushew]

40. Don't forget the war on drugs

the blackhole that is Colombian military aid is in itself staggering.

[IrateCitizen]

41. It's merely a subsidiary of the Pentagon (nt)

[Undemcided]

46. End the WOD

and release all non-violent drug offenders.

[Imajika]

52. Just read this thread...

...and you'll know why Democrats are considered weak on defense by the average American.

In a post 9-11 world, running around calling for military spending cuts is death. A majority of Americans associate Democrats and the left in general with defense cuts, and a quick read of the responses on this thread only serves to reinforce this view. Is it really any wonder that, no matter how Bush screws everything up, a majority of Americans will probably always view him as stronger on national security than virtually any Democrat?

I just hope that Kerry has the good sense to stay away from ANY talk of cutting defense spending.

Imajika

[Lydia Leftcoast]

53. Not if it's explained properly

not if he hammers away at the unaccounted for money (where did it go? embezzlement? kickbacks? black ops?), billions, maybe trillions unaccounted for while soldiers don't have adequate equipment.

You could make a case for redoing the Pentagon budget based on a strict cost-benefit analysis of all weapons systems and placing priority on making sure that the enlisted personnel are well-equipped and well taken care of.

How about telling the truth for a change--that the Pentagon is the biggest rat hole in the entire federal budget and that having all that money to play with only encourages the Little Boys Who Want to See Things Go Boom to get into stupid military adventures that have nothing to do with defending the country. Exhibit A: Iraq.

Tell the voters all the things that AREN'T happening because of all the money being poured into the Pentagon budget.

Tell the truth, tell it boldly, tell it often, don't let the Republicans set the agenda.

It would be so refreshing, and unless you're in some American Legion hall or something, it's not an unpopular opinion.

[IrateCitizen]

64. Our military has nothing to do with "defense"...

I can't say I'm surprised to hear you saying this, Imajika, because I recall you saying immediately after 9/11 that we should take advantage of the opportunity to invade Iraq. I'm well aware that you are a staunch supporter of the militarism that has infected our society over the years since the end of WWII.

That's fine, because a vast majority of Americans are supporters of it as well. But that doesn't make it right. I would suggest you read the books Blowback and The Sorrows of Empire by Chalmers Johnson for an excellent analysis of down what road this militarism is taking us.

Regardless of whether you support militarism or not, it is undeniable that the Pentagon is a place of massive waste. They can't pass an audit, so they're not subjected to them anymore. I mean, they can't account for where $3 trillion went over the last 40 years.

That's TRILLION with a T, BTW.

Furthermore, the system is set up so that you essentially get the same stuff no matter how much you put into it. When it comes to the state socialism of the military-industrial complex, money is budgeted without ANY negotiation of prices. The contractors actually charge whatever the hell they want. I find it amazing that supposed defenders of the "free market" are such staunch supporters of a system rife with such socialist overtones and cronyism. If you want a more detailed treatise, read Fortress America by William Greider.

Lastly, anyone that thinks that F-16 Fighters, Cruisers, Aircraft carriers and stealth bombers will win the "War on Terror" is a fool. Fighting such shadowy networks is done by massive intelligence efforts and undermining their areas of support. Dumping billions into obolete Cold War weapons systems is a fools errand, and while many of us don't expect the politicians to necessarily endorse cutting military spending in the current culture, it is still up to those of us with half a head on our shoulders who realize how the game is rigged to work to help others come to this realization as well, so that eventually we CAN overturn the cart of rotten apples.

Failure to do so will result in nothing less than a continuing slide toward tyranny and the end of the last vestiges of the old Republic. I'm not being overdramatic here -- I'm being completely honest.

[Zan_of_Texas]

67. Well said, Irate.

The "defense" a/k/a war budget:

1. Bigger than the next 20 countries combined

2. Increasing at a clip of 15% per year under Bush (so decreasing it 15% just takes it back to what it was one year ago.....not counting the add-on for two wars)

3. Contains an estimated 25% each year (~$100 billion) that CANNOT BE TRACKED . Just disappears into thin air. $100 billion is real money, folks. That is MORE than the red ink of all the state governments recently -- combined. It dwarfs the corporate bankruptcies that got so much ink.

4. Apparently the "watchdogs" supposedly watching over it are crooked.

For example:

Report: Pentagon Auditors Altered Files

Yahoo News Jan. 10, 2004
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20040110/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/watchdog_fraud

By LARRY MARGASAK, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - Pentagon auditors spent 1,139 hours altering their own files in order to pass an internal review, say investigators who found that the accounting sleuths engaged in just the kind of wasteful activity they are supposed to expose.

When the auditors in the New York City office learned well in advance which files a review team would check, they spent the equivalent of more than 47 days doctoring the papers and updating records from several audits, the Defense Department's inspector general concluded. Administrative staff, audit supervisors and other employees also participated in the scheme.

The fabrication at the Defense Contract Audit Agency "certainly violates the spirit and intent" of government auditing standards and rules on ethical conduct, according to the inspector general's report obtained by The Associated Press. <more>

~~~~~~~~~

Chuck Spinney on Moyers was AWESOME! For more info:
http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/defensesites.html
12/5/03 NOW with Bill Moyers with Chuck Spinney

~~~~~~~~

The Pentagon's own inspector general recently admitted that the department could not account for more than a trillion dollars of past spending. A congressional investigation reported that inventory management in the army was so weak it had lost track of 56 airplanes, 32 tanks, and 36 missile launchers.

"There's no accountability," said Danielle Brian, head of the Washington budget watchdog, Project on Government Oversight. "Any other agency would be closed down but the Pentagon is Teflon. Any challenge to the Pentagon is seen as unpatriotic." -- "So Much for the Peace Dividend," Guardian Unlimited, Julian Borger in Washington and David Teather in New York, May 22, 2003,
The Guardian <http://www.guardian.co.uk>

[jmowreader]

55. Zero-based budgeting

The first words out of every Republican candidate's mouth are "we have to run government like a business."

Guess what, kids: Running your finances to intentionally go broke on the last day of your fiscal year is no way to run a railroad. If you tried it in the private sector, you'd be sued for fiduciary irresponsibility, fired, tarred & feathered, and have "don't hire this person for anything having to do with money" tattooed across your forehead.

In the public sector, going broke on September 30 is required. If your department is not flat busted on the last day of the fiscal year, not only do you lose the money you saved, but they reduce your allocation for the upcoming fiscal year. Which explains why, every year I was in the Army, the last three days of September were some kind of drunken debauch on the public's dime. (And sadly enough, that's what we did with it one year--after we bought enough of everything we needed for the next ten years, we still had money left over--so we bought a case of hamburger patties and a keg and threw a unit party.)

The National Reconnaissance Office, one of America's better intelligence agencies, replaced all of its equipment in the Reagan Eighties. Their budget was the blackest in all the government at the time (hell, the existence of the organization was a deep dark secret) but their purchasing office was excellent at cost containment. Check this shit out: because their budget was black, they didn't have to report monies received versus monies expended, so over seven years they managed to stash $250 million under a mattress somewhere. They then proceeded to build a $227 million headquarters campus just outside Washington. Someone tipped off Congress that a huge office building had gone up and no one knew whose it was. When Congress learned that the NRO had managed to save up $250 million over seven years, they declassified the existence of the agency so that they could publicly humiliate and fire the director. Then they announced that the NRO budget would receive oversight so that "something like this" would never happen again. I'm sitting there thinking, if these guys can manage to save up $250 million, what could the government do if this was allowed?

Right now there is absolutely no incentive to save money. Because of zero-based budgeting, there is a lot of incentive to spend money on stupid shit--my guess is the $700 toilet seats you hear about were purchased on September 29 when the boss came in and said "here's the three thousand dollars we managed to not spend this fiscal year; get rid of it before close of business and I don't care how."

Zero-based budgeting is the biggest waste of money in the federal budget--far worse than the Defense Department.

[Yupster]

58. Zero based budgeting

is supposed to combat the ill you write of.

The idea behind zero based budgeting is you don't get what you got last year. You have to justify your request from scratch each year. What you describe is base-line budeting where your budget is based on what you spent last year.

BTW - when I was a teacher, we did the same thing you described. We got a modest departmental budget, which was usually 90 % still there in April. Then the department head would tell us to look for stuff we might want because we had to spend the budget by May so we could justify the same baseline next year.

[theoceansnerves]

57. unfortunately

i think it's also defense. however, i think you can pick and choose things out of the defense budget that are wasteful and others that are not so as to not seem like you hate the military. for example, shit like HAARP, SDI crap, the proposed resuming of nuclear weapons tests, etc. are all a waste.

[mulethree]

59. Maybe the wrong tree?

Maybe I'm wrong, But I don't know that you will find
tax cuts, loopholes, offshore tax breaks or corporate welfare (tax breaks) in the Budget? I don't think Iraq is in there either.

[William_WaLLace_]

61. MONEY TO ISRAEL!!!!!

Without a doubt the most powerful criminal rouge nation, thanks to our 17 billion a year!!!

[GreenPartyVoter]

66. MIlitary pork followed by coprorate subsidies

[skeptic9]

68. Promotion of "marriage" in the HHS budget.

Money that should be going to feed and clothe poor children is being diverted to fund college courses to teach "marriage skills" to the upper-middle-class.

Even if the money were going to promote marriage among the poor, there is absolutely no credible research to suggest pairing up poor people eliminates poverty or helps children. Causation seems to run in just the opposite direction: people with steady jobs can better afford marriage and middle-class homes.