I Would Like To Enter A (Serious) Discussion Re: Public Smoking

[matcom]

Thank you in advance (hopefully) for not turning this into a rabid anti-smoker/smoker flame fest.

To start things off, I am a smoker *disclaimer out of the way

A few years ago (at least in many places) it was required that if a BAR (note the distinction) wanted to allow smoking, they had to have a SEPARATE, SEALED OFF ROOM with a separate ventilation system for the smokers. THAT was the rule of the day. Granted, often this room was around the TV's (thinking sports bars here) but it was segregated nonetheless.

Now THAT isn't acceptable anymore as we smokers have been regulated outside. OK with me.

So.

NOW what non-smokers will encounter (and us smokers) is a huddled mass of smokers outside the door of all establishments. If you are out on a busy summer night, there could be as many as a dozen smokers at a time, lighting up right in front of the door to your favorite establishment. You will be FORCED to walk through this huddled mass to get inside. Gawd forbid it is raining out and there is an awning, for we will be huddled even closer together.

{note: i am aware there are some places where you have to be so many feet from the entrance but have YET to see this enforced and don't believe it can be}

in any case, the other thing i have observed is that there are almost NO ashtrays placed outside of most establishments. now, some of us are courteous enough to 'field strip' our butts and put them in our pockets but we are TOTALLY in the minority. so, MOST of the dirty (yes, smoking to me is a dirty habit) will be discarded on the sidewalk in front of your favorite establishment, where you will undoubtedly tip-toe on your way in. My guess is that most rabid non-smokers will make verbal statements as they enter regarding the litter and the filth (probably rightfully so).

Now, I am in the smoking camp that says if you DON'T provide a separate, ventilated room in your establishment, you probably shouldn't allow smoking. But, if you take the (rather expensive) steps to keep the populace segregated, you should as it is YOUR establishment.

So, I guess my question is, where will this all end? Will the non-smokers be satisfied to walk through heavy clouds of congregated smoke and disgusting litter in order to enjoy a smoke-free dinner or drink (which is their right as well) or will the 'sidewalk' smoker be the next target?

Thanks for keeping this 'civil' (not that i am necessarily expecting that)

[SoCalDem]

1. California passed a "50 feet away from doorways" law

It will never end..:(

[rinsd]

20. All of CA?

I thought that was jst Nazi Mar...opps Del Mar?

Then again they ticket you if you smoke in public.

[SoCalDem]

26. I think so..

I don't go out much..:)

The restaurant business lost us when they put the ban in place.. We used to eat out 2 or 3 times a week..and now it's about twice a month..sometimes

[rinsd]

Damn.....

"The restaurant business lost us when they put the ban in place.. We used to eat out 2 or 3 times a week..and now it's about twice a month..sometimes"

That's a shame. There are alot of places that have outdoor patios and with summer approaching you may want to give it a try. Are you near LA or SD or in the suburban boonies?

[SoCalDem]

43. The places we go HAVE the outside areas

and we pass many empty tables inside, as we are escorted to the patio area.. Actually we enjoy the patio areas..

We are near Riverside..

[rinsd]

60. Lovely country up there in Riverside...

I'm in OB now but did some business up that way.

[SoCalDem]

69. OB???

I admit I am a dunce.. where is that??

[rinsd]

73. Ocean Beach

We're LaJolla without money, Pacific Beach without the tourists, Mission Beach without the gangs and Imperial Beach without the smell!

It's a small slice off near Point Loma and home to the Sunset Cliffs.

[maveric]

86. Thats a great description of OB. I love it there.

Some OBers are trying to secede from the union and form its own state.
"The Black" is the bomb!

[rinsd]

92. Love this place...

"Some OBers are trying to secede from the union and form its own state."

Really? Not as up on the local scene as I thought.

[maveric]

115. They have been talking about this for 25 years now. OB humor I guess.

Have you been to Hodads yet?

[rinsd]

205. I actually have taken a break from Hodad's

I have cut down on my red meat consumption so I only hit it 1 a month at the most. I know they have turkey burgers, veggie burgers and "unburgers" but that seems like some kind of waste to go for at THE hamburger joint in San Diego.

I've been in OB for a little over 2 years but I still hang around Normal Heights.

[KittyWampus]

2. What About The Employees

Do the employees at a chicken processing plant know the dangers of working there when they get the job.
Couldn't they just get a job somewheres else?

[Skittles]

3. I don't understand smokers and I was one for 30 years

I never had a problem not lighting up in people's faces; I just took a freaking walk. What is the PROBLEM ???

[matcom]

6. i am a VERY curteous smoker

don't smoke in my house because many of our friends are non-smokers and we don't want THEM uncomfortable.

but, you just KNOW where this is headed

[arcos]

4. no, they won't be satisfied of course...

until concentration camps for smokers are set up.

[SoCalDem]

9. There IS such a place.. It's called Tahiti

Smoking is allowed EVERYWHERE, and no dirty looks..no "faux cough-cough"..

People are tolerant there of legal activities..

Because it's "normal" there, no one "has issues" with it..

Self-righteous indignation has not yet found its way to Tahiti

[Lindacooks]

35. 'Self righteous indignation' has nothing to do with it

If you can keep the smoke in your own lungs, away from me, smoke all your want to: I don't care if you burst into flame.

But your right to smoke ends at my nose. Period.

[rinsd]

40. Irony defined. (nt)

[SoCalDem]

55. you crack me up

:)

The Tahitian people we met were wonderful.. Happy...uninhibited..friendly...open... I wish I had the money to live there..:)

It must be the way Hawaii was about 50 years ago..

[SOS]

162. Slight rewording...

If you can keep your auto exhaust away from me and my bicycle, drive all you want, I don't care.
But your right to pollute the air with toxic petroleum exhaust ends at my nose. Period.

[Pithlet]

163. When we in the US live

in a society where it is easier to live without a car, then you have a point. But, public transportation does not exist in most places in the US. Even walking is becoming more difficult as more and more communities are not pedestrian friendly. I know there are exceptions, but most people have to drive. They have to be able to get to work, to doctor's appointments, to shop for food. You cannot equate driving with smoking a cigarette.

[Florida_Geek]

5. Like in Florida

a lot of restaurants put in outdoor sitting for smokers. OK but this is HOT Florida,,, now some anti-smoking groups are upset, because the restaurant gives all the GOOD seats to smokers.... go figure.

[blueraven95]

7. one of the problems...

about having the segregated rooms, is that often times, a non smoker had to walk through the smoking section either to be seated or to get to a bathroom.

As a non- smoker I do not mind hanging out with my smoker friends outside, but to be perfectly honest, the huge clouds of smoke that tend to be around the outside of resturants and theaters are truly gross.

[matcom]

8. IMHO, that should be a regulation

the 'smoking area' should, nay MUST, be situated so that non-smokers are not at ALL subjected to it for 'required reasons'.

bad planning IMHO.

if THAT were the law, would that suffice?

[sangh0]

34. Not really

Rules about smoking and smoking areas are like setting up an area for peeing in the pool. Only problem is, how do you keep the pee from floating into the area where the swimmers don't like pee?

[Triple H]

10. They should have a law banning smokers from smoking in front of an...

establishment. I don't know if we have one of those laws here in Minnesota, though. I hate walking through all that cigarette smoke entering a building. It's gross and makes me want to puke. :puke:

If you or anyone else doen't like the bannings, then how about just quit smoking? For one, your health will be in great shape...and secondly, you won't have to waste your money on that crap.

[matcom]

13. because it is a LEGAL PRODUCT

and yes, i am well aware of the health risks and would like to quit. i am adicted and maybe some day i'll be able to kick the habbit.

let me ask you this. say we are relegated to 'the lot across the street'

how long before YOU will want ME banned from THAT lot because YOU want to use it?

where are MY RIGHTS?

[Triple H]

24. Let me ask you this:

Why should my health be affected because you want to use your bad habit?

Keep your bad habits away from the people who want to be healthy.

[rinsd]

27. Well....

"Why should my health be affected because you want to use your bad habit?"

At what point do you need a asfety barrier where your health will be adversely affected DIRECTLY by second hand smoke?

[Triple H]

31. Anywhere I can smell cigarette smoke...

that's where I need a safety barrier.

I'm allergic to the cigarette smoke and I don't want to smell it when going into buildings. Breathing that shit in will make me gag and struggle for air. Would you want me to die because you wanted to smoke in front of a building???

If you have a problem with being "persecuted" because you're a smoker, then quit.

[sangh0]

47. That's a bad standard

Smoking bans are not about protecting your nasal sensitivities. It's about protecting the health of people who choose not to smoke.

I don't want to see ugly people on the street. They make me feel ill and naseous. That's too bad on me. The law isn't there to protect my sensibilities. It's not there to protect my comfort or my having fun.

The law is there to protect our rights.

If you have a problem with being "persecuted" because you're a smoker, then quit.

And if you have a problem with people acting legally in public, then stay home.

[Triple H]

53. Why should I be forced to stay home because of people with bad habits?

[sangh0]

58. Who forcing you?

All I did was enter a post. I didn't know it would pop out of your screen and hold you down.

Face it! People have bad habits, and when you're in public, they have a right to practice them right in your face. I don't like solicitors, squeegie-men, proselytizers, etc bothering me when I'm in public but in a free and democratic society, that's what you have to put up with.

And if you don't like it, you CAN stay home if you choose. No one is going to force you to stay home, but no one is gong to stop people from engaging in legal public behavior.

[John BigBootay]

114. Should it not be legal to have "smoking bars" --

and "non smoking bars?"

That seems perfectly reasonable.

A prominent / approved sign that indicated which category this bar falls under for all to see before they set foot inside.

Is that not a solution that all can handle?

[kiahzero]

192. If you read his post

You'd notice that he said that exposure to cigarette smoke makes him struggle for air... seeing as air is a critical part of life, being unable to go outside because of others smoking would, in effect, be those others forcing him to remain home.

Air = Critical for life.
Smoking != Critical for life.

Which one do you think should have priority?

[sangh0]

196. response

I'm not so sure of the seriousness of his/her condition. TH's descriptions have ranged from "it's unpleasant" to "it makes me struggle to breath" so I'm not sure how much of it is exagerration and how much is true. But regardless of this individual's condition, it does raise a good point that you build on - how do we balance protecting the health of some individuals while protecting the rights of others?

In order to resolve conflicts such as these, the law has developed numerous legal tests to distinguish between those conflicts that must be resolved by limiting some right or rights in order to protect some other right. In the case of public smoking vs asthmatics, I doubt the law would find that the problems asthmatic experience with smoke in public rises to the level necessary to justify the govt's limiting an individual's power to smoke in public.

IOW, there is no simple slogan or formula we can use to determine, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that something can be banned. "It's unhealthy" in and of itself, is not sufficient to justify a legal ban, which is why things like pork ribs and bacon cheeseburgers have not been banned. Tobacco differs from things like these because tobacco is a public health hazard which is one of the leading causes of death in this country.

[kiahzero]

210. Death or Illness vs. Smoking

Generally speaking, when deciding between the right of people to smoke tobacco, and the right of people to go out without worrying about having to go to the hospital because of people smoking tobacco, a rational government would choose to protect rights of tabacco smokers up to the point that that right infringes on the aforementioned right of asthmatics.

As for how much of the problem with smoking is true, my brother had to quit a job because he was having asthma attacks from the secondhand smoke... if he had wanted to, he probably could have sued under the ADA (Asthma, to wit, is a disability). Me, I can deal with it - it doesn't impair with my ability to breathe, it just makes my chest very uncomfortable.

"It's unhealthy" in and of itself, is not sufficient to justify a legal ban, which is why things like pork ribs and bacon cheeseburgers have not been banned.

Agreed. However, one thing you neglect to mention is that neither pork ribs nor bacon cheeseburgers pose a health threat to people who choose not to eat them, but happen to be exposed to those who do.

[rinsd]

61. LOL

I disagree with you on the ban itself but this made me laugh out loud.

"I don't want to see ugly people on the street. They make me feel ill and naseous. That's too bad on me. The law isn't there to protect my sensibilities. It's not there to protect my comfort or my having fun."

[rinsd]

57. Your's is a special case....

"that's where I need a safety barrier.

"I'm allergic to the cigarette smoke and I don't want to smell it when going into buildings. Breathing that shit in will make me gag and struggle for air."

Asthmatic? Or do you have allergies? While smoking may aggravate allergies and asthma, so does high pollen counts, smog etc.

"Would you want me to die because you wanted to smoke in front of a building???"

I don't want anyone to die. But you win the early prize for non-smoker hyperbole.

"If you have a problem with being "persecuted" because you're a smoker, then quit."

If you're an asthmatic who can't even smell a cigarette without having a massive and possibly fatal attack, I suggest you move to where smoking is banned.

[Skidmore]

188. My daughter is also allergic to cigarette smoke and did

almost die when she was a teenager from hanging around with a crowd of adolescent smokers. NO ONE smokes on my property, in my car, or in my workspace.

I'm with you. You have a choice not to smoke but you don't have a choice not to breathe.

[matcom]

28. i have kept them away

i am outside

when/if i were inside (inside my relegated smoking room) you were away from it as well.

i am not complaining about being outside at all. but will you still bitch BECAUSE i am outside?

read up and down a few posts. i am probably one of the most curteous smokers you will meet

[Triple H]

33. I don't want to have to smell it when I go into a building.

I'm allergic to the cigarette smoke.

I'm glad you don't smoke inside and that you are courteous. :)

[TahitiNut]

120. Cigarette smoke is not an allergen.

Period.

[Pithlet]

164. Then how come

it is one of the things they test for when testing for allergies? Cigarette smoke came up positive as an allergen for me.

[sangh0]

197. They test for an allergy to tobacco

not cigarette smoke.

[demigoddess]

171. I beg to differ, it is toxic, not allergic ,

did you know that there is formaldehyde in that thar cigarette smoke plus ammonia, there are hundreds of chemicals on cigarette smoke. Formaldehyde gives me the hugest migraines you've ever seen. some times 5 or 6 days long., Lasts a lot longer than that cig you smoked. Does a smoker have a right to do that to me?

[bloom]

159. "where are MY RIGHTS?"

Are you sure you're not asking for a flamefest?




Get back to me 6 months after you've quit and are a rationaly being. :)

[Jose Diablo]

44. Ha..There it is, the real motive

"how about just quit smoking?"

Carrie Nations again. Doing 'right' never ends. LOL

"You should quit smoking, you will feel better." ROTFLMAO

[Triple H]

48. What's so funny about a person's health?

I'm glad you think this is all funny. :eyes:

[sangh0]

62. There's nothing funny about a person's health

But your nose and it's sensibilities is not the same thing as your health.

[Jose Diablo]

77. Well, first-off

You showed you real motive. I find non-smokers concern for my health over the top.

Secondly, that so called 'scientific' study showing the dangers of second-hand smoke was just so much baloney.

Lastly, what I do to MY lungs is MY business, not YOURS or the governments. I find it very instructive the so called settlement between the states and the tobacco companies nothing more than Judicial Tax, which IS illegal. The power to tax rest solely with the legislative branch of government. The legislatures couldn't pass a tax so they make a deal with the judge to impose a tax through the courts.

They couldn't pass the tax because it is illegal to tax something out of existence. They can ban it, that would be legal. But you know how banning tobacco would go over. The people would see it for what it really is. Just like alcohol prohibition. Would work just as well as that exercise is social engineering.

You may also note, supposedly this tax was supposed to be used for future health care costs incurred by smokers using state's Medicare. Well, so far the tax has been spent on golf courses and other civic necessities. Not only this, but many states sold bonds based on future receipts of these judicial taxes. Thus the states could spend the future money now.

I must express my deepest deepest appreciation for your concerns for may health, but you can take your deep concern my health and place it firmly, firmly mind you, up your rectum.

[Triple H]

84. Keep your right to smoke away from those who don't want...

to fall ill because you don't care about your health. I happen to care about mine.

Keep your smoking away from me. And you think that secondhand smoke stuff is baloney? You tell me that the CDC is a bunch of baloney too. Go to the following link and read up on secondhand smoke. You might learn something.

http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/factsheets/secondhand_smoke_factsheet.htm

[Jose Diablo]

97. Hey, you want the truth

"We'll take a detailed look at two SHS studies. The first, the EPA 1993 report, is the basis for most of the SHS legislation and restrictions in the US. Once you see exactly what they did, and how they did it, you may never trust the EPA again. The second study, carefully conducted by the World Health Organization, had some very surprising results"

http://www.davehitt.com/facts/

Or are you more interested in quoting false assertions to make your real point, you do not like smoking and you want everybody else to quit smoking. Come clean, thats your real motive, isn't it?

[Djinn]

105. it's that easy

"then how about just quit smoking"....(slaps forehead) dang I never thought of that!

Can't help but wonder how many of the smoking nazi's also call for MORE tolerant attitudes to OTHER drug users.

When I was a smoker (up until recently and I'll no doubt start again) I never smoked inside - but if you're standing outside in any western city you're gulping in TONNES more cancer causing pollutants from the traffic than the smoker's puny ciggie. How 'bout throwing some indignant stares and righteous coughing in THEIR direction

I didn't smoke when it upset other people but sometimes their total over-the-top reaction to someone lighting up was ridiculous - the absolute FACT is that "second hand smoke" in an open area is doing bubkiss to your health (maybe if you stood squished up against a smoker and took deep breaths FAIR enough) you'd be better off complaining about industrial and automotive pollutants - why should I have to put up with the stink from YOUR car??

[mdmc]

179. In NY, we say we have to go inside for some fresh air, LOL

you know, on breaks and stuff/

[ixion]

11. I personally think smokers are a persecuted lot...

but then again, I'm a smoker. :smoke:


Seriously, if someone wants to run an establishment and allow people to smoke in their establishment, I think it ought to be up to the patron, rather than Big Brother, about who can smoke and where.

That's just me though...

[xchrom]

12. i smoke

don't smoke in the house.
don't go out with my friends as much cause cali makes it so hard.
that's just the way it is i guess. i like sitting up to the bar not at a table. and i really miss smoking then.

[rinsd]

17. I don't smoke in my apartment either.

Living in San Diego has its advantages. Being able to grab a butt outside is one of them.

[rinsd]

14. I feel bad for those outside SoCal

Having a butt during winter must be brutal. Since alot of bars/restaurants here in San Diego already have outdoor patios and stuff, it wasn't such a harsh transition. And some bars have enclosed places so you can smoke while you still have your drink in hand(as God intended ;-)). Yeah it stinks when its time for coffee and I can't have my favorite compliment to it but I can't imagine the hell it is for smokers in NYC.

[wysimdnwyg]

15. As a reformed smoker...

I readily admit to being very vocal about my disgust of the habit. I firmly believe that all workplaces should be smoke-free, and smoking should not be allowed withing a reasonable distance of any and all public entrances to buildings.

I do respect your right to kill yourself, even if it IS on the "30-year plan", but I think you have no right to take me with you. Cigarette smoke is a known carcinogen, and second-hand smoke is almost as bad as smoking the damn things yourself. If I wish to go to a bar and see a band play, watch a sporting event or just hang out with my friends, I should not have to put my life at risk because someone else is too weak to break that nasty habit. And segregation is not the answer, as many of my friends smoke. What would we do, split into two groups?

Sunday, I went to a bar for a benefit. While there, I ordered some food. Almost as soon as I start eating, my friend asked if I minded if she smoked while I ate. Now, bear in mind, I have repeatedly announced my disdain for being around smoke, and she is well aware of my feelings on the matter. And still, like most smokers (I can say this because I was the same way), the sheer foulness of it does not even seem to register. She got mad because I didn't want to "eat her cigarette", and some would put it.
Later, she came back and lit one up. Not two minutes later, the woman in the next booth asked her to put it out, as she could taste it in HER food. It didn't help that my friend was sitting sideways in the booth, with the cigarette in the hand closest to the woman. Once again, my friend got mad.

I bring this up because it is a perfect example of the insensitivity of most smokers. "Who gives a shit what you want, I'm addicted and I want a smoke. You'll just have to deal with it." Well I say screw YOU! You may have the right to kill yourself with those things, but you do NOT have the right to kill me. If you don't like it, you, the smoker, should have to take your business elsewhere. I'm not the one who is imposing here. (Note: That small tirade is not directed at matcom, but at smokers in general.)

[matcom]

21. don't lump us all into one class

i take pride in being a VER curteous smoker.

i never would have asked you whether you minded. if you are with me and you don't smoke, i am outside REGARDLESS

don't lump me in with your 'friend'

[wysimdnwyg]

186. I don't lump you all into one class...

when it comes to courtesy. I recognize that many smokers accept that many people do not want to be around it, and I definitely appreciate your willingness to go elsewhere (to the bar, outside, etc.) The point is that far too many people DON'T show the same courtesy, and will light up right in front of us. And think about this. Do you show the same courtesy to people not in your group? Meaning, if everyone in your group smokes, do you still go outside, so as not to bother others in the bar?

[atldem]

45. Were you sitting in the smoking section?

If you are in an area that is defined as allowing smoking then I would expect there to be smoke!

There are so many places that are non-smoking. Restaurants, malls, theaters, all public buildings even outdoor stadiums. I think that you could probably find some place that is smoke free to eat. If a business owner allows smoking in the establishment then here's an idea: DON'T GO!!!

I can't tell you how many times I've been out with friends and the place is non-smoking (which I am happy to comply with) only to have my time ruined by a crowd of obnoxious drunks. Alcohol not only hurts the person using it but affects all the people around that person. But here's the thing -- it's legal. If I go to a bar I expect people to be drinking and some of them might be drunk. If I'm not in the mood to deal with rude loud behavior and the possibility of being mowed down in the parking lot then I DON'T GO!!!!

[wysimdnwyg]

187. Smoking section?

In Tennessee, bars do not have smoking and non-smoking sections. It's ALL a smoking section. In fact, a recent attempt by several municipalities (including mine) to change a state law was voted down. The law they wanted to change prohibits cities and counties from setting their own policies with regard to smoking. So now we're stuck with the state law that is backed by tobacco companies that allows smoking just about anywhere. It's up to individual establishments to set any more stringent policies. If I don't want to be around cigarette smoke, I have no choice but to not go. There are no bars in Nashville (at least that I know of) that do not allow smoking. I can assure you, if there were, they would be high on my list of places to go.

As for this case in particular, I did not go there to eat. I went for a benefit concert. A concert that was featuring a friend's band. It's not like I could just choose to go to a mall or theater to see them. This is where they played, so that's where I went. I ate there because I was hungry and they serve food.

I can not say I disagree with your complaint about drunks. They can be extremely annoying, and quite dangerous if they're driving. The difference is that they are not usually anything more than a nuisance inside the bar. And if they get TOO bad, a word with the owner, manager or bouncer is usually enough to resolve that issue.

[seabeyond]

118. I do respect your right to kill yourself,

i am seeing you jumping up and down in glee when some smoker is told they have lung cancer

this is the sad of the anti smoking group i read thru these two threads.

i knew i didnt want to come in this thread either

[wysimdnwyg]

189. "i am seeing you jumping up and down in glee ...

when some smoker is told they have lung cancer"


That is rude and uncalled for. I would never take pleasure in such misfortune. My Grandfather died of cancer after smoking for 30 years. I am offended that you would think I am that cold-hearted.

[seabeyond]

193. it is jsut a feel i get

i feel it in other things too. and it is a human behavior, a thank god i am not in that place; response. i feel the same with the seatbelt. a horrible crash, people die, and you hear at the end, and they did not wear their seat belts, like that makes it different

or, in excited tone, they were wearing seatbelts, in horror that seat belt didnt protect someone from death.

then fear comes, we may not protect self from death.

from a smokers perspective, my in laws in a decade regardless of love as mother or wife to their son, their brother.......my in laws create all of who i am as a smoker

told husband a couple years ago, i can be hit by a bus crossing the street and i would see them all at my grave looking down at the coffin, arms crossed head shaking back and forth and a mumble,

i told her smoking was gonna kill her.

told him i dont want his family at my funeral if i die from smoking. and i mean it from a heart. i dont feel they will honor the life i am.

so............putting out for a little reflection and balance here

and those non smokers that call me a friend. the way i have heard some talk about their firend, geez, i would have no desire to have that person as a friend. not the kind of people i hang with. i want much more from a friend. if a friend treated my smoking in hostility and ugliness,...........why waste my time. why waste their time, if they dont value me

[AndyP]

16. we have a 25 foot rule

here on campus. Seemed like a good idea cuz of all the people huddled around the door. Now that the snow has melted we've noticed a butt-load of cigarette butts all over the place.
My feeling is when people go to a bar they don't plan on doing pilotes or soemthing, I don't think health is the main concern of bar-goers. I have a different feeling about resteraunts though, I think smoking should be in a seperate room or not at all. Just my $0.02

[SoCalDem]

19. Pricey private "Cigar Clubs" allow smoking

Get rich, take up cigars, and you're OK :)

[rucky]

18. If non-smoking businesses do so well

because everybody's so grateful not to smell smoke, then why the urgent need to pass laws?

If there were a true demand for smoke-free establishments, wouldn't the free market recognize that & capitalize on it?

If I want to smoke at a bar, I'll go to Moe's. If you want to drink at a smoke-free bar, go to Joe's. It's that simple.

Now I understand enforcing bans in public buildings and enclosed spaces like airplanes, but jeez.

Before you present to me the "public health" arguement, I'd like to see studies as to how much secondhand smoke one is actually exposed to in public, and how much one needs to be exposed to - and over what period of time - before it becomes a risk factor. If you're of the camp that says any amount of smoke is too much smoke, then your opnions are just that & please stop trying to legislate them. People trying to legislate hysterics is one of the #1 complaints that liberals have against conservatives. (think gay marriage).

ps: I am not a smoker.

[rhino47]

29. The local Arbys banned smoking for three weeks

But they now placed an ad in the local paper advertising a new smoking section.It seems local smokers would go to Arbys in the early morning to enjoy a smoke and a cup of coffee.As soon as Arbys
banned smoking they stopped coming.Basically its a matter of money.
I do not think that people should be subjected to second hand smoke.But on the other hand neither should smokers be portrayed with pitchforks and horns .

[Robin Hood]

22. The free market should of dealt with this.

It is ridiculous that the vitriol of non-smokers has been turned into legislation. Why didn't the free market provide smoke free establishments? If there was such a huge need of non-smokers to go out to bars, then why weren't there restaurants/bars that were completely non-smoking?

If this were a true free market society drugs and prostitution would be legal, and you could still smoke at a bar in California. We all tout the free market but refuse to let it flourish.

[sangh0]

52. The free market?

What free market? Last time I looked, we had a regulated marketplace and if you wanted a free market, you'd have to go to Eritrea

[mdmc]

180. lol, you sound like a NY'er. Free market = bong hit bars

[sangh0]

198. heh!

Yeah, I'm from NYC

[mdmc]

208. I don't drink much or smoke

but I go out to bars much more now. I have alcoholic friends that spend each night out drinking . They don't stay at home.

[Kenneth ken]

23. ex-smoker

(two years tomorrow, yay me)

I do believe it will never stop; the people who are virulently anti-smoking have won some victories, and so are encouraged to keep on pushing until smoking is completely outlawed, even in the privacy of one's home.

I wouldn't kick any one out of my house for smoking, though if the weather is nice, I'd kind of prefer them to be outside. Of course, all of us will usually be outside if the weather is good. In nasty weather, I would prefer them inside. I don't have people over whom I dislike, so why would I treat guests badly? I have limited space,so factor in who smokes v who doesn't in inviting guests and don't have conflicts over it.

As a smoker, I always defered to the homeowners; if they were smokers, I was comfortable smoking inside; if they weren't I wouldn't even consider lighting up indoors. On the rare occasions one smoked, the other didn't I would opt for outside.

Of course, if one is a smoker, one will inevitably have some smoke permeating their attire, and on the breath, so it's impossible not to bring that into any environment you inhabit. And those are the components which will cause the virulently anti-smokers to never cease.

[KittyWampus]

25. One More Time: WHAT ABOUT EMPLOYEES?

What about the people who have to work in smoke filled rooms daily?

Would you protest a business that forces its employees to work unprotected from asbestos?

[matcom]

32. spent 15 years in the restaurant business

if someone wished to NOT be stationed in the smoking area, THEY NEVER WERE

this spanned maybe 8 or 9 restaurants/bars over my career

not ONCE was an employee forced to work in the smoking section. NOT ONCE

it is a BIG DEAL within the industry and there is MUCH respect for non-employee smokers

next Strawman?

[KittyWampus]

39. So It's Okay To Allow Someone To Inhale Cigarette Smoke

8-10 hours a day?

And if the employee contracts lung cancer after 5 years, can they sue the business?

[sangh0]

56. Several generations in the restaurant business

and while the places you worked at may have been nice about, the overwhelming number of them treat their employees like shit. It's one of the few jobs that don't have to observe minimum wage laws.

And in states that allow smoking in bars, there is no non-smoking section in the bars.

[matcom]

68. you don't know the business if you make a statement like that

worked in MANY different types of places and what you say i absolutely UNTRUE

you are OBVIOUSLY a rabid one and i shall now put you on ignore since you underminded the stated purpose of this thread

buh-bye

sorry, looking for 'intelligent' discussion

[sangh0]

78. We've owned MANY different types of places

and what YOU say is not universally true. The post you responded to has only one strong word in it (ie "shit") and it's not a vcery unusual one. Obviously, you think any difference in opinion is "rabid", just as you mistakenly took me for an anti-smoker.

[mdmc]

181. matcom, buddy if you were a bus boy, you bussed all tables

If your place allowed smoking, you stank like shit when you left after your 8 hour shift, even if you never went in the smoking section.
That smoke goes the way the wind blows.

[SoCalDem]

36. There are some employees who actually smoke, themselves

and probably in bars.. No oone is FORCED to be a bartender, cocktail waitress..

There are many dangerous jobs..

"protective gear" only really protects the employers from lawsuits..Lots of people who wore protective gear still got sick..

If a bar advertised itself as "This place allows smoking", and a non-smoker applied, and signed paperworks saying that they were aware, they are accepting the risk.. They could apply at one of the millions of OTHER places that did NOT allow it if they were truly worried about their health..

It's actually a simple solution.. If the non-smoking places are such a brilliant idea, they should have many more jobs available anyway.. Why would a non smoker even want to work at a place that openly allowed smoking ??

[KittyWampus]

50. Same Applies To People Working In Chicken Processing Plants

or coal mines.

Sorry, but lighting up a bunch of cigarettes a day and smoking is NOT equivalent to inhaling cigarette smoke continuously for 8-10 hours a day.

[rucky]

46. they knew when the took their jobs

or went to bartending school.

The union which started the ban in California were co-opted by a minority of antismokers & trial lawyers. The members never voted on whether to support the legislation. Search the archives of the LA Weekly - there was a good article on it, like 10 years ago when this stuff all started.

Anecdotally, most of the food/bar workers I know are either smokers themselves, or at least have complained about loss of tips since the bans. I think if the union did take a vote, the laws would be scrapped.

[Bonhomme Richard]

49. Let them go someplace else to work.

Maybe the smoke free restaurant. That's why you don't see thousands of people lining up to be septic tank cleaners. Maybe the smoke free restaurant.
You can't protect people from everything. What if the bar has a band. Should bands be banned because the employees might have thier hearing affected?

[KittyWampus]

54. Yes, Let The Factory Workers Work Somewheres Else

what hypocracy... any other profession involving subjecting people to TOXIC FUMES/MATERIALS people would be railing aginst the Business.

[sangh0]

199. Let the bar owners find a new job

if they don't like the smoking ban

My sympathies lie with workers

[John BigBootay]

126. I support the idea of smoking and non-smoking bars--

And I would say this about the subject of employees:

Current employees would have the option of staying in the smoking establishment or leaving.

If they choose to leave, the bar is obligated to pay the employee a "relocation fee" to cover the inconvenience and expense of finding another job. Perhaps 4 weeks salary plus an average amount of tips.

After the employees have made their move, there is no further obligation on the part of the bar owner.

[demigoddess]

173. smoking and non smoking establishments would be great

because there is no way to segregate a room and its air from the rest of the building. When I had my last child there was one room for smoking mothers, but at about 3 am both my baby and I woke to headache and bad feeling from the smoke coming in through the air conditioning vents. Eventually smoke spreads all over a building.

[sangh0]

30. Smoking bans have nothing to do with litter, comfort, aesthetics

or any of the other petty concerns you have mentioned. Smoking bans have been put in place to protect the health of the people who have to breath in other people's smoke.

[Robin Hood]

38. Yet I am sure that you drive your car wherever you go.

And I am forced to breathe in your car pollution, and just look at what your car smoke is doing to the environment and global warming. But hey, Keep on trucking.

Furthermore, how many children will you have and how much will they polutte over their lifetime and their kids lifetime and so on.

[sangh0]

67. I don't own a car

I use public transportation, and I have no problem banning cars from urban areas, so please stop the BS about my car.

It doesn't exist.

[mdmc]

182. I leave my car outside, cause it would stink up the joint.

[Triple H]

42. Yes they have.

I want to remain healthy and not breathe in that cigarette smoke.

[sangh0]

70. ???

Did you mean to respond to me, because I don't have a clue what you're talking about.

[Mari333]

37. another reason, matcom, I moved out to the country on 13 acres

of land, where I hide in the woods from human beings, the nosiest most obnoxious 3rd generation ape busybodies on earth.
I stay away from them, they are nosy, judgemental, busybodies who want to stick their nose in your personal business over and over because they have no lives.
If its not left fascists screaming incessantly about smoking, its right fascists screaming incessantly about who you can f*ck in your bedroom and how you can do it.
I stay away from the lot of them.
One year I decided to let my lawn go environmentally healthy, and allow it to be all wildflowers and wildness. I had over 10 people drive into my driveway and tell me to mow it. I told them to get bent after espousing the health of my environmental surroundings.
I dont go to restaurants or any places of establishment, where human beings are, they just get on my nerves. I do smoke, and I always laugh when I think of a bouffant haired woman bejewelled with Cubic Zirconia's faux diamonds, a petit bourgeousie snuffleupagas, come up to me once at a park and tell me how smoking would damage my health, after she got out of a large SUV gas guzzler.
She reeked of chemically stinking perfume, which I am allergic to, and she probably uses bleach and ammonia, which I dont, and she probably uses Orkin on her lawn, which I dont, I own a nature preserve of 13 acres, all wild.
I watched her railing at me for smoking, and as a vegetarian I wondered how many chemicals and pollutants were racing thru her body from hormones in meat and milk, and as I watched her I wondered how many chemicals it took to colour her hair, and the fact that she weighed about 400 lbs, and her finger wagging made me laugh.
These people are busybodies, and they arent worth my time nor my energy.
On either side, they are busybodies. The left is loaded with them also. Tell them to shove it. I do.
Mari333

[FlaGranny]

129. Mari, I was waiting for you to show up here because

in the other thread you mentioned something about fat people - I don't remember your post exactly - something about your insurance rates. I was just waiting to tell ya about insurance rates being high because of all those folks with emphysema and lung cancer. If you're worried about high insurance costs for fat people's illnesses, why are you not so worried about the rates caused by smokers?

Darned fat people, all they have to do is stop eating!!!

This post should be read in the spirit it was posted - with a smile. Please don't take offense.

[The Lone Liberal]

41. Aside from the fact it smells like shit....(I am a smoker)

It is not going to kill you in quicker than a trip to your local doctor. (One Hundred Thousand Americans die each year from medical error.) Or, die any quicker from toxic waste (35,000 die each year from smoke stack pollutants.) Or, because they are now feeding us cats and dogs and calling it "Beef."

The point of all that is smoking is only one of the things that is killing us, hell, Sugar, which we are subsidizing to the tune of $4.5 billion is killing us quicker than tobacco.

It does smell like shit.

[Ripley]

51. My dad calls my ex-smoker sister "born again."

And it is true. She used to smoke and now that she quit (great for her) she doesn't want my Dad to smoke around her in his own home and goes nuts when she smells smoke in public. Now I happen to be a part-time smoker (laugh...but I have met many folks like me who don't smoke for weeks, then bam, an environment usually with alcohol involved, and we smoke) and have no problem with smoke-free public places, airplanes, grocery stores, etc.

But bars? I don't understand how many bars in Ireland will survive with the zero-smoking ban in place now. Private business owners should be allowed to choose their status (non-smokers...don't go there) and as far as people kicked on the street? Well, they should have a humane break area.

Sorry, I don't have a good answer for you Matcom. I've seen DU posts about arresting people who smoke in their cars with kids which I think is a highly offensive thing...talk about your BIG BROTHER.

[Mari333]

64. heh my brother is an ex AA person talk about a pain in the ass

Deacon of his church, big blowhard, hes saved now and lets everyone know whats good for them.
I avoid him like the plague, the little shit.
I smoked in the house when I had kids, and they are all fine. Ya know what? if someone would have tried to pass a law against what I do on my own property, I would shoot them if they tried to tell me what to do.
No one tells me what I can do on my own property. Or in my car, and I think seat belt laws are horseshit and a result of the insurance companies.
I walk.
Theres a lot of nosy people out there. They need lives or need to use all that hatred of smokers energy to be put to better use. Maybe attack corporations that create global warming? hey theres an idea.

[Ripley]

88. Yowza Mari!!!

That's some stance! But I'm confused...he's "ex AA" and Deacon of his church? So he's a drinkin' Deacon?

[Mari333]

122. He doesnt drink now, hes more of an asshole now

because hes been saved. Now his biggest sin is Pride, but I will just sit back and watch him fall from that at some point.

[FeebMaster]

59. Speaking of smoking,

I could go for one right now. In fact, I think I will.

[atldem]

66. I'm going to join you!

n/t

[trumad]

75. Ahhh the desperate masses

Clutching their cute little cig cases as they head out doors to smoke a cancer stick. You ever take a good look at these groups of smokers...Hair's all dingy, wrinkled face especially around the lips, they just flat out look unhealthy. I often tell my kids as we walk past these seriously addicted fools "Look kids, smoke cancer sticks and that's what you'll look like!

So is this argument just about Restaurants? Hey...you gotta walk through the same cancer ridden gauntlet when you walk into a public building.

[FeebMaster]

85. Desperate? If you say so. (nt)

[Djinn]

144. yeah - generalise much

"Hair's all dingy, wrinkled face especially around the lips, they just flat out look unhealthy"

So the fact that a large percentage of people who make a living out of the fact that they're "beautiful" smoke???

And all those ugly as sin non drinking, non smoking, non drug taking, no-sex, no dancing wowsers...just cursed by God??

[FeebMaster]

82. Ahhhhh.

That hit the spot.

[devilgrrl]

63. Hey Non-smokers! Go jog behind a bus!!!

I find it fascinating that people get up in arms about cigarette smoke but NOT A F***ING PEEP!!!! about industrial or vehicle exhaust!!!! Tell me that the damage to the ozone layer, the oceans and forests is from smoking. Tell me that brownish/grey haze over the horizon of Los Angeles is second hand cigarette smoke. COME ON! LET'S HERE IT!!! :mad::mad::mad:

[arcos]

65. I totally agree with you!

it pisses me off too

[dolo amber]

74. *snort*

'Nuff said. ;) :bounce: :yourock:

[Triple H]

80. You think that's a fair arguement?

Smog and industrial exhaust are outside, where they're diffused. They aren't nearly in the quantities as they would be if they were inside a building.

In a bar or some other building, cigarette smoke doesn't diffuse anywhere. It lingers in the air for hours. It gets into people's clothes. It can cause serious health problems to those who are nearby. How many people do you know that have their clothes smell like industrial exhaust or smog? I'm betting none.

[devilgrrl]

87. Yes, it's a fair argument!

My niece has asthma, neither of her parents are smoker, so how did it happen?

The point I was making is that exhaust released into the environment causes far more damage to living creatures than being stuck in a smokey bar for a few hours. Direct your outrage to an issue that actually matters.

[Triple H]

89. Obviously you didn't pay attention to my post.

[devilgrrl]

93. I paid attention to your post just fine...

You don't like my argument? Too bad!

[devilgrrl]

99. You obviously have never spent time a printing shop...

or how about a dry cleaners? Then there's the gool old tool & dye industry. And don't forget mining!!!

[Djinn]

145. I'm guessing YOU

live in a nice leafy green suburb (like I used to) coz where I live plenty of people's clothes stink of industrial pollution.

As for the "dissapates" argument - you might wanna look into that a bit further many industrial pollutants do not dissapate much at all - many of them stick around in the air/water for GENERATIONS no-ones' cigarette smoke does.

I'm all for the banning of smoking in PUBLIC buildings, private business should have the choice...you can "choose" not to in there - in public, well when everyone else stops driving cars - maybe the smokers can be guilted into butting out.

[sangh0]

81. What about smokers? Are they immune to bus fumes?

I find it funny when smokers get up in arms about any sort of air pollution, but smoking tobacco...NOT A F***ING PEEP!

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jeffrey_X]

141. Nice.

You are comparing apples and oranges. What the fuck do dead spots in the ocean have to do with me not wanting to breath someone's nasty fucking cig smoke??

[devilgrrl]

168. Dead Spots in the Ocean is a much more serious issue...

than passive cigarette smoke. For Christ's sake, you can't smoke anywhere anyway, so shut the f*** up about it already! As if it's the most pressing health issue facing the nation. Talk about putting a band-aid over a gunshot wound!

:argh:

[jeffrey_X]

138. Buses aren't controlled by individuals...cigarettes are.

Buses serve a purpose in our society, cigarettes do not.

I agree with you about pollution and emmissions, but your analogy is fla\/\/ed.

[devilgrrl]

169. No it isn't.

And quit acting as if people smoke solely to piss other people off.

:freak:

[Pithlet]

170. Then don't act

as if those who are bothered by cigarette smoke are doing so only to piss off and repress smokers. Non-smokers have a legitimate beef, even in the face of all the other problems you mention.

[devilgrrl]

177. Then don't get all high and mighty!

Where's the beef if you can't smoke anywhere anyway?

[Pithlet]

178. Good question.

What is the problem? All I see is defensiveness from the smokers towards those who can't stand second hand smoke. What is so high and mighty about being bothered by smoke? It smells. It's an irritant at best, and for people with conditions like asthma, it's even worse. I and others would like to go to public places and not be affected by it. Most public places are smoke free now, which is a great thing. I think that, aside from bars, all public places, including restaurants that don't serve alcohol, should be smoke free by law. Nothing high and mighty about that. It's not as if it is preventing anyone from smoking who wants to.

Edited to add that by public places I mean places indoors. I don't support a ban on smoking outdoors, except near common entrances.

[BiggJawn]

203. I wonder what's oozing out of my furniture?

Formaldahyde? Urea? Acetone?

Why does new carpet smell the way it does?

where do the fumes from the stove pilots go?

More hazards than just smoke in the home.

I quit smoking a year ago, I refuse to be come one of those "Born-Agains" nobody can stand....

[devilgrrl]

71. Like Bill Hicks said...

"Non-smokers die.... EVERYDAY!"

[rinsd]

96. LOL

I was trying to find an mp3 of that. I just saw the documentary on him on Trio network.

[HornBuckler]

72. Chew!

To Hell With It And Chew! You Can Chew In Church, The Movies, Hospitals - ANYWHERE. So When In Public Chew, And At Home Smoke

Problem Solved

[ibegurpard]

76. I smoke

And I don't even have a huge problem with them banning smoking inside of buildings or around the entrances. What I really, really have a problem with is situations like, as was discussed on a thread here some time ago, some municipality in, I believe, California was not going to allow people who smoked to hired by either the Sheriff's department or police department (can't remember all of the specific details). That's taking it WAY too far. If I'm going to be considerate enough to keep my smoking away from everyone who doesn't want to breathe it, then that should be enough for them. Unfortunately, it won't be for some of the anti-smoking brigade. I don't think they're as concerned about people who have to breathe second-hand smoke as they are about trying to make sure that no one can smoke, period.

[hippiegranny]

79. well, nice try

but i don't think there is such a thing as a "serious" discussion about this issue. after reading this lengthy thread i haven't seen that one single person has changed their perspective on it at all.

[matcom]

83. *sigh* will you record in history the fact that i at least TRIED?

x(

[trumad]

91. The main problem is smokers and those who stand around smokers

smell like a pile of shit once they get home...OOOHHH there's nothing like picking your clothes up in the morning and smelling a big pile of shit cause by other fools cancer sticks... Yah be pruod smokers...

[matcom]

94. so, Trumad...

WHERE will you have us 'relegated' to where YOU will be satified?

[trumad]

100. Right where you are now....

I don't mind that you smole outside and by the door... Just don't do it in the place that will effect non-smokers.

[matcom]

101. if i 'smole' outside my door and NOT in my house

where will you legislate ME at MY door NEXT?

isn't that next?

[trumad]

103. If you're blocking the door then perhaps...

but you know that's not the case...Smokers usually smoke away from the door and that doesn't bother me... I simply move away from where they're smoking. God...cna't you guy's go an hour without a Cig?

[matcom]

106. STAY AWAY FROM MY FUCKING DOOR THEN!

i go OUTSIDE FOR YOUR BENEFIT!!!!!!!!!

ITS MY FUCKING HOUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

STAY AWAY FROM THE FUCKING DOOR I PAID FOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the SS is looking for 'a few good men'

:puke:

[trumad]

110. Oh..we're talking about your house... My apolgies.

I thought you were talking about the theme of this thread.... This errrr convuluted fucking thread! Thanks for calling me a Nazi Mat.... Real cool!

[matcom]

112. i asked if you would legislate ME at MY door

you indicated you would.

sorry, 'Brown Shirt' was the logical next step :eyes:

[trumad]

116. Like I said I misunderstood your post

and go way back on this board Matcom... Calling me a fucking SS Brownshirt was fucking horseshit!

[matcom]

117. your right

i am sorry. an will PM you

[rinsd]

113. Why?

"God...cna't you guy's go an hour without a Cig?"

Is my irritability showing again?

Truce: I won't blow smoke in your direction and you acknowledge I don't eat babies. ;-)

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[trumad]

107. An individual personal attack

now guess what...you're gonna get a little yellow warning from the mods asking you to read the rules... If it pisses you off so bad that I strongly oppose your suicide then I apologize!

[matcom]

108. heh. NO idea who you are responding to?

:D

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[trumad]

95. At least tried for what?

You're not going to get any harmony with a debate like this. Face it...smokers are in denial and think they don't bother anyone with their fumes. It's flat out denial in the fact that they know that they are wrong but to fucking addicted to admit it!

[matcom]

98. that is TOO fucking addicted

and i'll admit it freely thanks

[notadmblnd]

104. I just feel that our energies are wasted on matters of personal choice.

There are so many more important issues to fight for. I'm offended that people are so willing to let the government take control of every aspect of their lives. From enacting laws regulating what can be done in a bedroom between two consenting adults to enacting laws against smoking in bars/resturants. We have criminals in the whitehouse, corporations and wall street have looted our bank accounts. Factories still spew out their toxic fumes on neighborhoods everywhere. What is it with people?

[Pithlet]

125. No doubt

that all of the things you mentioned are valid concerns, and deserve our attention equally. But, this is a thread about smoking. I don't understand why it is such a big deal to at least acknowledge that smoking indoors creates a smoky, stinky atmosphere, rather than overreacting defensively and painting non smokers as pain in the ass busybodies, as some in this thread did. I don't think that people who smoke are quite aware of how bad it is for people who do not.

[sangh0]

200. More importantly, this issue shouldn't be about personal choice

because harming another person with the smoke that emanates from your "personal choice" is a public health issue, and not one of personal freedom.

[FeebMaster]

111. These conversations on smoking

are unhealthy for me. Whenever I read one or see a truth commercial on TV, I always get the urge to light up and enjoy a sweet, sweet cigarette.

[DavidMS]

119. Smoke isn't the problem

Lack of ventilation / air scrubbers are.

For instance I went to a Liz Pfair concert last weekend. Lots of people smoked there and I had to breath it. It got into my clothes (now HAZMAT untill laundered), skin and hair. Not fun. I go to bars, clubs and shows just often enough to be anoyed by all the smoking. As opposed to non-smoking sections all I ask for is good ventilation and nuculear submerine grade air scrubbers.

[arcos]

123. now, that's reasonable...

In fact I wouldn't mind paying extra in ticket entrances, or drinks in a bar, if that money is used to air scrubbers. Sort of like a tax, but not by the government.

[JohnLocke]

121. If you want to smoke, you should do it at home. Tobacco and grass.

[Vickers]

124. "Thank you in advance (hopefully) for not turning this into a..."

"...rabid anti-smoker/smoker flame fest."


lol

Yer a dreamer, bro.

[Scairp]

127. This is sooo typical

Smokers whining about their rights. You have no right to smoke. It's a choice. On the other hand, non-smokers DO have the right to relatively clean air in public places. You don't like the restrictions? Tough toenails. Quit smoking.

[Mari333]

128. and when you eat hormone infested meat and buy it from agribusiness farms

that flush pollutants into my well water, which I have to drink, you are polluting my life. When a woman or man wears cologne in a public area, I become nauseated and ill from it, as I am allergic to it.
So lets ban perfume and cologne and chemicals and agribusiness that pollutes the meat and water. Theres plenty of ways people pollute my property where I grow organic food, when my water source is polluted by car exhaust and agricultural runoff.
My neighbours spray their lawns with Orkin anc Chemlawn, that pollutes my ground water. They are then putting their crap into my system.
I own a wildlife preserve and am a vegetarian. Any non smokers out there do that? I also heat with wood and hang my clothes on the line. and I smoke.
But one reason I avoid people, is because some are blindsided and only see thru their myopic little world that they never do anything that affects anyone, but point one finger ( while3 are pointing straight back at them)
hey pluck it out of your own eye first people.
Judge not lest ye be judged accordingly.

[Pithlet]

130. Why

is complaining that second hand smoke is smelly and irritating such a bad thing? This isn't a thread about meat, or industrial pollution, or perfume. This is a thread about smoking indoors in public places. Like it or not, multiple smokers in a closed room fill the place with a stinky irritant. The remedy for this is for smokers to smoke outside, or smoke at home. I know that makes it rougher for the smokers. If they could make a smokeless cigarette that didn't stink up everything around it, then I guarantee you the bitching about smoking would stop.

[Mari333]

131. Just pointing out that many who cry foul

often have their own foul habits that affect me personally.
another reason I avoid the human race offline as much as possible.

[Pithlet]

132. This is a thread about smoking.

If this were a thread about foul habits, it would be different.

Most people have bad habits. Most people have a sense of smell, and functioning lungs. Some encounter second hand smoke, and are bothered by it, and would like to go to public places and not breath and smell like the stuff. Most places are smoke free, thankfully, so I don't think the issue is as big as it once was. But, those of us who complain about second hand smoke aren't all hypocritical jerks who don't care about industrial pollution. The two issues are separate.

[Mari333]

137. dont worry, my evil smoke will never infest your lungs

I live in the woods and never go near human beings, they get on my nerves. And all threads take on lives of their own anyway.
In the meantime, maybe a few non smokers can stop eating all that hormone infested meat and GM products that are ruining our biodiversity and polluting our rivers and streams?
thatd be nice.
oh. and the perfume in public places. please dont wear it. I cant bear it and it makes me choke. really.

[Pithlet]

140. There really is no need to be so defensive.

So cigarette smoking bothers me? It's not as if I chose it to be so. I can't help it if cigarette smoke makes me choke, and my eyes water. Believe me, I'd rather it didn't. And it certainly isn't a weakness, or flaw in my personality.

[sangh0]

202. WADR, the fact that cigarette smoke bothers is not legally significant

The fact that 2nd-hand smoke can harm your health is. That was scairp's point, and I was disappointed at seeing that point being obscured with talk about how smoke is unpleasant.

When people go out in public, they often have unpleasant experiences. The sights (ex litter, homeless people, ugly people) the sounds (ex cars, ambulances, maniacs giving speeches) and the smells (ex rotting garbage, feces, urine, etc) that are unpleasant are numerous. The laws are not meant to protect you from unpleasantness is public. However, the law is supposed to protect you from public health hazards.

[Pithlet]

209. To me, it is irrelevant.

If enough people felt that cigarette smoking was a nuisence to enact these bans, or elect people to office that would enforce these bans, then it is quite irrelevant as to whether or not it actually harms. To me, the fact that cigarette smoking causes my eyes to water, and my lungs to restrict, feeling like I'm breething through a straw, is enough for me to support such bans. It isn't just about my clothes and hair smelling.

No one can protect me from all unpleasant experiences, and I wouldn't expect anyone to. But, being able to go shopping, or work at the office, and eat at a family restaurant without being assailed by smoke that causes the reactions that I mentioned is easily prevented by prohibiting smoking indoors in public places that don't serve alcohol. I'm not trying to shield myself from all unpleasantries. I'm just trying to breathe.

[Scairp]

142. I was in Ireland last year

I am not accustom to cigarette smoke at all. No one in my family smokes and fortunately I live in California. The first pub I went into I thought I would die. I did make an effort to acclimate myself to the smoke, but after about an hour or so, I began to feel very nauseous and had to leave. How is that okay? I pay the same price you do for your food; should I be forced to breath noxious fumes along with it? If you want to kill yourself slowly with cigarettes, be my guest, but do it in your own home because you don't have the right to publicly expose me to it. You have the typical addict mentality.

[Mari333]

143. I was in Ireland and the Uk many times

ahh twas nice to sit on the sidewalk in Ireland and have a pint and a smoke and in the pubs too
alas, they have now changed. I know the Irish well tho, they wont put up with it, they are a rebellious lot and get angry at being told what to do.
Lovely people.
Much nicer people then americans.

[Pithlet]

146. Yes,

Those of us who are bothered by smoke are EVIL. I guess being in America has canceled out my Irish heritage. Maybe you're right. Enough smokers aren't courteous enough to step outside and smoke where they won't bother anyone that they have to be forced to do so. They have to smoke outside. Those evil Americans!

I don't understand what the problem is. Most places have banned smoking except for bars. I can understand being against the push to ban them there; I'm not for banning smoking in bars. But, even if that does happen, the smokers will just have to go outside. Big deal.

Being able to go to most public places now and not have to worry about smoking is a glorious thing. If thinking that makes me evil, then so be it.

[Mari333]

147. dont worry as I told another poster

I dont go near human beings when I smoke. I dont go to town cept to get the mail and come back, I go to the store once a week. I live in the woods, my grandmother smoked a corncob pipe til she was 96 yrs old, and she lived in the woods too. I leave the world alone, they leave me alone. Tis best. I think she lived in a better America tho.

[Pithlet]

149. Then you aren't

what I'm talking about. I have no problem with smokers. It's the smoke I have the problem with.

[Scairp]

150. The medical evidence speaks for itself

TUESDAY, March 30 (HealthDayNews) -- Some studies have suggested that women who smoke are more susceptible to lung cancer than their male counterparts, and now new mouse research may help explain why.

A Fox Chase Cancer Center researcher and her colleagues have identified a genetic alteration that occurred up to 13 times more frequently in the lung tissue of mice exposed to tobacco smoke than those in a control group. Even after just three weeks, the mice who breathed tobacco smoke had elevated levels of the enzyme CYP1B1, which activates estradiol, one of the body's natural estrogen hormones.

The discovery points to a possible link between changes in that hormone and lung cancer.

http://www.healthcentral.com/news/NewsFullText.cfm?id=518136

[Scairp]

148. I was dancing a jig over the ban

I will not have to put up with all that smoke the next time I go. And I know the Irish too lady. Better than you I'm sure. They will follow the law. You have no clue.

[Mari333]

157. heh well they fought the Brits and they are fighters

and one thing they told me was "we really like you and your husband, you dont boast and tell everyone you are an American and boast about your country and talk loud and behave like you have the best country on earth"
That from a pub owner who smoked in his pub in a small village.
They dont like being told what to do, especially by pompous americans.

[Scairp]

175. "Pompous" Americans

Aren't telling them anything. Their own government passed this law. They seriously want to improve the health of their people. It has jack to do with America.

[mdmc]

183. The Irish WILL obey this law

What else can they do - sit home and drink? mdmc -mc is for mic

[arcos]

133. the perfume analogy is great...

I will borrow it from now on. :hi:

[Pithlet]

139. Not the same.

Perfume is an irritant, for me as well, but I've never been in a room with multiple people wearing perfume that is as strong and pervasive as cigarette smoke. That's not to say that perfume isn't an issue. I once had a customer who's perfume was so bad that she kept asking me why I was crying. I had to give her to another salesperson. I believe that people should lay off the stuff, personally. But, this is a thread about smoking. And second hand cigarette smoke has affected me overall far worse than perfume. I've encountered smoke filled rooms far more often than perfumed ones.

[Cleita]

134. I'm an ex-smoker who thinks tobacco was created by the devil.

That aside, I am also an ex-restaurant and bar owner and I always felt a proprietor should be able to decide whether he wants smoking or non-smoking or segregation of both. There are limitations of course.

I don't think family restaurants, where children under eighteen are allowed, should allow smoking. Most retail stores banned smoking years before because smoke damages the merchandise. Also, should employees be subjected to second hand smoke?

I think an owner who wants to allow smoking in all or part of his establishment should be sensitive to this and not require unwilling employees to serve in those areas. Maybe the areas that allow smoking could be self service, like a cafeteria, where someone bellies up to the bar or buffet and takes it into the segregated area.

[mdmc]

135. Where will it end? WE NEED PROHIBITION!

I hate cigarettes and drinking, but I love to rip bingers. Once we outlaw alcohol, the Speakeasies come back! Next thing you know, America is once again WILDTOWN! I will finally start hanging out at bars again, proud to bring my bong.
Only when we have no rights and liberties will we be free.
:~)

[Scairp]

152. We put up with all kinds of restrictions

The federal government forces us to wear seat belts. I don't like seat belts, they dig into me and are uncomfortable for certain women who have large breasts. But I wear one anyway because it's the law and I know it reduces my risk of injury should I be in an accident. Most states and/or communities have open container laws. You can't just pop a cork wherever and whenever you please. This is only two examples of restrictions on our lives that in the long run the good accomplished outweighs our sense of intrusion. Why should smoking bans be viewed any differently? I will tell you. It's the addiction factor. How many times have we heard that quitting cigarettes is harder than kicking heroin? Smokers have an out of proportion reaction to these bans and it's because they are addicts, end of story.

[FeebMaster]

155. Instead of asking what other ways can

we restrict freedom, maybe we should ask why don't we remove some of the restrictions we now have? Maybe that's just the addiction talking. :eyes:

[Scairp]

156. And what am I addicted to?

We have rights but we are not free to engage in any kind of destructive behavior we want. That's just life. Are you saying people should be able drink and drive, not send their children to school, not pay taxes, that kind of thing? If so then you are living in a fantasy. :eyes: :eyes: Take that!

[FeebMaster]

158. Well you mentioned seat belts,

so I kind of thought we could start there.

[mdmc]

184. Headlines read: Seatbelt laws revoked ! more to die! Vie freedom!

Sheeple need da law.
But , bring back the speak easy. Then we can all party like it was 1999.

[NightTrain]

136. As a lifelong non-smoker who lost his dad to lung cancer...

...I nonetheless think it was incredibly stupid and short-sighted of our legislators to pass a law making it illegal to smoke in barrooms. After all, doesn't consuming alcohol increase a smoker's desire to smoke? That's what I've always been told. And isn't the point of visiting a bar to unwind, relax, and perhaps get a bit rowdy? Seems to me, a good smoke would be the perfect complement to such an experience!

Although I was glad when workplaces, restaurants, busses, elevators, et al, became smoke-free, outlawing it in barrooms just goes too far.

[sam sarrha]

151. It isn't because of non-smokers.. smoking is preventing universal insurance

the cost of smokers and alcohol related medical costs are preventing universal insurance for all citizens. Universal insurance could save BILLIONS in health care for us all... but the powers that be in the government wont subsidize the cost of habits of abuse.

Cigarettes will kill over 800 times those killed in Iraq, or 8 times the total killed in Viet Nam during the entire war... in ONE YEAR.

8 times the total Viet Nam war killed... in one year !!!

Where is the outrage !!! toward the industry and those that financially support it. ??

[Mari333]

153. Obesity is also a No 1 killer and I pay high insurance rates

so tell people not to eat so damn much I have to pay for them. But Im taxed for cigarettes and they arent taxed for fast food.
whats good for the goose is good for the gander.
In the meantime, try asking the Pentagon why all the monies go to an illegal war and the US does not provide health insurance instead to all its citizens.

[Scairp]

154. Uh, kind of a difference

People, you may have noticed through the smoky haze, require food. Smoking is not only NOT a life-giving necessity, it kills. And the excess food of those who overeat doesn't fly around the restaurant and bother others.

Edited to add: Heart disease is the Number One killer in America, and the majority is not caused by obesity.

[sam sarrha]

161. I have known several women who caught a flu like illness and very shortly

gained over 100 pounds... and can not lose any weight.

My wife used to weight 105 pounds.. it is heartbreaking to watch her count every calorie, weigh everything she eats, writes down everything... if she eats below a certain amount she gains weight.. as soon as she starts losing weight it stops.. it is very strange, she also used a tread mill alot.

but the subject is 8 times as many as ALL that died in Vietnam on our side, over a MILLION North Vietnamese died.

[Missy Vixen]

174. I've been waiting for this

>Obesity is also a No 1 killer and I pay high insurance rates so tell people not to eat so damn much I have to pay for them. But Im taxed for cigarettes and they arent taxed for fast food.
whats good for the goose is good for the gander.<

Maybe the fat should establish their own state. After all, the truth is that it's not the fat that is so problematic for the above poster and several others who always seem to chime in on these threads. Their objections and constant bashing have nothing to do with concern for our health.

The real facts are these: They don't like looking at us. They don't like talking to us. Above all, they certainly don't esteem us as even worthy of civil treatment as human beings.

We don't allow people to smoke in our home because it causes respiratory issues for me. We avoid businesses that allow smoking for the same reason. If people want to smoke, it's their business.

Julie

[JCMach1]

160. Republicans and Insurance companies have been blocking it

last time I checked.

over 50% of the people smoke here and we have Universal Health.

Not a valid argument really...

I am not a smoker, but I have to say once you live in a society that is closer to a 1950's U.S. smoking society, you quickly adjust.

I REALLY have no problem with smokers or smoking now.

In fact, pass the SHISHA.

[KTM]

166. Which is why, of course

smoking has been banned completely in all countries that have single-payer health care ,right ?

[not systems]

165. Fortunately in CA smokers are oppressed...

and I am free.

Free to go to a bar.

Free to see a band.

I love that smokers are pushed outside.

I hate traveling to the states that allow smoking in public buildings.

[Woodstock]

172. Montgomery County, Maryland has great laws

to protect people from breathing in toxic fumes from cigarettes

from what I've heard, California is also great in that respect, what you say confirms that

[Woodstock]

167. I couldn't open my own windows for a year at one apartment

because the guy who lived below me chain smoked on his balcony 24/7.

It came STRAIGHT into my apartment in about 10 seconds after he lit up. I had no warning as to when he'd do it, and by the time I smelled it, it was too late - the apartment was filled with the fumes. The smoke hurt my eyes and my throat. So I had to keep my windows & balcony door shut all the time.

Think about it - no fresh air. No spring days with a gentle breeze coming through. No birds singing. Just stale air that has nowhere to go. And air conditioning that's on 24/7 for the better part of the year, and the accompanying bills to go with it.

What did I do to deserve this? I just lived. Nothing I did imposed upon him. I didn't play loud music or clomp on the floors. I was a good neighbor. But he imposed on the very air I breathed. Every morning, noon, and night I was there, he was in control of THE AIR.

If you smoke, it should only be when you can contain it and guarantee I don't have to breathe it. Go to town if that's the case.

If not, you are infringing on my right to breathe, which trumps your right to suck on cancer sticks emitting toxic fumes.

There are laws about factories emitting toxic fumes. This is no different. It makes me sick. It makes my friend who has asthma even sicker. And it kills. I've seen it kill. I saw a friend die a slow agonizing death from lung cancer - she was just 40 - and left behind a broken man of a husband and kids who lost their way badly without their mother.

[Scairp]

176. Smokers don't care

They really don't. In their addicted minds, their right to suck up a carcinogen and blow it back out again trumps our right to be free of this crap. The only thing that can stop them from trying to kill the rest of us along with themselves is the law.

[mdmc]

185. well, that used to be the case

When I was born in 1971, my mom smoked.
Imagine a pregnant women smoking indoors now. LOL!

[matcom]

191. nice generalization

you win the most rediculous post of the year award

[rinsd]

207. Most smokers are wimps....

Now me, I'm evil.

I walk outside and light and make it a point to survey those making nasty looks or starting to do an exagerrated cough. I intentionally blow smoke towards those who make faces. I then walk over to their table as I am finishing my smoke. I ask if they are done with their water and regardless of response I drop the butt into their glass. If they get angry, I turn, moon them and then light up another cigarette.

I finish my night off with some baby seal clubbing and maybe a baby sandwich

[PapaClay]

190. An idea

Here in my town, many restaurants are going smoke-free voluntarily. That's cool with me. I can abstain for an hour. And I am one of them courteous smokers. Evil, but courteous.

So one city councilman decided to give the free market a little push by introducing a proposed ordinance to ban smoking in all public indoor places, including bars. One proprietor told me, "No problem, I'll just revert back to a private club."

Back when this town was dry, the only place you could get liquor by the drink, was in a private club. You paid a membership fee, got a membership card and, once a member, could enter the establishment and have one drink or ten. It was public knowledge and those who disapproved of drinking or didn't want to drink or be around drinkers were free to not join these private clubs. They were not public establishments and entry was by membership only.

I think it's a reasonable approach; public non-smoking establishments for the public, and private clubs for us pariahs.

Of course some folks will be distressed at the thought of any accomodation for smokers, whether it affects them personally or not, but that's to be expected.

:smoke:

I'm surprised this smilie hasn't been banned

[seabeyond]

194. we know ugliness doesnt heal

and we know when we are being ugly. so when we chose to practice beating soemone up, for whatever reason, maybe it is time to reflect

if there is an agenda, extreme, then it is our issue and not the one being attacked


we talk about the blinders to all bush lies, well why it becomes easy to understand these are simply human behaviors and we all participate somewhere in life. the anti smoker, i ask, are you feeling in mob, are you feeling in power, and on reflection are you abusing this power

how many have put thought that many of the things said of smoking doesnt jive with reality. how many have just accepted what the medical field says cause of agenda. and how wise is that to ignore the agenda of a group that is supplying the information

someone mentioned on another thread the fascism of both parties, is anyone feeling a little fascist here, ? just in thought

[sangh0]

204. Good questions. I have another

Do you think that your assumption that everyone who is criticizing the smokers are all non-smokers is another sign of what you call "the fascism of both parties"??

[John_H]

195. You can have my line when a fellow bar customer askes me to "put it out"

This is a bar, not a pulmonology clinic.

[adriennel]

201. I rarely smoke inside

I do not smoke in my house and while I do occasionally miss smoking at a restaurant/bar/coffee house, I really don't like smoking inside. When traveling I usually request a non-smoking room so it doesn't stink. So even a smoker can be faced with too much smoke! Smoking on airplanes is the worst of all.
I smoke a lot in my car when driving (my car is kinda junky anyway)and I'm a lone rider. I also smoke on my front and back porches. Luckily no one lives above or below me. I do believe this is less obnoxious than when my neighbor fiddles with his lawnmower right under my bedroom window.

[WHAT]

206. It's the "public" part of smoking...

that becomes contentious.

I've followed the arguments of smokers and non-smokers as far as thier rights go and I think that as long as they are not adversly effecting the well-being of the other they're fine. Why can't there be smoking bars where non-smokers choose not to go...and, anyone who smokes doesn't have the right to exhale around other people who are effected by it?

I have more of a problem with NOISE. It reminds me of smoking in that it effects other people in the vicinity...in a public way. I live in a rural area and recently people have cleared about an acre of land adjacent to a county road and proceeded to create a dirt bike track. Now, groups show-up in nice trucks with costumed children, park half way on the shoulder/road (shoulder of road is only about 2 or 3 feet), then they proceed to NOISE pollute. I live diagonally about a mile away from this site and the incessant, high-pitched whining of the dirt bikes and ATVs gives me a headache and sets me on edge. This activity has a public effect (at least on me). This also reminds me of smoking in that the right to create noise is assumed just as earlier smokers thought they were free to smoke anywhere...it was accepted.

I could be a wet-blanket or they could be bullies but the salient point, to me, is when private activities have public consequences...then it becomes a public issue and the rights of all people involved needs to be considered. Action on smoking may have been initiated on a cost/benefit analysis but because it is legal and addictive I think it would be impossable to regulate when it does not involve the public sector (also, the addiction might make it a need analagous to Victorian culture trying to control sex...that didn't work, either, but there may have been some perks associated with meeting needs not acknowledged publically).

Anyway, bottom line, people need to be considerate of each other. And, oh yeah, the manufacture and ownership/use of dirt bikes oughta be outlawed.!