I'm so sad, I feel sick. Just read another Yahoo post about the

[lindashaw]

atrocities of the four civilians. How I wish that Bush possessed the compassion to link this horror with his arrogant challenge to "Bring 'em on." What a Pandora's Box he has opened. I don't think it can ever be closed--not ever. What a waste!

[jean]

1. not just bring em on - how about his crass jokes about wmd?

[Bandit]

6. But but he ~ "Hit the Trifecta"

Dream of burning bodies Bush*. What a foul odor there is coming from our People's House.

[ramapo]

2. Just wait until...

you read how Bush uses this to justify continued military action.

[Cocoa]

3. it's not Bush's fault

according to Zell Miller, it's the Sept. 11 Commission's fault. The mob was encouraged by Clarke's testimony.

[Skittles]

59. OK COCOA

you ARE kidding, right? You MUST be kidding. PLEASE?

[redqueen]

61. You have to ask?!

lol, tensions are high!

I'm willing to bet my last cent that Cocoa is kidding. :)

[Cocoa]

62. you'd be right

rule of thumb: if I'm quoting Zell Miller approvingly, I'm kidding. :-)

[Jacobin]

4. Why is this an "atrocity"

Is it only atrocious to blow up people and burn them up close?

Why isn't the carnage of human flesh carried out with cruise missiles and bombs "atrocious"

I don't understand the distinction some are drawing here. I really don't.

[redqueen]

7. I can explain it in three words

us and them

[lindashaw]

10. You're right, of course. I consider what we did to the Japanese

horrific atrocities. And other things we've done.

[Catfight]

5. and Bush senior is crying over name calling?

OUT OF TOUCH! the whole lot of them...completely OUT OF TOUCH!

[Sandpiper]

11. Remember what Poppy Bush said

Our soldiers are over their "sowing the seeds of basic human freedom."

So far, we've "freed" 25,000 - 50,000 of them from life itself.

[xultar]

8. I saw some footage over on Yahoo and man...bush needs to apologize

to the families for his lies.
to the us
and the WORLD
for what he has done

they will portray the Iraqis as animals. What Bush doesn't realize is that he is the reason we are in this mess. He is why they are over there for no reason.

Bush you are killing our troops don't you see that!

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redqueen]

18. Is this coming from you?

You're not relating thoughts from thoughtless Yahoo posters, are you?

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ripley]

25. Yer right...how foolish of you to think that.

Kind of like the pipedream that our "war on drugs" has decreased the number of humans on earth who do drugs.

[redqueen]

29. Excellent point, Ripley

Another example of a policy which results in a completely different outcome than the one sought.

:thumbsup:

[redqueen]

28. Strawman much?

Your first post was titled "Yahoo post", and since this thread is about a post the originator saw on Yahoo, my assumption was that you were communicating what was said there by some poster. Mea culpa.

As for enlightenment, the kind of mentality that would advocate the murder of who knows how many innocent people is not even close to being right with God. Those people desperately need Jesus' wisdom to illuminate their hearts and minds so that the process of healing can begin on this planet.

[kaiser1]

36. strawman

I agree but you have to realize that you can not hold a dialog with people that can not make concessions.These people want us to convert or die plain and simple.If we do not fight back with force we can never have the type of society you wish.

[redqueen]

38. True, the extremists do have that goal

However there were no extremists in Iraq before bush's illegal invasion. Now he has given them the most helpful recruiting tool they could ever have hoped for.

Also, consider that many in Iraq who were previously NOT extremists are now possibly considering BECOMING extremists, solely because they have been brutalized for no apparent reason (WMD's?).

So yes, we cannot make concessions for extremists, however most Iraqis are not extremists, and the only concession they ask is that we cease the occupation of their country. I agree with them. I think we should internationalize the occupation and get our soldiers home ASAP. I don't want one more mother's child offered up as a sacrifice for the profits of Halliburton, Bechtel, etc.

[kaiser1]

41. 4 points

1 their were extremists in Iraq what do you think they were doing with a hollowed out 747 training Iraqi sturdiest.
2 you may be right and we are making more of extremists its unavoidable but i think they will see the light as conditions improve.
3 their was more to the war than WMD is it just what your party has chosen to harp on
4 Crying Halliburton is a joke Haliburton was used by Bill Clinton and other administrations well before Iraq you no its BS as well as I do. Its another example of your party hoping Americans don't think.

[Ripley]

44. HAHAHAH. You're deluded.

The Democratic party has chosen to harp on WMD's? I guess you live in a cave without TV, radio and newspapers for the last year and a half when WMD's were the only thing Herr Bush talked about.

You're cooked.

[redqueen]

48. Extremists are not all alike

I agree that Iraq's military was not stitting around making baskets. Surely they were up to whatever training in order to achieve whatever goals Saddam might have had set for them. However, the extremists which are the bane of the world right now (Muslim extremists) were not there so that is what I was referring to. Iraq was no threat to the countries having problems with Muslim extremsits. To deal with the source of that problem, we'd have had to have bombed Saudi Arabia, no?

I agree that as conditions improve in Iraq, that the people would return to their normal lives, but do you not see what we've done by opening Iraq's borders to Muslim extremists? Their SOP is to find a conflict and exploit the underdog in the conflict to achieve their own goals. So now, instead of dealing with just Iraqis, we're dealing with Iraqis who have been exposed to radicalizing propoganda. It's working, too, from all reports.

I don't know what bush's goals were with this war. Kerry approved the IWR to force Saddam to allow UN inspectors in. Bush chose to invade... why? He claimed at first it was because they were a threat to our safety due to their posession of WMD's... at least that's what he claimed in the SOU speech and other bush admin officials claimed in their many appearances. The goals have shifted as bush has changed his message to suit reality, though. Pick one and we can discuss it.

As for the Military Industrial Complex (Halliburton, Bechtel, etc.), this is not BS. This is something that has existed for long before Clinton and I cannot argue that Clinton did further the goals of the MIC, just as every other president has. Eisenhower tried to warn us -- too bad we're still not listening.

[KurtNilsen]

66. Do you follow the news at all?

The entire government of Iraq was extremist. Only 15 percent of Iraqis want the coalitition to leave immediately.

I saw a report by Walter Rodgers the other day which was interesting, and not very encouraging. He seemed to detect a shift among Iraqis in Bagdad where many people seemed to start hedging their bets. Many people had the last month or so started to talk up Saddam. It's because people like you, zappatero et al. that they are starting to fear again. Leaving Iraq immediately would be a disaster. Kerry knows this, thank goodness. The Australian people knows this. The Norwegian government knows this. Regarldless of what you thought about the war, the coalition NOW has a RESPONSIBILITY to the Iraqis to make this successful.

If the US abandoned the Iraqi people now, it would be a catastrophe for the entire globe.

[redqueen]

68. See post #48

Not all extremists are alike.

As far as percentages of Iraqis who support whatever, I'm curious as to the methodology used to gather the data. Have a cite?

It's amusing that you credit a couple of posters on this board as a reason for anything the Iraqis do. Approaching the bizarre, actually. Do you have any evidence whatsoever to back up your assertion that the people here who want their soldiers home are the reason that Iraqis are starting to 'fear' again? IMO this is ludicrous in the extreme.

I don't know what you're talking about (i.e. 'abandoning')... maybe you should re-read? Perhaps address what I actually posted?

[KurtNilsen]

72. I appologize that I jumped on you a bit infairly.

I just needed to rant a little bit. I was refering to the this study conducted by the BBC, which I belive is widely acknowledged to be the most thorough Survey in Iraq so far. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3514504.stm

What I was trying to say is that this action today is most likely a psy-ops events means for scearing public opinion in the coalition countries and first and foremost the public opinion in the US. I have to say that I am so encouraged by John Kerry (I was an Edwards supporter) that he has gone on the record and saying that the job in Iraq will be completed. If you think the war was a crime, that's ok. But, don't make another crime by leaving the Iraqies to stew in the mess that is there at the moment.

I think that the "bad guys" will be encouraged if this psy-ops works and public opinion turns towards leaving Iraq. Likewise, the "good guys" will become more intimidated.

As for abandoning. Well if you think the world is going to send in hundreds of thousand of troops to replace the American presence, then I think that you are dreaming. I america started this mess, and whether you like it or not, American bears the main burden of having to finish it.

I read a story in a Norwegian paper yesterday about the Norwegian troops in Southern Iraq. The troops could not even contemplate leaving. One soldier said that it brought tears to his eyes to see how they had rescued the livelihoods of over 15 thousand of the marsh arabs by irrigating water for them to farm on. He said he could not even think the thought of having go the farmers and say that he had to abandon them.

The Falluja incident was horrible. That was the entire point of the ones who commited it. This was atrocities made for TV. Psy-ops as proffesionally conducted as Pentagon does it. Please, please, we must not fall for it.

That said, Redqueen, after reading more of your posts I think you are reasonable, and I appologize again for jumping out at you. Thank goodness I edited my post before posting :-)

[redqueen]

80. No prob, tensions are so high right now.

I see your point about the psy-ops angle, and understand about ensuring that Iraq is safely transitioned from the occupation to a free country. I understand that the burden fairly falls mainly on us, I do. It's just that I also see the hostility directed at US forces, and understand the reason for that as well, so it seems we're in a bit of a Catch-22.

If Kerry can take charge, and ensure that incidents such as the firing into a crowd of demonstrators does not happen again, maybe we can gain their confidence. We can hope.

Thanks for the apologies, appreciated but not necessary. No hard feelings. :)

[SemperEadem]

71. so do we

The very same argument applies to the US government, too.

The fact that christian fundamentalist missionaries are being allowed in by US troops to convert Iraqis to Christianity tells me that this country's foreign policy/military machine has as much of an intolerant attitude towards Islam as they do toward 'western christian infidels'.

Muslims aren't in America trying to convert or disassemble our society---we're over there on their turf trying to convert and disassemble theirs. A big, glaring difference.

While there may have been cells of resistance in Iraq before we illegally went in, it wasn't as huge of a multi-headed hydra as it is now. And on top of that, Bush is now joking about the absence of WMD, which he knew all along weren't there, but they needed a ruse to get to the oil wells.

[Rex]

40. Hey at least you're not shouting.

You break the caplock key? :eyes:

Maybe you should just scuttle back into whatever AOL chatroom you crawled out of.

[Auntie Bush]

63. Some people

have been in their dark spider holes (where they can't see the truth) for too long. They need to get out in this bright light where we can see and know what's going on in the real world.

[Ripley]

20. Was Tim McVeigh an Iranian?

How about those KKK lynch mobs? Were they Syrian's infiltrating the USA back in the day?

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bobbieinok]

46. I think the KKK is still around

[Ysabel]

64. are you inciting murder...?

i think that you are...

[SemperEadem]

73. what planet are you from

the KKK isn't gone by any stretch of the imagination.

[kaiser1]

27. Tim

Oh i forgot about the Tim rebuttal he was a sick man and there aren't nearly as Manny people like him as their are Muslim extremists .But i bet you didn't want him to get the death penalty

[redqueen]

30. You're right that Muslim extremists are a danger to the world

Every nation has to fear the encroachment of this virus which exploits ANY conflict ANYWHERE to achieve it's own goals.

No disagreement there!

[Tempest]

47. The world has as much to fear from Christian extremism

Christian history is not without it's extreme violence.

[redqueen]

49. Yes Christian extremists have been there as well

Notably during the crusades.

However, to not recognize that the Muslim variety is now fostering violence and conflict all over the world for no other reason than to achieve it's own goals is to ignore reality. Very dangerous.

[Ripley]

34. Oh yeah, that liberal stereotype.

I'm glad he got the death penalty and it was carried out relatively soon. Your sad little stereotypes are failing to impress most Americans these days. Thank Gawd.

[revcarol]

26. Oklahoma City?

'nuf said.

think your stay here will be short.

[Mari333]

42. No Bush just created new terrorists ny attacking Iraq for no reason

and lying about it..and my kid is in Baghdad right now and could die any minute and be dragged thru the streets as a corpse..
George Bush killed every soldier and civilian in Iraq with his fake war
and until you have a kid standing there shut the fuck up.
You dont. so shut the fuck up. You would do your homework about Bush if you did have a kid over there and the only terrorist we have in the world right now thats creating more terrorism is
BUSH ADMIN
so yell at them..they are who are killing our kids
Now go away.

[TahitiNut]

55. "no terrorists come from free countries"? Yes, and Tim McVeigh proves it.

:shrug:

[SoCalDem]

56. um... wasn't there a "blond guy" who had some "issues" in Oklahoma??

Gee.. I always thought he was a "Murkin" :shrug:

[mdmc]

69. The KKK is a terrorist org, localted here in the free USA

right?

[Donkeyboy75]

82. Hey doofus,

Richard Reed (the shoe bomber) was a Brit. Are you telling me the United Kingdom isn't a free society? Or are you telling me that the suicide bombing of a jet isn't terrorism? Which is it?

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redqueen]

16. Welcome to DU, kaiser1

:hi:

Thanks for a glimpse into the mind of our opposition.

Killing people is a good way to teach them? I'll never understand some republicans. Never. Thank God. I will, however, continue to pray for their enlightenment. :)

[Jacobin]

19. Must you shout?

Once you have killed all 24 million Iraqis, who do you propose to populate their former country?

Just curious.

[SemperEadem]

77. I saw a news report recently that said Israelies are buying up land

in Iraq to start colonizing it.

[redqueen]

81. That's a hell of a thing

Do you have a link? Remember where you heard this?

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redqueen]

37. Not just liberals

Many people use this reaction to avoid a thoughtful debate.

[Auntie Bush]

70. Sounds like someone is quoting from the beautiful

feminine all knowing Ann the Man Cultier.(sp?) But who the hell cares!

[Oilwellian]

74. Haven't you heard?

O'Franken has Coulter locked in the green room with the heat turned up.

[redqueen]

35. "Where widom is folly, ignorance is bliss"

I'm not sure it makes life any easier. If anything, I think it compounds the frustration one feels in dealing with the many problems facing people today. Life is very complicated, and viewing it in simple terms I think is like living in denial. Mostly comfortable, but when that curtain is pulled back - very deeply painful.

[Sandpiper]

31. Have the courage to back your convictions

Enlist immediately so you can go kick some tairist' ass:

www.goarmy.com

www.navy.com

www.marines.com

www.airforce.com


Your local recruiter is waiting to talk to you.

[redqueen]

39. Excellent suggestion!

Anyone who supports this occupation should enlist today!

[Catfight]

52. BRAVO!

[Auntie Bush]

75. I think one of

our members took your advice and joined the service.
Don't see hide nor hair of him any more...maybe bumped!

[Catherine Vincent]

33. This board is for Democrats....

not yelling, ignorant morans.

[Tempest]

45. Your screen name is interesting, considering

Kai·ser ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kzr)
n.

Any of the emperors of the Holy Roman Empire (962-1806), of Austria (1806-1918), or of Germany (1871-1918).

[TahitiNut]

54. Well, well. A kaiser _roll, huh?

I guess the "t" is silent, huh? :eyes:

[hexola]

57. How did Saddam do it?

He knew how to deal with these folks...

[i_c_a_White_Ghost]

12. Bush can't be bothered with that

he's in with cheney and rice rehearsing for the commission.

[Auntie Bush]

13. Bush should be made to sit down and look at every horrific

picture of everyone..including Iraqies...killed and maimed in the war.
Never mind...that wouldn't help...he doesn't care! He and all his friends are getting rich and that's what's important
The end justifies the means!

[ugarte]

17. Do you really think he has the capacity to feel anything like sorrow?

That may sound harsh, but I really wonder.

[redqueen]

21. I think he does

but not for victims of his unnecessary, illegal war. Only for himself, or his loved ones. It's a trait I find very common in those that subscribe to the 'us and them' mentality. (e.g. 'So what if your kids have a crappy school! My tax money pays for my kids' school and I want it to stay that way! IGMFU!')

[Malva Zebrina]

15. I have no idea who these civilians worked for, but I say, cynically

if they are CEO's or in the upper echelons of the corporate hierarchy, no doubt Bush will meet their flag draped coffins at the airport, attend the funerals, and say a few words of comfort and shed a few real tears with the families of the "brave" corporate keepers of the spoils.

<sarcasm>

[lindashaw]

51. Isn't the word out now that they were mercenaries? Someone said

dog tags were displayed. But I didn't see any picture of that.

[Mari333]

43. PLEASE call your senators and congresspeople and scream GET THE TROOPS HOM

BRING THE TROOPS HOME NOW

[redqueen]

50. 1-877-762-8762 n/t

[Auntie Bush]

53. I'll give it a try Mari333

BRING THE TROOPS HOME NOW!

[Lefergus70]

58. Is this a war on terrorism or a war to create more terrorism?

The daily news answer that question: the invasion and occupation of Iraq have created a hotbed of terorrism where Americans can be killed almost every day.

So, generating more terrorism is actually a "war on terrorism". People who see the logic in that are...well, totally irrational.

I noticed that a contributor above implied that it is better for terrorists to be killing over there than over here. I've heard that before from people on the right, and it is just as mind-boggling.

[redqueen]

60. Just the MIC ensuring its survival...

nothing more needs to be said, really. Except maybe to point out that it wouldn't be possible if not for the lack of a truly free media.

[KurtNilsen]

78. You are wrong.

It is not so clear cut as you portray it. I must admit that I grudingly did end up supporting the war. However, I agreed to the conclusions that winning the peace is the key objective.

That people would resist the action was entirely to be expected. As well as terrorist actions abroad in reponse. However, you must differentiate between long and short term. I agree with Friedman that the Iraqi project is for the long term.

In my mind the Iraq project is part of attacking the roor causes of terror. It should have been started ages ago, but better late than never. It is immoral of the rich western world to let the rest of the globe stew in poverty and repression and squalor.

The Iraqi conflict is not for eliminating terror today. It is to create a better world for out children and grandchildren.

Will it work? It pretty much has to. The insurgents are sure trying everything for it to fail. We have no choice, but to make it work.

The status quo certainly was not acceptable.

[theHandpuppet]

65. I felt sick and also ashamed...

... to have been reminded that Fallujah is also the town where, in 1991, American forces "accidentally" bombed the city's marketplace and killed some 100 civilians.

More recently, it was also the town where American forces fired upon protestors. Later, American forces shot and killed an Iraqi journalist there.

Should we really wonder where their rage comes from? Where was ours when their children were murdered in the streets?

If the American public displayed even half the rage at the death of these Iraqi civilians -- including women and children -- as they do at the mutilation of four bodies (and please, I mean no disrespect to the murdered dead) then perhaps we wouldn't be in the position we find ourselves now.

The killing on both sides is a continuing tragedy that didn't need to be. That's the ultimate outrage here.

[KurtNilsen]

67. Yeah right.....If Bush hadn't said bring it on it would not have

happened. Good thinking there.

[Bridget Burke]

76. If Bush hadn't started this illegal war,

It definitely wouldn't have happened.

"Bring it on" & "Mission accomplished" are just further phrases for you to cherish--words of wisdom from your little hero.

[KurtNilsen]

83. Please don't attribute to me words or ideas that I have not

even been close to infer. I supported the Iraq action, but Bush has done much to botch it up..

But, I can guarantee you that this has to be finished up the right way. I hope that real progress can be made when Kerry takes over. Europe can then be brought on board for real, whilst it will also be easier among many arab nations and elsewhere. I frequently talk to many Pakistanis and they all hope that Kerry will take over. The funny thing is that even though he does pretty much the same in Iraq they would not hate it as much. Bush and his administration, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz in particular, and managed to piss of pretty much the entire world.

The whole world not his holding its collective breath waiting for Americans to get rid of Bush.

[SemperEadem]

79. If Bush hadn't have gotten away with stealing the 2000 election

we certainly wouldn't be where we are now.

[KurtNilsen]

84. In all probability not.