Kerry Is Still Going To Win The Nomination (like it or not Dean folks)

[THUNDER HANDS]

Why?

Because he's just laying low, not making much noise, and he's still right there with Dean at the front of the pack.

Look how much bluster Dean has to manage just to get to Kerry's level. Imagine what will happen once Kerry starts rolling and people really start taking notice of him.

He'll blow Dean away like a gorilla swatting a fly.

That said, I LOVE Howard Dean.

I love everything he says. I like the way he says it. And I've donated money to his campaing and would seriously like to see him win the nomination.

....but....

Kerry can do everything Dean can do, but do it in a stately manner. And there's more to Kerry's resume than there is to Dean's. And more to the point, I want someone who can look Bush in the eye and say that he fought in a war and the chimp didn't.

Dean can't do that. Dean skiied in Vermont while Americans died in Vietnam. That's no better than Bush skirting the National Guard, because lets face it, if your father worked for the CIA, wouldn't YOU have wanted him to pull a few strings and get you out?

Kerry is meat and potatos. Dean is ice cream.

Dean says everything that makes me feel good. So does Kerry, and Kerry has gravitas, something Dean definately doesn't have.

I love them both. But Kerry is going to win, like it or not Dean supporters.

on edit - I took out the offending "Deaniebopper" reference because I don't want to anger Dean fans. Of which I am one.

[Walt Starr]

1. We'll see

I do not believe Kerry is electable. I see Dean as the only chance we have to get rid of Dumbass*. Anybody else will lay down and lose.

Like it or not, that's what's going to happen.

[THUNDER HANDS]

7. why?

Why, for instance, would a decorated war veteran with 20+ years experience in government be any less electable than a guy who skipped out on the war, went skiing and then spent 11 years as governor of the second smallest state in the union?

Both are from New England. Both are moderate-liberals. Both speak well and with conviction.

One, however, sucks during interviews and on tv.

The other comes across like what a president should look like.

Maybe Dean is the new Al Smith. But I think Kerry is the new JFK.

[wryter2000]

16. Minor correction

Dean did not skip out on Vietnam. He was classified 1Y and said that if he had been drafted he would have served. He did nothing to try to avoid serving.

[liberalnurse]

21. The man is not without a Viet Nam sacrifice.

His brother died in Nam. He does not come from a family that looked for the softer, easier way......

The draft examines you at age 18. What 18 year old can say, "Oh don't flunk me, please..." It would not of made a difference. He flunked..

So he bcame a physican....and served mankind in another way.

[THUNDER HANDS]

29. that's fine

I don't fault him for that.

I'm just saying, in this age, I'd rather run a vet against Bush than someone who went skiing after getting a medical deferrment.

Just me.

[CWebster]

58. Can't exactly use the deceptions to sell the war, can he?

And has kept mighty mum on all that transpired over the past 2and a half years.

First he uses his military experience to advocate for peace, but when he senses the pendulum swing he flexes his macho muscle. Do you think the young soldiers in Iraq, who want to come home but are trapped over there in a dangerous place with an unreceptive population who picks them off daily, when they are not getting sick from some unknown diseases, would be impressed?

[stopbush]

73. You're probably correct

in saying that a veteran has better chance of beating bush than a non-vet.

Just another example of how far this country has fallen - especially if our current crop of military types (Powell, lying-his-ass-off-Franks, shoot-civilians-first-ask-questions-later grunts) are an indication of the type of "character" military service builds.

[Malikshah]

76. That's a cop-out

Shame on you!
It's too late to try and change your argument. You accused Dean of pulling a Chimp regarding Vietnam. It's been crystal clear to anyone who does an even cursory search on the Dem candidates that Dean did no such thing.

If you want to start slamming democratic candidates (which, BTW, hurts the overall cause) at least do a modicum of research first.

I'm not letting you off the hook simply because what you pulled was no better than what the media has done to this country. Baseless attacks.

Doesn't matter if you "love Dean" or not-- it's the priniciple.

To others-- sorry for the diatribe--but damnit--we're no better than freepers if this shit is allowed to continue .

In the end-- have a great one. :-)

[THUNDER HANDS]

80. it's not personal

it's politics.

Dean getting a medical deferrment isn't bad, in and of itself.

The fact that he went skiing is.

It just LOOKS bad.

That's the point.

[deutsey]

83. Well, if this becomes an issue for Dean

there's a real danger for Bush that his less than stellar military past will come back to haunt him.

[Malikshah]

89. Politics is personal

You wrote: Dean can't do that. Dean skiied in Vermont while Americans died in Vietnam. That's no better than Bush skirting the National Guard, because lets face it, if your father worked for the CIA, wouldn't YOU have wanted him to pull a few strings and get you out?

This could come straight from the DLC, the DNC, the Freeper crowd etc.

Politics is extremely personal-- we're dealing with humans here.

Anyone who says otherwise needs to remove themself from the analytical void of political discourse and join reality.

It's the same when folks say:

It's not personal--it's just business.
Really saying: Just screwed you over on the deal and will now be making more money than you.

It's not you--it's me (when breaking up)
Really saying: It's you.

If we are going to get anywhere in this campaign--we have to move beyond analytical voids and the mental masturbation of "it's just politics"

That being said.

My attack in the post is not personal in that I think you are a bad human being.

It is personal in that I think you exhibited poor judgement in your statement and that it needed to be addressed.

There is a difference there.

In any case-- have fun and keep up the good work.:D

[dave29]

120. The fact is: Dean got a deferment, Kerry served and protested

What did shrub do? Do we know where he was when he went AWOL from his cushy military assignment?

The issue is not a winner for shrub whoever the nominee is. Shrub cannot attack Dean OR Kerry on military service.

[MODemocrat]

139. Shrub's backers will find a way to attack Dean and Kerry

He'll just put his make believe military uniform on and stuff his crotch with an extra large sock, and make people "fall in love" with him all over again.

[TLM]

168. How does it look bad?

What looks bad is when idiots try to present it as draft dodging when the fact is that Dean went to his draft induction and he was rejected for failing his draft induction physical.

Failing the draft physical doesn't mean you're a fucking cripple who can never do anything again... it means that they see you as too high a risk for injury to bother training you and putting you in a situation where your physical problem might mess up a mission or get somebody killed.

And on what planet is a weekend ski trip the same level of physical stress as combat or boot camp?

[THUNDER HANDS]

170. I'm pretty sure it wasn't a weekend ski trip

I think he spent something like the entire winter skiing.

But like I said, I don't personally care.

But some people might. And the point is it might negate whatever argument a challenger to Bush might have on personal military experience.

Something Kerry has, in spades.

[mandyky]

109. Actually his brother died in Laos

But I agree Dean has served his coontry and humanity in his own way.
Unlike Dumbya.

[nolabels]

153. Just one more shameful chapter of the imperial scams in SE Asia

What scoundrel politician brags about the accomplishments of that part of US history? The French went in there and lost their ass, and the US quick to follow after them. So what makes that much different than Iraq. I know the history hasn't been (re)written yet. Okay, we will be watching

Btw does anybody think Tricky Dick should rest in peace knowing he didn’t incinerate many more people with :nuke: ‘s and only used Napalm, Agent Orange and assorted other variety of sundry devices to raise havoc with that population over there?

[blm]

166. What was he doing in Laos?

Most civilians there were working for Poppy Bush and the CIA. Why vacation in Laos during a war?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

176. Probably working for the CIA.

Dean's parents both believed that to be the case.

Just as Kerry joined the Armed Forces in order to serve his country and got caught up in a cluster fuck, so too for poor Charlie Dean.

[Walt Starr]

52. Kerry voted in favor of the war

HE would lose badly to Bush because he has done Bush's bidding.

[poskonig]

56. Dean has been outstanding on television lately.

On King, Today, etc.

Kerry has an awesome record, but seems like he doesn't want the job.

[StClone]

77. Kerry Really

Has a great track record of service and sacrifice for his country. He would deserve it on that alone but people vote for an inspirational and motivational candidate and Dean may have that edge.

[sujan]

81. whats so great about fighting in vietnam?

It was an illegal invasion like this one only with lot more casualties. Nothing to be proud of. Seems like kerry is always proud of his participation on the illegal wars. If I recall correctly he was against the first gulf war.

[CMT]

2. you may be right

or you may be wrong.

p.s.
I like the way Dean can look Bush in the eye and say, "Your war was wrong." Kerry having supported it will have a hard time doing that.

[THUNDER HANDS]

13. ever hear the term

being misled?

Bush misled Kerry, who needs no advice on patriotism or the courage to speak out against a war.

[CMT]

20. misled?

how come Dean wasn't misled--or Graham or Kucinich who also were privy to the same info as Kerry?

[sangha]

98. Dean was misled also

and if he wasn't, he never said that Bush* was lying. He still hasn't said that. Dean said he was against the invasion because he didn't think the evidence Bush* produced justified an invasion and *NOT* because he thought Bush* was misleading people.

If it was a mistake to believe Bush*, than either Dean made the same mistake, or he realized Bush was lying and kept his mouth shut about it.

[Eloriel]

150. He said it this morning on the Today show

And he has repeatedly used the words "mislead us into war," which is a softer way of saying "lied us into war."

Kerry did the politically expedient thing, along with every other person in Congress who voted for that damn war. And anyone who doesn't see that is in denial.

Eloriel

[dansolo]

147. *WE* weren't misled

Don't you really have to ask the question that if we could figure out that Bush was full of shit, wouldn't you want a presidential candidate who could figure that out as well?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

22. Misled? By Bush?

Well, there were 23 senators smart enough not to be misled by the fratboy emperor. Why would we want to vote for one who was too stupid not to see the obvious?

[THUNDER HANDS]

32. riddle me this batman

How many of the senators who voted against the war served in the military?

I'm not asking this to be flippant, I'm just actually curious.

[charlie]

44. Bob Graham

is a vet.

[GreenArrow]

48. Ted Kennedy

is another.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

133. Is Not

Sorry

[charlie]

161. You're right

Bad memory. I should've looked his bio up before posting.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

62. I have no idea

but what possible difference could it make? I served in the military. Does shooting a gun and wearing a uniform make someone more capable of running a country? Nixon served in the military. So did McGovern. Thomas Jefferson didn't. Carter served, Reagan didn't. How does serving in the military qualify one to do much of anything other than salute properly?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

134. Reagan Was A Captain

He made training films as an Army Captain.

[GreenArrow]

65. some others

Daniel Akaka--Hawaii, WW 2
Jeff Bingaman--NM
John Corzine--NJ
Bob Graham--FL
Daniel Inouye--Hawaii, WW 2
Ted Kennedy--MA
Jack Reed--RI

Jim Jeffords--VT

http://www.navy-reserve.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=1286


But what difference does it really make?

[sangha]

99. Dean was misled also.

Dean never said that Bush* was not telling the truth. Dean said he was opposed to the invasion because the evidence Bush* produced did not, in Dean's opinion, justify an invasion, and *NOT* because Dean thought Bush* was lying. If Dean thought Bush* wasn't telling the truth, he kept it to himself.

[mandyky]

115. Never call someone a liar

unless you can prove it. Dean cannot know Dumbya lied anymore than anyone of us can, misled fits in this case, since no WMDs have been found and it is becoming obvious to all that SH was not an IMMINENT threat.

Dean merely says Dumbya did not make a case that convinced him - very savvy.

[sangha]

So Dean lied?

He knew Bush* was lying but was afraid to say so?

misled fits in this case

And that's what Kerry said, and I would note that Kerry said it long before Dean did.

[JVS]

143. You sound very eager to pin something on Dean. Why is this?

[Eloriel]

151. Dean has said many times that Bush misled us into war

And this morning, on the Today show, he said he knew ahead of time -- just as most DUers did -- that the various rationales given weren't in fact true.

Eloriel

[Andy_Stephenson]

26. Kerry is an idiot if he believed Bush

frankly I don't want another idiot running the country. Kerry will never get my vote EVER...even in the General election...I'll just leave the space for President blank.

[THUNDER HANDS]

so you'd rather have Bush than Kerry?

am I hearing you correctly?

[Andy_Stephenson]

41. 6 is

1/2 dozen of another. Kerry has enabled Bush quite nicely...there is no difference. War, Patriot Act, Homeland Gestapo...that is my line in the sand and I will NOT cross it. He voted for them not me. So now I will withhold my vote from him. If Bush wins...its not my fault...I won't vote for him either. If the DLC is hell bent on nominating BushLite...fine by me...just don't expect my support.

[THUNDER HANDS]

47. I think your view of Bush-lite is a little off

Nobody in this field is anything CLOSE to being Bush-lite.

The last of which are either Dean or Kerry.

Lieberman, maybe.

Gephardt, maybe.

Edwards, maybe.

But if you look past what's happened after 911 and look at Kerry's lifetime record, he is ANYTHING BUT Bush-lite.

[tomp]

175. assume for the moment that bush and kerry are the same thing.

(i do, btw.) (and flamers, eat me. this question is for gbnc.)

don't you want to punish bush?

don't you want to deny bush legitmacy, just so he/they can never say he was legitimately elected?

don't you want to rid the u.s. of that special texas brand of fascism and return to our more traditional gentile imperialism?

i do.

can you imagine waking up after the election for 4 more years (at least) of that creep and his sick soul-sucking scumbag sidekicks?

i can't.

i'd be happy to take on kerry and his merry band of "stately" imperialists in the streets ('cause i KNOW we ain't gettin' what the kerry-huggers think we're gonna get).

all i ask is that you think about it.

[blm]

86. He believed in the PROCESS of government

where you give the president the benefit of the doubt, then bash him when he fucks up.

[sangha]

106. Dean is an idiot if he believed Bush*

and at no time did Dean ever say that Bush* was lying. He still hasn't.

[w4rma]

121. Dean on Larry King

...
Let's look at what the president said. He told us that he was buying -- that Iraq was buying uranium from Africa. That wasn't true. He told us -- or the vice president that Iraq was on the verge of obtaining nuclear weapons. That wasn't true. The president told us there was a clear link between al Qaeda and Iraq. That wasn't true. The secretary of defense told us he knew exactly where the weapons were, right around Tikrit and Baghdad. That wasn't true. So if I could figure that with my foreign policy team as a governor from Vermont, my question is why should we be led by people who couldn't figure that out and who voted to give the president unilateral authority to attack Iraq?
...
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0308/04/lkl.00.html

[sangha]

123. Your Dean quote supports my argument.

1) Even in this quote, Dean doesn't say that Bush* was misleading anyone. He only says that what Bush* said was not true, leaving open the possibility that Bush* was merely mistaken. Kerry, on the other hand, has stated that "Bush* misled" the public.

2) This quote comes many months after the vote on the Senate Resolution. If you think Kerry should have realized that Bush* was misleading *BEFORE* Kerry voted for the resolution, then can you provide a cite from before the vote where Dean says Bush* was misleading the public?

[CWebster]

135. He may have "misled" many people,

but there were enough of us who weren't blinded by the flag-waving madness. And there were those who should've known better than to be so easily "misled". As if there was ever a lingering moment, for a fleeting doubt that Bush was ever intent all along on anything other than the obvious rush to war.

[TLM]

173. More total BS Dean Bashing...

"Even in this quote, Dean doesn't say that Bush* was misleading anyone. "


Took all of about two minutes to find this on Dean site.

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7147&JServSessionIdr009=piyxszwe6e.app7a&security=1&news_iv_ctrl=1301

By now, we all know that President Bush misled the American people on the rationale for war with Iraq. We now know that the Niger uranium claim was discredited, that evidence regarding aluminum tubes was highly questionable, and that the link to al Qaeda was virtually non-existent.

[CWebster]

59. That's garbage

and everybody knows it.

[aquart]

3. The primaries will decide.

We have the luxury of good choices this time. Relax and enjoy it.

[synthia]

4. you could have left out the denniebopper bit

we don't want to melt down this GD forum so soon, do we?

[dpbrown]

5. Nicely said

Thanks for your perspective.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

6. Kerry may win the nomination but if he does he will destroy the party.

For decades to come.

Very few people get it.

[THUNDER HANDS]

8. enlighten me

Because I don't see all the cause for fear.

Kerry is exactly what DU wants.

Sure he voted for the congressional resolution, but do you honestly think if HE were president at the time he'd even have broached the subject of Iraq?

Maybe some people just want someone who shouts a lot and makes happy sounds.

I want someone who can speak calmly and still inspire people.

[diplomats]

10. Huh?

eom

[whoYaCallinAlib]

11. I feel the opposite.

And I think I do get it. Not trying to start an argument, but everytime someone says "you people just don't get it", it makes me wonder what makes them so smart?

[liberalnurse]

27. I get it...

n/t

[Desertrose]

31. and Dean wouldn't?

You're right that very few people get the fact that the one candidate who is sticking closest to the way I remember dems is Dennis Kucinich...


Peace
DR

[markus]

100. I don't believe so

There are people who would destroy the party. Joe L is a third rail. I have been telling people that, but haven't been around any of the big dogs in the state lately (too busy doing summer stuff to go to fundraisers, etc. Sorry, just the way it is).

I'd probably vote for the a--hole, but the delegates (and especially the delegation, national committee people, etc.) would have a serious enemy if they manage to rig up the worst possible choice in a divide convention.

I could stomach a John "Patroit Act" Edwards, and Kerry would be fine. And I hope they wouldn't field a tired retread like Gephardt.

But Lieberman. Ughh. I'm sorry, he's not a Third Way centrist. He's a liberal Republican, and would be one if there were still room in the GOP for such folks.

[RamboLiberal]

9. Maybe - I'm not discounting Kerry but he better get rolling

but I am getting tired of the crap about Dean going skiing while soldiers died.

Once and for all - he did not dodge the draft - the military physicians gave him the medical deferment - happened to plenty of good men in WWII, Korea and Vietnam eras. That is not dodging the draft like Bush and many of the Chickenhawks chose to do!

Damn, sometimes I feel like I'm in Freeperville instead of DU when we have to stoop to this.

[THUNDER HANDS]

17. I didn't say he dodged the draft

I said he skipped out on the war.

And, guess what. He WAS skiing while Kerry was getting shot at.

[CWebster]

63. It was not a voluntarily skipping out.

Anyhow

How old are you anyway? People forget that many good man chose not to go and suffered the consequences because they believed the war was immoral. Kerry enlisted didn't he? And apparently learned of the immorality as a result of the experience. Didn't seem to apply it this last time around, did he? Now some believe that the way to outdick Smirk is to play the game by his rules - just to get the ego strokes.

[Le Taz Hot]

74. A disingenuous statement

you've made over and over again and on which you've been corrected over and over again. What is the point with all of these "name-your-candidate can't win" threads? The first caucus is in January and they start coming hot and heavy after that. Would it be that difficult for you to let people, I don't know, actully, like VOTE? (What a concept!)

Ah, nevermind. Just one more for the Ignore list.

[Ripley]

Exactly.

And what's up with this crap about "I gave money to Dean, I love Dean," then they go on to insult his real supporters with childish names and spread the same old RW talking points about him?

Like Vietnam is really what the 2004 vote will be centered around anyway.

And if we're going to make this a personality contest, why is it that more people seem to know who Dean is (and he was only some insignificant governor of an insignificant state) than who Kerry is (who has been in the Senate for how long now?)?

[THUNDER HANDS]

don't be so sensitive

I use Deanieboppers in a loving way. I didn't even coin the term, some Dean fan did.

And I do like Dean. And I would vote for him.

But only if Kerry dropped out of the race.

I think Kerry is more than a credible candidate, I think he's an outstanding candidate.

Dean is a very, very, very interesting candidate, who's campaign is going to be prone to violent swings, I feel, due to Howard's agressive and abrasive nature.

I feel Kerry is the solid, and safe, choice.

Comparing Dean and Kerry is like comparing Dave Kingman to Barry Bonds. Both can hit home runs, but only one strikes out every time he doesn't hit one out.

[Eloriel]

157. Deanieboppers refers to STAFF not fans

You're wrong again.

Kerry is a damn chameleon. I've been looking at his record a little bit -- he'll do whatever you want, whatever's politically expedient, whatever's apparently popular, whatever's going to get him noticed, whatever's going to work for him and him first. Dean's lines are popular? Great -- he can say them too. No compunction about stealing at all, no sense of integrity that might make him come up with his own lines. Dean's got great grassroots support? Great -- Kerry promises the same thing (but no way he can deliver -- and not delivering is not news for Kerry either). And on it goes.

Eloriel

[THUNDER HANDS]

171. I think I missed the point of your argument

Could you say it and like...make it coherant?

:)

[stickdog]

164. Sticking with hitters, comparing Dean to Kerry is like comparing

Ernie Banks to Ron Hunt.

[THUNDER HANDS]

169. ok...this is obviously before my time

Who is Ron Hunt?

[wryter2000]

12. I have no real problem with Kerry...if...

If he backs off from supporting the war in Iraq. I'd have no problem with believing Bush lied to him.

Deaniebopper in Oaktown :)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. Kerry - the "Liberal" that voted for the war.

If he says the "same things" that Dean does, then why should we vote for him? Because he says it with "gravitas"? Does that mean he looks constipated when he says that he supports Bush's war?

Actually, I don't think he has a chance. If he had had the courage to vote against the war, he would be unbeatable at this stage. But, he sold out and is now paying the price for his political opportunism along with Joe and Dick.

[THUNDER HANDS]

25. paying the price?

He's still practically tied for the lead.

Dean has surged, everyone else has fallen- except Kerry.

Nobody is jumping from the Kerry bandwagon to the Dean bandwagon.

These will be the two men left standing at the end.

And may the best man win.

[Frederic Bastiat]

35. So why doesn't Dean release his records

See whose got more skeletons.

[deutsey]

15. Whoopdeedoo for Kerry

I won't have a problem voting for him. I was an early Kerry supporter (I even have a nice handwritten note from him thanking me for encouraging him to run for president). For a number of reasons, though, including Kerry's votes on the Patriot Act and giving Bush war powers, I now believe Dean is the better candidate and that's why I'm working for him.

There are scenarios far worse than Kerry winning the nomination (such as, for example, Lieberman wins the nomination).

Let's hope that if the scenario you present happens Kerry will know how to tap the grassroots support that Dean has so successfully grown.

[Nederland]

18. I agree

Dean will do well in Iowa, New Hampershire, and Delaware, but that's about it. Then we start getting a few southern states: South Carolina & Missouri (2/3), Virginia (2/10), Oklahoma (2/17). Then Super Tuesday comes around and he's toast. His message simply isn't selling well in the south--hell, Sharpton is outpolling him in South Carolina. Plus, I'm beginning to sense that he peaked way too soon. Its a shame, because I like him better than Kerry.

This all assumes that he doesn't start tailoring his message to be more appealing to Southerns of course. We will see...

[deutsey]

38. Out of curiosity

Do you have a source for your info on Dean's numbers in the South?

I'm not challenging you! I just would like to see how weak or strong he is in the South because the rural area of Maryland where I am is more sympathetic to the South than the rest of the country, IMHO. Understanding these numbers may help me to develop strategies for promoting Dean where I am.

Thanks! :hi:

[Nederland]

103. Source

Asking for a source isn't a challenge, its just sensible :)


http://www.zogby.com/search/ReadNews.dbm?ID=726

<snip>

Senator Joseph Lieberman of Connecticut continues to lead the pack of Democratic presidential hopefuls in South Carolina polling, as he did in March, according to a new poll by Zogby International. He is the only candidate in double digits at 13%, followed by Missouri Congressman Richard Gephardt and civil rights activist Rev. Al Sharpton, tied at 8%.

North Carolina Senator John Edwards is tied with Massachusetts Senator John Kerry at 5% each. Former Vermont Governor Dr. Howard Dean is 6th in South Carolina at 4%, followed by Florida Senator Bob Graham (3%), former Illinois Senator Carol Mosley Braun (3%), and Ohio Congressman Dennis Kucinich (0.2%). More than four in ten (42%) say they are undecided.

<snip>


Granted, much of these numbers may simply reflect the fact that Dean has spent little time in the South. Also, the numbers seem to indicate that no-one has a really strong lead there. Perhaps Southerns are simply waiting a little longer before making up their minds. They do seem to take their time in almost everything else, why not politics too?

[lastliberalintexas]

126. Umm,

your source shows that Sharpton is outpolling Kerry too.

One thing that Dean has going for him in the South that the others don't is an A rating from the NRA. You let union member Bubba hear that, and he just might realize that he doesn't have to vote for Shrub again. Because he did in 2000 (overwhelmingly in the South). And he did it b/c he was convinced that Gore was going to take his guns.

Good grief- we had to campaign against the repubs AND the national Dem party after that freaking convention where it seemed that every other speaker talked incessantly about gun control!

I think that most of our candidates can do well in the South if our economy keeps tanking. After all, many areas of the South have higher unemployment rates than the nat'l avg. I wouldn't write off any of our 8, very fine candidates. (Nope, we only have 8. After the last few days, Lieberman can no longer truly believe that he belongs in the Dem party.)

[ryharrin]

46. Why is he toast on Super Tuesday?

He's tied for the lead in California, has what may be the only candidate organization so far in Texas. Not to mention the 4,000 meetup volunteers he has in NYC, plus thousands more across the state. I think he'll do fine on super tuesday. And what makes you think Kerry will do better in the south than Dean?

[Nederland]

104. Response

I think he'll do fine on super tuesday. And what makes you think Kerry will do better in the south than Dean?

Two issues: the war and civil unions. Dean's anti-war stance doesn't fly as well in the South as it does in New England, and as for civil unions...well, I think that's obvious.

[ryharrin]

114. Good points.

But doesn't Kerry also support something like civil unions? I agree that it won't be as much of an issue for him, but they do have similar stances. I also think that Dean's large grassroots base will outweigh any problems he might have because of his Iraq war stance.

[poskonig]

60. I'm not sure Kerry will do well down south either.

Gephardt or Lieberman could turn out to be the big surprises.

[GumboYaYa]

19. If Kerry wins the nomination

I will be one of his strongest supporters. Even though I like Dean in the primary, I certainly like Kerry over Bush.

If Kerry wins he may be the benificiary of Dean's grassroots efforts to reinvigorate the party. He will not have that benefit if he and other Democrats continue to attack Dean supporters for being excited about our candidate.

I'm sorry, but "deaniebooppers" belittles Dean supporters and has no place in discussions amongst people who are supposed to be on the same team. If Kerry and his gang keep up this negative approach they run the risk of alienating a signifcant part of the Democratic support and assuring themselves a loss in the general election.

[Beacho]

23. You may be right

But I think that he'll put Dean in the second slot. The pragmatic side of my political activism tells me that this is the best chance to unseat Chimpy McCokespoon.

That being said, I am spreading the word about Dean here in Washington to do my part to give him the strongest hand possible when negotiating with Kerry.

[Yupster]

33. A Kerry - Dean ticket

would sure be a surprise. Is Dean at least from southern Vermont?

[bowens43]

24. Don't bet the farm on it .

Dean isn't the front runner for nothing. Soon Kerry will be nothing but a bad memory (of course , if by some miracle he does get the nomination, I will support him).

[Nicholas_J]

28. THe DLC has decided...

It does not want a repeat of 1972, where a one issue candidate is supported for the election, and a landslide is created for the Republicans. It was exactly the type of environment being created by Dean that allowed Nixon to be propelled into the White House. Taking a single issue, the Vietnam War. McGovern attacked the party estabishment, as Dean does. Deans own record has nothing in it that makes him particularly different from the DLC, and his governorship was a record of doing what Deans own supporters criticise the DLC for. Failing to oppose the right wing take over of government. Far from oppose it, Dean revelled in opposing the Vermont Party's move to the left and ther is NO record of Dean ever having initiated, requested, or supported either socially liberal or fiscally liberal government programs.
Dean has largely gained support, not because of what he represents, or does not represent, but simply by attacking what others do not like. There is NO evidence that Dean will do anything other than institute even more right wing elements into the democratic party.

THat is the one great point I have tried to make about Dean, that he is all talk, and that the young people that he has gotten to support him are easily led by talk. After they have decided to support him, then then will fight tooth and nail, even when it is shown that Dean actively opposed programs that are democratic staples. Programs to assist the blind, the handicapped, the poor,the elderly, in order to cut big breaks for the rich. The cannot answer such charges, either calling them lies, or G.O.P. propaganda, evenwhen they come from the most respected liberal writers and journals in the nation.

Dena has energized youth, but how. They refuse to listen to any information that indicated that Dean may simply be using them to attain an end that those who support him would dispise if it came from any other source.

Yse, It is likely that Kerry, but if not Kery, any other DLC member will be selected by the party, as the party can decide to prevent a candidate from recieving the nomination, if it decided that MORE people want a DLC candidate, even if these are different candidates.

Even the party machine is not DEMOCRATIC, but representative. AND can so decide that the delegates from five candidates can be used to create a supermajority for ONE of the five. Which means if the DLC has decided that letting Dean get the nomination means another 4 years of Bush, they can make that decision.
There is nothing in the polling data that shows Dean as a viable opponent to Bush, and the party wants to beat Bush, not win a popularity contest.

Dean opposition to ALL demcratic legislation, and aproval of ALL REpublican legislation wile governor should be the SOLE determinant as to whther it is Dean or the DLC who will take the party further down the path of conciliation to big business and the rich.

From the record. Dean has done far more to hand over his own state to the Republican Party, and to Big Business than all of the membership of the DLC combined. Dean supporters just do not like to hear this fact. Or stop up their ears when facts that state this are presented.

[janx]

36. "The DLC has decided" ????

Excuse me, but the American people, not the members of the DLC, are supposed to make the decision.

(This raises my hackles, as you can see.)

[ryharrin]

51. First of all,

fuck the DLC. If they want to run this election like they ran 2002, then they are severely deluded to think they will do better than Dean. Second of all, I asked you this in another thread- do you really believe that the DLC would be willing to so severely overthrow the will of the voters in order to get their "electable" candidate? If so, they're even worse for the party than I previously thought.

[stickdog]

165. And speaking of people who are all talk ... (NT)

[LuminousX]

30. I agree to a point

Unless Dean covers so much ground that Kerry, the Hare in this race with the Tortoise just can't catch up. The worst thing for a leader is to appear to be a follower. Kerry followed Bush right into a bad war. If Kerry continues to wait, anything he says will just seem to be following Dean.

[indigo32]

40. exactly my point about him

"The worst thing for a leader is to appear to be a follower"

[indigo32]

34. Dean is Ice Cream?

well your whole post is nothing but opinion. Which you are entirely entitled to. My opinion is that you are wrong. I like Kerry, but he isn't going to just swat Dean away. You'll see.

[SEAburb]

37. Rove's media puppets are freezing Kerry out and hypeing Dean

It is going to be hard to overcome the media manipulation. Kerry is going to have to change his strategy from running for the presidency to running for the Dem nomination for president. Kerry should keep hammering Dean on the tax issue, even Dean supporters have a problem with Dean's position.

Kerry should go after Dodgy Dean's buck passing positions on guns and gay marriage, where Dean wants states to make the hard choices, so he doesn't have to. Dean really shows a lack of leadership on these issues.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

49. Kerry still has to answer for his vote on Iraq.

If he wants to "stop Dean", all he has to do is quit mealymouthing and simply say something like, "My vote backing the war in Iraq was wrong and I regret it."

[SEAburb]

54. bait and switch , sorry i'm not biting /nt

............

[poskonig]

61. Kerry should promote his outstanding record instead of talking about Dean.

Attacking Dean only opens up statements about how Kerry was duped by Junior, which doesn't help the Kerry people.

[deutsey]

75. Rove's media were dismissing Dean as a has-been

a few months ago. The alleged liberal Margaret Carlson even went so far as to say Dean's "star was fading" and that she thought Kerry would get the nomination.

Then Dean started scoring some big points with the large turnouts for rallies (a couple thousand in Austin, TX shortly after Carlson's comments, for example), and then he blew away Cheney's $250,000 fundraiser by raising over $500,000 in a weekend (Cheney had fat cat donations, Dean had "little guy" donations).

Also, here's an interesting article that suggests Rove's media haven't been too kind to Dean:

http://www.progressive.org/sept03/rc0903.html

[Ripley]

91. Funny how if you talk something down enough it goes down.

Just a little disturbing so many "liberals" keep talking Dean down (as his numbers rise). :crazy:

But I guess we're supposed to believe Karl Rove actually controls all of the media in America, all of the Democrats in Congress and last but not least, he controls the way I think (He says he would love for Dean to win the Dem nomination...tee...hee! and I say OH MY FRICKIN GAWD!!! as I back away from Dean.)

[SEAburb]

107. So, you don't believe Rove has any influence on the media

Well then don't let me wake you from your sleep.

[Ripley]

110. Oh yes sirree.

I think that one man gives "marching orders" on a daily basis to all the thousands of columnists, editors, reporters, journalists in all of the thousands of magaines, newspapers and TV shows.

I fully understand the corporate mediawhoredom.

But you are in a serious conspiracy bubble to think Rove is followed by thousands of people.

[JNelson6563]

105. yes, all that coverage

especially the stories where they include pictures of McGovern etc. all intended to be so helpful to Dean.....

Maybe Dean is getting begrudging coverage, and negative as they can spin it, because his campaign is a newsworthy story. I mean, I am hard-pressed to think of any other candidate who is stirring the grass roots like Dean is.

But of course if you are thinking that whoever is best at meeting and winning support from the big players (lots of money) is who will win, I can only say I think you are wrong. America is tiring of the exclusivity and elitist politics.......

Just my .02

Julie

[West Coast Democrat]

39. Both have their own personality flaws.........

Dean looks stiffer than Al Gore in my opinion, and Kerry tends to look weary when he speaks.

But of course, Bush* has even worse personality flaws.

[oasis]

101. Kerry has a commanding presence.

With security/defense being an important factor in 2004, the perception of strength is a valuable asset.

[CWebster]

42. but Dean is going places

Kerry ain't. Kerry is a coward.

[deutsey]

50. I think calling him a coward is out of bounds

So far Kerry hasn't shown himself to be as adept at connecting on a grassroots level as Dean, but I don't think that's a result of cowardice. :shrug:

[CWebster]

67. Political coward

who tries to wiggle out by claiming he was misled...misLED, and still stands 100% behind his vote.

He is frozen with inabilty to know what to do and the longer he waits the riskier it becomes while he waits for the tide to turn.

He should just play it straight. Can he?

[deutsey]

79. I think Kerry's playing by old-school rules

while Dean has decided to invent some new rules to play by.

[CWebster]

85. You want to know something

I'm not sure whether I like Dean more or Kerry less. You know what I mean?

[deutsey]

95. I think so.

:shrug:

:hi:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

53. Yup!

That's exactly the way I see it too. Kerry lost the nomination when he voted with the fratboy.

[chimpymustgo]

57. Howard Brush Dean III is an opportunist.

A tap dancing, issue dodger who is about to be exposed.

[ibegurpard]

69. You really need to change your DU handle.

to deanmustgo.

[CWebster]

70. hi chimpy

out imploring everyone to "respect" your choice? ;-)

[jfkennedy]

87. Dean is not a Democrat or a liberal

Dean does not have the basic principles needed to be the next great President of the United States. Dean reminds me of a used car salesmen. Hell even the Republican propaganda machine is selling Dean just like they were selling Nader, in 2000.

General Clark is the real thing. He can win and be one of the greatest presidents we have ever had.

[poskonig]

88. Dean at least is proud to call himself a Democrat.

People like Clark and Lieberman are afraid of the name.

[blm]

149. When he first started campaigning, posko...

he was distancing himself from the left. He was in SC in March, 2002 ONLY stressing his conservative side saying he was different from the other Dems, had an A rating from the NRA, and that he had trouble with the liberal wing of his own party. He didn't even bring up civil unions or universal healthcare. He shifted when the liberal $$$ presented themselves.

[blm]

152. Here's the proud Democrat

trying to explain that he's different from the other Democrats because he is MORE conservative. No mention of ANY Democratic issues like healthcare or civil unions when he wasn't in front of progressive Dem audiences.

March 2002
http://www.thestate.com/mld/state/2794665.htm
Dean, a medical doctor, describes himself as "a bit unusual" for a Democrat. For one thing, "I'm very conservative about money," he said. Also, he pointed out, he has been endorsed by the National Rifle Association.

"I have trouble with the liberal wing of my own party," Dean said.

Other things working in his favor, he added, are: "I'm not from Washington. I'm very direct with people. I say what I think. People always know where I stand. ‘.‘.‘. I think people are ready for that."

[CWebster]

90. The one

who can't decide whether he is a D or an R?

[deutsey]

96. Or even if he's going to run

:evilgrin:

[Ripley]

92. Oh yeah?

Where does the General stand on Abortion? NAFTA? Health insurance?

Hmm?

[janx]

116. hi chimpy.

.

[Beacho]

43. Oh no

not the McGovern Mantra. This meme has been spread far and wide by the DLC and their fellow travellers in the media.

There is no comparison

[Demobrat]

45. Dean was given a government physical in his senior year

of high school. The government decided he was to be called up only in a national emergency. Not Dean. Vietnam will not be an issue for him.

[Starpass]

55. Everybody take a breath until the end of September

There's a lot of noise right now playing to a big vacuum in the public caused by SummerTIME!!! All of these candidates are going to do the traditional "come on like a deamon possessed" come September (those who don't might as well take da' plane home). There is soooooo much political strategy going on right now it would boggle our minds. If a candidate comes out attacking the ass off of Bush (because remember, Bush is going to come out with fists flying and fucking filthy tricks at the same time)in September, our fickle media will be all over said candidate like a fly on shit and then will be trying to play all of them against each other. No matter how tempting, they goddamn better not start into a going at each other and thus handing Bush and all the lines fed to the Bush machine for '04. I think that's when the DNC is going to get involved as the "master" riding herd on the crowd and putting together something they can sell after primary season. Hell, you may end up with Gephardt taking Iowa because he is sucking down the Union endorsements left and right; but I don't think you will see Gep giving an acceptance speech at the convention. This Party has just begun----get out the noise makers, the beer, and the funny hats and let's make the guy with the big, sick hangover be our favorite drunk: GWB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[damnraddem]

64. He may or may not.

If he does, I'll vote for him.

Just as I will Dean if he wins the nomination.

Or Kucinich, in the unlikely event that he takes it.

[msanger]

66. nanny nanny pooh pooh

Sometimes the level of "discussion" here makes me think I'm in freeperville.

Both candidates - hell, almost ALL the candidates are heads and shoulders above bush.

If Kerry begins to inspire people the way Dean has, then he'll probably get the nomination.

If Dean manages to keep the momentum and deal with the "too liberal" label, then he'll probably get the nomination.

In either case, what is gained by attacking the other guy -- especially by the footsoldiers who frequent these boards and should be spending their time attacking the real enemy -- gwb and his handler Karl.

And if you disagree with me then that just proves that you are probably smarter than I am.

[CWebster]

72. They started it

;-)

[dragonquest8]

68. when he INFORMALLY announced his candidacy, he was a nobody

many pundits just laughed at him that he had absolutely no Chance.
now he is a front runner. go figure.

Having said that, I really don't see any of them could beat Chimpy in 2004.

[CWebster]

78. Republican instructions:

convince all that the little lord Georgy is unstoppable in his dazzling glory as he he triumphs insurmountable heights!!

Here is his epiptaph:

Drunken frat boy runs country into ditch

[indigo32]

84. Last time... it was "Leave poor little Georgie alone, he can't help it"

this time it's "nobody can beat him" Well I'm not buying their line this time any more than I did last time.

[spanone]

Kerry doesn't really connect with me

Dean is starting to.

[Warpy]

71. Who really gives a rap

...which horse wins this race?

It's ANYBODY but BUSH, folks!

[Gringo]

82. You Kerrycrats are all convinced that we hate Kerry, aren't you?

Most of us don't. We just like Dean better. I'd be just fine with a Kerry nomination. I will work for Dean until he's out of the running though.

[JohnKleeb]

93. well with some I can see why Rat gets the idea

BTW this Kucinich supporter likes Kerry, excluding patriot act and the war resolution, he would be very high for me, also I know Dean opposed the war but in reality it seems that Kerry wanted the UN not just us to handle it though, and on the patriot act I have to say, Dean isnt totally opposed to it like DK is, and like most congress people if he was one and if he would have, I could forgive. Kerry I think will give my generation to experience another Camelot I hope.

[CWebster]

94. yupper

the DLC's main man--their crowning hope to smash that upstart, out-of-line populist back down where he belongs.

[JohnKleeb]

97. youre supporting dean right?

Even though they have been bashing him, I hate to be honest but Dean has said hes a fan of the DLC, I think while Kerry and Dean both are good on social issues, Kerry has the upper edge economically, also while recently Kerry may had been hawkish with the war and all he did investagate Iran Contra in the 80's and was a founding member of veterans for peace. Some give Kerry a bad rap because he voted for the patriot act, I really think had Dean been a congressman or senator he would have done the same. I support Kucinich right now but theres much more to like about Kerry than Dean even with Kerry's support for the war. Kerry is one of the best environmentalists in the race, I dont mind Dean but in many ways Kerry surpasses him. They both are electable.

[CWebster]

102. No he didn't

he said they had some good things to say in the past but they swung too far to the Right.

I don't know how many damn times that has to be repeated. I am starting to believe that dean will be the one if he perserveres on the path h's on - considering the heatis always on him? Where's Kerry vacationing in Nantucket?

Dean is singled out because he is in everyone's sights. I think that it is sad, tragic really, that Democrats finally have a fighter, a stimulating fellow to carry the momentum along and here are Democrats kicking him because they resent his popularity.

[JohnKleeb]

113. I dont resent his popularity I originally supported the guy

Yeah he said that I acknowledge that. You act like Dean is this humble man. Also while I like Kucinich for his humbleness, I admire the Kennedies even though they are rich, Kerry had it well off. I dont resent Dean but you know some of us like to act like Dean would have voted against the patriot act and the war. He wanted UN permission as did Kerry. I hated what Lieberman did keep in mind. Also if Dean is such a fighter and I think he is a pretty good one honestly but this bugs the hell out of me, if he really opposed the war, why didnt he the then retired governor of vermont speak at any war rallies, I will bring up the man I support for the job most for this, Kucinich spoke at the anti war rallies. He's the one who got many congressional democrats against the war resolution. Also flame me to death on this but I feel like Dean has literally came out of nowhere, and after ruling as a moderate, I wonder how is the democratic wing of the democratic party, I am sorry but in many ways Dean is like the DLC we intensely dislike, if he had been for the war, I think they would love him really.

[CWebster]

141. Kucinich didn't vote for it

Many didn't. Pelosi didn't. Kennedy didn't. Corzine didn't. Sarbanes. Durbin. Byrd. So how do you assume("like to act") that Dean would've voted for it? Even Kucinich claimed he would voted for it if there was a case made for imminent threat.

Kucinich's humbleness will make him easy prey.

Vermont is a pretty progressive state, to be a moderate in Vermont is still a strong Democrat.

[mandyky]

108. About Dean's medical deferment

Dean did not ask for it, unlike Bush who chose to sidestep service by the air national guard.

Anyone who's been through basic knows soldiers run miles a day and running was the thing that caused Dean pain.

About the skiing it was in Aspen CO not VT where Dean skied. If you are gonna bash him at least get your facts straight!

[THUNDER HANDS]

117. oh come on

now we're just splitting hairs

The point is, skiing during a war after you were fortunate enough to get a medical deferrment is no big deal to me...

...but if you don't think that's going to be used against him...

come on

Yeah, Bush went AWOL from the Guard (which, I'm still not sure if AWOL is the correct term) but how many times has the media picked up on that?

Me personally, I think it's better to have a war hero run against a deserter rather than someone with no foreign policy credentials at all.

[w4rma]

124. Dean on the 1-Y deferment that was given to him

Dean: First of all, let me say that there’s only one person who’s contending for the Democratic nominee for president who did serve in the military, nomination for president, and then let me explain the circumstances of my draft classification. I went to my physical in Ft. Hamilton in Brooklyn, which was a great deal like the scene out of Alice’s Restaurant in terms of the different sizes, shapes, colors, and all kinds of people were there. I was given an examination. I had a previous back problem, which is evidently congenital, which prevented me from doing any sustained running, a problem that I’ve had since then, since that time, which requires that when I get out of the car I often have some pains up and down my leg and back and so forth. But I have been able to exercise at—ry vigorous athletic life except for some things. One of those is long-distance running, which is how the problem came to my attention in the first place. I noticed the pain when I was in high school running track. In any case, the—after the physical, I received a one Y deferment. That’s how the United States government decided that they would use me. One Y deferment means you can only be called in times of national emergency. I didn’t have anything to do with choosing any draft deferment. I didn’t try to get out of the draft. I had a physical. The United States government said this is your classification. I’m not responsible for that. I didn’t have anything to do with the decision. That was their choice.

Russert: A military physical.

Dean: Yeah. I had a military physical. I had a draft induction physical in Ft. Hamilton. I think it was, perhaps, during my senior year. I don’t remember the exact date.

Russert: If called, you would have served?

Dean: Of course.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp

[sangha]

127. About that deferment

My recollections is that the military physicals were not all that thourough. Is Dean's condition an obvious one, and if not, then how was it detected? IOW, did Dean tell them about his medical problem, or did the military physical reveal it?

[Shanty Oilish]

111. Yep. It's the resume.

I don't always agree with you, Magic Rat, but when I do (like now) it's usually when you're saying something I don't have the guts to post. :thumbsup:

The first caucus is only about 5 months away. I prefer Kerry but can't wait to vote for ABB. :)

[THUNDER HANDS]

118. well

I try to straddle that fence between lucid and looney.

:)

[Terwilliger]

112. I wouldn't be sure

Kerry is a walking popsicle stick...if he doesn't show somebody something, and soon, he'll be out of the race before he knows it.

[THUNDER HANDS]

119. soon?

Last time I checked he was tied for first. He doesn't have to destroy the rest of the field...just come out on top by one vote and he gets all those delegates.

[robbedvoter]

122. Kerry= contempt (for the Florida 14, disenfranchised voters

anti-war activists, activists who asked him to take a position on Florida's electoral votes ("who cares what they think? - he said - or literal quote: "They didn't ask, and even if they did, it wouldn've made no difference"). I'll cry in my teacup and maybe even stay home on election day - because contempt is the one thing I do not accept.

[THUNDER HANDS]

125. where exactly did he say that?

just curious.

Because I didn't see Dean out marching for Al Gore.

Did you?

[LEFTofLEFT]

128. Also - the next winning lotto numbers are

Why do people post crap like this??????

[mlawson]

129. As of now, it will either be Kerry or Lieberman.

Hide and watch. Unless someone else emerges quickly from the pack, the Dem power brokers will install one or the other I have named above.

This is not what I want to happen, but I think it will.

[janx]

131. I'm not going to hide and watch.

There's an important Dean MeetUp tomorrow night. It's time to write some letters again! ;)

[mlawson]

132. It's just a figure of speech.

I think there is still time, maybe the 'fix' isn't in, yet. But there is not a lot of time.

Obviously, I am still haunted by what happened to Gary Hart in 1984, and that was before Donna Rice.

[JCMach1]

130. Unless he WAKES UP!!!, Kerry is the Bill Bradley of this cycle

Sorry Kerry supporters...

Kerry has been out of sync the entire campain until this point. In short, un-Kerry like. His statements and appearances have left me cold, especially considering what I had seen from him before he announced. He also 'looks' very unhealthy since his operation-- unlike Graham who looks MUCH better than when I saw him last November.

In Kerry's favor, there is still time...


***Disclaimer: Still undecided here!!!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

136. I

don't think anybody knows who the eventual nominee will be.

[CTLawGuy]

137. ....

"Kerry is meat and potatos"

I disagree

Kerry is Milk and Toast

[MODemocrat]

138. John Kerry has the funds

I love Dean, but we all know how money buys everything.

[Duncan Grant]

140. As long as we're calling 'em like we see 'em...

this post is nothing but flame bait. So...please go sell it somewhere else, we're all full up here.

[THUNDER HANDS]

142. sorry

if you're offended, but as you can see...you took my bait.

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

*cough*

:)

[Duncan Grant]

146. Not offended...

but just so weary of the Dean/Kerry flamefest at DU. Can't we all just get along?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

148. What's wrong with flame bait? I love watching the moths burn themselves.

n/t

[West Coast Democrat]

144. If Dean is "Ice Cream" as you say....

He should urge Ben & Jerry's to come out with a special campaign flavor.

[THUNDER HANDS]

145. they have

I forgot the name of it, but Ben And Jerry's did make a Howard Dean inspired ice cream flavor.

Anyone remember what it was?

[govegan]

155. Ben Cohen (and Jerry too, I think) have endorsed Kucinich

Will they ever have a soy cream to celebrate environmental integrity, and good health to go along with the good politics. Probably no time soon. Too bad.

Okay, magic person (I don't want to call you a rat, unless you wear a hat, maybe a sombrero), Dean and Kerry, despite their good qualities, do not appear to be outstanding leaders.

Very many on DU seem to feel that military service, or the desire to serve , is somehow a mark of courage and of the good intentions of a candidate.

I was draft age during Vietnam, and I registered. I knew one thing beyond any shadow of a doubt: If I were called, it was jail or a foreign country. I would never in the darkest hour of my soul even have considered for one brief nanosecond allowing the immoral and lying deceivers to send me to do their dirty work.

Now I am glad that Kerry saw the light, had a change of heart, so to speak. Yet, he did go initially. He also initially gave authorization, through his vote, for chimpy's dirty war. Kerry has done a lot of good work in his career, and he might be an okay president. I do not see him as an outstanding leader.

Now, Dean has said that he would have served in Vietnam. Again, the same problem as Kerry. Perhaps Howard Dean would have had the same change in perceptions as Kerry, had he actually served. I need to learn more of Dean on some issues (he has a terrible website--very flashy but lacking in substance, last time I looked). My first reaction to an American doctor, possibly from the medical establishment: Do not trust this person. The American medical profession has been guilty of promoting or hiding some very serious lies and deceptions of their own. The same groups that for years promoted cigarette smoking and endorsed it in advertising, has long promoted invasive surgery and all sorts of extemely expensive care regimens with little or no thought for serious reform at the roots of the problems. Doctors have tended to promote disease care, at the expense of health building.

So, you see, these two men do not have the type of creative sensitivities required to be great leaders today. Not by a long shot, to my way of thinking. They may be good men, and good politicians. The American people, and all of those affected by American policies, really deserve better. Will we get it? I will not hold my breath waiting, to be sure.

People I grew up with came home dead..............if that is coming home. Some were devastated emotionally, some physically, and some both.

I have always felt deep sorrow for their fate. I have never shunned or disrespected them. Many trod their paths in extreme bravery.

I have also seen the very serious devastation in the lives of those who did not go, who resisted any way they knew how, those who would not "kiss their f'ing flag" as e.e. cummings wrote of Olaf.

The evil cabal in Crawford, DC, Kennebunkport, at the media whores, and the Pentagon can be undone. I believe that they are arrogant and ignorant enough to be undone. They did not get where they are by themselves.


"scream as if all the nights converged,
scream with such a heartrending voice
until the cities tremble like little girls
and knock down the prisons of oil and music.
Because we demand our daily bread,
alder in bloom and perennially harvested tenderness,
because we demand the Earth's will be done,
that its fruits be offered to everyone."

- Federico Garcia Lorca

America is reeling as one in a drunken stupor, a sailor in some strange seaport who guzzled the exotic and intoxicating oil. He cannot get enough of it now.

Maybe America is like that Popeye (the detective's nickname--or something like it) character played by Gene Hackman in the French Connection II. Chimpy and his pals in the neo-con fascist cartels are like the French heroin pushers, who hijacked Popeye (the New York detective in France to catch the smugglers/pushers) and strung him out. Now America needs to go "cold turkey" on this rap. We don't need a half-way solution. We really need revolutionary change. That is why we need strong and dedicated leadership.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

156. Maple Powered Howard! (nt)

[David Zephyr]

154. I Admire Your Standing With Kerry

and if he should somehow win the nomination, then I will be on board with you for Kerry, but....

Dean's got it in the bag, Magic Rat.

(I'm going to see Bruce at Dodger Stadium).

[seventhson]

158. Kerry is a spook IMHO: Skull and Bones

Blood Brother of Bush I and II

He's a loser!

GORE is MY MAN!!!!

[MissMarple]

159. Don't get your knickers all in a twist.

You may have a problem with that later.

[fabius]

160. Kerry's fine, I'll vote for him,

if he's the nominee. I imagine most other Dean supporters will too. Right now my money's on Howard. Literally.

[tedoll78]

162. BULLSH!T ALERT

"Dean skiied in Vermont while Americans died in Vietnam."

Not going to Vietman WAS NOT his decision. An army doctor in Knoxville - not one selected by him - determined that he was physically unfit for service; the doctor determined that the fused disc posed a *potential* health problem. When he was called for the draft, he showed-up. But he DIDN'T make that medical decision, and he shouldn't be shamed for living his life after meeting the obligation to his country.

Comparing Dean's situation to Bush's situation is a cheap shot. Bush told the country basically, "you can depend on me" - and then he didn't follow-through on that promise. In contrast, the country told Dean, "we can't have you."

Consider yourself informed now; you no longer have ignorance as an excuse when you criticize him on this topic.

[stickdog]

163. Professor Put-me-to-sleep

is making as much noise as he can.

It's just that when he speaks, the rest of us are laying low, snoring.

[TLM]

167. Dean fan my ass... you're spewing the same tired talking point attacks.

"Dean skiied in Vermont while Americans died in Vietnam."

Dean went to his draft induction and was rejected when he failed the physical.


“Imagine what will happen once Kerry starts rolling”


LOL! Yeah, just imagine what will happen when Kerry stops acting like he’s entitled to the nomination and starts trying to earn it.

However with the war on Iraq, the 350 billion tax cut, the no child left behind act, and the PBA ban… it seems doing nothing is about all Kerry is good at these days.

He is about as exciting and motivational as a bowl of soggy potato chips.

[THUNDER HANDS]

172. LOL

You know...I'm going to a Dean Meetup tonight.

I am, seriously.

I can't wait until they shave my head and slip me the koolaid.

:)

[election_2004]

174. I find this whole thread quite amusing...

Kerry supporters insist that Kerry will be the nominee and Dean has no chance.

Dean supporters insist that Dean will be the nominee and Kerry has no chance.

But I would be proud to give my vote to either of them in the General Election and campaign for them!

Now let's stick to what's really important in the long-run, and prevent Lieberman from being coronated as the nominee by the DLC.

[JVS]

177. Good post