How Do You Think This Dean Statement Will Play in the Southland??

[Starpass]

I’m particularly interested in hearing from Southerners. Caught the segment on Newsnight regarding Howard Dean last night. Dean and the Dem presidential race was discussed by Brown with the young man (face familiar--name escapes me) of the The Republic; and the analysis was, I thought, very good. At the end, as they discussed the primaries in the South, was when they brought up a statement by Dean. First let me run the analysis by you because it’s quite interesting regarding Dean and Kerry.

Young man said that right now the Kerry campaign is in some trouble and his staff knows it (i.e., he desperately needs to get his face and words all over the news like Dean). He said that the “base” for both men are basically the same within the Dem party---the “educated” (i.e., Gephardt for example has the blue collar labor unions sewed up, etc.). He said Kerry is in danger of losing Iowa and being bumped off in NH and that that could literally be the end of his presidential bid because from there the primaries swing to the South.

If Kerry came into the South as a winner he has momentum, would win some and lose some in the South; but the momentum would continue. If he came into the South as a loser, it’s no place for him to “start” whipping up momentum. Now, as Dean stormed into the South, he said that he, of course, will be met with the “Dean-Busters” in full force. He said the Southerners like Edwards because he’s one of them and even Holy Joe because of his religiosity (kinda disagree there--they also don’t like non-Christians). This, of course, for either Kerry or Dean is going to be a hard crowd to please. Then they talked about Dean’s “statement”.

They both knew about the statement---have no idea when or where he said it. Apparently Dean’s approach to the South is: ‘You have elected all of these republicans for 30 years---now take a look at your states. Look at your still failing educational systems, your poverty, blah, blah, blah.’ You get the picture. Howard is going right in their faces and not cuddling up to and flattering the Southerners but is in essence telling them to face facts and think. Personally, I love it---however, Howard might want to campaign in full body armor and behind bullet-proof glass!!! It’s about time it was said. It’s about time these repuke strongholds were challenged to think. Even if Kerry eventually ends up doing well up North, of course, Dean will still campaign in the South, and I think it would be great to have him start sowing the “seeds” in their minds. Anyway---a) what do you think? and b) if you think there would be real backlash, do you think it would be a backlash just at Howard or at the entire party??? This campaign should be reaaaaal interesting........

[LuminousX]

1. Generally

I think Dean's strategy is a good one. He will be saying things that need to be said. He will be saying things that we've all been saying privately for years (the GOP poor vote against their best interests).

He is also eliminating the race issue that seems to come up during the Southern primaries. And I can almost rest assured that he won't be going to Bob Jones.

In the end though, it could be the biggest loser of a strategy. I say it is far better to go out in a blaze of glory, highlighting the problem as you go instead of pandering and ignoring the problem all together. The problem is, of course, the lies that have been fed the GOP poor in the south.

[mistertrickster]

2. I'm not a southerner, but I think they like all Americans appreciate

honesty and straight talk. If they're going to go Republican again, then Dean has nothing to lose. If they aren't, then this is the way to reach them.

The south is a diverse place these days . . . it's not just George Wallace sipping mint juleps and bitchin' about the "negras" . . . there are a lot of folks who want better schools and health care there and everywhere.

Leiberman et al. had their chance mincing words and playing Bush lite--we saw how well that went.

Let's go for what we believe in this time.

[Starpass]

3. Guess I forgot about the "other part of it"

Yep, most of them are probably going to march, via orders from their preacherman, straight to the booth Nov. 2004 and vote republican and again watch their state glow "red"; but, who knows, it might give a bunch of them something to munch on while they're standing in line......who knows........

[LuminousX]

8. Blue

Bush is blue this election. Blue states = sad states.

[DemLikr]

4. Won't this approach make Mr. Rove angry?

which means I love it!

[styersc]

10. Dean may have a hook hear that could ring throughout the south.

He should try to go for the elderly, formerly yellow dog democrats.

Remind them that Bush is in the party of Coulter, Limbaugh and Hannity who call FDR a traitorous commie. The south was saved by FDR, CCC, WPA, TVA. He shouls go for the aging yellow dogs by securing Social Security and Medicare as an issue as well as defend the noble history of the liberal side of the party. Make sure to differentiate between traditional liberal Dems and the right-wing southern Dems who fought against Civil Rights.

[bowens43]

5. Only a recent southerner but

I think that the folks I know will respect a man who doesn't spend all his time blowing sunshine up their asses.

[Gringo]

6. I like his tactic, but

never underestimate the ability of Southerners to wallow in ignorance.

I know many who live in hellholes like Mississippi, Alabama, or Dallas, who, in spite of all evidence to the contrary, think that they are living in wonderful, beautiful communities, and that they'd rather die than live in some terrible place like Manhattan or San Francisco.

I was born and raised a Texan, but I'll take SF or NY over Dallas ANY DAY.

[FoxNewsIsTheDevil]

19. Give me a break. NY and SF? Who can actually AFFORD to live there?

Your snobbish elitism is not productive at all. New York and San Francisco? lol Yes, those "strongholds" are really representative of America </sarcasm> You can keep your "NY and SF", I'd take TX and the rest of the South any day and WIN SOME ELECTIONS.

[Gringo]

53. Wow - defensive much?

And no, I can't afford them either, but that doesn't keep me from loving them. And the fact that Dallas, and much of the south are in the cultural gutter doesn't make me a snob. Hell, maybe it does - I don't really care. There are islands of civilization in the south like Austin and Asheville, but even they are becoming ugly and overrun with Wal-marts. And 90% of the people do nothing but sit on their ass all day watching football, rather than get out and move (which is torture because it's so damn hot)

Also, you ignored my point, which was that southerners refuse to even see or do anything about the squalor around them, rail against people living in liberal cities like SF and Boston where the quality of life is better. Rather than following their example, they elect even more repukes to cut down all their forests, keep services to a minimum, and ensure that their states' ranking in education stays in the bottom 10%. I have a great deal of sympathy for people in the south - they have to deal with unchecked environmental degradation and rampant racism, religious fanaticism and dire poverty. And there's no finer person than a southern liberal, (I love Molly Ivins) but they are so few and far between as to make the south a real drag to live in.

[Yupster]

64. "islands of civilization" in the south - lol

listen to you. Hold on for a minute while I boil this missionary.

[LondonReign2]

80. Gringo is right

As a Chicagoan forced to move to Dallas (job considerations, but what else can you do in the great Shrub economy?), I agree wholeheartedly with the assessment.

Dallas is only slightly better than Houston, which is the seventh circle of hell. In the rest of the state, west Texas in the eighth circle and east Texas in the nine. Austin is the only city in this hideous state with any redeeming value.

People in Texas are ignorant and proud of it. If they don't repeat how great Texas is at least 3 times a day their minds are in danger of begining to function and they might see what a shithole they live in. And EVERYONE has religion! Oh, Lordy, they shore do! Ugh!

{Whew! I feel better!)

[Yupster]

86. "People in Texas are ignorant and proud of it."

Listen to y'all. - lol.

Living here in West Texas, er, I mean the eighth circle of hell, I think I'll just go out and practice my cypherin.

Then I'll go sober up mom and we can whistle Dixie together. I like it when she joins me because seeing as I ain't got me no teeth, though I'm fixin to carve me some.

[KoKo]

90. Gringo! You mean the RW Fundie Southerners.......not the rest...please

don't judge all because of what you see in the media.......

[Gringo]

96. As I said in my post

I was born and raised all over Texas - I know the territory. I include the RW fundies, but also just the run of the mill shitkicker don't give a damn about society working-class suburbanites too. Of course there are fine people all over the south, but you have to wade through so much idiocy....this is the state that elected Dumbya governor TWICE, you know.

I miss California dearly... It's overrun with airheads, but at least a lot of them have got their heart in the right place.

[Yupster]

113. Geeze Gringo

you're really something else.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemBones DemBones]

20. Trouble with your analysis is that you're talking about big cities and

lots of people have no interest in living in big cities. They don't want to live in Atlanta or Dallas anymore than NY or SF.

[Yupster]

61. I was born in Brooklyn and now live in Texas

and I'll take Texas any day. If I didn't like living here, I'd move.

[misanthrope]

103. Bravissimo!

very true indeed.

[CMT]

7. not a southerner but I tend to agree with Dean's assessment

He has to level with southerners and say "hey you have been voting Republican by and large for over 20 years and what do you have to show for it? are your schools better? do your kids have health insurance? are there more jobs being created? if not, what do you have to lose if you take a chance on me?"

[janx]

9. Dean may be from New England, but he's very comfortable

with rural people. He loves them! I think he could attract a lot of rural southerners given the chance.

[NewGuy]

11. This is a losing strategy.

I lived in Alabama for a while and can tell you they are not amused by any northerner thinking that southerners are not as good as they are. This is like pointing out the ugly babies, no mother wants to hear it.

[janx]

14. To be fair, do we know the exact statement or the context

of the statement?

I think I remember something about it. It wasn't about being better than southerners, it was about respecting southern Republicans enough to point out that they could do better about their voting choices.

The far right has pandered to religious southerners now for over twenty years and what positive things have happened? Very few or none. It's about respect.

[CMT]

17. I've heard Dean's statement

He said he is going to talk to the south the same way he talks to the north about healthcare, jobs, education and if you talk sence to them they can be persauded to vote for you.

[janx]

22. Well there's certainly nothing wrong with that...

as I said, he seems to respect people. People are going to like that a LOT.

[Eloriel]

104. Right -- NOT at all condescending, as the original poster

suggested.

He said he was going to go to the South and say: well, you've been voting Republican for years now and where has it gotten you? Are your children's schools any better? Are you losing jobs? Have you gotten a raise in the last 5 years? Do you have healthcare for your children? Maybe it's time to vote Democratic.

Not at all condescending: pragmatic, hard-hitting.

Eloriel

[janx]

119. ...and respectful.

.

[lkinsale]

67. Agreed

It sounds like he thinks the south is inferior, and that never plays well. With anybody.
"Telling it like it is" and "honesty" always depends on your point of view. I would not have supposed northeasterners would have appreciated it back in the early 80's if a politician had gone up there and said, "Look how you've screwed up and turned this place into a rust belt. I'm gonna tell you how you should have done it."

[inthecorneroverhere]

12. no way

This is said by someone who is actually rather interested in Dean's good 'net fundraising results.

If he, or for that matter, any candidate, does this, it will be the 'worst possible' strategy. Dem's need a candidate that will unite, not divide. One of this countries biggest historical divisions is that between North and South.

The candidate is going to have to say things a different way. Southerners are sick and tired of New Englanders insulting them! Dean is from Vermont, which is a New England state.

The school failures are more in Florida and even California than they are in the 'deep South.'

He could get some mileage if he hammers the jobs-moving-overseas issue and tells Southerners that is a consequence of Republicanism. He could get a lot more mileage by emphasizing that he is a candidate for all Americans, not just for wealthy corporations.

If any candidate, I don't care who he is, comes to the South with the language of a carpetbagger, he will automatically lose. Let's not wait until the general election to find the result of this 'experiment.'

[Starpass]

15. inthecorner---that is basically what they said on Newsnight

Both Brown and the young man (whose name I can't remember) did say that it is very, very risky because it's also "insulting". I guess if some Southerner came up here to Maine and told us our roads were shit, I'd bristle a bit---even though they are..........

[inthecorneroverhere]

26. Yep!

It's kind of like blaming frost heaves on the Mainers.

Or, if a Southerner from the green hills of Virginia came up to campaign in Cleveland and started talking about how Northern cities are busted-out wastelands.

[LondonReign2]

81. It is in the delivery

He can deliver the exact same message in a non-belittling manner. To whit:

"For the past 20 years, you've faithfully put your trust in the Republican party, and they haven't delivered for you. They've promised better education, better roads, better and more jobs--and they haven't delivered. Well, here is what *I* plan to do...."

[FoxNewsIsTheDevil]

27. Exactly, he also needs to hammer home the "balance budget" idea

and how the Republicans in Washington aren't doing it.

[inthecorneroverhere]

36. Balanced budget

Is probably the top biggest-win issues for any Dem in the South.

The :dem:'s absolutely have got to focus and hammer away at this issue with charts, visuals, repetition, whatever it takes to get the point across about *shrub's fiscal irresponsibility.

'Social liberal' issues don't play well in the South. By contrast, fiscal conservatism plays very, very well here.

With *shrub's red ink, the budget is the perfect 'attack' issue.

[Lars39]

28. I live in a county in TN that has a 20% drop out rate.

It's a quietly affluent county that used to pride itself on its *education*, and still tries to paint itself that way. The people aren't buying the concept as well because they are paying higher taxes, and the parents of school age kids are being run ragged raising money to help the schools on top of a $30/child school fee.
I don't know the outcome yet, but last night the county commissioners were going to vote whether or not to reinstate the Maintenance of Effort fees to the state, so that the state would not come to the library and literally haul away 20,000 books, or a third of the entire collection.

People are getting fed up with this kind of stuff, and are starting to blame the Republicans for it. And one thing that will make a difference in the election is that the county is booming, with people from all over coming to live here, essentially diluting the backwardism. Hallelujuh!

[inthecorneroverhere]

33. sounds like typical suburbia to me

Yupsters from 'everywhere' moving in....typical suburbia

Lots of places in the suburbs have problems with the dropout rate.

Most school districts in the cash-strapped non-Southern states of California and Oregon are having stuff like student fees, library cutbacks, fees for transportation, etc. happen.

Just do your part to preserve the pretty green spaces for me, please?

[Lars39]

35. It is still a rural, basically agricultural county,

with a very full industrial park. When I said all over, I meant from foreign locales, too, like Japan, France, Germany and Mexico. The newcomers have higher standards and are letting the locals know it.

[inthecorneroverhere]

39. keep it green

Just make sure they don't cut all the trees down and put Mall-Warts on the corners.

The old barns and cabins in rural areas are really picturesque.

There are some lovely green places in the South. Lots of them are threatened by urban encroachment.

I hope there are a couple of environmental organizations doing their part to make sure that the newcomers don't bring too much pavement with them.

[Dob Bole]

13. It won't work

There is a cultural rift. If Dean actually said something like that, it would come off as arrogant. A lot of southerners don't actually know that they've been voting Republican for 30 years either, because they have Dem governors and/or voted for Clinton. So the statement also is not factual.

The only hope for the Dean campaign is to nominate a Southern and slightly conservative VP who is well-respected. This way he can appeal to them without any policy concessions. He should look for older, respected, and possible retiring Southern senators, so here is the possible list:

Ernest Hollings
Zell Miller (not well-respected outside of Georgia)
John Breaux
Bob Graham
Robert Byrd
or
Gen. Wesley Clark

[Yupster]

18. Plus many of the state legislatures are still Democratic

Most places in the south have only been voting Republican for 20 years for president. For sheriff and school board and state legislator (the guys who actually make the local decisions about schools and stuff) they have been voting Democratic until pretty recently, often still today.

For instance, the Texas state legislature just turned Republican this last election.

So, in short, if the strategy is to have a New Englander come to Georgia and tell the locals how stupid they are, I'd say watch how fast the local elected Democrats run for the hills or switch parties -- those who haven't switched already. Maybe Dean can make even more friends by telling the Georgians that his family has some silverware that his great-grandfather brought back from the Civil War that he said he dug up in Georgia somewhere.

Edited for spelling

[inthecorneroverhere]

23. A-men

I'll go so far as to say that I can hardly believe the Dean campaign is even considering this approach to campaigning in the South.
The last thing Southerners would ever vote for is a northerner with a condescending attitudes toward the South. This includes many, many Southerners who have been to the North and have seen grimy, gritty closed-up factories, and all of the other aspects of the North that northerners don't like to admit.

I, as a :dem: and a person not even born in the South, but who has lived here quite a while, am sick and tired of certain northern liberals' condescending attitudes toward this region of the country. I am going to flat out tell you-all (all, because there's more than one person doing this sort of thing on this board) that the Dem's lost my vote from 1990 through 2000 because of the insulting, condescending actions of a New England 'liberal' supervisor towards myself. I am sick and tired of the South-trashing on this board!!!!!

This supervisor was a hypocrite pure and simple, because not only did she think that Southerners were stupid bigots, but she also deigned it her right to violate Franklin D. Roosevelt's 1930's-era wage and hour laws with respect to entry-level employees. I stopped voting :dem: because this rapscallion was the 'liberal Dem' that I was most familiar with. In terms of comments about the South-and-North etc. she took the first shot of the offensive, not me. "I didn't fire the first cannon shot." I came to that job with an open mind about the North.

You are so right in that any northern candidate, like Dean or Kerry or even Lieberman needs to pick a moderate-to-slightly conservative Southerner as VP. Although he is getting on in years, I would love to see Hollings as that man.

Hollings has a very good record on civil liberties, and is a truly independent man. He is against the enormous growth of federal powers under *shrub.

A more realistic (age-wise) and also excellent VP choice would be Wesley Clark, or obviously Bob Graham, if he drops out of the race.

Zell Miller would be a poor choice. He's too much of a *shrub clone.


edit: subject-verb agreement

[HootieMcBoob]

60. Hollings or Grahm

would be excellent VP choices. He very clearly laid out his ideas on what type of running mate he would choose if nominated. Someone from the south and someone who understands washington. Basically someone who would fill in the gaps. He also said speculating about a running mate at this point is very premature. Clarke, if he isn't the nominee himself, would be a great secretary of state or defense.

[lkinsale]

72. Graham for president

Why should a guy with all the credentials, experience, ability and geographical advantages just use them to support a candidate who doesn't have them?

Graham for President, not VP. He'd be the best president.

[stickdog]

111. 4 Words

1-3) Exciting the Base

4) Charisma

[Lars39]

16. From the south.....

I like the message, and I think a lot of other folks will, too.
The deluded Republicans(of which a good many are fundies and good ole boys) won't vote for him cause they're voting Republican, hell or high water.

But there are disenchanted Republicans that are looking for anybody but Bush, just as there are lapsed Democrats that are getting very po'd, and will be going to the polls for the first time in years.

Tennessee has lost a lot of jobs in the rural areas. There are a lot of TN National Guard units being utilized in Iraq and in TN, too. Their families are hurting. The schools are hurting for funding. People are getting fed up. When I can go into virtually any store and overhear people griping about Bush or the Republicans, the writings on the wall. Sure you hear/see the *war cheerleader* type every once in a while, but the griping is starting to overcome the rah rah sounds.
MY Conclusion/Opinion: I think people would vote for anybody with a clear NON-Republican message.

[Barney]

21. A losing strategy in the South

Southerners don't like it when they feel someone is pointing out their flaws. Republican southerners will twist Dean's words and present them as an attack by Dean on all southerners. (Remember, Republicans are not bothered by facts.)

[charlie]

24. Is this the statement you're talking about?

"I intend to talk about race during this election in the South. The Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us, and I'm going to bring us together. Because you know what? White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."

It's from his address to the DNC this past winter.

[Beacho]

25. It's about time

that someone reminded southerners that taxes and 'big gov'mint' keeps them from wallowing in their sewage.

Cut off the South from federal dollars(which they contribute THE LEAST), and Dixie would make Mexico look like Switzerland.


BTW, as far as the cultural rift is concerned, doesn't Dean at least agree with southerners on gun control?

[inthecorneroverhere]

29. Hey!

You wanna lose the votes of more Southerners than have already been lost by the Dem's? Then, just keep on saying things like this.

I'll take green hills over your burnt-out Northern inner cities, thank you!!!!!

I am so sick and tired of the South-bashing in this forum!!!! I can't say this strongly enough.

South-bashing is one of the few things that would make me consider not-voting in 2004, and I know that is a potentially disastrous thing to do, (if enough Dem's collectively don't vote) so don't make me do it!!!!

edit: fixed appearance

[Beacho]

31. If you were referring to me

I wasn't bashing the South. I was laying out some facts and here's another one;Southerners are to easily persuaded to vote against their interest by the bullshit 'cultural issues' and the rest of us have been paying the price.

What I said about tax revenues and expenditures is true and supported by the record. Deal with it

And stop being so goddam sensitive


I reiterate, telling the truth is not bashing. If I called y'all a bunched a bucked toothed biscuit eaters, THAT would be bashing

get it?

[inthecorneroverhere]

yes, I was

Yes, I was referring to you and your comments about 'Southerners wallowing in their sewage'!

You wanna lose my vote for the Dem's, d***n Yankee?!

I told you and your ilk to stop before. Now, stop!

[Upfront]

56. Southern Folks

Southern folks are no different than anyone else. They are proud of where they live and should be. I go there every winter and find it darn good also. All areas of the country have their problems. I think Howard Dean is the real deal, and the real people of America, the one's that do the work, that makes the wheels turn, will see that in a heart beat. Bob Graham is running hard and is making this northern boy proud of him. He is knocking the crap out of Bush. He, and Sen. Byrd can be my president or vice president any time! I know for fact that there are more Byrds and Grahams in the south, and they would be elected anywhere. I think that our nothern guy, Dean is cut from the same cloth, and people will see it quick. I hate to bring it up but anyone who knows anything about the war between the states, respects the hell out of southerners and the south. Don't leave us we are all in this together, we need every vote to save our country! :toast:

[lkinsale]

77. Well said n/t

[Dob Bole]

30. Bad strategy indeed...

"Vote for me because I won't take your gun" will not work. Balancing the budget and eliminating the national debt will attract Perot voters, though.

"Why don't you wallow in your sewage if you don't vote for me" isn't a sure strategy either.

[FoxNewsIsTheDevil]

34. Yep, his fiscal conservatism needs to be HAMMERED HOME in the South

Balance Budget/pay off debt/states rights on guns needs to be hammered over and over again in South Carolina.

[Lars39]

38. If he could get with Bredeson in TN and extoll the virtues of

Snodgrass, the former Comptroller of the Treasury, it would help his campaign a lot.

[blindpig]

120. another stick

to beat the swine with would be trade. gat has stomped the snot out of folks around here. probably DK's best shaft in SC.

[indigo32]

42. I'm pretty sure that's not how he'll word it

or even how he means it.

[lastliberalintexas]

87. Well,

maybe Texas Dems really are a different breed. I've said this many times before and I guess I'll have to keep saying it. The gun control issue KILLS us in the South. The 2000 Dem convention was awful! God it seemed like every other speaker droned incessantly about the evils of guns and exorted the ideals of a gun free society. We lost Texas then and there- the election didn't even have to be held.

I'd love to see a poll on this, b/c I think that there are more one issue gun voters than people think. At least in Texas. And just once in my lifetime, I would like to be able to campaign for a Dem in my state and not have to worry about the freaking NRA. Pretty please?

And Dean's message can resonate if he is careful about the way he presents it. If he comes across as too argumentative or condescending, then it will hurt. Any of our 8 candidates can do well here if our economy continues to tank!

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TacticalPeek]

32. This is two annoyingly separate issues: primaries vs general.

The first three graphs regard the primaries, where positioning and message-tailoring will depend on the dynamics then in play. But some of that must merge with an approach to the general.

The "statement" is regarding the general election. It makes sense. It rationally should appeal to some. But he should take care how he puts this, obviously, in the land of the vanquished. His schtick is to talk straight, but if he goes this way, the impression he creates when so doing should be more like his aura in the ad he recently ran in Texas, and less in your face like a rally speech.

If he has any lefty Southerners on staff and ran this talk by them, I imagine he gets a "Right On!". But if he conversed with some of those staffers' more moderate relatives down home, he may pick up on reactions that indicate the value of, if not sugar-coating the pill, at least having a nice glass of water to help the swallow.

I suggest framing this around some new, good-gov pitch. The rePugs don't believe in government, they want it to fail. We believe in government by the people, and want it to work. And here's how your old guard has failed you and here are the results. And here's what we will do and how you will benefit.

This is a variation on what I think will be a great theme for Clark(if): accountability. Accountable for national security. Accountable for the economy. Accountable for national and international leadership. Blahblahblah.

My view is from Deep in Dixie. Defeat is not an option. Victory in '04.

Now I must run vote against some people.

[Beacho]

37. I got a question for the resident Southerners

What's their anger level at jobs going overseas and their attitude towards Corporatism in general?

[Lars39]

40. Very angry. Getting so they are connecting the dots about

corporations being greedy, but they tend to be too passive about their situation. "Well I hope things start to turn around...." Instead of taking action to help themselves or somebody else down the road.

[jagguy]

41. I southern

losing jobs, hate
corporatism, thats who has jobs

what we would like down here is a little protectionism.

[inthecorneroverhere]

47. beautiful

Thank you for saying the 'p' word. Whatever works - whether it's actual tariffs or taking away the corp's tax incentives when they take jobs out of the country - it's time to see a little protectionism for the working folks of this country.

[Beacho]

43. The maybe

That's something we need to add to the agenda. I certainly would like to see it added to what's being talked about.

[inthecorneroverhere]

45. angry about it

I've posted several times about it. It's a hot-button issue.

[TacticalPeek]

54. On this planet, we's all God's chirren.

The African, the Asian needs work, same as the Hoosier.

However, the planetary job-leveling must include worker and environmental protection, i. e., international laws, enforced. With such laws in place, fewer US jobs would migrate and more world market demand would potentiate more US jobs.

Corporatism is given, responsible government regulation is the counter.

Aside from ivory-tower theorizing, though, banging on job loss in the South could strike deep chords. Slashing at corporate greed scams down here will also cut well, lots of ex-worldcomhealthsouthenron pissed-off folks.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. A Few Points

I have lived in Florida since 1970 and was even a Kennedy delegate in 1980. I was full of youthful idealism to think that Teddy could have done well in the South.

Southern Democratic primary voters make up a rather small part of the electorate in the Fall.

Clinton swept the South in 92 but in 1988 Dukakis won the Florida primary and proceded to lose it by nearly t-h-i-r-t-y points in the general election. In 1984 Gary Hart did quite well in the South winning Florida but he had the momentum by beating Mondale in New Hampshire.

I think the South is fertile ground for Edwards and Graham but the winner of IA and NH will have alot of monentum. I still think where you come from is destiny in the South.

I prefer to talk about the national election and rely on history for as Santayana says "those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it."

No northern Democrat has carried a majority of southern states since JFK in 1960. I will repeat it so it sinks in. No northern Democrat has carried a majority of southern states since JFK in 1960 and he had a southern running mate.

Bookmark this post. Unless we have a midwesterner or southerner on the top of the ticket our candidate will have to pull the Electoral Colllege equivalent of an inside straight. Conceding most of the South and border states to the Repugs he will have to carry the entire northeast and the "non-mountain" West and find some more widely scattered states in between.

[inthecorneroverhere]

50. Thank you for the facts

You are exactly right.

The reason that no Northern Democratic candidate has carried the majority of southern states since 1960 is that there are too many Northern Dems who are into the condescension thing with the South. Southerners remember this vividly.

The condescension thing is what has gotten me into more arguments than anything else.

I want a Midwesterner or Southerner at the top of the ticket so the Dem's have a reasonable chance of winning in the Fall.

[HootieMcBoob]

68. condescension?

In what way were Dukakis or Hart condescending to the south? See this is the thing that pisses northerners and everybody else off about the south. Just what the previous poster said. Southerners will not elect a candidate from the north. They just won't. Northern candidates have no problem electing candidates from the south though. Why is that? I mean I really don't get it. And I can't believe it's because they are condescending, that just seems like a childish reason. It's gotten to the point where, we can't nominate our best candidates, because they happen to be from northern states. I mean at least you have to understand why this sticks in the craw of folks from up north, right?

[incontrovertible]

99. bluntly,

It's not so much the "best candidates" that we decline to nominate, it's the policies endorsed and enacted by the "best candidates" the North tends to generate.

You, the urban north, have subway systems and we don't. We can't afford a $5/gallon tax on gasoline, or any other BTU tax, no matter how little you in the northern magalopolises have to drive a car.

You the urban north, most likely have a police response time of a few minutes. Huge percentages of southerners have police response times of a half-hour minimum. We need firearms - yes, even handguns - to protect against intruders. You, the urban north, could not possibly give less of a shit about that.

You, the urban north, see pretty much no legitimate reason that anybody in the United States might have to own a SUV, and would basically be happy to outlaw them entirely tomorrow.

You, the urban north, don't have one-fiftieth of the illegal immigration problems we have in the border states, and yet you see any attempt to patrol the border or check the citizenship of applicants for state-funded welfare programs as racist and bigoted, and think we, the border-states, should just shut up and suck it. Gray Davis is getting recalled due to a budget that was essentially destroyed for just this reason, and yet has any northern politician proposed that the tax burden of the whole United States be adjusted so as to deal with this national, multi-state problem? Hint: chirp.

Having lived here, in Texas, my entire life, and spent a substantial amount of time in the Northeast, and in discussion with people native to the urban north, I'm basically of the opinion that the majority of urban northerners would greatly prefer it if, following the civil war, the Southern states had been stripped entirely of their suffrage, and been relegated to a perpetual taxation-without-representation.

Bottom line, it seems to me, and to most southerners, that most urban northerners, regardless of party or affiliation, believe they know better how to run the lives of, and control the property of, the entirity of the South.

Would the South vote for a northerner? Absolutely. The South would even vote for a black northerner, believe it or not. The sole requirement would be that the northerner in question flagrantly and repeatedly repudiate the whole presumption of superiority so prevalent throughout the urban north.

Frankly, I've been in most towns with a population of a million or more north of Virginia. For any urban northerner to tell me that, say, Baltimore, or, say, New Haven, are in any way objectively superior to, say, Austin, or Atlanta, or Biloxi for that matter, is an insult to my intellect, as well as to my home. I don't hear much about people beating down the doors to get into Cleveland, but whenever I go down to San Antonio, I lose count of the yanqui tourists after about the first half-million.

Finally, I reject presumptively any objection regarding my "defensiveness." It isn't defensiveness to say "look who's talking" after being called fat and ugly by the fattest, ugliest person in the room.

[Bake]

105. It's a cultural thing. We remember what CARPETBAGGERS are.

And it's NOT Hillary moving to NY.

Bake

[Starpass]

46. Starpass here - wrote the original post and want to add something

After reading replies-------I was a bit baffled if this was the "strategy" in that I know there are Southern governors, legislatures, etc. and have been for a loooong time. In other words to attack schools, proverty, etc. would be as much a hit on the Democrats as the repukes--maybe even more. I think this strategy, as some pointed out, would have to be held only if Dean was the nominee AND then, geared more to how the crap in D.C. is effecting their states and the need to get the repukes out of D.C. It's sort of like: watch were you spit.

[Romulus Quirinus]

48. Going down South...

(Yes, it's capitalized, heh) and telling people that they are acting stupid and need to do it "the way we do it up North" ain't gonna work.

We get grouchy when anyone does that. :)

Of course, I'm biased toward Kerry anywho, but just MHO.

[OHdem10]

49. If it is true , why not???

Grewup and lived early adulthood in South. I am a Kerry supporer.
There is something about Dean"s personality that makes it so he can get away with things some other candidate might not be able to carry off. He surely can ask why your you re=elect Republicans year after year and never have anything to show for it.

the South has been more and more Republicans since the 60s and Integration.When the laws were passed Democrats became Republicans.
There are congressman now Shelby, Lott and on and on who now Republicans who were democrats.For years in the south the Republicans have used the Social Issues or cultural issues whatever ---last week of campaign throw out red meat scaring the people who
vote or smearing the opposition candidates with anything from race Homosexualisty, Socialism Communism. This distracts them from considering who will do the best for the sate county or city.
Why the Democrats have not recognized that this is what goes on and waged war against it--I will never know. Best example--what the Bush Campaign did to MCCain in S. C. MCain was acussed of everything.
He had an adoped child Mother Therese asked his wife to give ahome.
the MCCains did this. In South Carolina, thephones were filled with messages-- MCain had an illegitmate child. They firghtened them by saying MCCain would let the gay agenda pass and the the gays would be after"your" children. He is a major war hero but that did not stop phone calls and flyers questioning his patriotism . Most southerners do not even vote because of this which is of course the wrong reaction but our party needs to get in there and do some serious work. Poor turnout benefits the Republicans and they know it.They use race by saying --only blacks gays and feminists are democrats. Blacks and other ethnic groups take your jobs.
Without a strong party effort this is hard to overcome.

The National Media said Bush Campaign did it what it had to do to win. Where is their morality????

[Fleshdancer]

51. I don't know about the other Southern states,

but I think it could work here in Texas. I was born and raised here and while Texans are very friendly and warm, we also have respect for truth and tough love.

Pardon my Dr. Phil mentality here (who is also Texan by the way) but there comes a time when we all have to take a hard long look at where we are, how we got there, and what we need to do to change things for the better. Sure it may be easier to shoot the messenger at first, but at some point you have to face the truth. Is it a good move for Dean to be the messenger? Maybe, maybe not. Too soon to tell. But in the long run, if the message takes off the way it probably should, it will benefit the Democrats in the long run.

You may not like Dean, you may not like the idea of someone from the North saying it's time for the South to rethink it's dedication to the Republican party, but there's no denying that the man is right. We're suffering from debt, poor public education, high numbers of people without health insurance, and high poverty rates. The question is not whether Dean is correct, the question is what are we going to do to change the current situation?

[Beacho]

52. Who you calling a yankee, cornpone?

You wanna lose my vote for the Dem's, d***n Yankee?!


fathers family from Virginia and moms family arriving here via Arkansas/Missouri after Reconstruction. AS for your 'I'm going to take my ball and go home' attitude, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Sorry, my friend, but the South needs booting Bush worse than than dems need you. I'm tired of being held hostage by this petulant attitude. I don't mean to unload this on you personally, but I've run into this attitude too many times. You know what? I'd rather lose than give into this blackmail(my personal opinion). You have more to lose than I do. Maybe after another twenty years of Dixie voting against her interests, people down there will finally wake up and realise that regionalism is dead.

[Malikshah]

55. Reinart was his name I think

And as a member of the insider elite he fulfilled his task like a good toadie.

Didn't I see elsewhere that the founder/ex-owner (?) of the New Republic was found to have donated to Chimp/Dick?

Bet this guy last night was so happy to be able to trot out his suit, get his hair nicely gelled, teach whitened and then spew forth the bilious balderdash of the beltway blowhards.

Sorry--but I almost broke the TV last night hearing the same old tripe trotted forth.

"Security Moms" is the new lingo-- gee, who created that little gem... Well guess what-- There aint gonna be no children to secure if we're drafting them for radical wars.

Dean and some of the other Dems could put a stop to that, and *gasp* be great with defense/security etc.

The Military in the US is right now suffering from the night of the long knives, cuts in VA benefits, and shoddy treatment at the hands of the current regime. They will have to be made to wake up, along with the "Security Moms" to the reality that the current regime and its sycophants (The media, the DLC, the DNC, etc) don't give a frog's fat ass about them.

[Starpass]

58. It wasn't the NEW Republic

and the kid is on one of those Sunday political panels and is the left/Dem/liberal voice. It was very honest, straight, etc....not the usual biased bullshit. It was Aaron Green who brought up the comment to him and he, too, was aware of the statement. And thus, analyzed it that it would be a bit risky, raising questions just like people have raised here.

[Malikshah]

63. Here's the Transcript

BROWN: More on the Dean momentum, what it means for the other Democratic candidates. Peter Beinart joins us. He's with "The New Republic." He's in Washington tonight.

Peter, good to see you.

What does your instinct tell you? Does Howard Dean have legs in this?

PETER BEINART, "THE NEW REPUBLIC": Yes, I think he does.

For one thing, there's a hunger in American politics for authenticity. That transcends ideology. There are people who are so upset about politics that anyone who seems to say what he thinks has an advantage. And Dean does. Secondly, in a Washington-centered field, a governor has advantages, because Washington-centered politicians who are in Congress are always going to be seen as having made compromises and maybe not looking like leaders, in the way governors have -- governors can do. And those two things give Dean a big structural advantage.

BROWN: When you look at his record, his record as governor, he was governor a lot of times in Vermont. Is he as liberal as the war issue perhaps makes him seem?

BEINART: No.

He's actually -- on fiscal issues, in many ways, he's to the right of the field. He's more committed to a balanced budget than someone like Richard Gephardt, for instance. His health care plan is actually considerably smaller than Gephardt's. He's a real fiscal conservative.

In some ways, he reminds me a little bit of Paul Tsongas, that kind of Yankee, kind of flinty or Michael Dukakis tradition. It's on national security where his persona has become that of the candidate further left. And I think that's where he's vulnerable.

BROWN: Right. And there is this perception -- and talk to enough strategists and you come to believe it's real -- I do -- that the soccer mom, to some extent, has been replaced by the security mom and that security is going to be a huge issue. And that is a huge problem for Mr. Dean, Governor Dean, they believe.

BEINART: Yes. That's right.

People point to the fact that George W. Bush and Bill Clinton came into office as governors with no national security experience. But that was in an era where foreign policy and national security weren't preeminent, like they are now. And Dean, in a way, has exacerbated his problem, as someone who didn't work on national security, not only with his opposition to the war, but with a series of comments that seemed a bit flip, and now in association with the left of the Democratic Party, which doesn't seem to take the national security issue seriously. It's going to take him a lot, I think, to make up for that.

BROWN: A couple of other things. Do you think that the -- Karl Rove in the White House is just sort of chomping at the bit to get at Howard Dean, that he is their George McGovern, the candidate they would really like most to run against?

BEINART: Yes, I certainly think they think that. There's no question about it, because they think that Dean is completely out of touch with the South. And I think there is actually some reason to believe that he doesn't have the instinct for how you would win some of the states that Al Gore lost. So, yes, they think that he can be marginalized to a few states on the West Coast and the Northeast.

BROWN: He has an interesting message in the South, I think. He goes there and basically says, you all have been voting Republican for 30 years and look at it. Your schools are still not very good. You still have all the problems that you had all along. Maybe it's time to rethink this.

BEINART: Yes, that's right.

But, as either the "TIME" or "Newsweek" article pointed out, that can sound a little bit patronizing. And what Bill Clinton understood, I think, was, he had a way, a cultural way, of toning down some of the things that sound shrill south of the Mason-Dixon Line on cultural issues. Dean, even though he is actually not a big supporter of gun control, I'm not sure he'll be able to appeal culturally in the way that Democrats need to if they are going to win in Southern states.

BROWN: Well, all right since we've wandered off on that road, which of the Democrats can, then?

BEINART: Well, I think either -- probably the two with the best shot would be Edwards, because he obviously is a Southerner and was hawkish on the war, and Lieberman, because he's more religious. He feels comfortable with the language of faith. And I think -- so those would probably be the two with the best chance, I think.

BROWN: And where does this all leave John Kerry, then?

BEINART: Well, in an interesting place. The problem is that Kerry's base is, in some ways, the same as Dean's base. It tends to be on the left end of the party, amongst more highly educated, white voters. And the concern is that it's hard -- many people think it will be hard for this to come down to a Dean-Kerry race, because they have such similar bases and because they both need to win New Hampshire, in a sense.

So the fear for Kerry is, say he finishes behind Dean in Iowa, loses New Hampshire, then he could be out of the race and someone else emerges as the anti-Dean candidate.

BROWN: Peter, good to have you with us. Nice to see you again. Thank you.

BEINART: Nice to be back.

BROWN: Thank you, Peter Beinart of "The New Republic."


Sorry about the mistake in the name-- it was Beinart.

My point was that he was following the same tack as many who discount Dean (and others) regarding National Security.

I'm sure it's been done--but what Presidents have we had recently that actually had experience w/ National Security.

Bush I is the only one I can think of off the top of my head.

(Key word being recently--- If you use Ike-- you'll have to quote him about the military-industrial complex...)

[janx]

69. Do you have a link for this? Where did this come from?

The problem is, the "quote" this thread started out with is actually some reporter's *interpretation* of what Dean actually said. So it wasn't really a Dean quote at all.

[Malikshah]

73. This is from CNN

It's from Aaron Brown's newsnight

www.cnn.com etc. etc. etc.

[TacticalPeek]

75. The Dem candidate's national security posture should be:

return the focus to real threats, queda in Afghanistan (with real nation-building) and elsewhere, being way tougher than aWol's gang, rebuilding frayed alliances, taking the steps to make our country more secure for real. Hang the Iraq debacle around the chimp's chicken neck, declare victory and return the oil to the Iraqi's and turn the mess over to the international community, supported by our defense technology, not our grunts. Voters would go for a real fighter who could mount the right battles as opposed to the pinhead's squandering of our blood and treasure.

[lkinsale]

79. Which is exactly what Graham's security posture is

return the focus to real threats...check

rebuild frayed alliances...check

take steps to make our country more secure for real...check

turn the mess (and mounting cost) over to the international community...check

********

Contribute to Graham For President (Enter "Laura Kinsale" as your BobCat if you want to give me credit toward my pledge to raise 1k for Bob.)

[TacticalPeek]

94. Keeping my powder dry for now, LK...

because I'm very interested in Clark, but I do like Graham muchly as a bushwhacker and potential President. If Clark opts out, I cannot picture a winning dem ticket lacking Graham, partially because of this "South" thing being discussed.

I see him helping get Florida, naturally, but maybe Georgia and others, too. But I like his issues as well, and appreciate what he's contributing now to the national security/intel debate.

Practically, pragmatically we should focus on which southern states are winnable for an electoral majority in '04. That may be a somewhat separate endeavor from trying to build a new FDR coalition to win the war against the remnants of the twisted Nixon/Wallace Southern Strategy, thereby putting the rePugs into the dustbin of history.

[Yupster]

115. It's not just the presidency either

If a Demoratic candidate writes off the south, Bush may bring new senators with him from N Carolina, S Carolina, Georgia, and Florida. That's a big deal.

[AlinPA]

57. He needs to talk with Sen. Hollings about what resonates,

and tell it like it is.

[Jacobin]

59. I've lived in the South most of my life

I think Kerry would bomb in the South. Its hard to describe why, except to say that he appears to be the type of NE'er vilified by RWers.

Dean is much more plain-spoken and direct. His message (health care, war, balanced budget, taxes on the wealthy) should resonate if Dean can get past being painted as a "commie-librul" etc that Limbaugh has already started.

Dean does not culturally appear to be a NE'er (not what would be perceived by my fellow southerners as smug, coiffed, indirect, etc). Maybe he is more like an old fashioned "yankee".

I'm very hopeful about Dean. He's the closest thing to what I would call a moderate Dem that is in the running who has momentum and a chance to run. Makes me feel very very old to have Dean described as a "liberal"....it'd be almost funny if it weren't so sad and scary.

Twenty-five years ago he would have been classified as a moderate republican.

[TacticalPeek]

62. I'd take an Eisenhower republican in a NY minute.

ABBB!

Ye Gawds, electoral politics!

[janx]

65. I've been trying to tell people the very same thing.

And it's another reason, I think, that he can beat Chimpy. People are really hungering for some strong, moderate sense these days. They are sick and tired of the crazy extremists who have gotten our country into so much trouble.

[KoKo]

85. Jacobin, I agree with your post....I think he has a chance because

because Southerners love "Ordinary Guy" types. Dean is certainly no "ordinary guy" but he is "Real" and that would appeal to educated Southerners over Kerry who seems a little too polished and slick. (I like Kerry in many ways, but he does appear that way).

Southerner's also LOVE Renegades........Dean for all his "partrician background" is a Renegade for saying what he believes about Bush and about his policies. He may even get the "military family" vote because the military is waking up to the fact that they were "mercenaries" for the PNAC Crowd........and "Invading Iraq" was not for the "glory of the flag" but the Glory of George Bush.

I think he has a strong chance.......but it most depends on how he handles himself from now on. And, the economy......and Iraq.
in NE (New England) so long.....now I'm back in the South....

My perspective tells me Dean has a chance.....a strong chance....if he keeps doing what he's been doing and stays true to himself instead of letting the "handlers" get him.....as Gore did....

[Iris]

66. but the South hasn't voted Republican for the past 30 years

Even if the Democrats they tend to pick are more right leaning than I'm comfortable, the fact is the South has not been voting Republican for 30 years. Obviously Clinton won much of the South.

In fact, if anything, that could drive Southerners to vote Republican more often. Georgia has it's first Republican gov't. since Reconstruction (I'm pretty sure - they may have been one "R" who sneaked in there.) So, Southerners may think the answer is to start voting in more and more Republicans.

BTW - all of my local reps are Democrat. Can't help what's been sent to the US Senate.

[blm]

70. Don't base anything on what you see today.

The vets haven't even started protesting Bush yet. The South will be alot easier for the Dems once the vet protests are in full swing.

[Starpass]

71. Interrupting my own thread again...'cause I'm curious

I know the "southern" hatred of the Northern boys of "aggression"---however, I think everyone's deluding themselves if they think the Southeners are going to draw much of a rat's ass difference between Dean and Kerry. If they hate one, they are going to hate the other. If they can accept one, they can accept the other. And that comes right to JFK (my era)...he wasn't only a Yankee with the Boston twang to 'death' mark him BUT he was a Catholic which was like trying to run a Muslim right now. He made it. You never know, you never know how this might play out. Are all those people in the south who would vote Dem going to "not to" and embrace Bush because the nomination goes to a Northern boy???? I think by then there's going to be some real "Bush-shit" issues out there that may blind people a bit to whether they talk "southern", "Vermont syrup", or "Back Bay Boston".

[MasonJar]

74. Kentucky opinion

The South is very diversified now; this has been the section of the country receiving the most attention as growing by leaps and bounds.

I believe that getting Bob Graham to be the VP is crucial to Dean and Kerry (or at least someone equally respected.) Kerry is becoming a favorite of the military and there are many bases in the South; he could certainly take advantage of that. Dean has a way about him that should appeal to rural voters (especially since Bush cannot use the gun lobby against him). Gore was cheated in Tenn and Fla. and who knows how many other states. The blacks can be counted on; we must be sure that they get to vote this time. For Jeb's race they were still not reinstated; that is unacceptable and inexplicable. I do not know how the Bush brothers get away with all that they do. It has to be the media and so we must get some big guns out there. Also the voting machines MUST be challenged; there is no way that Max Cleland lost; he was ahead in the polls.

[mandyky]

76. Hi MasonJar, I'm in

Richmond, where are you? (I am a transplant to KY, originally from upstate NY)
I think Dean's stance on guns will help him with a lot of rural voters!

[ArkDem]

78. He might win the democratic primary in Arkansas

being helped by crossover republican voters (he is the one THEY want to face). In the general election he would be soundly trounced.

[JaneQPublic]

82. Maybe this is the Dean quote they're talking about

http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/sc0503/dean050303spt.html

South Carolina Democratic Party
Columbia, SC
May 3, 2003

And the message I want to give today, before I get gonged , the message I want to give today is two-fold. We have an obligation to the African-American base in this party to be sure that we do not ignore them , and we have an obligation at the same time to talk to white people in the South that have been voting Republican for 30 years, and this is what we're going to say.

There are 103,000 kids with no health in this state--most of 'em are white, there are an awful lot of people whose jobs are going to China, a lot of people that haven't had a raise in five years, a lot of people who need schools better--they're not just African-Americans, they're whites as well. And so I want to say to white Southerners, let's put aside those divisive issues that the Republicans always bring up, and let's vote together for a better future for our children because you started out here in the South voting together for a better future for our children.

We're going to build this party back and we're going to start right here today because this is an extraordinary opportunity for the Democratic party nationally to show we are serious about competing in the South, we are going to win in the South, we are going to make sure that our base does not feel neglected. It's time to inject some backbone into our party, to stand up for the things that we need to stand up for. .

But it's also time to talk to folks who haven't voted for us for 30 years and say this. You've been voting for Republicans for 30 years; what do you have to show for it? . Because as long as the Republican party's in power, none of our kids are going to have health insurance; as long as the Republican party's in power, none of us are going to have raises; as long as the Republican party's in power, none of us are going to have health insurance for adults. We can do better. We want jobs. We want health insurance. We want better education. White people and black people are going to vote together in the South and they're going to vote Democratic just like they did when Franklin Roosevelt was president, when Harry Truman was president. . We're going to stand up again for what we believe in in this country. Thank you very, very much. .

===========
Doesn't sound to me like he's dissing the south, so much as he's dissing the GOP and the way they've abandoned the issues important to the south.

[FubarFly]

83. What does Dean have to lose?

The South is already solidly Republican, so a change of approach is not a bad thing. The key for Dean will be to be humble, and to show respect.

Democrats in Washington has been wrongly ignoring your concerns for many years. Well I'm not from Washington, I come from Vermont which is a rural state, and has more in common with you than you might think. His NRA stance won't hurt at this point. Then he could go on and point out what he did for Vermont and how he thinks its awful that the Washington Republicans are taking the Southern vote for grant it. He can then say what he will do to help, and of course listen to their honest concerns.
If people believe that Dean is serious about health care and jobs, they'll listen.

If Dean is worth anything as a doctor, he will know how to level with people and tell them a harsh truth without triggering a backlash.

[opstachuck]

84. southerner here, first post, just a few observations

Being a southerner for most of my life and currently living in manhattan, I have just a few observations about the stereotypical Northern stereotype of Southerners.

When people find out I'm from the South, I've gotten a few comments to the effect of "oh, but you have no accent and you're not an idiot". I usually play it off by acting like an idiot in my best gomer pyle impression, probably not helping the cause, but nonetheless deflecting the implication that I should be an idiot.

obviously, there is some truth to the matter... southerners on the average are not as well educated as northerners; however, that has to do with the economic situation of the south, which has absolutely terrible public education standards and a socio-economic divide which is devastating to the stability of the society. i don't think most northerners take that into consideration before judging us, which is maybe why the educated liberal-minded southerner thinks of the average northerner as being close minded and somewhat ignorant/arrogant, despite their more liberal politics. (that's my stereotype, which i know is a bit reactionary.) that said, i love the fact that up here i can talk to more people about politics without being accused of treason.

The south is alot more complicated than most people give it credit for. in my more naive and idealistic youth, I thought the south could be the birthplace of a new socialist movement (i'm not a socialist, i was just reading a little too much Marx at the time) because there are so many people who are still slaves to the economic structure.

I had a very good education in the private schools in New Orleans and as a result I've made it out into an area of greater opportunity, the Northeast. In New Orleans, when you speak of opportunity, it's more likely to be a reference to your next drink. Anyway, the point is I got a good education and I left and it's fairly likely that I'll stay in the northeast because this is where I have the best opportunities. Most of my family (there are about sixty of us counting uncles aunts and cousins) have left the south for better opportunities up north, as have most of my friends. If I meet a girl from the northeast to settle down with she might rather move to Iraq than third-world Louisiana and so on. So, on a grand scale, the South is being depleted of resources which are already pretty slim (another ex: my boss, who is absolutely brilliant, Harvard educated, a couple PhDs, is from Alabama.) But I come from the fortunate side of the southern class structure, I was able to have hopes and dreams that I could reasonably visualize achieving within my lifetime.

Alot of southerners come into this world knowing nothing of hope except what they hear in church, hence their ideological tendencies. Give them hope in the real world, something they can feel, and you've tapped into a powder-keg of emotion. The message needs to be blunt, visceral and you need to say it strongly, willingly or else they won't trust you. why would you trust a politician when you've been living your whole life in poverty with almost no opportunity to escape your situation?

Whether Dean can send that message, I'm not sure, only time will tell. All I can say is that he has captured my attention like no other political candidate in my lifetime. He speaks, at times, with an urgency in his voice that comes off as being very real, and I can almost guarantee that will resonate very well with the disaffected southern voters. There is anger everywhere in the south, directed ambiguously at their situation. If Dean can crystalize that anger while providing a hopeful message, he could mobilize southern Democrats to get out the vote in incredible numbers. if nothing else, i think he's getting more people to identify with the Democratic party which will benefit whoever gets the nomination.

[lastliberalintexas]

88. Welcome to DU

That was a great first post, btw.

[janx]

91. What a thoughtful and thorough explanation--

Welcome! Hope you stay and write more posts like that one.

By the way...I love the literature of the South.

[KoKo]

92. opstachuck ! I couldn't agree with you more! I've tried to post on DU

what you say......and others have also.......but I know where you're coming from.....have lived what you hae by leaving and now I'm back.........(older than you, I think) but your observations are mine.

So, maybe we see it and are trying to present it in a way that folks can understand. And, yes, on this thread I posted in a reply to Jacobin......that Dean has a chance....because he seems "REAL." And, that, above all, appeals to Southerners of all stripes.......(except the Fundies who prefer "Fake Religious Real" to Real....but then, I understand they are more "black and white in their views than those of us who grew up in "Port Cities:" New Orleans, Charleston, SC.....whatever.

Not everyone in the South is what the Media Portrays us as.........but we had to leave to find opportunity. I'm only back here because "Bush I's Opportunity" produced job downsizing that ended up with me back in the South...

But the South has changed and many transplants are here, Many are Repugs because they feel at home in the non-Port Cities.......but that will change as Bush II destroys America.

[opstachuck]

95. I think I could go back...

but we need to finish the reconstruction we abandoned so long ago. obviously tax cuts aren't leading us in the right direction. we need better job training to attract more industry, which will consequently beef up the higher-education system, which will keep the ambitious southerners in the south, who will create the ultimate drinking robot to destroy all of mankind, or something like that.

Also, I love to hear from liberal southerners, if for no other reason than to have people to commiserate with. Yes, I can hear Billy's voice in the back of my head... he can feel my pain!!!

[misanthrope]

110. Well, the "port city"...

...of Mobile AL is certainly not enlightened by a long stretch. The school system is a debacle, even on Alabama standards. The economy is perpetually tepid. The environmental record is shoddy. The populace is very conservative and was firmly GOP when the rest of the South was "solidly" Yellow Dog. In fact, the recent national ambience that many here bemoan is all too familiar to those who have lived in Mobile.

Just ask Tahiti Nut.

Although I will say that coast folks tend to imbibe a bit more than their hinterland cousins.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

98. Thankyou and welcome to DU! I'm a big ole yankee

with a very strong affection for the south.

[Frances]

107. Thanks for the thoughtful post

I was born and raised in Alabama, spent a few years in Boston, a whole lot of years in Maryland (a border state), and am now in California. Most of my family who are of my generation are in South Carolina or Alabama.

My personal opinion is that Kerry doesn't have a chance because he is seen as a city boy. I think Dean will win more votes because he seems like he is a rural person. I also think he sounds macho and I think Southerners like that (why do you think Bush goes after brush in the heat?). Yet Dean has class. He's a doctor and Southerners like class (they also like Elvis and that was Clinton's appeal).

Of course, the Rove machine will spin as much as it can against Dean, but we don't need all of the Southern states.

[carolinayellowdog]

116. Vermont is viewed more favorably than Massachusetts...

not just here in the South, but I would think in the Midwest and West as well. Dean being a rich New Yorker perhaps doesn't deserve to benefit from that association, but his years as VT governor have probably made him better at schmoozing with rural folk than Kerry is.

[Zan_of_Texas]

117. "we don't need all the southern states"

That is lucky, because I'm pretty sure Texas, Florida and Georgia are already fixed. Voting machines that spit out just the answer you want, if you want Rs.

So, that's probably 3 of the biggest southern states. Out of play. Unless we get those machines retrofitted with paper receipts, and randomly count those alongside the electronic bullsh*t.

Having half of my parentage from the far North, and half from the deep South, and having spent half my life in the North, now half in the South, I can say that yeah, the South is complex. And that yeah, the Republican party has cleverly used racism to flip lots of white Southerners to its party.

But geez, this election isn't about health care. Or Social Security. Or tax cuts. Or race. Or the Civil War.

This election is about unseating the worst president in our lifetimes, a man whose handlers feel no compunctions to shred the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, no compunctions to tear up treaties that were already signed, no compunctions to sell the commons to the lowest corporate bidder, no compunctions to go AWOL then later call a Vietnam vet triple amputee Senator "unpatriotic," no compunctions to destroy our reservoir of international goodwill and replace it with fear, anger, and disdain. No compunctions to send our kids to a Mideast quagmire, for what? Lies upon lies upon lies.

[misanthrope]

108. Great post...

...insightful, thoughtful, reflective, and honest.

[mlawson]

89. Winning people over by condescending to them????

Yeah, works every time!! :eyes:

Well, if Dean wants to try something as insulting and foolish as that, perhaps he should begin in NH, OH, IN, MN, PA, and other NE states who vote repuke. I have a Dem gov and a Dem senator myself, and look where I live!

[Classical_Liberal]

93. I think Southerners can distinguish between crititcizing republicans

and criticizing them. Are you implying Southerners are dumb?

[tnlefty]

97. This may not interest you, but Bredesen ain't from 'roun' heya

He campaigned pretty straight up and he beat out the good ol' nutjob he was running against. Granted, Bredesen had established himself here, but he still doesn't sound like us. I truly think that part of Dean's appeal is that he continues to state that it's time for * to tell the truth. Clearly state that No Child Left Behind is an unfunded mandate and while your kid doesn't have a textbook for math class, the wealthiest received a huge tax cut. Costs of the invasion are huge, but there's no education, health care, etc. money.

Plain talk is easily understood, and no waffling.

[misanthrope]

101. I think...

...it's a moot point. Any Democratic presidential candidate who focuses more than the slightest modicum of resources to the South is wasting their time and energy. Other than in the most local of races (and even that is starting to change), the American South is firm GOP territory and will likely stratify into that pattern for a long while. Unfortunately, due to our "winner take all" system, this diminishes the Democratic presidential votes south of the Mason-Dixon.

[misanthrope]

112. And another thing...

...the South was long since headed down the trail Dean describes before they started electing Republicans. And, regardless of whether the South had realigned over the last forty years or not, those problems would still haunt the South.

Why?

Because most of those problems begin at a local level, transcend mere political arenas, and only get worse as you move up the ladder. Regardless of whether you draw a pack mule or a pachyderm on a piece of rotten fruit, it still tastes just as bad.

[Bake]

106. I hate to say it but Dean just lost my vote.

We need a real UNITER, not another DIVIDER. And I'm sorry, but people like Beacho get me really pissed off. If that's what Dean is about, fuck him. I respect Keph, and a few other of the Deanies, but at the moment he's down there with Lieberman. I'd have a damn hard time even holding my nose to vote for him.

And it's not that I hate all northeasterners. I've been leaning toward Kerry, although not totally convinced, and that's not cast in stone at this point.

Bake

[charlie]

109. So you don't go away mad at Dean

If you look at the Dean quote in post #82:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=128&topic_id=635&mesg_id=635#2221

he's talking specifically to Southerners who have voted Republican about why they should switch.

There's nothing divisive about it, in fact he addresses the divide and conquer tactics used by Republicans.

Of course, I'm sure you have plenty of good reasons not to vote for Dean, I'm not trying to convince you to do otherwise. But I'd hate to see a "Dean is disdainful of Southerners" meme get out of hand because of a misunderstanding.

[Solly Mack]

114. I'm from the south

Dean spoke true...southerners who vote republican have brought their state's mess on themselves....and others. They have harmed America as a whole with their republican votes as well.

Not offended in the least. Been saying the exact same thing for years.

As for Edward being "one of us"..well..uh...whatever that means.
Liebermans's armband religion offends me and in no way endears him to me.

[mlawson]

118. It would work, if Edwards or Graham used it.

They could get away with it. But not Dean or Kerry, for obvious reasons.