Holy Crap! Wingnuts Converting to Catholicism

[UTUSN]

This morning on the Don ANUS show, Laura INGRAHAM modestly, throwaway style, mentioned she had converted to Catholicism. Her whole tone lately has been slightly more toned down when she's been on KURTZ and others. In Googling to see if there was more info on her motivations, what turns up but a Washington Whispers from last month about Robert BORK converting. What are the wingnuts up to? Excuse my cynicism, but their history of foul deeds doesn't allow for much charity. Are they using the vast machinery of the Church in a Trojan Horse way, a ready made machine to take over? Revitalizing a p.r. weakened vehicle?

(Will these threads be lost when we return to the regular forum?)

******QUOTE*****
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/politics/whispers/whispwebarch.htm
7/22/03
Judge Bork, baptized at 76
It may be a little late to start for most, but Robert Bork, the former Supreme Court nominee who has written books decrying the decline of Western culture, has just been baptized. Rev. C. John McCloskey, who represents the conservative and activist Opus Dei arm of the Roman Catholic Church and oversaw the baptism, said, "I can confirm that he was received in the Catholic Church."

Bork, a scholar with the conservative American Enterprise Institute, was raised a Protestant and had called himself a "generic Protestant." He was known more for his conservative legal views, which some Democrats used to shoot down his court nomination during the Reagan administration.

In a brief interview, he said that years of "conversations and reading" led him to baptism at McCloskey's small Catholic Information Center chapel on K Street near the White House. "There's more to talk about than you can put in a brief story." He called himself a regular Catholic who attends Sunday mass, not an Opus Dei member.

He said talks with and recommendations from the priest, as well as attending church with his wife, Mary Ellen Bork, a former nun, helped pave the way to the ceremony.

EDITED BY ADMIN: COPYRIGHT

– With David LaGesse
*****UNQUOTE****

[hedda_foil]

1. OPUS DEI

Wingnut Catholicism.

[Az]

5. Was just going to mention them

Truly creepy org.

[northernsoul]

8. here's some info on Opus Dei

Here's a nightmarish account of the cult-like indoctrination techniques of OD:

http://www.odan.org/true_clasen.htm

But it was a personal family crisis that made me realize to what extremes Opus Dei would go to control the emotions of numeraries. One Saturday night, I got a phone call from my mother, who told me that my sister was in the hospital due to an unfortunate accident. I wanted to rush to her side. I ran to find the director and tell her of the crisis. Showing absolutely no emotion, she told me that I would have to wait for Maria to finish her dinner and then she would drive me there. We were not allowed to visit our families without a chaperone. I had to wait for her to finish her dinner and her social cup of coffee. I thought it was very strange that no one else shared my sense of urgency and emotion. I returned that night to Bayridge, and was required to attend an all-day retreat on Sunday. At 4:00 pm, I returned to the hospital, but once again slept at Bayridge. On Monday morning, my aunt called me while I was working. She was quite upset. In a stern voice, she told me that my mother needed me now, and that I had better come home. At that very moment on the telephone with my aunt, I "snapped" out of their mind control. I went upstairs to pack my suitcase and I knew that I would never return.

Even after I did walk out the door, that was not the end of my experience with Opus Dei and their attempts to control my life. After a couple of days, the director called me and asked when I would be returning. I said that I was not. She tried to convince me to return to the center, by saying "Opus Dei is your real family." For four months after I left, I was harassed by members of Opus Dei. Maria actually came to my place of work. When I told her I was busy and on my way to a business meeting, she followed me on the subway, all the while talking at me about how if I did not come back, I would go to hell. And Theresa kept calling to set up times when we could meet to make sure I was still living "the spirit of Opus Dei." Finally, they gave up on me.

[starroute]

47. Opus Dei is not just wingnut -- it's actively fascist

Opus Dei is not an American organization. It was founded in the 1930's by a Spanish fascist and its greatest political strength is outside the US. For example, all the leaders of the abortive Venezuelan coup a year ago were said to be members.

Within the US, Opus Dei is not as able to be openly fascist, but it is associated with the most conservative strain in US politics. Justices Scalia and Thomas are said to belong to Opus Dei, as well as Louis Freeh.

There are also many prominent Catholic conservatives who are admirers of Opus Dei although they deny being active members. Here are a couple of snippets I saved a while back (but no longer have the sources for):

". . . the already Catholic-led Heritage Foundation, National Empowerment Television, and Free Congress Foundation. These have been promoting right-wing Vatican ideology in the American political sphere ever since Paul Weyrich, deacon in the Catholic church, founded them and turned over the leadership of National Empowerment Television to William Bennett of the right-wing Catholic Campaign for America."

"In another article written by Santorum himself, he praises 'ecclesial lay movements such as Opus Dei, the Neocatechumenate, Focolare, Regnum Christi, Communion and Liberation.' Santorum is also a member of an ultratraditionalist Catholic church that follows the pre-Vatican II practice of conducting the Mass only in Latin and which once included the spy and Opus Dei member Robert Hanssen as a member."

[KamaAina]

62. Thomas converted to Catholicism *just so he could join Opus Dei*

Justices Scalia and Thomas are said to belong to Opus Dei,

Yikes!

Meanwhile, the Opus Dei world HQ in NYC's Murray Hill was designed with separate entrances for men and women. And this group plays a pivotal role in our society... :scared:

[IndianaGreen]

68. Former FBI counter-intelligence agent and ex-spy, Robert Hanssen

was also Opus Dei.

[meow2u3]

48. You took the words right off my keyboard :)

BTW, it's not OPUS DEI; it's OPUS DIABOLI--THE WORK OF THE DEVIL!!! :evilfrown:

Opus Dei is not just wingnut Catholocism; it's a cult which not only demands absolute conformity to fascism under the guise of Catholicism, they demand that members worship the founder of the cult, and its current leaders as if they were God--not God Himself! And don't let anyone tell you any different.

[Gman]

2. I strongly suspect that Opus Dei

used their contacts in the Vatican to get the Vatican to come out strongly against gay marriage.

This pisses the hell out of me as a Catholic because the men running the Vatican are getting theirselves squarely into the middle of a political fight. If the Vatican came out with the same pronouncements on the Death Penalty and social justice as it has on gay marriage and support for abortion I might could take it as a serious theological position. Unfortunately, it's just politics as usual both from the right wing and from the Catholic Church which has a very long history of selective theology.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

3. Opus Dei is the Taliban like cult in the RCC..google it "Opus Dei"

:scared:....Scalia, Thomas, Hannity, O'Rielly, Keyes, and many wingnuts belong..
http://www.americamagazine.org/articles/martin-opusdei.cfm

http://www.odan.org/index.htm

http://www.mond.at/opus.dei/

[aquart]

36. So how do the wingnut Protestants feel about Opus Dei?

[JohnKleeb]

53. not sure but I bet they get along

[demnan]

4. I don't think it's a surprise

with the fact that the Catholic Church is very much more conservative than many of the Protestant churches, it doesn't surprise me. Take for example the tolerant stance of some faiths on gays, abortion, divorce and separation of church and state. These faiths are at odds with their own adherents (Take Bush and the Methodist church, for instance) if their adherents are very far to the right.

However on the other hand, many Catholics themselves are very liberal, but I sense that the liberal grow increasingly more frustrated with the style of their faith.

[bloom]

6. I probably don't know, but the Catholic Church is the only one

I probably don't know, but the Catholic Church is the only one that comes to mind as far as being strict about the idea that life begins at fertilzation and thereby excludes even birth control pills and IUD's as birth control methods. As they believe that an abortion has occurred even if implantation has not.

[alfredo]

7. Maybe the Republicans want to do to the Catholic church

that they did with the Baptist.

[Lars39]

46. Except the Southern Baptist were taken over from the top down.

Opus dei would seem to work from the inside up.

[DemLikr]

9. Insane wingnuts and insane religious fascists...A PERFECT MATCH!

This doesn't surprise me at all.

It makes sense that the rigid medieval thinking of the Catholic hierarchy would appeal to Bork, Ingraham, and the like.

They all deserve each other.

[The Backlash Cometh]

10. I hate to break it to Ingram, but in reference to Catholicism...

...been there, done that. The church is in turmoil. We would all be better off if it split in two and the staunch Scalia types can keep the pope and the Vatican. The rest of us will follow Christ.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

11. There is also a liberal and tolerant breed of Catholicism

I grew up in the 'Liberation Theology' age in the Catholic church (70s and 80s). Many of the nuns and priests that I met were the farthest thing from wingnuts. Many had been to Latin America and worked with the poor. The religion classes that I attended taught tolerance. There were always those hard right Catholics, but they were in the minority. I guess I had a vastly different experience than many, but please do not pigeonhole all Catholics. Most of the ones I know are pro-choice and 'live-and-let-live' about homosexuality.

[bloom]

19. Oh, I know quite a few liberal Catholics

It seems like a totally different deal than the pope and the anti-birth-control thing. I attend a quaker meeting and it's the same way - some quaker groups are VERY conservative and some are VERY liberal. There is a way to denote which part of the Quaker organization one ascribes, to however (Friends United Meeting or Friends General Conference or Evangelical Friends International). A meeting is usually with one or the other. Catholic churches all seem to say they follow the pope, however, whether they really do or not.

There was another discussion about this recently where someone said that people should follow EVERYTHING a group said or get out of the group. I actually like to have differently defined groups or denominations so that a person can find one to more or less suit them. Otherwise - it is rather wierd if the group says no drinking or dancing, or smoking (the church my husband grew up in) and everyone does it anyway.

Are there any liberal Catholic groups that say - we believe in birth-control, we don't necessarily believe in the 'virgin birth', we're OK with various sexual preferences, etc. What I am asking is - do the groups have a name or do they simply quietly believe what they want?

[UTUSN]

20. Mostly It's Do-Your-Own-Thing While Maintaining

outward compliance. See #18.

[bloom]

23. Recently there was an article on Mel Gibson

something about his being a "Traditionalist" Catholic. Going back to pre-Vatican II. It surprised me because I had never heard of different types of Catholic groups like that.

[newyawker99]

69. UTUSN

Per DU copyright rules
please post only 4
paragraphs from
the news source.


Thank you.


NYer99
DU Moderator

[jagguy]

12. I find this thread really interesting

It surprizes me that the RCC is thought of as anything but liberal.

They're anti-capital punishment
They're anti-war
They're pro-aid the needy
They're pro-peace love and understanding

They are a Christian church and as such have to object to divorce, homosexuality, adultry etc. Say what you want, it's in scripture, they have no choice. I actually admire them for sticking to their guns on this at the risk of losing their flock. If you're a religeon then you don't go changing the rules just to suit the drift of the day.

Look at Ireland, a Catholic country, they are among the world leaders in charitable efforts outside their shores and generally liberal in every other way.

I don't think its fair or right to take issue with opinions that are based on the creed of a people. Its part of who they are and what they seek to be. Its perhaps the real meaning of seperation of church and state.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

14. I almost never agree with you, jagguy, but

you have a point. I am often taken aback by the anti-Catholicism on this board. There is a lot wrong with the Catholic Church but that is true of every organized religion. The kind of fire and brimstone intolerance that is present in evangelical christianity is definitely lacking in Catholicism.

[jagguy]

16. well hallelulia !

ain't it amazing how God can bring folks together !

Shoot, if everyone agreed all the time things would be pretty boring !

[SoCalDem]

26. Not so much "anti-catholic" as anti ANY grossly organized

"religion".. That;s what I see mostly here.. As someone who was raised a Catholic, I bailed as soon as I became an adult.. I do not "hate" the church..I just resent having a bunch of old never-married men calling all the shots...and why?? "just because".. not a good enough answer for me..:)

In my mind, when any one group gains "power" over another group's thinking, we are all headed for trouble..

I have friends that I have known for 20 years, and i could not tell you WHAT religion they are.. I just don't care.. If they are raving fundies who sing in tongues to rattlesnakes on Sunday, I could not care less as long as they are "normal" in their everyday lives and do not impose their ways on others..

Keep religion where it belongs.. In your hearts and in your place of worship..

Keep it out of OUR government, and OUR schools and OUR businesses..

I (and probably most of the naysayers here) do NOT hate any religious group.. Just keep it where it belongs :)

[ElsewheresDaughter]

15. jagguy you are 100% correct re: the catholic chruch and good works

[UTUSN]

18. The Church Has a DUAL Modern Tradition

and this was not a Church-bashing thread. The parts being negative have been aimed at the wingnutism of Opus Dei.

I have posted many, many times that the Church's modern history has been very Liberal and towards social justice-----------but that in the recent past, the hierarchy (as opposed to the laity) has boiled EVERYTHING down to the single-issue of being anti-choice---------with the spectacle of the Church's sharing SCORES of policy positions with the Dem Party, but ACTIVELY WORKING AGAINST Dems based on anti-choice.

I distinctly remember the scary-looking nun on EWTN BLATANTLY propagandizing against GORE during Campaign 2000.

Yes, there are lots of lapsed Caths who participate sporadically with Church attendance, who UNFAILINGLY get their kids baptized and confirmed, AND who use birth control, etc., etc.

[jagguy]

25. I just can't blame them for doing what they think is right

and realistically back then, Abortion was the ONLY issue that had a basis that the RCC had a distinct view of. Taxes, defense etc are just not expressly about morals.

Look like this time around we want to add Gay marriage and they'll have to object to that as well.

I'm reminded of the expression "you can't legislate morality". Some things simply don't belong in the political arena.

[UTUSN]

41. "doing what they think is right"

We grant others that PRESUMPTION through our (small-L)liberal generosity. That is, usually, when somebody claims something on the basis of religion, it's taken off the table for being questioned. But if agendas are being implemented through secular politics, we have a right to question.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

24. They may be "liberal" on justice issues....

but are far from it on most women's and social issues.

I admire the Catholic folks who do the good works for justice. But as a woman who has sex outside of marriage (and enjoys it), uses a type of birth control considered to be an abortifacient, has no intention of procreating, sees nothing sinful with the way her gay & lesbian friends make love, thinks celibacy of the priesthood is insane, and believes that the Catholicism isn't the "One True Religion", the RRC is a conservative organization which doesn't offer much for me.

[jagguy]

27. I guess it doesn't

And I guess that lets out all other Judeo-Christian ones as well.

Got a lot of emphasis on sex in your life. Hope there are some other more substancial things to go along with it. None of my business of course but you did bring it up.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

38. As a woman who grew up in the Catholic faith...

the fact that I had a vagina instead of a dick (like you?) made me a target for the church and it's teachings that a man will NEVER know.

The Catholic Church is the one who made it all about my sex, get it?

[jagguy]

44. not really

as I'm a man it seems that I'll NEVER know.

If you're suggesting that they thought it was OK for boys to copulate at will with "sluts" then I'd have to say that you had a pretty screwed up priest.

If its anything darker than that then you may have grounds for suit !

[Hell Hath No Fury]

50. What I am suggesting is this...

Were you told that your sex (and sexuality) is responsible for the expulsion from The Garden?

Were you told that you bleed each month as a punishment for leading Adam estray?

Were you told that your place in a marital relationship is that of a subordinate?

Were you told that your primary function as a human on this planet was that of an incubator?

Were you discouraged from seeking a life outside of a marriage and home?

Were you told that your sex would never have a serious, voting role in Church decisions or the formation of doctrine?

Were you given the narrow sexual option of being a Whore or a Madonna?

Were you told that should you become pregnant and your life become endangered you have no option to save it?

All this was taught me post-Vatican II in a church/school in San Francisco. And there are more than a few conservative Catholics (including most in the Vatican) who still believe all of the above and more.

[Tinoire]

56. Oh yuck!

Sometimes I am so glad I wasn't formed in the American Catholic Church. I do believe you heard those things because some friends of mine told me the same but everytime I hear them, I'm shocked. Of course, I do recognize that I was very lucky and that the order that educated me was basically the female equivalent of the Jesuits with strong secular and theological formations.

Were you told that your sex (and sexuality) is responsible for the expulsion from The Garden? I wasn't thought this. I was thought that if anything, Adam was more responsible for the expulsion because Eve had been tricked whereas he, the one who had personally received the warning from God, knowingly went along.

Were you told that you bleed each month as a punishment for leading Adam astray? I heard the pangs of child-birth not menstruation... But also that man would toil and slave and work by the sweat of his brow so both equally punished.

Were you told that your place in a marital relationship is that of a subordinate? Hmmm... tough one... I wasn't thought this but I think this is more American flavoring than anything else. I remember being specifically thought that a man had to honor his wife as an equal and interestingly enough was duty bound to sexually satisfy her. (Yes! Liked that part!)

Were you told that your primary function as a human on this planet was that of an incubator? Won't touch that one because I think yes, in a round-about way but you put it so... succintly! But I was also taught about all the great Church Doctors who were women and had contributed other than incubation. Also I thought this was more due to physiology than anything else... But you have a point here...

Were you discouraged from seeking a life outside of a marriage and home? Life no, sex definitely.

Were you told that your sex would never have a serious, voting role in Church decisions or the formation of doctrine? Yep though some of the female Church Doctors did have a role in the formation of doctrine. Just not a voting role like you say.

Were you given the narrow sexual option of being a Whore or a Madonna? Yep, but I understood this to apply to men as well.

Were you told that should you become pregnant and your life become endangered you have no option to save it? Yep

[jagguy]

58. thats a little harsh

Not much is scripturally accurate (which is the big problem with RCC after all). Makes you wonder how they get any nun volunteers.

Never got all that from my RCC friends, thanks for sharing !

[TahitiNut]

33. This is where the unidimensional political model fails.

Merely seeing "left" vs. "right" masks the authoritarian propensities. Who'd say that Stalinism was much 'better' than Naziism? Enforced dogma is authoritarian.

Seek ye the Political Compass. :eyes:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

34. I agree that they are consistent

[northzax]

49. indeed

so what's the attraction for people who are

a: pro-capital punishment
b: pro-war
c: pro-ait the wealthy
d: anti-peace love and understanding.

how can Laura Ingraham convert to a religion that is so diametrically opposed to everything she stands for?

the problem is not catholicism. it is with the people who currently RUN catholicism. I don't blame Iraqis for Saddam Husayn, I don't blame Catholics for the Pope, both were selected about as democratically (although in retrospect, there is little to no evidence that the Pope has ever gone on killing rampages, murdered his son-in-laws, killed thousands of people and worn a hideous mustache. so the comparison isn't really fair, but neither one exactly was elected, no?)

[jagguy]

63. as with all things

when you put in in the hands of people there is the likelyhood of things turning to shit. The popes and whole remainder of the heirarchy have routinely made a shame upon the faith.

But the faith lives on.

I can't imagine why that person would opt that way but there are a great many Catholics that don't feel the need to observe all the tenents of their faith.

[Tinoire]

55. Welcome to DU Jagguy

(since I've never spoken with you before) :toast:

Your analysis is right one. Most Catholics are Democratics for the same reasons Jews are- a strong belief in and reverence for humanism inherited from Judaism.

Thanks for your thoughtful post!

[jagguy]

59. thanks

always glad to try and find a positive way to express my faith.

[DemLikr]

70. Cherry-picking the bible...RCC has made it an art.

All the gay bishops and popes and cardinals are hysterical about the possibility that somewhere, sometime, two un-closeted gay folks might form a lasting, legally recognized union and be happy...all this based on an obscure passage in Leviticus which also forbids polyester/cotton blend fabric (now THAT would be a doctrine I could get behind!).

How concerned are these wealthy Vaticanites, living amid art and splendour; wading through their gold coins to take afternoon tea, that Christ said the wealthy are less likely to enter heaven than a camel is to pass through the eye of a needle?

Ooops...forgot about THAT one!

I don't doubt the personal faith of many Catholics. It's their cowardly insistence on hiding within a corrupt man-made institution that baffles me. God is right in front of us, all around us, we don't need old white guys in Rome to intercede.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

13. Robert Novak....

Also converted awhile ago. He has his panties in a VERY big wad when the pedophile priests issue really hit the media, claiming it was pumped up bull meant to discredit the church. As someone who spent 12 years in Catholic school I had to laugh at that -- back in the 60s we new about the pedophile priest and sisters -- the only think shocking about the media breaking the story was that it took that long to happen.

[StandWatie]

17. I think they had a good time

with that whole "You democrats just hate catholics" spiel they tried out on that federalist freak they tried to confirm.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

21. As a practicing catholic, I welcome them into the church.

I don't understand anyone who would be critical of another's faith.

[UTUSN]

28. It's Not the Faith Being Questioned

It's the wingnutism with the FEROCITY towards fellow humans. It's the does-not-compute factor. When an inconsistency irritates our rationality, it's like a grain of sand we have to smooth out with pearl.

Also, besides not questioning the faith of others, we aren't privy to what REPENTANCE and RIGHTING of MANY past wrongs done by many of these people in the pursuit of their wingnuttiness----have they done? What repentance have they done? And what might be expected of them that will be DIFFERENT to the foul wingnuttiness they have done?

This excerpt from BROCK hints at what Ms INGRAHAM has been like. Is she different now? We can't question repentance and faith, but don't you think it's legitimate to wonder what so many influential wingnuts are up to in USING the Church politically? And if RELIGIOUS DOCTRINE *is* being implemented into social activity, we have a right to question THAT.

from BROCK, Blinded by the Right, p. 197 (paper):
*********QUOTE*********
.... As with my later relationship with Laura Ingraham, Ann (COULTER) and I never had a serious conversation about politics, or anything else. Instead, we smoked, drank to excess---Ann seemed to live on nothing but chardonnay and cigarettes---and vented our anger and cruelty by hurling all manner of epithets at liberals and the disadvantaged among us. We eschewed subtlety. To Ann, my "nutty/slutty" line was a stroke of genius. Our only disagreement was over abortion: Ann called me a "baby-killer".
**********UNQUOTE********

[whoYaCallinAlib]

31. Fine, then leave their faith out of the discussion.

[UTUSN]

39. *You* Brought It Up n/t

[Hell Hath No Fury]

29. When they use it to ...

get into my uterus or say how I can have sex or whether of not I have access to birth control, then yeah, I can get critical of another's faith.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

35. I'm sure God approves of your approach to another's beliefs.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

45. I'll be sure to...

let you know when I ask Her.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

65. I wouldn't bet on it.

[knight_of_the_star]

67. I wonder what She said

Then again, maybe I should just ask Her and find out.

[Snellius]

22. Rightwing Members of Opus Dei

Robert Hanssen - FBI agent & Soviet spy, alleged to be source that Clinton sold "secrets" to the Chinese

Antonin Scalia - godfather of the Supreme Court's intervention in the 2000 Presidential election

Louis Freeh - director of the FBI, critic of Clinton who supported independent counsel investigation into the Whitewater scandal

Robert Novak - Republican columnist

Laurence Kudlow - Rightwing economic buttboy

Senator Sam Brownback - Republican Senator from Kansas

Senator Rick Santorum - Devout (corrected) Catholic with close ties to Opus Dei

[Kathy in Cambridge]

30. Interesting Aside About Louis Freeh

he set up John O'Neill, the FBI agent who was getting close to finding Al Qaeda. Freeh got him fired for an alleged security gaffe and was on his tail from the time he took driectorship. Ironically, O'Neill took a job as head of security of the WTC, and perished on 9-11.

It's funny that Bush allies are part of Opus Dei.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

37. marvin bush corp. "Securacom" had security contract WTC & UA on 911

[UTUSN]

40. Funny Shrub Allies:

Opus Dei, Protestant fundies, NeoCons.

[Snellius]

42. Are you suggesting:?

Opus Dei -> Scalia -> Freeh -> Hanssen -> LIHOP?

[ElsewheresDaughter]

32. Rick Santorum is a devout Catholic

Deal Hudson : Rick Santorum Is Right
... And now it seems the latest victim is Senator Rick Santorum from Pennsylvania.
Sen. Santorum, a devout Catholic with a strong pro-family voting record, has ...
www.catholicity.com/commentary/hudson/santorum.html

[bloom]

43. RE: religious goups affecting political policy

That is the subject. Sometimes people insinuate that people should not be discussing others religions. But when it does affect politics - and all of our rights, it is up for discussion.

The Catholic church seems to be more influential than a lot of churches - the Pope and his announcements often in the news. And if there are "wing-nut" groups, "tradionalist" factions springing up, gaining popularity (movies being made) - well that does set off some alarms.

[CBHagman]

51. Don't much like Bork's grasp of theology

Does he think sins aren't forgiven if you get baptized at 16?

Seriously, though, I find the extremist Catholic element of the story more than a bit worrying. I should add that I'm Catholic and have had some experiences with the more extreme conservative groups.

I should note here that Opus Dei is, as far as anyone knows, a very small group and a very insular group. They do not answer to the local bishop but to someone of their own organization.

[JohnKleeb]

52. this sure is aint the catholic church I was baptized in to

[Merlin]

54. Good Christ!!!

Heaven help Catholicism in America. First the sex scandals. Now these.

Thankfully, most of these people are old farts. As Bill Cosby would say, "They're trying to get into heaven now."

[Liberator_Rev]

57. Is Catholic Hierarchy moving Left? or Right?

( from http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/95nov/warring/warring.htm) :
In 1993, " the archdiocese of New York, under Cardinal John O'Connor's leadership, in an unusual demonstration of Catholic-evangelical cooperation, distributed hundreds of thousands of Christian Coalition voters' guides in Catholic parishes just before the school-board elections. Then, in March (of 1994), a group of forty evangelical and Roman Catholic leaders issued a public statement, "Evangelicals and Catholics Together: The Christian Mission in the Third Millennium." <http://saturn.colorado.edu:8080/Christian/EvangAndCath.html> The document was initiated by Father Richard John Neuhaus, a neoconservative writer who had joined the Catholic Church after serving for many years as a Lutheran pastor, and the former White House aide Charles Colson <http://wxweb.msu.edu/~zik/colson.html>, now a widely read evangelical columnist. Pat Robertson was one of the signers.

Are the DU Catholics going to succeed in moving the church in OUR direction? Or are all the Ultra Right Wingnuts joining the Catholic Church going to succeed in moving it in THEIR direction?

[robbedvoter]

60. Will they became anti-war too? The Pope is!

And, what will Bob Jones say?

[NashVegas]

61. I Have Always Enjoyed Mythology

"If you get baptized at my age, all of your sins are forgiven. And that's very helpful."

Other than that, why you think of Opus Dei, what is it about these secret societies (oooh, you're SO SPECIAL!!!) that draws these quacks like flies on shit?

[Classical_Liberal]

64. Robert Bork's conversion is old news.

. The wingnuts convert to all sorts of religions, within the christian framework.

[flyingfish]

66. The Catholic Church is very conservative on some issues, very liberal

on others.
Just read the Catholic Church's views on gun control, international arms control, the environment, workers' rights/unions, taxes, and a myriad of other social/economic issues.
If anyone would mimic the wording of the Church's stance on these issues without mentioning it is the Church's position, wingnuts would go off on you, saying how "liberal" you are.

Again, the Catholic Church itself is neither conservative or liberal.
It really depends on the issue.

Issues of sexuality, tends to be VERY conservative.
Social and economic issues, VERY liberal.

Perhaps that is why people cannot really label the Catholic Church "conservative" or "liberal".

[DagmarK]

71. Two reasons: 1. CC is RICH beyond belief (land, gold) and 2. latin Amer.

Is there any other reason to infiltrate and take over any organization: MONEY, LAND, CONTROL over a billion people???


Oh, maybe there is a 3rd: access to altar boys?