Whopper of the Week: Howard Dean

[Bombtrack]

http://slate.msn.com/id/2086804/

Whopper of the Week: Howard Dean
"Oh, that statement about raising the retirement age …"
By Timothy Noah
Posted Friday, August 8, 2003, at 10:16 AM PT

<SNIP>

"Sen. Bob Packwood (R-Ore.): I've said many times that I think we should raise the retirement age about the year 2015—raise it by that time to about age 70.

<…>

"Howard Dean: I am very pleased to hear Bob Packwood because I absolutely agree we need to reduce the—I mean, to increase the retirement age. There will be cuts and losses of some benefits, but I believe that Sen. Packwood is on exactly the right track."

—CNN's Crossfire, Feb. 28, 1995

"The way to balance the budget, Dean said, is for Congress to cut Social Security, move the retirement age to 70, cut defense, Medicare and veterans pensions, while the states cut almost everything else. 'It would be tough but we could do it,' he said."

—News story on a breakfast meeting Dean held with reporters by Miles Benson, Newhouse News Service, March 3, 1995

<SNIP>

Discussion. Dean's Clinton-esque rhetorical construction, "nor do I favor ," arguably signals a change of mind since he "entertained" raising it to 68 a few weeks earlier. But in the context of the accusation from Kucinich, it's clearly meant to mislead. The statement, "I have never favored Social Security retirement at the age of 70" is completely untrue.

[Maple]

1. Strange

Canada is eliminating the retirement age.

[Bombtrack]

3. Strange that all the Deanheads probably won't care

that he lied

[madfloridian]

20. Using the term Deanheads is derogatory in nature.

n/t

[Trajan]

63. How revolting ....

You dont intend to stay long, I guess ...

[SuffragetteSal]

42. How does that work?

You never retire or they can retire when they want? Very curious...

[AWD]

2. Yet another attack on Dean

...from Bombtrack.

Would you implode if you didn't go a day without attacking Dean???

[Bombtrack]

4. These are the facts

I'm not going to lie and say I like Dean, but this is undismissable

[trogdor]

16. The truth is...

something will have to be done about SS. The best the current regime seems to be able to come up with is some lamebrained privatization scheme. Bottom line, the longer we put it doing something, the more painful it will be, and we will have already lost four years by the time we replace *. So, what will it be, half a loaf, or nothing at all? If you know more than I do, I'd love to hear it.

Believe me, I don't like it any more than you do.

[pansypoo53219]

35. wanna fix SS?

eliminate the cap on fica deductions, the rich should pay the same % as the poor do, that or its means testin time

[DemBones DemBones]

43. Exactly! The rich draw larger benefit checks as well so why should

they have some income exempt? Kucinich plans to remove the cap on income to fund Social Security -- and he'll move the retirement age back to 65. Raising the retirement age is particularly unfair to blacks and other minorities who have shorter expected lifespans. Blacks, as a group, have historically paid more in to SS than they've gotten out. I think Dean is now supporting removing the cap but he was for raising retirement age in 1995 and just recently (June?) told Tim Russert on "Meet the Press" that he'd "entertain the idea" of raising the retirement age.

[ryharrin]

45. He plans on doing that.

nt

[Mairead]

74. The *real* truth is

that SS is completely okay til '42, and that, as Kucinich has pointed out, it has actually gained a year or 2 without anyone intervening at all. Nobody has demonstrated that the right-wing scaremongering has any basis in fact at all.

We also know that every single person making a mil or more in salary per year --and that's a lot of people in our effed-up Capitalist paradise-- has FICA taken out of only their January paycheck. Bang. a one-time payment of $6600 if an employee, or $13200 if they're unincorporated, and that's it, they're done for the year. They probably spend more than 6600 on lunches through the year.

And in addition we know that it is only wages and salary that are subject to FICA, not the kinds of income that the wealthy elites have in abundance.

It's being bandied about that Dean has said he'd remove the cap altogether, and I gave him credit for that. But then I read the transcript that DemBones posted and what he said on that occasion was something like 'let it rise' or 'let it float' (I don't quite remember--but it was definitely not 'remove it'). So what exactly is Dean's current position? Can anyone post a pointer, if his position is not the one in that transcript?

[ChemEng]

95. From an accounting point of view, maybe....

But the fact of the matter is that the federal government will need to borrow money much sooner than 2045 to pay SS recipients. In other words, SS has loaned its surpluses over the years to the goverment, which then spent it!!! It's not there anymore!! So when SS comes calling on the federal government, the government will need to either raise taxes or print money.

The real solution is to eliminate SS as a separate entity, and consolidate its budget with the rest of the federal government. Then we can use progressive taxation to solve the deficit problem for both SS and the rest of the government budget.

[pinerow]

91. Has any one bothered to notice when these comments were

made.

Give a guy a break for changing his mind over the years; I pity anyone who has not had the courage to change his\her mind ove a period of eight years.

Sheesh

:beer:

[Nicholas_J]

99. Since, as Kucinich said

The Social Security Trust Fund is completely SOLVENT until the year 2041, as long as it is not raided to give tax cuts, I suggest frying bigger fish for the time being. Eventually, there will need to be adjustments, perhaps, as as been stated for the last fifty years, taking the TOP off of the payroll tax will fix it all. But since we have about 40 years to deal with it, and are in the middle of a massive fiscal crisis, it might be better to deal with the snake that has already bitten you, than worry about running into on further up the trail.

[niceypoo]

88. If you follow BombTracks posts he is obsessed with Dean

and reminds me of the GOP in the way they reacted to CLinton. a "Gate keeper" This "gate", that "Gate", obsessing over every little fart in a hurricane. Desperate for something, ANYTHING on dean. Perhaps he should start a Dean fan club at www.freerepublic.com

[shance]

103. Whopper of the WEEK? These comments are EIGHT YEARS OLD.

If you're are going to post an attack on a candidate, the least you could do is have something more up to date. This is not worthy of a post and certainly not worthy of what it insinuates.

Alright so Dean was inconsistent in 1995. So why don't we then weigh this one inconsistency against all the inconsistencies coming from the Bush Administration?

And how many of us have at one point said one thing and then said another? If there was a consistent PATTERN here, then you would have something with which perhaps to post a thread about.

I am really why there are those of you who would rather pick on Howard Dean versus focus on all the violations coming from the White House?

Threads like this do nothing but create division. If you are a Democrat, it would be better to focus on the bigger picture.

[Jackson4Gore]

5. How is it bashing when it is the truth?

[tedoll78]

6. I forgive him.

One slip-up isn't going to cost my vote, especially since he's taken steps to clarify his position. You only WISH I were that weak a supporter. Heck, I'm even going to send him MORE money. And I bet that I'm not the only one who feels this way.


*yawn*

[AWD]

7. Me too

I'm giving him 100 dollars on Saturday at a fundraiser...will be anding it to him directly.

That must really burn the haters up....

[Rose Siding]

8. Here's what Dean said about it-

Dean Says He Misspoke on Social Security
snip>
Dean acknowledged that he had called for such an increase when the country was faced with a deficit in 1995, but said he no longer thinks it is necessary. He said former President Clinton set an example of balancing the budget without raising the retirement age.

"Clinton proved that if you run a decent economy and have a budget surplus and some jobs, then you don't need to raise the age to extend the life of Social Security," Dean said in a telephone interview after The Associated Press questioned conflicting statements he has made on the issue.
http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-dean-social-security,0,2509226.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines

Weird how Noah uses "Clintonesque" like it's a bad thing.

[Kanola]

9. I am starting to get concerned that all those who are bashing Dean

would rather support Shrub 43 in the election. I may not agree with other candidates, but I do not make a point to make them appear unelectable.I can at least say even if Dean is my first choice that I will support another nominated candidate. I do not sense this from several DU'ers and this a concern. This kind of bashing Dean is exactly what Rove wishes for. Congrats.

[JohnKleeb]

10. I havent been Dean bashing but I have agreed with some

of the criticism havent heard one say they would rather support GWB, and I would NOT.

[TruthIsAll]

15. Do you really believe that a disruptor would say he'd vote for Bush?

That would be suicide here. Repukes are dumb, but not THAT dumb. But we can generally spot them anyway.

And I think they know that we know that they know that we know they are Repukes.

Clear?

[JohnKleeb]

18. I get ya

but let me repeat myself I havent seen the Dean critics I know and myself say that.

[geomon]

69. Oh really....??

I am planning on voting for Bush. (if there is an election) an dI am NOT a rebulican although I am registered as one.

[Speed8098]

71. Your honesty is refreshing, but.....

Would you please enlighten the rest of us?

Why on earth would you vote for this divider? The man has a brain the size of a pea. He has cast this country into a downward spiral that will take decades to repair.

Are you in the top 1% of earners in this country? If not, you should rethink your position.

Please take a moment and tell us what Bush has done for the average worker. Tell us why we went to war with Iraq. Tell us why Ken Lay is living large in the Bahamas when he should be looking through bars.
Also, tell us why bush fought so hard to quash an investigation on 9/11.

Tell us please, why Clinton was impeached for lying about a blowjob and Bush get's a pass for lies that caused the death of so many people?

Once we finish with these few, we'll explore the rest of his screw-ups.

So please, enlighten us.

[MODemocrat]

102. Two out of three says that you are a republican

You voted for Bush and you are registered as a republican. You don't have to be embarrased, we all have our weaknesses.

[AWD]

12. I agree

Makes you wonder, doesn't it???

I suppose some people would rather whine than actually work to get Bush removed.

Geez, I hope people don't pull quotes that I made in 1995 out of their asses...I'll end up having to explain why I said I'd never get married, the Sex Pistols would never reunite, and "Herman's Head" was the best new show in 10 years.

[acerbic]

13. Some of the rhetoric is exactly the same kind that freepshits fling

...at Clintons: Dean is "Dr. Mengele", "Dean has killed people"... has anyone yet started a "Dean body count" rant? The degree of hatred is amazing and at least with me it has exactly the opposite effect from what the haters hope...

[JohnKleeb]

14. I havent heard that at all

Ive heard Bill Frist is Mengle, I havent heard that at all Dean is a killer. I dont hate Dean, I think many people who are critical of Dean would vote for him but they dont agree with him is all. I wouldnt call myself a basher but there is a ton I disagree with him on.

[acerbic]

19. Seek and Ye Shall Find, and Thou Needst Ask No More

Ive heard Bill Frist is Mengle, I havent heard that at all Dean is a killer.

"Try an make Dr. Mengele (oops Dean) into some kind of saint over this all you want,"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=16579&mesg_id=17066&page=

"Yeah, Dean should be medicated. He killed lots of people with waste from Vermont"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=16615#16671

[JohnKleeb]

21. whoa!

sorry I didnt see that.

[sandnsea]

24. Put in context

The second one was a complete joke. The first one was a comment on Dean's support of forcing the mentally ill to take medication. It was just one of those snide little comments people sometimes make in context of the overall post. To call somebody freeperish when they're posting about civil rights for the mentally ill could probably be considered, well, you figure it out.

This crap is getting really annoying.

[JohnKleeb]

27. I dont know but I whoaed never saw ti

[acerbic]

29. "just one of those snide little comments"

...and here's just the followup and confirmation:

"I'm sure Mengele would whole heartedly support Dean's position on state enforced medical 'treatment'."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=16579&mesg_id=17086&page=

This crap is getting really annoying.

Indeed.

[sandnsea]

39. I see it so much I don't even pay attention anymore

It only bothers people when words like that attack something or somebody *they* believe in. I wouldn't be able to read a thread at all if I freaked out about every stupid ass thing somebody says on this board.

[acerbic]

41. O'Really?

It only bothers people when words like that attack something or somebody *they* believe in.

Can you provide any examples of similar attacks directed at any other candidates: calling them "Mengele"/"Hitler" type names, claiming that they've killed people etc.?

Can you?

[sandnsea]

48. Oh for pete's sake

I'm not going to waste my time hunting down threads over something so stupid. The crap I see people spew out on this board is stunning. Grow up. Dean is not god.

[acerbic]

49. Mengele/God, nothing between...

Dean is not god.

Did somebody call him that? Who, when, where? Weird... o.

[dsc]

38. So using Nazi comparisons

to lie about big and important ideas is better than doing so about small ones. That is one way to look at things I guess.

[sandnsea]

40. Hey, it's an opinion

They're entitled. And actually, forcing people to take medications is a pretty serious issue. I don't care what grand motives a person has, laws tend to end up harming people in ways never imagined when passed. Kind of like the Patriot Act, for example.

[DemBones DemBones]

46. I remember those and one was a JOKE while the other

(the Dr. Mengele reference) was about Dean being in favor of forcing people to take medication.

Some people have strong opinions and say things that may be over the top, and some make jokes that others find tasteless. That's the internet for you.

I don't think you can find anyone who seriously says Dean has killed people. (No fair choosing a poster with under 3000 posts, though, as we don't know who some of these new people are.)

[acerbic]

47. Sure, it's always a "joke"

AFTER it's got some negative attention. :eyes:

[DemBones DemBones]

52. It wasn't MY joke and you are evading the issue

of Dean's apparent support for forcing people to take psychotropic medications, an idea that is really chilling when one cares about civil liberties.

[acerbic]

53. "Evading the issue", hehe...

of Dean's apparent support for forcing people to take psychotropic medications, an idea that is really chilling when one cares about civil liberties.

I have asked the disingenuous bashers several times if they really claim that the other candidates' positions are different from Dean's on this issue: would they really NEVER support forced medication of ANYONE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES?

Guess whether there have been any answers or only blatant evasions...

[DemBones DemBones]

56. Dean spoke on this issue and exposed himself to

questioning and dissent from his position.

If Kucinich supports Dean's position (that people should be forcibly given psychotropic meds) I'll stop supporting Kucinich faster than you can say "thorazine."

[acerbic]

58. Yup, exactly that was the evasion:

Great kudos for all the others for just not saying anything on the issue... and attack Dean with twisty wording insinuating that he wants to force feed mind control chemicals to all people:

Dean's position (that people should be forcibly given psychotropic meds)

Ridiculously desperate...

[acerbic]

98. ...and BTW about Kucinich:

If Kucinich supports Dean's position (that people should be forcibly given psychotropic meds) I'll stop supporting Kucinich faster than you can say "thorazine."

In congress Kucinich has taken time to introduce a bill to ban space based mind control weapons that don't exist. Has he bothered to do anything to ban forced medication that exists in USA (not only Vermont)? Yes or no?

[Egnever]

55. And you are wildly spining the issue!

I happen to think what he said is spot on whats your argument with it?

[topdog08]

28. Actually Rove is cheering for Dean

Did you see that news story about Rove at the 4th of July parade?

Now Dean supporters are complaining about attacks from supporters of other candidates? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! Dean's entire campaign was built on criticizing other candidates!

I agree it is not a good thing, but Dean is the one who started it.

[Woodstock]

32. His "entire campaign"?

:eyes:

He started it, Mommy!!!

[Kanola]

36. Oh yeah. Rove really wants Dean to confront the "Dim one"

Give me a break. Rove's motives are so transparent that I wonder why some think he is so brilliant. Either is so clueless that Dean is a far left Liberal which he is not, or he is trying to undermine the Dean campaign because there are some real threats to Shrub 43's campaign.

Like Dean or not. (and I suspect you don't) he has run won hell of a small donar grassroots campaign. Most inside the beltway insiders and media whores don't quite know which way to spin it.

[Ardee]

83. Where are you?

You are in a political forum are you not? The purpose of this forum is to speak to the various issues and questions is it not? Do you also object to the Lieberman, Edwards, Kucinich bashing? Bah!!

[nolabels]

11. You know the real funny thing is with *'s economy, deficits and spending

on bankrupt millitary gear, Congress just might have to do that now. This little debate is starting to sound like the one that got away fish story. Thanks for the update

[madfloridian]

17. This has been covered over and over and over and over and over.

It is getting ridiculous. I counted 8 threads on this same topic. When will it be enough?

I have not heard Kucinich apologize yet for yelling. Do you think he will?

I would not have mentioned this but for all these posts.

[Woodstock]

34. That's nothing - what about the Dean is Nader threads?

At least the bashers could be a little more original. They probably have a daily checklist right next to their Dean voodoo doll:

Start thread how he is the most extreme left candidate since the human race began - Start thread on his slip on {fill in blank of something to exaggerate} - Start thread on his thinning hairline and short stature - Start thread on how he is Nader - Start thread on how much of a meanie he is - Start thread calling supporters derogatory names...

All checked, and their lives are complete.

Obviously there is nothing good to say about their candidates, since they have chosen to obsess about Dean.

Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean,... oh, how he torments them, day and night! Oh, the humanity!

[wheresthemind]

37. Its not JUST Dean!

People have said the same thing about Kucinich.

[MercutioATC]

22. 1995? Wasn't that 8 years ago?

Dean has stated his current positions. He's also said that he feels differently than he did in 1995.

...where was Kucinich on abortion a year and a half sgo?

[JohnKleeb]

23. bomb isnt a Kucinich supporter.

just keep in mind that. its ok I am not picking a fight with the Dean supporters here.

[madfloridian]

25. Frankly, I don't care who he/she is supporting.

When a topic has been covered until it is sickening, it is time to let up.

I have started hitting the alert whenever a post appears to be an attack and concerns a subject that has been covered and covered and covered.

Then the mods can sort it out.

I have seen many people have their posts deleted when they let the attacks get to them. This is not fair, the one doing the attacking should bear some responsibility.

Dean is not perfect, I am not perfect, Graham is not, Kerry is not, and neither are any of the others. I see few attacks on the others.

[JohnKleeb]

26. thats not my point

mercutio brought up Kucinich. Look I disagree with Dean on a lot, I dont hate him, I would support him if hes the nominee, I would vote but too young dontcha know.

[topdog08]

30. Dean said he had "never" supported it, not "within the last eight years"

We are not putting words in his mouth. It was a bald face lie.

[madfloridian]

31. For a response to that, go and look up the other threads on this topic.

Geez, this is getting ridiculous.

[JohnKleeb]

33. I agree that it is I dont care really

let it go I guess.

[ryharrin]

44. I'd like to see the quote from the forum.

What I remember him saying is that he never supported raising it to 70, and once supported raising it to 68, but no longer does.

[kutastha]

50. It boggles the mind...

That people will find one thing from a candidate with which they disagree and harp and harp and harp on it. If someone really wants a candidate that they 100% agree with, they might as well file papers and run themselves. It's the only way they'll be happy.

edit: misplaced comma

[tedoll78]

51. I know..

I know why people are posting stuff like this: it changes peoples minds! It works! I used to be a Kerry man, but then I heard that he eats kittens. I'm a puppy man myself, and I heard a rumor that Dean eats puppies. Well.. I researched it myself, and lo and behold - he really DOES eat puppies! That sealed the deal with me.. until he flip-flopped on social security. DK really nailed him on that one early in the forum. But then he kept screaming and screaming, so I switched to Sharpton. Sharpton is really funny! But still, someone on here said he's "unelectable," so I had doubts and now I'm back to The Puppy-Eater. I like how he rolls-up his sleeves anyway.

If you plan on sticking-around the DU2 for the next few months, be ready for a roller coaster, folks. These posts are REALLY effective at changing peoples' candidate preferences. Otherwise, they wouldn't be so numerous and popular. Right? Right?

[acerbic]

54. LOL

Funny. :-)

[govegan]

67. Think of the position which we are talking about......

President of the USA is not a figurehead position.

Any conscientious citizen would quite naturally want to have a "straight shooter," an honest individual with the highest possible integrity.

If disagreement is disaffecting don't be disconcerted.

[DemBones DemBones]

57. Anyone who wants to see the entire transcript of

"Meet the Press" from June 22, 2003, when Dean TWICE said he would "entertain" or "look at" raising the retirement age to 68, and admitted he had favored raising it to 70 (in a1995 interview) can go to my thread "Dean, Kucinich, etc.' The quotes are there but you can also follow the link to the whole transcript.

[Mairead]

64. There's no point, DB. With these guys, it's a religion.

Anyone who can claim that Vermont PIRG 'hates' Dean either has lost their grip on reality or doesn't care what they say. You can't penetrate that sort of mindset.

[tedoll78]

65. Okay,

You've convinced me! I'm changing to Kucinich! (/s)

[govegan]

59. Perhaps Dr. Dean just doesn't think very deeply about some .....

issues, or is not sure himself how he stands on them. Which is fine. Certainly he is entitled to changing his mind as well.

His own internal ambiguity likely leads to ambiguous or misleading statements. At the end of the day, he will need to work that out.

As an American physician practiced in the art of disease care, he is not likely accustomed to ascertaining the root of a problem. Treating the symptoms is easier and does not disturb the status quo. "Work two more years, then call me in the morning." Now that is an easy prescription to write, is it not?

No doubt, Dr. Dean wants to right some of the wrongs of the chimpster and his neo-con, cheap-labor fascistas. Many do.

However, American democracy is one sick puppy, a sham and a pox on the planet.

America needs more than a good bedside manner.

[acerbic]

60. A-ha...

As an American physician practiced in the art of disease care, he is not likely accustomed to ascertaining the root of a problem.

vs. e.g. who? Crystal Homeopaths? :-)

[govegan]

61. What or who is a Crystal Homeopath?

Is that some kind of stony-gazed person who fears gay people?

:-)

I would name some physicians who know about building and maintaining health, as opposed to promoting mythological traditions and cultural biases reinforced by funds from those profiting from their continuance, if I were certain that you wanted a straight answer.

One group that comes to mind is the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine.

But truly, American medical colleges rarely require physicians to know anything about nutrition. Without a solid understanding of nutrition, the maintenance or rejuvenation of good health is a dicey proposition. American medical colleges do teach how to treat the symptoms and temporarily alleviate some suffering. Now, for a broken leg that may be fine. For a damaged pancreas, clogged arteries, decaying bones, that is not so fine.

Have you been to a major medical center in this country lately? Watch out for the swinging doors going into the operating rooms, business is booming.

[acerbic]

68. Crystal Homeopathy:

http://web.onetel.net.uk/~alwyne_k/chamber/firstpage.htm

[janx]

96. !!!!

That was my first reaction too...!

[VermontDem2004]

62. Wow amazing

I suppose people aren't supposed to change their opinions about issues after 8 years.

[Mairead]

66. Sure. Between 8 years ago and last month, Dean has changed

from 70 to 68 and from 'would' to 'entertain'. Is that the sort of thing you mean?

[ima_sinnic]

70. all right, you're free to singlehandedly stop that wave

You'd think ALL Bush/PNAC-haters would be thrilled that someone in fierce opposition to him (Bush), who has wasted no words in exposing him for the naked emperor that he is, is succeeding in winning support from all the unlikely places: disgruntled Republicans, Independents, brand-new voters, apathetic hardly-ever voters. People are EXCITED, people are investing money in a political candidate for the FIRST TIME IN THEIR LIVES (I am one of them, after almost 40 years of voting), people are inspired. This in my mind makes him HIGHLY ELECTABLE.

If someone else manages to captivate voters and promise BushCo a real tussle, I will overlook that person's minor flip-flops and stumblings--and even major policy differences--and get behind him/her. I want a WINNER, especially someone I can trust not to run a private-agenda program behind closed doors.

People like OP who obsessively search for points they can assail in Dean's FEW inconsistencies remind me of the crusty ole Southerners during Civil Rights era who were in a constant state of denial about the oncoming tide of equal rights for blacks/minorities. Those who were WISE recognized it for what it was: inevitable. Bombtrack, your POSITIVE support of a candidate who can beat Bush/PNAC will accomplish that aim a whole lot better than futile denial of the reality of the voters' wishes.

[Mairead]

77. If all you want is a winner...vote for Smirk!

Me, I'm holding out for real change. Because when you're drowning, it doesn't really matter whether it's in 30 fathoms or 3000 fathoms--the only worthwhile difference is between drowning and not drowning. Anything less than that is an exercise in self-destructive self-deception.

[TheBigGuy]

72. This is just political waffling..no big deal...

Most politicians do engage in this, and in expediently changing positions.

The fact of the matter is that raising the retirement age does make sense given the increased life expectency. 65 age came from a period when people had lower life expectancys.

So yeah it should be looked at. And for me its a "plus" that Dean is williing to look at this. Im not a Dean supporter but that does demonstrate a pragmatic approach to the problem.

[Mairead]

78. No, actually it makes sense *only if people also work longer*

And by 'work longer' I don't mean being a PhD packing groceries for minimum wage at the supermarket.

Kucinich recognises this. Many people are living longer, but few are working longer because Capitalism is squeezing people out of the work force in droves. I'm qualified at a professional level in 5 different fields, have won juried awards for my work in 2 of them, and have a 99.9%ile IQ. I'm only 62 and healthy as a horse...but I'd to accept a reduced social-security pension because I can't find work in any of the 5 fields. I'm 'overqualified', you see (aka 'too old').

[DemocratSinceBirth]

73. Being Anti-Bush And Having Problems With A Dean Candidacy

are not mutually exclusive.


That's illogical.


It's really off putting to have Dean supporters question the loyalty of Democrats to the party who question Dean's policies and electability.

It's almost McCarthyesque.

[poskonig]

75. There are a *lot* of these garbage Dean threads.

Imagine rehashing Kerry's vote on Iraq over and over again, Kucinich's flip flop on abortion, or the same with Sharpton's Whitey media comments. See why Dean supporters are a little annoyed?

At least Dean apologized for his mistake.

[CWebster]

76. Oh look, another Dean-bashing thread

On the same subject.

Wonder how many threads I could astroturf on any negative PR for any of the other contenders?

Yawn.

[liberalpress]

79. Once again,

..the disruptor geomon has struck and run, getting to beat each other to death, while forgetting that the real target is George W. Bush.

*sigh*

I guess we'll never learn

[Gman]

80. It's this type stuff about Dean that makes me have concerns

about Dean being less than honest about his positions. It's, unfortunately, very *ish.

[JNelson6563]

81. and that is exactly what you are suppose

to think and say.

From the way Dean explained it the other day, he said that after watching Clinton save the economy and SS he realized that there was no need to raise the age to 70.

Can you imagine that??? A candidate who might change his views based on having watched the success of others? A candidate who is not mired in the my-decision-is-made-and-will-never-change-cause-I-know-everything mindset??

The only amusing thing in all this shrill hate-mongering toward Dean is this: Dean changed his mind regarding a fiscal policy because of what he saw played out during Clinton's admin. Yet he is being lambasted for this by some who support a guy who changed his views on abortion, a deeply-rooted-in-principle type of belief!!

And we wonder why we have no power in DC. Remarkable!

Julie

[sexybomber]

84. EXACTLY.

<rant properties="irritated, angry">

Look at the dates for the quotes. 1995. That's EIGHT YEARS AGO. A lot can change in eight years. Is it impossible to entertain the notion that Dean might have changed his mind? Why in God's name are they dredging up things people said eight years ago? That's not current, that's not useful information, that's just an effort to discredit an obviously competent and good candidate. It makes me sick, absolutely <expletive> sick. Who dredged that up, anyway? (Not the DUer who posted it, the person who posted the Whopper on Slate.com).

</rant>

[killbotfactory]

90. The other candidates "misspeak"...

They just don't own up to it.

[DemLikr]

82. How about putting all this energy into trashing George W. Bush?

Good Lord, Howard Dean is light-years superior to W, and yet, like all too many Dems here, all you can think to do is trash him and any other Dem who doesn't meet your specific standards of impossible perfection.

Spare me your microscopic analysis of Dean's rhetoric; and turn your sights to the man who is wrecking the u.s....W.

[SEAburb]

85. I guess Dean doesn't care if he gets the 60 to 65 voters

I'm sure Bush's campaign team wouldn't use this to scare the hell out of 60 to 65 yr old voters. We all know the 18 to 30 yr old voters are the largest voting group in the country, so Dean probably isn't worried.

Great information Bombtrack, thanks for posting it. Isn't it funny how posting facts about a candidate is called bashing, by some.

[niceypoo]

86. People in here who constantly trash dean

are A: Bush Lite
and
B: Freeper Plants

They sound EXACTLY like republicans in their picking apart every little sentence Dean makes then imposing their wishful thinking on it.

[Touchdown]

87. Ok. I've made up my mind!

Just out of spite, I have decided to support Howard Dean!

I have read, and lurked in the Edwards, Kucinich, Graham, Clark, and Kerry threads, and the negative posts about those guys are nothing compared to the numerous Dean bashing threads I see daily.

To take an 8 year old statement, apply it to some Sunday shout show statement of non-committal (and that's ALL it was), is just beyond petty.

I like Graham, and I REALLY like Kucinich...but if you can have your principles, then so can I. I suffered through 8 years of Republican lies, innuendo, excessive spinning and smears of a President that I really liked (and the first one I voted for who ACTUALLY WON), and refuse to accept this mountain out of a molehill crap from other Democrats.

I don't care what the candidates say about each other, that's what they're supposed to do in a primary, but we shouldn't be engaging in this kind of petty cannibalism ourselves.

[SEAburb]

92. this is a real issue and deserve to be discussed

Dean is running the presidency and like every candidate is under a microscope. It should bother everyone that Dean misrepresented the truth at the AFL-CIO forum. It says a lot about Dean's character. Why didn't he say he has changed his position on the issue. Who knows where he stands on the issue now, it's not clear right now.

[tedoll78]

93. What you fail to realize..

..is that promptly after the forum he clarified his position.

When I agree with him on 95% and he slips-up on something that may matter to me by about 2%, I'm not pulling support. Indeed, he could have hidden from the topic and he could have let it grow, but he took it head-on and cut it off at its ankles. Very smart move on his part. Only those with the goal of tearing him down will continue to harp on this. If you have a preferred candidate, you might want to tell why you back that person, as opposed to why Dr Howard Dean is so evil/foolish/whatever.

[SEAburb]

100. I don't fail to realize anything about Dean

I saw the statement from his campaign PR team. Deanies are in denial about the importance of Dean's misrepresentation.

[Touchdown]

94. Well, until he comes out with an emphatic statement...

then we'll just have to continue with you folks putting words in his mouth.

I did hear him apologize last week for mistating his position, I guess that wasn't good enough though, was it?:eyes:

Maybe he should just stonewall like Chimpy, so the media wouldn't cover it, and we won't be able to play the "GOTCHA" game.

[dansolo]

101. Kucinich misrepresented the truth about NAFTA

I don't see people calling him on it. Kucinich said that "I'm here to tell you that my first act in office will be to cancel NAFTA." Kucinich is claiming that he is going to do somehting that he has no authority to do, and this was to the same exact group. Why aren't the Kucinich supporters acknowledge that he is just as guilty as Dean? Doesn't this say something about Kucinich's character as well? It demonstrates that he has no grasp of the authority that is granted to the President, or that he is intentionally lying about what he can do to pander to the labor crowd.

[robbedvoter]

89. Bombing DU again? I am still looking for a non-disruptive post from you

Stinkbomb after stinkbomb Clintoneque huh? One of your favorite paragraphs of this tripe? One day you'll tell us what you are FOR?

[gully]

97. Good God....He evolved like DK did on CHOICE ok???

Give it up already...
He said he 'entertained' the idea, and found after much research that it isn't prudent.

Move On oh desperate Dennis Kucinich supporter.

I like DK but this crap is a total turn off.