DU's Arnold bashers are not helping Lt. Gov. Cruz Bustamante

[IndianaGreen]

Arnold has surrounded himself with people that worked for Pete Wilson, who was a very popular moderate Republican governor.

Rush has bashed Arnold because Arnold is not a conservative! The rightwingers will rally around McClintock or Simon.

All I have been trying to say, over the cacophony of DU Arnold bashers, is that if Bustamante were to adopt the same dirty campaign style that Gray Davis was known for (and that the DU Arnold bashers are advocating), then his message will get lost in the noise and he will be tagged as another Davis and lose the election.

Let Cruz Bustamante set the tone for his campaign, with us getting in tune with it. Let the McClintock types be the ones that make assholes out of themselves with their silly Nazi analogies that will turn voters off.

One of the things that my preferred candidate for President keeps saying on the stump is that it is time for Democrats to be Democrats. Those Democrats always beat the Republicans by presenting a better message and record as the party that best represented the interests of the working men and women, and the small farmers. The traditional Democratic message always beat the Republicans. The times in which Democrats lost was always due to being off-message, or being sidetracked by an October surprise: McGovern with the Eagleton affair, Carter with the treasonous Reagan deal with Iran.

It is true that the Democratic Party lost a lot of support when Dems supported desegregation and affirmative action, but those are ethical and moral positions that Democrats should be never be embarrassed to support.

Democrats did lose support from many people for supporting programs that on their face appeared to have good goals, but that in practice were the wrong way to go about dealing with the problems they were trying to address: busing and gun control. The Republicans were successful in demagoguing and exploiting those issues, and the Democrats were too slow, and still are, in recognizing that the real issues were redlining and law enforcement.

Abortion is an issue that divides everyone regarless of political party label.

[trumad]

1. Snarf....

Arnold and Bustamante won't get the chance cause the recall's gonna fail!

[IndianaGreen]

3. The polls seem to indicate otherwise

Even before Arnold's announcement, a clear majority of Californians wanted Davis out.

The latest poll numbers look very grim for Davis:

The Time/CNN poll, released late Saturday, found that 54 percent of voters would recall the Democratic governor and 35 percent would keep him in office. Eleven percent were not sure.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/945950.asp?0cv=CA01

Davis should do us all a favor and resign at once, letting Bustamante become Governor. Davis's resignation will not stop the recall, but it will take away the momentum the Republicans had. The majority of voters will be relieved that Davis is gone, and pleased with Bustamante, and will be more likely to resist the temptation to throw the baby out with the bath water.

[Jack Rabbit]

4. I might add . . .

. . . that those figures are the worst for Davis I've seen yet. He is losing ground.

[Jack Rabbit]

2. These are very good points, IG

Let's get one point off the bat: Arnold Schwarzenegger is running for governor, not his father.

Schwarzenegger has no political track record other than stumping for candidates for whom I never voted. While neither Arianna Huffington nor Peter Camejo have ever held political office, each has a better-defined political track record than does Swarzenegger; neither Arianna or Camejo should be called a neophyte. Schwarzenegger is a neophyte.

If a seasoned politician like Gray Davis is having so much difficulty handling California's present problems that so many believe he should be removed from office before his term expires, then what makes anybody think Schwarzennegger could do better?

Those are good enough reasons not to vote for Arnold.

[tjdee]

5. I really think Arnold will win.

I don't think DU helps or not helps.

If the recall does go through, it's going to be between Arianna, Arnold, and Bustamante (in my uneducated view).

At the very best, Bustamante and Arianna will split the dem/lib vote, and Arnold wins. Unless one of the two drop out or Davis resigns, two options I don't think will be taken.

At the worst, Arnold is a well known major (well, not so much anymore) star, a liberal/moderate Republican with all the Republican money, and wins by an embarrassingly large margin. Okay, maybe not that large.

Am I wrong in my thinking? Are people assuming Californians are above that?

If Arnold does win, I think the Democratic Party needs to think long and hard about the kind of people American voters are voting for, and not get all loopy in 2004.

[IndianaGreen]

20. I think that Bustamante can win

but I also think that if idiots like Bob Mulholland or Art Torres set the tone for Bustamante's campaign, he will only succeed in alienating the independent voters that Bustamante needs.

[felix19]

6. Uhhh....

Right away you lost me. Pete Wilson was NOT a "very popular" moderate Republican governor. He is essentially a radioactive pariah today because of his instinctive and deeply insulting and divisive anti-immigrant campaign launched and continued in the face of enormous REPUBLICAN opposition. In fact, Wilson was so against so many good things and so many good people, it is a wonder he survived in office as long as he did. The very fact that he is "advising" the would be Guvernator is reason enough for millions of Californians, who might otherwise be inclined to consider Arnold's candidacy, to avoid him.

One of Arnold's campaign chiefs is the insufferable crypto-fascist bully Sean Walsh, who never missed an opportunity to hurl insult and invective when he was Wilson's press secretary. The fact that these two people are associated with Arnie's campaign shoud derail it all by itself.

I would remind you that Gray Davis's "dirty" campaign style WINS ELECTIONS. He has not lost one yet. He may not survive this one, however, what with all the keening and garment rending from Democrats who just can't stand his naughty style of electioneering and would prefer he not do it.

Message? What is the message? What would you like Davis or Cruz to communicate? That this outrageous recall campaign is the personal ego endeavor of a hand full of mega-millionaires playing nasty games with the full cooperation of the White House? Or would that be negative?

The "traditional" Democratic message always beat the Republicans in what universe? It ain't just about the message. Democrats win elections when the play rough, really rough and they have a positive message and progressive program. It's not either/or. It's got to be both.

Arnold is not a serious candidate for anything in my view, and there is no reason to treat him or his candidacy with anything but a full on assault. He would be a joke if this weren't a deadly serious power grab by a White House political office completely out of control. These people are out to bring as much harm to as many Californians in as many ways as they possibly can, and it is the obligation of the Davis/Bustamante campaign to say so, loud and clear, and not pull punches for any reason.

I hope they do it.

[IndianaGreen]

8. There is no Davis/Bustamante campaign

Bustamante did not get along with the condescending Davis, and I am sure that now that Cruz has filed that there is even less of a relationship than what they had before.

[felix19]

11. Your point would be?

They should just hand over the keys to the Rs or what; disappear into a wilderness?

It's hard to take your post seriously, it is so grossly at odds with the facts. But...

Que sera....

[Julien Sorel]

32. The Felix guy makes some excellent points.

Arnold has a lot of strengths, but huge negatives as well. If those negatives aren't brought out in a campaign, he will win. The guy knows how to be charming, knows how to get people to like him -- it's something he's done very well his entire life. This situation demands a strong campaign pointing out to the people of California what they are getting, and what they are giving up, with a vote for Arnold. The only way to do that is to attack him. It doesn't necessarily have to be 'dirty,' but it has to be done. The really sleazy stuff, the pictures, the allegations of marital infidelity, the butt grabbing and so on, can be done by the press, but attacking Arnold for his dope use, his steroid use (it wasn't just 'early in his career' as he likes to say -- it was for as long as he was body building, and I just about guarantee he still juices today for certain roles), his lack of experience, -- these are things that demand to be attacked. Sitting back and trying to run a positive campaign will get the Dems beat, because Arnold has too many positives for that. Attack him, and let's see how he reacts.

[Prodemsouth]

10. Agree

Listen to this from a guy who lives in a state of Byah, O'Bannon about Dems winning when they act like Democrats. I hope they will not listen to these Defeatist Elitist. BTW, where is Bill Clinton on this?

[felix19]

13. Gray is said to be in contact with

Big Dog daily and spent an hour with him in Chicago last week. I don't know if you've seen him on teevee lately, but Gray has typically had a look of Zen mastery, which might be a sign.

There have been rumors that Clinton will come out here for some "conversations" with Californians. About what is really going on.

Heh.

[indigo32]

22. That would be cool!

.

[salin]

7. IG, I couldn't get past your first sentence

Wilson - moderate?

Not while I lived there. He HAD been a moderate Rep Senator. But as governor he moved further and further right.

He pushed and got energy deregulation.

He pushed for rwing immigration law.

He supported (but am not sure how hard he pushed) for a statewide voucher program (schools).

He rode the crest of the anti-affirmative action wave.

By the end - at least in Northern California - he was viewed as quite reactionary.

[IndianaGreen]

9. Wilson is no more a reactionary than Lieberman

perhaps less so.

[salin]

12. Completely disagree.

Senator Pete Wilson, perhaps. Governor Pete Wilson. No Way.

The transformation he went through as governor was astounding.

He went from a bit right of Lowell Wiecker (and imo a bit right of Liberman - perhaps not much) to trying to emulate Ronnie Deregulateemall Reagan.

[TheBigGuy]

15. Arnold more like the "old Wilson"?

I think you can say there where two Pete Wilsons...the old moderate Pete Wilson from the days of San Diego municple politics and his senate days...and the 'new' right wing immigrant-baiting Pete Wilson.

So thats the question I have. If IG is right and Arnold has surrouned himself with "Wilson people" are these from his time prior to going right wing, or are they the ones that pushed Wilson right?

[salin]

16. Given the timing... it appears they came via the WH

so what would your guess be? Also given that ole Pete had an eye on the WH when he turned right....

These folks don't believe that you moderate your message (they are ideologues)... they believe that you market test ways of selling your message to make people who are against your issue - think it is different and now okay to support (big article a year or so ago in the Washington Monthly about this - search it: The New War Room ; i believe).

But how do you sell that stuff when you don't believe it? Well ask Pete Wilson. And how convenient - he is your campaign manager.

[ButterflyBlood]

34. Wilson had a lifetime ADA rating of 14

Weicker had a 69. Going by this he was never too moderate.

[salin]

38. I stand very corrected

Always respected Wiecker (heck it was the first (and only) time in my life that I rooted for the republican to win in a senate race.)

Somehow Wilson, when in the senate, gave the impression of moderation - along the then very active moderate (even liberal) wing of the republican party. Today there is no liberal wing, and the moderate wing is under great attack.

Thanks for the cold facts that make the characterization of Wilson as a moderate - even harder to stand by.

[felix19]

14. Wilson practically single-handedly destroyed

the Republican party in California during his lamentable term of office.

That he is considered a viable "advisor" to the botoxed Austrian just tells me the Arnie campaign ain't nothin' but show business.

Pete Wilson is a pariah. Among REPUBLICANS.

[Sapphocrat]

26. Perhaps, IG, but he's our Holy Joe...

As one born, raised, and still a Californian, I assure you Wilson is one of our most detested ex-governors ever, especially here in NorCal. He was (and is) perceived as an anti-immigrant, elitist fat cat completely out of touch with the people.

Educate the Hispanic voters too young to remember Wilson's record, and Wilson becomes a major liability to Ah-nold.

[w4rma]

17. I think voters need to know about Arnold's sexual harrassment and lechary

Arnold the Barbarian
By John Connolly in Premier Magazine
March 2001

Once, he was a box office terminator. But now that Arnold Schwarzenegger has lost some of his muscle in Hollywood, stories of his boorish behavior can no longer be routinely erased. Then again, he'd make a helluva politician. The tabloid press got a nice Christmas present late last year when Arnold Schwarzenegger tore through a day of publicity work in London, promoting his latest film, The 6th Day, which had just opened there. In less than 24 hours, the star was said to have attempted to, as high school boys used to say, cop a little feel from three different female talk-show hosts. The level of consternation expressed by those who received this hands-on treatment from the hulking, Austrian-born international superstar ranged from none whatsoever (Denise Van Outen of The Big Breakfast invites her guests to lie on a bed with her and, hence, probably has a rather elastic definition of what constitutes inappropriate behavior) to irked (on tape, Celebrity interviewer Melanie Sykes looks a little thrown off after Arnold gives her a very definite squeeze on the rib cage, directly under her right breast) to, finally, righteously indignant. Anna Richardson of Big Screen claims that after the cameras stopped rolling for her interview segment, Schwarzenegger, apparently attempting to ascertain whether Richardson’s breasts were real, tweaked her nipple and then laughed at her objections. “I left the room quite shaken,” she says. “What was more upsetting was that his people rushed to protect him and scapegoated me, and not one person came to apologize afterward.”
...
http://www.health-and-medical.com/health/man_health_magazine/man_health_magazine_msg42682/man_health_magazine_msg42682.shtml
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=15052&mesg_id=15052

[shance]

18. This is an obvious devisive thread and in my opinion

we dont need these threads at DU. We have enough of this stuff in the real world.

Seems either you are pro Arnold and/or anti-Dem and I have to say if moderators are reading, I can't see any other reason for threads like these because the only real motivation behind them is to further useless debate. There are certainly not going to be any useful solutions coming from it.

OF COURSE we should criticize - THIS IS DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND.

Since the Republicans invited and brought this recall disaster on to the state of California, so much more the reason to fight back. All is fair between love and recalls!

If you would like to read more positive information on Arnold, you shouldnt have any problem finding plenty coming from mainstream media.

[IndianaGreen]

21. Disagreeing is not being divisive

except in a totalitarian state.

[salin]

23. I agree

:hi:

Hey IG, have a lounge thread up I hope you will visit. :D

[IndianaGreen]

24. Fer sure, thanks

I don't often post on The Lounge, although I do follow some of the recurring topics I find interesting.

:toast:

[Capn Sunshine]

19. The recall will FAIL

Our internal polling as of the date of the Ahhnold announcement showed a split vote 50 pro 48 against with a 3% margin. The issue is not Gov. Davis, admittedly unpopular since he does not excell in fighting media blitzes against him. He always thought his actions should speak for him.

But here's the main reason the recall won't pass:two little words.
BOND RATING.

California is the 5th largest economy in the WORLD. Everything that happens her has direct impact on the rest of the country.

If the recall passes, we will LOSE our bond rating permanently.We wil have given financier the excuse they need to charge three to ten percent more for the same financing. This money is just pulled right out of the State economy. You think the billion dollar energy rape was bad? The bond financing will make it pale by comparison. This is billions of dollars EXTRA we have to pay for financing what is a I said a major world economy. The Wall Street connection to all of this cannot be denied.
Vote NO on the recall.

Contact me if you wish to help: DU PM or
[e-mail]
:nuke:

[Cha]

27. Well, I hope the news on this "bond rating" issue gets out to

the California voters!

[aquart]

28. How many get that?

[Jack Rabbit]

29. If you can back that up with Wall Street sources, it could be powerful

Do we have anything like that in reputable financial journals?

[nolabels]

42. Well this fits in well then don't it ?

Wall Street has to be getting weak domestically, screwing us more by jacking our bond ratting would theory lift the stocks long enough to keep the ecomomy afloat till Nov 04, a little more than a year from now. The weakness in of the Feds borrowing throws that interest rate in kilter, there isn't much left to hold things up, besides more cooked books, which surely is the order of the day currently. Gee let figure out why NeOcons wan't the 900,000,000.oo dollar man ?

[DeathvadeR]

25. See ahrnold is only version 3.2 cyborge certified.........

Govenators require a 4.0 or Higher.......

[David__77]

30. yes, we should criticize him for being vacuous and right-wing.

He is saying nothing. But we know that he supported proposition 187 now. What else? Clearly, we needs to be criticized, but not for being a Nazi. But for being devoid of ideas and beholden to right-wingers.

On the other hand, it's useful to make sure the right-wingers are aware that they too cannot trust him. He's pro-same sex marriage and pro-abortion, etc... No one's really, really behind him except the Wilson-Riordan opportunist types.

[Terwilliger]

31. AAAAAAAAAAAACK

I can't believe ANYBODY is endorsing Bustamante!

Doesn't anybody want to stress NO ON RECALL over any qualifications Bustamante might have?

It would seem to me that the Democratic party has hung Davis out to dry. And I don't even like the guy :eyes:

[Boreas]

33. Right On Ter

No Recall.

Bustamante should immediately withdraw from the election, as should every other Democrat. What happened to party solidarity with an elected governor??? This is a partisan attack, nothing else.

[IndianaGreen]

35. That's political suicide, the sort that the idiot McCauliff advocated!

If Bustamante withdraws you will be conceding California to whoever wins the recall, and it is NOT going to be Gray Davis.

Feinstein sure has chutzpah in criticizing Bustamante and his supporters for edging their bets in case the unpopular Davis loses.

Here is the latest from LA Times:

Davis also drew criticism from Republicans for what they said has been his mismanagement of the state's finances, as well as from members of his own party for his past harsh political campaigning style. He has been cautioned by some top Democrats not to revisit the strategy in his current fight to keep his job.

On CNN's "Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer," Brown said it "would be very stupid" for Davis to sling mud at Schwarzenegger.

Both Brown and Feinstein said they strongly opposed the recall and would work for its failure.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-me-recall11aug11,1,5238329.story?coll=la-home-headlines

[Boreas]

40. Political suicide

would be alienating Democrats by damning Davis with faint support. Feinstein was correct when she said that it was hypocritical for Bustamante to run at all. Davis should fight this recall with any tool or weapon he can grab, and with the complete support of Democrats everywhere because an injury to one is an injury to all. Let's call this what it is, another attempted coup d'etat by millionaire Republicans who will stop at nothing to attack elected Democrats.

[Trajan]

36. I couldnt disagree MORE .....

IG ? ... I have the deepest respect for your opinion, ... but not in this case ....

It is our sacred DUTY to make political hay out of EVERY 'oat' we can find dribbled off Arnold's table ....

Bustamante has a moral obligation to draw DISTINCT lines between his policies and those of Arnold. He also has the same obligation to show the electorate WHY Mr. Arnold should NOT hold this office....

Arnold has decided to join an election, which are dirty, nasty things ..... he should get NO free pass ... none whatsoever ...

My GOD: .. the man DOESNT even have any PLAN other than to be governor ! .....

THAT man needs to be RAKED over the coals and his feet held to the metaphorical flames, and forced to scream UNCLE ...

You are being too nice IG: .... its gonna kill us if we do ...

DONT give up like that: ..... Negative WORKS ! ....

As a Californian, I DEMAND our party vigorously campaign against the opposition party ....


<on edit: .... BTW: ..

Busing was a HIGHLY successful program, and effectively ended institutionalized racism in schools .... Gun control as well has performed as well as can be expected, and finds wide support over a greater segment of the electorate .....

You give too much credit to that demagoguery be reacting to its premisses as if they were true, instead of arguing against the fallacious assertions of the demagogues, which are arguably FALSE .... >

[moderateindependent]

37. It is not a Bustamante campaign, it is a recall we must beat!

If we have to, I hope we get Cruz B. But remember, this is not a campaign Arnold vs. Cruz - it is a ridiculous recall vs. democracy. If it becomes Arnold vs. Cruz then we have lost the recall battle. Next election could have been Cruz vs Arnold, but now is not an election but right-wing powergrab BS and we need to destroy anyone who tries to benefit from it. Period.

Especially womanizer Arnold (see photos is you don't believe it at www.moderateindependent.com )

[desi826]

39. I deeply respect you IG but...

Pete wilson a "popular moderate Repub Governor"?

He is single handledly responsible for wrenching control of California out of the hands of Repubs and into the hands of Dems.

Repubs can't stand him, Dems hate him, and minorities (especially latinos)despise him.

Where are you getting this from? The media? They are doing everything within their power to help the Repubs win this thing. It is constant propaganda but you shouldn't believe it.

Bustamente played right into Rove's hand by entering the race.
He split the Left and more importantly, the MINORITY vote when he entered.
Which is exactly what Rove was hoping for.
Why?
It was minorities that put Davis back into office.
Believe it.

He KNEW they didn't stand a chance as long as Dems had only ONE person to vote for.
I believe that's why Arnold was encouraged to run in the first place. They needed a name big enough to scare Dems into jumping into the race.
Riordan wouldn't have done that.
They needed Arnold.

All they need to do now is depress turnout and they almost have it made. The only way out of this is for ONE of them, to drop put of the race.

If Dems were smart they would have put out a statement saying "we don't care if they get SANTA CLAUS to run, we're backing Davis" and then the next week, had Clinton and Gore visit Callie.

Rove would have been reaching for his Ex-Lax.

But they didn't, and gave the Repubs the first REAL chance to win.

It wasn't Arnold that did that, it was Bustamente's announcment that did. If we lose Callie, make NO mistake, it will be the fault of the DEMS, not the Repubs.
Des

[IndianaGreen]

41. The polls look very grim for Davis

I am afraid that if we don't have a Plan-B, for Bustamante, to fall back on, there won't be any Democratic alternative to Arnie, Arianna, Simon, McClintock, and Ueberroth.

All it takes is a plurality to win!