To all the chest pounding neanderthal, burping, farting, sexist DU men

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE


I'm not backing off. Nor are others. Get used to it.

If you don't like being categorized in that fashion please cool it with the categorization of wmen as SLUTS...it would be ONE THING if you categorized them as a POLITICAL WHORE as we do Bush Cheney, etc.

I am not offended...I AM ON THE OFFENSIVE. Please stop wagering a contest as to who can upset the largest number of DU women.

Many of us have drawn the line in the sand and won't tolerate it anymore.

[acmavm]

1. You know, when I saw the survey about how much time do you think

you spent on DU, I was rather surprised. I couldn't understand why someone would be so petty and nasty as to think that it was any of their business, or why it was an issue that they felt a need to comment on. So what if someone spends a lot of time here, isn't that a good thing? Or at the very least, why would it be something that someone else should take issue with?

Aren't there much more important things to worry about? Does this site belong more to some people and less to others?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

2. I don't care

and I doubt the original poster meant any harm...even if he did..I don't care..it's my time and my life.

[salin]

4. I missed that thread...

but saw the "slut" KHarris elsewhere. Not sure why one can't just say that "corporate-bribing, low-down connoving, opportunistic cheating and election theiving" KHarris. Seems to be a whole lot more accurate - and ironically vitrolic. See one can avoid irritating folks - and be more effective in choice of speech - all at the same time!

[Itascapark]

3. hummm...

To which threads are you refering?

[CatWoman]

5. methinks i've found the culprit

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=158230#158367

[Starpass]

10. Hey Cat---got a real "put down, sterotyping" thing for you

and love it: Saw a sign that said: Dogs have masters; Cats have staff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

7. see post #4

No one is saying a little good natured fun is disallowed..it is the incessant categorization of women in the news as sluts etc...combined with the fact that some do it simply IN ORDER TO antagonize.

[sandnsea]

21. I agree

I'm generally not too sensitive about name calling, but using it out there in the topic for discussion is really not acceptable. I can think of alot of other names that I assume, if used, would cause the thread to be immediately deleted. There isn't any reason not to apply those same standards when words are used in such a directly offensive manner. There's a difference in corporate whore and calling a specific woman a slut. It's too bad the discernment is lost on some people.

[DemLikr]

226. Me again! Please link to the other threads in which I called women

sluts!

I'm waiting..........oh, couldn't find any?

[efhmc]

6. I have noticed that this is often a very sexist site. Actually, I was

warned by a well-known male DUer at the beginning of my posting here that there were several men who repeatly used negative language about women and seemed to be very misogynistic. I don't understand how one can consider him/herself a believer in liberal ideas of equality and perpetuate that type of behaviour.

[noiretextatique]

12. well said...i agree, as i do with nsma

i am also really sick of this. and the gloves are off :grr:

[SyracuseDemocrat]

8. I don't like this language at all.

But another thing I don't like is the excessive profanity. It's one thing to say a word here and then, but looking at a rant full of language like that isn't very fun. We do have some younger DUers on here, and I've shown some younger kids this site before. I just don't think it's necessary.

[wellstone_democrat]

9. I second that

its the casual use of "slut" for Katherine Harris (go find the thread yourself, its active right now on GD I believe) who I have no use for but she's a common target.

Some can deny it all they like---or say "but I call men sluts too every day in real life!" (the common DU defense that no one can verify). If you *ain't* making a case for multiple sexual indescretions that involve complete disregard for the quality or quantity of the target's sexual partners, then use the current culturally appropriate term for someone selling themself for political gain: political whore or media whore.

Its tiresome and I'm tired of reading it. Use if if you like but expect me to show up on every thread where you do and question your ability to properly employ the English language. If common decency doesn't move you, perhaps the specter of being taken to the woodshed for poor vocabulary will

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

11. I say we all go after them any time they do it.

Stop tolerating it.

[Starpass]

13. I didn't know my husband was posting on DU!!!!!!

Hell, I call him that every day.....and love him to death. He's trained. He's smart. He knows not to make the Starpass mad. It's just a matter of training, training, training.........And, I'm probably the one that calls certain women and things associated with this administration/repukes sluts, whores and worse. It just, well, "fits them".

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

14. Some black folks use a word for each other us white folks wouldn't

unless we were bigots. That's why in that context it wouldn't be used on DU.

[noiretextatique]

18. my gloves have been off about THAT

as have those of others. just shows you how the debate in this community can be elevated with education and training, e.g., this thread. and sometimes, a few virtual slaps upside the head are still necessary :D

[rasputin1952]

214. Some black folks also use...

derogatory terms to describe white folks.

We really haven't come as far as we think we have.

[bearfartinthewoods]

29. how does it fit them?

how does it fit them in any way other than that they are women?

can't you see that? you are using the simple fact that they are women against them by applying a tradition slur against women.

can't you do better than that? they offer such a target rich opportunity it should be easy to find insults specific to them without insulting and demeaning women in general.

if you are short on words, here's a helper
http://www.m-w.com/home.htm
the Thesaurus has tons of words that will help you elevate you insults beyond freeeperhood.

[sendero]

58. as if there....

... are not male-specific slurs tossed around with imputiny. Like those in the title of the original post.

I ignore hypocritcal folks trying to police my speech. I'll use whatever term I find descriptive and anyone who doesn't like it can pack sand.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

75. Political speech my ass and I qualified the statement made

[sendero]

85. I categorically...

... reject the idea that female-specific insults are bad but male-specific ones are ok. Get it?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

94. Yes I get it. the day the men are monitored I will stop using them

Can you cite me the ongoing male specific ones...do they occur regularly in thread titles? Have they alienated whole blocks of Du'ers? Any evidence of such?

[bearfartinthewoods]

97. dud...did you consider NSMA was trying to make a point?

i guess it just zoooomed right over didn't it. not surprised.

well you didn't ignore us now did you? we bugged you enough that you had to show yoursekf didn't you.

i've been arguing for progressive language since before it became uncool to call people faggots and niggers. do you use those terms too?

[efhmc]

15. What exactly is the point of that type of language? It certainly does not

seem to be to communicate. I really associate it with the type of rightwing people I see all around me here so close to Crawford, Texas.

[mantis]

16. OH brother..........

Hey, you forgot "Beer drinking".

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

20. See...it bugged you

:D treat me the way you want to be treated.

[liberalhistorian]

17. I know exactly which men you are referring to, and

I make it a point to always avoid their threads no matter what the subject, since they always seem to find a way to display their misogyny and disdain for women.

[bearfartinthewoods]

124. DON'T IGNORE....ENGAGE!!!!

all that is need for evil language to triumph is for good women and men to say nothing.

[jafap]

19. Isn't there a saying

"A whore does it with everyone. A slut does it with everyone but you."

Or the line from Catch 22 - "He believed in truth, justice, the American way, and he disapproved of loose women who turned him down."

I think the "whore" characterization is over-done. I figure a whore is giving pleasure for a fee, which is not such a bad thing, at least not the worst thing. The so called corporate and media "whores" are more like mercenaries who will kill for a fee, or at least be a character assassin. Or they are shills.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

23. That and I reject the notion that giving the media the WHORE

moniker thus justifies using it for women.

[DemLikr]

228. Oh oh oh...what else do you REJECT? What else is disallowed?

Those of us unenlightened gay wife-beating, women haters are waiting breathlessly to find out.

ENGAGE! ENGAGE!

[DEMActivist]

22. Bill Clinton is a SEXUAL PREDATOR

let's just turn it around on the jerks, NSMA.

[DEMActivist]

24. Robert Byrd is a RACIST HOMOPHOBE

he was a KKK member once, right?

[RichM]

25. What do burping & farting have to do with it?

I'm completely with you on the point about "sluts" -- but why drag burping & farting into it? :shrug:

[DEMActivist]

26. Attack their heros on the same level!

Never give in, never give up, never let them take an inch.

They want sexist war - they got it.

[Oracle]

27. I happen to adore, love, treasure and respect women...

I didn't see the post...however, LIGHTEN THE FUCK UP!

Too much fucking nit picking here on DU...the site is only going to get bigger...and in a lot of ways that's good...some ways, that I miss, it's not a cozy little family here anymore.

But that's life on the internet.

Stay focused, and say the great things you usally say...it's the administrators job to tell these idiot fucks to wise up or they are wacked!

I know cuz they are always on my ass.

[mantis]

EXACTLY

That is what I meant by my other reply.

No, it didn't bother me.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

32. Maybe we should lighten the fuck up about everything

otherwise that is simply a tactic to dismiss the point.

[mantis]

40. All I'm saying.........

Is that some folks are a LITTLE too sensitive
about things...that is all.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

44. All I am saying is that some folks lack sensitivity and empathy

besides the word TOO is your subjective litmus test.

[mantis]

52. True....

Gotta point there.

But MY point is...if someone called me a "pimp"
or "d@#k" or whatever....I'm pretty sure I wouldn't
care.

Unless of course I'm missing the point you are
trying to get across?

Oh well.

[scarletwoman]

63. Helpful hint: Yes you ARE missing the point.

Now go back and re-read what we women are saying from the beginning.

sw

[bearfartinthewoods]

118. errrr.........bear here........man on board

some men do get it.

[efhmc]

125. There are many, many that do and I hope that those numbers are

growing. It is a good reflection on the type of human that you and they are.

[scarletwoman]

211. I know that

and I would never say otherwise. I hope you understand that my post was directed to a particular participant on this thread, not to men in general.

sw

[salin]

70. I think the bigger point

is that the more we continue to use language that intentionally demeans females - not just the target of the slur - but females in general, the longer we sorta keep alive the language that is intentional in keeping lower in a sorta lower tier position when we view them compared to their counterparts. It is very, very, very subtle. But think of the role that more and more evangelical churches are once again pushing for their womenfolk. Back to the fifties and earlier in terms of womens roles (think of that whole promise keepers movement - that was going after mainstream men - and promoting that they alone "retake control" of their houses).

All of this - reassigning women to lower roles (post womens lib) - makes it easier to push - the language used by the evangelical movement (and others) to get women out of the workplace and back into the dependent role.

Imagine ten years ago someone like Ann Coulter saying (and being applauded) that women shouldn't have the right to vote.

Clearly use of derogatory/mysoginist terms is not the cause - but it sure perpetuates things.

So why do we have to see it here? Why do we have to play that coarsening game here?

Here is another example. Good friends younger sister got pregnant in college - took time off - got married, had the child (has just finished her degree... yea!). There is tension in this young shotgun marriage. The hubbies parents have an abusive dynamic between them (he drinks, yells at and demeans her all the time). So young hubbie around 2 year old son.. when wife is trying to hurry them along to get somewhere on time... starts grousing to son about what a BITCH his mom is and not to worry because he (DAD) will make sure that the BITCH shuts up and lets them be. He wasn't threatening violence (we hope) but he was sending a slew of messages to his son about his mother, about how he viewed his sons mother, about how women were to be viewed ('even the woman I married is a bitch...') This is how stuff perpetuates.

So if a few of us want to call it out every now and again - if nothing else just to get people to THINK - is it a bad thing?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

78. There's a group of males here that think we should SUBMIT to

their deliberate antagonism of all things feminist...why?

[salin]

83. because we are so whiney

we must be on the rag or something.. I mean.. get over it already. :eyes:

[mantis]

84. Submit?

SOMEONE needs a nap or something.

[Booberdawg]

91. Yeah NSMA ..

just don't worry your pretty little head about it ...

:eyes:

[JustJoe]

100. I fear mantis is about

a minute away from "Are you on the ***?"

[mantis]

105. No way

I know better :)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

115. Yeah I am on the rag...now make it mean something

I dare you :D

[mantis]

119. ........................................

............................

[JustJoe]

129. LOL. Mantis, you are

educable, which is where everything begins.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

139. Justjoe you are just

trying to get layed.

[JustJoe]

140. And your

point is...?

[A-Schwarzenegger]

145. Well...uh...

Huh? ... What?

[Cheswick2.0]

110. is that really the best you can do in the way of insults

real bush league

[Cheswick2.0]

109. angry white guy backlash

unfortunatly you don't have to be white to participate, it's just a lot more likely.

[mantis]

82. Well, I don't

Think of the word "slut" as a female slur.

I call men who can't keep their legs closed
for very long sluts as well.

Is the problem the word...or who who the word
was referred to?

[salin]

99. The point isn't about you

as I try to explain - it is a larger problem in society as a whole - we use coarse and demeaning language in flip ways that make it easier to maintain the view (in segments of society) that women are inherently of a lesser status (see the example on the bottom of the thread about a small gradeschooler and his "scientific" explanation of why women are inferior).

So it doesn't matter that you chose not to see "slut" as a gender specific word - but if you listen to how it is generally used in society (as a very negative gender specific term) - and then think about the role it plays in keeping a subtle message out there in the publc - even in the post womens' lib era - then you understand why some women - prefer when people use different word choice.

See language DOES matter.

Just look out our pResident. he says nothing - but his word choice means something to a big part of the population - and the fall for it... why? How he frames things (in fundy and neocon economic code words) - and the (as witless as it is) words used. Language does matter.

[Cheswick2.0]

113. yeah yeah and N***er is not an insult

when you are just joking around

[Woodstock]

143. I don't like Katharine Harris either but

I wouldn't call her a slut.

MOST people immediately think of female when they think of the word slut.

If slut is gender neutral, then why use it on Katharine Harris? Does she have a reputation for sleeping around? I hadn't heard of that. Who has she been alleged to have slept with? Please give me the details.

If there are no details, if it's just because we don't like her (and believe me, she's pretty high on my don't like list) then why not call Chris Matthews a slut if it's gender neutral? He's pretty high on that list, too.

[DemLikr]

229. I'm as sensitive as they come; empathetic too! I promise...

...do you actually think you really KNOW folks here on the board from digital posting from time to time?

More arrogance, more omnipresent omniscience.

[noiretextatique]

37. she saying she's not accepting it anymore

and that it's unacceptable to her, even on the internet. if you feel light-hearted about it, that's your option, but clearly, it's not something MANY women here are willing to let pass with comment. just imagine where this country would be if be didn't stand up and speak out...maybe women still wouldn't be able to vote.

[scarletwoman]

38. No, I will NOT "lighten up" on misogyny.

If you truly "respect women", then don't be telling us to "lighten up"!

It's important to US, whether YOU think it's important or not.

sw

[Oracle]

68. Then call me a slut, pig, asshole, cocksucking

motherfucker,dim wit stupid piece of shit whore...Wow, like I give a shit....

I couldn't care less...I KNOW who I am...and I'm a very senitive, caring, loving, intelligent considerate man who lusts and loves, and adores and respects women...ALL women...

I don't really give a fuck what you or others think of me...because I know what's in my heart and YES, I know I'll always have things to work on, as WE all do...But don't try and give me your bullshit.

And you want to tell me to fuck off because I said LIGHTEN THE FUCK UP? As I stated I didn't see the post...however, I've seen many that make me want to kick some ass and I do what your doing, pin the fuckers down to where there's no fucking way out.

Too many ignorant people who don't have a fucking clue, what the word means...Do we pound it into their heads? Is that the way?

[efhmc]

Lovely language.

Back to the power of words: to separate, to harm. to label, to downgrade. Whatever is in your heart, here, we only have your words to judge you by.

[Oracle]

80. Speak like you know something...

Not what you want to be perceived as...

[salin]

90. just recognizing, of course

that your choice of language to depict what you mean - also sends a message to readers. If you know the message you send and chose to send it - so be it. I sadly think that a lot of people aren't even aware of the message they are sending with their word choice - so now and again getting a little awareness of the unintended message sent with that word choice - lets the user (writer) be a little more selfaware in that word choice. Now they chose to be a jerk or not.

[efhmc]

116. That is a good thought.

Since that is all we have here, the use of language is very powerful and referring to someone else's ideas as bs is a shortcut for a lack of thought and reason behind ones position. It shows only that you have a temper and that you feel anger is the best way to deal with an issue that you don't agree with.

[salin]

127. very true

have to think about that - never thought of the message sent with a smple "That's BS" type post. I think you are correct. But if the post shows up after a long interchange it might also send a "I am just exasperated message" that gives an indication of the level of patience one has (was it a short exchange leading to that point or a long one).

[efhmc]

144. Message 86

He's done a lot more posting since then.

[salin]

157. you know

I was looking at the deeper message (as in applied in general theoretical terms)... didn't even catch to what specific thing you were behaving. Point taken.

[efhmc]

166. Still you had a valid point and you made me think. Thanks.

eom

[Woodstock]

159. Applause to you efhmc

Oracle is showing just how much he gives a damn about us with his lovely choice of language at this particular moment. I'll have to remember that - when someone is bothered by something, tell them to lighten up and cuss at them repeatedly. That should set everything straight. :eyes:

[efhmc]

169. Okay, that made me laugh and I really did lighten up.

eom

[scarletwoman]

87. Do not misquote me!

Do not put YOUR words in MY mouth. I am dead serious.

sw

[mantis]

89. WAHHHHHH

Don't call me that!

I'm calling the Men protecting Men against
mean language Association....and right now.

Sorry, had to do it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

98. Do you have anything thoughtful to add to the thread or just

antagonism for a topic you don't like?

[mantis]

107. OK.....

That was well deserved.

Hey, I said I was kidding.

[salin]

103. lol

are you always this intentionally obtuse?

I mean, man, you don't have to agree with the argument being made - but you could attempt to undertand it.

LOL about "mean language"... surely you don't think that is what this is about?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

111. Hey Oracle I am not after you and the 99% of thoughtful men on DU

so please don't take anyone else's comments for what I think of you.

It would be real helpful if the male posters that weren't overtly sexist would lend a hand on the issue. That's all.

If this were about any other group, i.e. race etc you would get it.

For the most part I and others let it go and let it pass. It doesn't seem to make a difference so every once in a while a good lashing out at it helps.

Peace...and sorry ...i don't think you meant "lighten up" in the manner in which it is usually used...I don't think you meant "lighten up" as SHUT UP.

Just to keep the air clear between us.

[mantis]

134. Thanks for that.......

I thought you were referring to me also.

[Oracle]

136. Thanks, sorry I read this too late...and posted an angry question...

to you below...still I am curious?

[jafap]

117. physician, heal thyself

Lighten up seemed like good advice, when I read your first post, but you seem to be unable to follow it yourself.

On another note, I would like to see less of the "I am continuing and escalating the argument from another thread posts" particularly when they have a "see how you like it" flavor.

[Eloriel]

186. You know, Oracle,

I'm always very suspicious when I see men who say they LOVE and RESPECT women. Know why? Because they are usually the ones who can't tell the difference between loving and using women. As a rule, they just like to sleep around. Yeah, the LOVE women all right. Or, they like to put women on some pedestal, a pedestal that's more prison than throne. Then, the woman dare be merely human, and this man who LOVES and RESPECTS women so much finds it easy to be abusive.

Not unlike how you've just been abusive.

Yeah, I'm really sure you do LOVE and RESPECT and ADORE women.

I'm just so convinced after this little tirade of yours.

Eloriel

[DemLikr]

230. Do you believe you speak for ALL women at DU?

seriously?

[efhmc]

42. I translate the term "lighten up" to mean that something I and other

find offensive in a deep, personal manner because we feel that it reflects a long history of disregard for women, their minds, their ideas, their talents and abilities, to be silly and not very important. We are here to let you know that that bouquet of nice words you are trying to hand us is covering up years of inequality and misuse of women as people and will no longer work.

[scarletwoman]

59. Hear! Hear!

"Lighten up" -- the little dismissive pat on the head. Given affectionately, of course (we are just SO adorable!).

sw

[Oracle]

86. What bullshit!

You need finacial compensation? or just respect?

I give all women all my respect...but I can also see BULLSHIT a mile away!!

[Cheswick2.0]

121. Lighten up is what you say to dismiss someone and be insulting

about their concern. I think you know that.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

141. I think the language and respect tie into the financial compensation

issue to be truthful.


But on the ligter side you post reminds me of the joke with the paraphrased punchline "that has already been established...it was the price we were negotiating."

The level of respect in languaging of an entire gender DOES carry over to the workplace and the law and ultimately REALITY as we know it to be...isn't that what some of these men are angry about?

[bearfartinthewoods]

153. sort of like...get over it........... n/t

[Woodstock]

164. Applause again, efhmc

Extremely well said.

[DemLikr]

231. I translate the term "offensive" to mean that you hate men.

Why? Because I say so, and that's that.

Just reversing your reasoning, no? :D

[bearfartinthewoods]

114. if DU gets bigger there will just be more people to drag into the

new milenium. no way will this stereotypical language become unfashionable unless we fight to make it so.

if we don't change it, who will...the freepers? BWAAAAHAHAHAHAH!

i have a spitfire of a neice who will be liberal to the core and i don't want her to inherite a world where she can be dismissed as a slut/whore or bitch because some one disagrees with her politics.

[Eloriel]

156. Yeah, well, that's the PROBLEM -- Admin does nothing

and we're frankly sick of it.

The thread in question got alerted on a BUNCH and while I notice it's finally locked -- it's gotten 34 replies before it was.

OTHER THREADS NEARLY IDENTICAL HAVE NEVER BEEN LOCKED, despite repeated alerts from me and I'm SURE many other DU women.

The attitude is: Oh well, it's only sexism. No big deal.

Well, it IS a big deal.

Eloriel

[efhmc]

177. I have never alerted anyone about anything and I usually do not read

or participate in those types of threads because I think that are so demeaning but because of you and the others here, I am going to start to make alerting the Admin something I will do. Thanks for giving me the nudge.

[Eloriel]

192. Thank you. I absolutely do think we need to team up on this.

Because it just goes on and on.

Appreciate your involvement.

Eloriel

[DemLikr]

232. Just because you say SEXISM, doesn't make it so.

Thank goodness cooler heads prevail at admin.

Quick! - alert alert alert!

[scarletwoman]

28. I'm with you on this!

I will NOT tolerate it!

Imho, anyone using a purely verbal medium like an internet forum, who does not give careful consideration to their choice of words is someone whose thoughts are probably not worth the trouble to read.

sw

[mike_c]

36. very well said, SW!

eom

[Oracle]

93. Exactly....zzzzzzzzzzzz

Don't read um!

[alaine]

237. But didn't you all hear the part in Al Gore's speech where

he said "If it weren't for that slut Katherine Harris I'd be president"?

Me neither.

How sad. This board could be used to bring stark reality to unenlightened males about the democratic party's role in supporting women's issues and women's rights. A zap or two would be all it would take. But not so. There are some goddesses on here...nsma, eloriel, salin, dagmark, bevharris, noire, catwoman, karenina, and many more, and some awesome awesome men, an awesome group of humans. And some who aren't so awesome in cyberprint, but in life may be well-behaved. I honestly think many of the most ignorance-feigning sexists are still under their mommy's thumbs or something, and use the internet to blow off steam. I don't think they are the majority, just very loud, and they love to argue.

This thread almost sounds like a mutiny, and it is sad, because it should not have to be this way. I was kind of bummed to see this thread because it's not our place to police this board, we really don't have that kind of power, and the fact that the powers that be don't do it tells me that they just don't see it as a valid complaint. My only response to that is what is not to the right of my name. It is the only statement I can make, although it may change in time.

Of course, I am convinced Ann Coulter is trolling here (based on the similarity of her comments in Slander about liberals putting down hillbillies, and our south-bashing threads), and I'm sure her next book will be about how democratic men really hate women, gleaned soley from sexist comments on D.U. I admire you fortitude, nsma

[cally]

30. I'm with you

The mysogyny of so-called liberal men is astounding. Some men on this site seem to enjoy upsetting the female DU members.

[mike_c]

31. this has bothered me for some time, and NOT just on DU....

I've always felt that misogyny-- even glib misogyny like referring to Katherine Harris as a "slut" outside the context, and without any knowledge, of her sex life-- reflects more poorly upon the misogynist than upon the target. I'd certainly like to see less of it on DU.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

34. Thanks Mike

It's the men that speak up on this one that really make the difference.

[Oracle]

120. nothingshocksmeanymore ...I guess your speaking about Kathreen Harris...

If Harris met your criteria to what the word slut means (since I'm a complete and total slut, I do fuck different women every night and I suppose that means I'm also... dirty (immoral) --slutish a.--slutiness n.--)

Would that make a difference to you?

Does it offend you when women call men, a bastard, an asshole, cocksucker, limpdick, motherfucker...does that bother you as well?

Does it bother you when I call Bush...that "motherfucking cunt Bush"

Or using the words bitch, slut, cunt are off limits to men...

I'd really like to know what words are off limits to men and are there any words off limits to women?

[salin]

131. question oracle

why, do you think, that some women object to certain phrases? Can you try to summarize what You believe the point to be?

[Oracle]

132. Answer my question above...then we'll speak!

[mantis]

138. Please refer

to the "What Men are alloyed to say....Volume I".

Should be out in the stores soon.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

150. Rather than take it on a word by word basis which would constitute

the kind of SHITPICKING one assumes when this issue arises, I would prefer to ask people to think of the images they invoke when languaging themselves.

i don't think we need to invent a new language or divisions amongst words.

I wouldn't even consider who K Harris fucks when naming her anything...she fucked a whole nation.

The point is that the use of the word for women signifies something other than it does for men. The same way if the black vcommunity uses the N word it signifies something other than what it means when the white community uses that same word.

Should we all tell black people to lighten up?

[mantis]

160. OK.....I understand

But I must admit....I DO have a habit of calling
someone a "slut" even if it has nothing to do with
sex. Kind of like a race to see what word pops into
the brain first....asshole is usually first...but
"slut" DOES win some of the time.

[Oracle]

163. But look at what your saying....

I'm called a dirty fucking whop, diego...and believe me, said to other Italians... that person would be cold as ice in seconds...

But I should take offense to what some asshole man or women says to me or calls me...bullshit.

Bullshit and I won't buy any of yours...I will say it for the last time...I love, respect women, I support them politically via financially, my time, my love and all that I'm about...

I have the most beautiful twin nine year old daughters you've ever seen...now their mom, yes, I could and have used words to describe her...never slut, because I don't believe in the word...I mean I fuck around so why would I use a word like that to describe ANYONE...however, we all use words in anger...it's in jest and to be cute...is when I want to rip out someone's fucking throat...insenitivity, NO EXCUSE...ignorance, I ignore or tell em to fuck off...

But take it personally NEVER!!!! I know who I am.

[mantis]

168. Yep

Couldn't agree more.

Some seem to think I'm some idiot though.

[salin]

170. I took your challenge

and you said you would answer my question if I answered yours. Done. And waiting.

[bearfartinthewoods]

179. you know who you are, but what about your daughters

do you want your daughters to have to fight for the right to not be called a slut/whore/bitch as a casual insult or joke?

[mantis]

Well......

I have a sister....and if I ever heard anyone
say any of those words to her(whether joking or
not) I would pretty much kick their face in.

Unless of course it was another female...and
she would do it on her own.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

184. We all deal with our conditioning differently

If everyone ignored CONDITIONING it would not cease to exist. IT would simply become unconsciously chosen without any thought.

I'm OK that you feel differently.

[DemLikr]

234. Interesting...you never ONCE politely asked me to not use the word

in questions...you began by accusing, insulting and ranting.

And thus your arguments are easily dismissed as those of a hysteric (in a gender-neutral use) with some frustrated agenda which has nothing to do with MY use of the aforementioned word.

Yes, THAT eeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil, horrific, world-ending word.

[salin]

152. game.

If Harris met your criteria to what the word slut means (since I'm a complete and total slut, I do fuck different women every night and I suppose that means I'm also... dirty (immoral) --slutish a.--slutiness n.--)

Would that make a difference to you?

While it would be technically true, unless it was germaine to the conversation I would have to wonder why it was brought up? Was she passing on national security questions to those lovers (loose lips) then its germaine. Does who she sleep with effect her votes in congress then its germaine. Otherwise - ya it bugs me. Cheapens discourse. I would say the same for males. As long as you aren't campaining as a family values sorta guy... I think talking about your sexlife is irrelevant.

Does it offend you when a women calls men a bastard, an asshole, cocksucker, limpdick, motherfucker...does that bother you as well?

On a personal level - except for asshole - I'd prefer other language. Never thought of asshole as a gendered term (we all have them, afterall). However I find the class of words, while unpleasant, to be very different - and unless you can convince me that they perpetuate the same types of attitudes towards men in the general public that the class of words helps perpetuate towards women - then my objections are a different set of objections. IF these are leading to some broad problems that I don't get - I should be made aware - and while these aren't terms I use - so my awareness won't impact my wordchoice if it is a problem I will work to raise awareness in a similar fashion.

Does it bother you when I call Bush...that "motherfucking cunt Bush"

Yes it does.

Or using the words bitch, slut, cunt are off limits to men...

I say (even though I use bitch so confess to not being perfect) that the use of this language perpetuates a view of women that is too common in parts of our society. Thus the over use of these words - when they aren't necessary - regardless of whether it is a male or female using the words - contributes to the problem. The problem are the words and the role they play in reinforcing certain views by some people (that is some hold the views) and thus it is not genderspecific about who uses the words.

But we all chose to say what we will. I just would like folks to be aware and then chose to be jerks or not. And to understand why someone might find the word use jerky - not creating some superimposed view as to why YOU think THEY think it is jerky.

I'd really like to know what words are off limits to men and are there any words off limits to women?

I think I just answered this. It has nothing to do with the gender using the word. And there is a difference, to me, of the gender of the word as to how "offensive" it is - is it offensive just because it is crude or is it also offensive because it reinforces certain beliefs for some people that contribute to some real negative behaviors towards women. I don't believe the crude male terms have the same impact - but I am ready to be proven otherwise.

[Oracle]

172. Yes, your right and I'm wrong.

[salin]

178. I had to take that much time

trying to honestly answer your questions and I get a non response to my question (just asking you to summarize MY view point so you stop attributing all sorts of silliness to it)... and you leave me with a blank response that could either be snide and sarcastic as hell - or is sincere. Gee thanks. Believe it or not - I was really trying to get to where there could be a discussion.

[oneighty]

33. Women.

We all gotta remember our mothers, without exception

are women, at the very least boys and girls respect that.

Ed.

[Kurovski]

35. Harris=slut? That's unfair and innacurate.

Arnold S. and Bill C.--now THOSE are some sluts. :)

[mantis]

43. Come on now.........

Harris isn't a slut. That is an insult
to sluts everywhere.

OK, just kidding.

Trying to make people calm down and be happy.

[JustJoe]

56. Stop digging. n/t

[salin]

39. I am waiting for the whiney

cries of "PC POLICE" and CENSORSHIP.

But they haven't appeared. Perhaps I have misjudged the broader community.

[noiretextatique]

41. gotta take off, nsma

but thank you so much for posting this :hi:

[patdem]

45. When the term Madam is the highest honor one can call a woman

ie Madam President, and that also refers to the head of a prostitution cabal, there is something VERY wrong with our language.

The alternative to a man has no similar connotation, one does not refer to the president as Pimp President?

I agree with your ascertion but I think it goes much deeper than a few DUer's calling women they hate sluts. I think it is ingrained in this patriarchial society. IMHO

However, I believe posts like this brings the problem to the fore and men who are Democrats might just look at the language they use and rethink their flippant remarks. Thanks! :hi: :grin: :bounce:

[efhmc]

53. So very, very, true.

Well stated.

[scarletwoman]

71. Thank you!

VERY well-said!

sw

[Booberdawg]

46. you GO girl!!

:thumbsup:

[Clete]

47. Thanks NSMA

It seems that when we think we've made some gains, things like this remind us how much things remain the same.

[SummerGrace]

48. Slut v. stud: the double standard

Our language definitely reinforces our culture," Snyder said. "Words hold entirely different meanings for males and females."

For example, a man who sleeps around is called a stud, bull, mack, stallion, rounder, swinger, pimp, tiger or gigolo. Webster's Student Dictionary defines a stud as "a horse which is kept for breeding."

"Calling a man a 'stud' is positive," said Snyder. "In breeding, the stud does a service."

There is, of course, another side to the argument. Not everyone sees a guy who "gets around" as desirable boyfriend material.

"There's also a negative label with guys," sophomore Andi Lysinger said. "If a girl knows a guy sleeps around, she thinks he's a player. It goes both ways."

"Females do talk about male sluts, but unless you put the word 'male' in front, 'slut' is a female word," Snyder said.

Names for promiscuous women include slut, whore, tramp, trump, tart, lush, easy lay and trollop. Webster's defines a slut as "a dirty, untidy woman."

"There is no comparable insult to constrain men," McHugh said. "Sexual acts are not really held against men."
http://www.thepenn.org/vnews/display.v/ART/2002/11/18/3dd95d94d508d

[mantis]

54. No......

You see, Men don't give a shit.

That is the real difference.

[salin]

74. See my post above

instead - men don't have to care - it doesn't contribute to a long term impact in society about how men are viewed and treated.

[mantis]

95. Oh come

ON...men are shown as dumb idiots all the time
on the media ect.

[salin]

122. right and we have a huge

problem with domestic violence and rape, and sadly sex discrimination that is generally targeted against men by women who are given subtle messages by society (and some churches) that they are superior.

Yep that dim man image on tv supported by all of the other men messages... just contributes to so many serious social issues.

Perspective. there is domestic violence (and even rare cases of rape) perpetrated by women on men. BUt the vast majority of the problem - and where the highest scale of violence is present is men against women.

So how - even after womens lib - does this stuff keep getting perpetuated? How do we address it?

Language is just a small item that is a contributor - but it is one. Do as you will, just know WHY some women react negatively - and will draw some conclusions about you.

[cally]

126. That's the point

Men don't give a shit about being called this because it is a term that is aimed at women. I think most men are bothered when their loved ones are called a slut. It's a double standard.

[Cheswick2.0]

137. get both hands on the keyboard

and let the blood flow back to your brain. The reason men don't care is because men are not judged by their sexual promisquity. It doesn't affect their life.

Why not listen to what people are saying to you and pretend for a minute that others might have feelings that you don't have. Those feelings and thoughts might actually be valid, even though you didn't think or feel them.

Are you my ex husband?

[Eloriel]

49. Count me in

I've absolutely had it with the overt sexism at DU.

I say we ALL go down to the Ask Admin or whatever the hell it's called and RAISE HOLY HELL. I can't believe that thread is still there.

ENOUGH!

Eloriel

[Droopy]

50. It was one person

Just hit the alert button next time. Somebody here called another person an asshole earlier today. The next time I saw the post it had been deleted.

I'm with you about having respect, but this was just one person.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

57. It isn't one person Droopy

There is a group of males albeit a small one compared to the thoughtful males that post on DU and may use an occasional term. There is a GROUP that has decided to use as much sexist language as they can and post like a bunch of rebellious sophomoric teenagers.


If it weren't for the fact that naming names would be breaking the rules, I'd take them on HEAD ON.

[Droopy]

67. I stand corrected

I didn't realize it was getting that bad.

[DemLikr]

235. What is the name of the GROUP? How does one join?

Were you once a member?

Such silliness...

[indigo32]

51. Yup NSMA

we're with ya.

[rasputin1952]

55. Uh-Oh, here we go on a rampage...

that is bound to become a holocaust.

I do not call women sluts, vermin, whores, etc., and I must say that those that do, from either side of the gender line, are not exactly what I would call very high on the evolutionary ladder.

I try to hold off on judging anyone, until they do something that is negative. I do that specifically with the hopes that everyone I meet is a decent person. It takes a lot to tick me off.

But, while I hold your view to be valid; I would expect the same from both sides of the chasm. I have spent years quietly listening to women describe men as everything that could climb out of the slime of the swamp. Of course, there are some that fit that description. But, there are some women that fit that description as well.

Humbly, I would accept a middle ground. A treaty of sorts, where everyone respected everyone else.

I try, (and occassionaly fail), to keep a civil tongue, even when I discuss neo-cons. It would benefit all at this site, to try and do that as well. I spent many a year in the Army, and I cuss and denigrate with the best of them, however, I found that respect is earned. It can be lost instantaneously with a poor choice of words.

If offensive behavior is detected, it might be best to post a short rebuttal, and then ignore the individual. Getting into napalm wars generally doesn't accomplish much, except create great animosity.

Laugh, love and enjoy each other.....life is so much better when tolerance and equality walk hand in hand.

OK....I am now ready to be flamed. Go for it. ;)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

64. I wouldn't flame you for it.

My only response is that the words used to describe men usually are limited to a specific demographic.

It wasn't so much the title of the thread as all the commentary that followed by a specific poster who goes out of his way to offend which one must admit..most WOMEN on DU don't do towards males.

That he can do it over and over and over with impunity is repulsive.

[rasputin1952]

175. I have to admit...

when I first posted, I had not yet read the thread. Ignorance on my part is no excuse. As an explanation though, when I started my post I was repying to your original post and I was #9. By the time I had finished writing my reply, I had dropped to #59; that is how fast this thread took off!

For you to have been upset, I realized that something pretty bad must have happened. I have since read the thread, (which skinner has locked, btw), and can understand how things became heated so quickly.

While I am about as tolerant as a person can be, I am in agreement with you, completely and unabashedly.

Knuckle dragging is no excuse for bad manners or hacking the language into something that resembles a gw news conference.

I have always fought for the rights of every person in this country, and will continue to do so. Women have gotten an unfair shake for a long time in this country. As another poster mentioned, rather obviously, that everyone of us had a mother, and none of us would allow others to talk about her in a derogatory way.

To those who would leave this issue to others to work out, remain silent. I will make my stand with the women, and the men of DU that honestly believe that equality is more than words, it is ACTION!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

185. Please never stay silent we need all the thinking people on this board

we can get. Oterwise rather than a venue for THINKING it becomes a venue for back-slapping agreement versus soft minded sophistry.

[rasputin1952]

189. Sorry if you missed my point...

it was morre of a challenge than a request.

I will never be silent when I think the rights of others are taken for granted or taken away.

[efhmc]

66. It is really almost impossible for men to understand this, even those that

are well meaning and tolerant, as you are. Language is very important and ignoring bad behaviour doea not change it or make it go away.

[mantis]

72. I think you are right

I'm headed back up for my 4th read at it
now.

[Cheswick2.0]

60. See your inbox NSMA

I love it when you get tough

[Terwilliger]

61. See, I think you should have run for governor

Democrats need a woman with balls :D

ERK! Is that sexist?? ;-)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

65. brass ovaries darlin

[Rex]

62. Here's what you should really be upset about

http://objective.jesussave.us/creationsciencefair.html

2nd Place: "Women Were Designed For Homemaking"

"Jonathan Goode (grade 7) applied findings from many fields of science to support his conclusion that God designed women for homemaking: physics shows that women have a lower center of gravity than men, making them more suited to carrying groceries and laundry baskets; biology shows that women were designed to carry un-born babies in their wombs and to feed born babies milk, making them the natural choice for child rearing; social sciences show that the wages for women workers are lower than for normal workers, meaning that they are unable to work as well and thus earn equal pay; and exegetics shows that God created Eve as a companion for Adam, not as a co-worker."

Can you believe they are teaching this stuff to our children?

[indigo32]

69. That is truly scary stuff

eom

[Booberdawg]

73. Here's another one ....

I had a male coworker tell me once that the reason women were better suited for secretarial and clerical positions than men is because they have more padding on their butts and naturally suited to sit for longer periods.

:eyes:

[mantis]

76. lol

Come on! You don't find that stupidity/ignorance
funny.

I must be weird....cause that is funny.

[Booberdawg]

101. The trouble is ...

he was dead serious!

And yes - the man sharing my office with me looked at me and rolled his eyes.

[salin]

79. this SO follows what I wrote up above

that the continued use of language has contributed to allowing a back shift towards womens rights - that paved the way for mainstream support for something like the Promise Seekers - and I bet this kids dad is, if not a member, of a similar viewpoint.

[patdem]

81. AMAZING...Grocery bags and Laundry baskets are a 20th century

invention? Or were there grocery bags and laundry baskets in the garden of eden...I am sure this fool can find them if anyone can. Sorry I did not go to the link...I try to stay away from links that just give me endless spam.

[Rex]

92. Understandable

I just provided the link so that no one would accuse me of making shi...er...stuff like that up.

[Lady Freedom]

96. This is bad news for America!

If thinking like that is rewarded, then how can we have one nation of people that are equil to each other?

[wellstone_democrat]

202. sure, they now head for college with that "info"

There is a whole world of "oddly" educated religious home-schooled kids coming up. This passage is tame compared to some I've been shown and what shows up in their written college work.

Its exhausting.

[salin]

210. Dare I even ask

it is an intriguing thought - what types of things do you see?

[buddhamama]

77. it's not just the men

unfortunately.

i have seen plenty of it from women too.

there was certain poster here who received quite a bit of flak yesterday and was called whore and the like by other women.

as someone else mentioned above the double standard
men=stud women=slut,whore--you name it.

we,women everywhere,have been a victim at one point or another.
it can't be tolerated.

[Booberdawg]

106. Yeah ...

that situation with singling out that person and applying a double standard just gripes my ass too.:grr:

[Wonder]

128. true

and sadly some of those women do NOT know who they are. Even a very few of the rape survivors have impressed me as a bit more tolerant and even protective of one or two of the neanderthals on board. But that just goes to prove people are just people and all are only human after all.

[Cheswick2.0]

147. I missed that thread

could you post it, because I am having a hard time believing it.

[Booberdawg]

154. I don't think she needs to be called out publicly

she was sent PM's and emails - it didn't happen in a thread.

You can choose to believe it or not - it happened.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mantis]

102. This is what

I was asking. Not sure why some folks let what other
people say bother them. Especially "chest thumping
d@#k scratching whatever else you called us" kind
of people.

[salin]

112. question mantis

I think I can summarize your concerns with this thread - can you summarize the main concerns raised by posters on this thread that support the first post?

We don't have to ever agree - but trying to understand each others view points really makes discussions much more meaningful and much less pointless (substantive debate where minds meet, vs swagger with WWF fake punches thrown but never landed).

[mantis]

130. OK..........

Actually, I really don't have any concerns
with the original post or any reply to it.

My point was....who cares?

And come on....how can someone write what they
wrote in the original post after a subject like
that?

Personally, I kind of agree with Bill whatever
his name is on HBO. I think men are portrayed
in "bad" ways just as much(maybe not) as women
are....just in a different way.

I do understand what the broader picture is here...
but I don't think it is that big of deal...and maybe
I don't even think it exists....then again I'm
not a woman.

[salin]

133. ?????

the question again summarize why some WOMEN are concerned about the use of language - not summarize why you think it is silly.

An excellent debating tactic is to learn to understand the other perspective - then you can address it more effectively.

It seems that you are so dismissive that you can't get past YOUR perspective enough to even try to understand (again understand does not mean agree) the other perspective.

[mantis]

142. I said I understand

Just don't agree with it I guess.

I believe there are bigger more broader
problems of why some asshole beats his wife
etc.

[salin]

161. wow.

okay. Now I get why you don't get it.

Wife beating. No big deal.

Mysogony. No big deal.

High rates of rape. No big deal.

Cool for you. I guess.

[mantis]

167. Hey now

I didn't say that.

I said I don't believe me(or anyone else)
using the word "slut" causes that.

Sorry, but I had no ambition go rape
or beat some woman up after reading the
thread....did you?

[salin]

176. That was the first time

in this entire thread, that you have even acknowledged the viewpoint (and that you dont agree that is cool) that so many people are stating. This isn't about "oh thats so mean". THis isn't about "how crude." It isn't even about "oh my feelings are hurt."

This is about a viewpoint that finds repetitive, intentional (not by the individual but by society) demeaning language makes it easier to reinforce the beliefs held by some in society that lead to those behaviors.

So if you live in an area where the N word is still common and used exclusively in a derogatory way... even if you don't think it contributes to anything... to the hardcore racist... hearing the word used by everyone... all the time... in the same negative way... reinforces not only his belief - but how UNIVERSAL and thus CORRECT his view must be... and if he is prone towards angry violence... how much everyone would agree with the righteousness of his actions if he took physical action against some poor unsuspecting African American person.

Thanks for inadvertantly getting it.

And not giving a damn.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

104. Oh good I was waiting for the faux language police to show up

How about you use the head on your shoulders to think with and the one in your pants to pee with. That would be a start.

Lots of ranting about language police. Well guess what...if there IS such a thing as language police then there must ALSO be a thing as language CRIMINALS.

If we are policing and perpetrating against language then there must be a thought crisis somewhere in there..YA THINK???????

[salin]

108. Knew poor oppressed me posts would show up

all I would ask is that you read through the thread (if you even care) and try to understand the view point. You don't have to agree with it - just attempt to understand it as it is not yours.

[efhmc]

155. Such good advise that could be applied to most of the problems here

and all around us.

[salin]

209. no doubt

sad thing about advice.. it tends to get ignored. Go figure.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

123. One little point whether it's women, homophobia, the south etc

There sure is a contingency that can always justify bigotry of any sort on DU as in America. (it's not germaine only to DU)

Why all the energy justifying what is already not valid?

[DemLikr]

151. I'm Gay, by the way.

This thread amounts to a hissy fit.

I see your line in the sand...I look at your line in the sand...I don't care about your line in the sand...the waves have washed away your line in the sand.

[salin]

165. hissy fit

hey thanks - always so pleasant to be lightly dismissed.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

171. You are the problem. Thanks for rearing your head

I don't care if you are a eunich, your thoughtless hateful misogynistic speech won't be tolerated anymore.

YOu are the one who must ALWAYS antagonize and speak in sexist language. Thanks for your contribution to the new millenium BRAIN DRAIN.

Hissy fit or not...consider yourself a target every fucking time you do it.

[mantis]

181. Gee......

You actually sound mad....at first I thought
you were just "venting".

I never knew this kind of "wording" bothered
so many folks.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

188. Yes I'm mad...that line of thinking made Rush Limbaugh a national

phenomena. While I will defend his right to speak his mind I will defend my right to challenge his thoughts ( or thoughtlessness). But please, tell me what distinguishes that thought process from the RUSHBO's but for the LACK of thought it took to post it?

[mantis]

191. Again.....

I kind of agree with you. I just don't
understand what the big deal is. Maybe I'm
dumb...maybe I'm a man so I don't understand...
whatever.

I mean, wasn't it a woman who made the post
to begin with? So I don't believe there
was any sexism involved.

Finally, if someone wants to not think before
they post...I don't care...and they have the right
like you stated. I do it all the time...just scroll
up.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

196. I don't think you are a dumb anything

I think you don't think about it for the most part, but for some reason you are thinking about it today. You may not get what the big deal is today but you might another day. Everything in its own time. You certainly have no obligation to get it on my schedule. :D

[JustJoe]

190. I'm telling you mantis...

youre on your way man. And I'm not being condescending.
It's good to see that out of this whole thread there is
one man who is beginning to awaken to the pain that is
caused by words & attitudes, and maybe the connection
between words/attitudes & violence asgainst women. My
own journey included a lot of broken relationships
and finally a restraining order served on me by a
woman who took way less crap from me than any
of my previous partners. I wouldnt have changed (as much
as I have) if it hadnt been for the pain I caused myself
and, finally, seeing the pain I caused others.

[mantis]

193. Thanks for

your concern....I think.

However, not sure I agree with what
you are implying.

[JustJoe]

197. No, if you mean

that I meant you are like I was, as far as
really bad mistreatment of women. It doesnt
sound like you are going to have to go anywhere
near as far as I had to go to start to wake up.
I am identifying with what I see as your openness
and basically good-hearted bewilderment at the anger
(and under that, pain) of the women in the thread.
I'm with ya, bro. Anything I can do ...

[mantis]

200. Hey......

I'm a nice dude...I really am.

Don't have it in me to be phyically
aggressive....or verbally for that matter.

I just noticed one of "those" threads
and thought I would step in and
lighten things up a bit.

Worked wonders!

[JustJoe]

203. Uh, right on. n/t

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

194. WOW that in and of itself is a thread!

Thankyou for posting this. It is a bummer that it got that far but somehow that woman actually treated you with more love than all the women who tolerated it or simply left.

Thank you SO MUCH for having the guts to post this. :thumbsup:

[JustJoe]

201. Amen.

I remember suddenly sleeping on my sister's couch
after getting the R.O. I said to my sister, about the
woman in question, "How could she do this to me if
she loves me!" My sister says, "She does love you.
Just think of what you did to her to make her go this far."
I'll never forget it. And then again, to give myself
credit, it took a lot of work, men's groups etc., AND
reading through about 300 letters from my father to my
mother when they were in their early twenties. I saw
myself so nakedly in those letters--jealousy, manipulation,
subtle & notsosubtle putdowns, brooding anger, outright
meanness, childishness. I learned a lot about myself
and how I came to be the way I was (still am at times)
and I also learned to see & love my father in a way
that was way more real & grounded & less the kind of
hero-worship I'd had before. He died when I was 13.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

205. It does take soul searching

Thank you for doing the work. She only created a vehicle. Thank you for transforming your own life.

[salin]

207. what a cool story

very hard work, no doubt. But what a really inspirational story. Thank you for sharing it with us.

[Wonder]

195. I agree as well Lesbians and Women should not be exempt from scrutiny

sexism remains TOO BIG a problem for female pissing contests and control issues to come before SEXISM... women without realizing it ESPECIALLY in these sex threads can cause more harm to other women (and rape survivors) than even these neanderthals. TOO MANY MORE WOMEN than I would like have embraced the patriachy in a way that is anti-woman as well. And women are NOT exempt it is almost even MORE IMPORTANT to call women on it than the neanderthals...

ON EDIT

the lead post in no way shape or form is a hissy fit... a very good point has been raised for a very good reason... there was way way way too much tolerance for the female bashing that went on in these sex crime threads ... I was amazed just how tolerant the DU moderators even were... THAT TOLERANCE is UNACCEPTABLE!

[rasputin1952]

206. This thread is NOT a hissy fit...

It was begun by someone who cares about all of us; men, women, boys girls, straights and gays, et al.

Your viewing of the line in the sand makes little difference to me, or the others that use their brains for things other than rehashing foolish notions.

You say that line has washed away....well, I'll draw another. But it is closer to you, as each will be, until you have backed up to the wall and realize that you are assaulting others for the very things you desire to be freed from.

edited: really bad mistake in the subject, I really gotta watch the speeling

[Booberdawg]

135. The offending thread has been LOCKED

Skinner locked it for the use of the term slut as being sexist.

Because it IS.

Linda

[SpiralHawk]

146. Here She Comes

http://www.chiron-communications.com/communique%208-4.html


"Since my earliest spiritual awakenings, I have heard variations on a teaching passed down over many long years in the oral tradition. The teaching suggests that as the old world is passing away, but before the new world is fully born — in an era of unrelenting crisis — the feminine spirit will rise to heal the chaos, the madness, the willful destruction of the Earth.


"As various elders have said to me over the years, watching the feminine spirit rise is somewhat like watching grass grow. It doesn’t happen all at once, or dramatically, but it happens all the same.


"To my eyes this rising is, in fact, one inevitable force now unfolding in the world....

[Droopy]

158. Nice post SpiralHawk

I wish she'd get here a little sooner, though.

[efhmc]

182. Beautiful thought. Hope it happens. I see little or no evidence around me.

eom

[Wonder]

148. NSMA??? what about the term "doing her"???

is that allowed? is that acceptable terminology?

Personally I find the term unacceptable as well as offensive and too as word impressions go... when a poster uses the term it is NOT apt to leave the BEST impression, either.

Oh sure I realize society gives the expression latitude, but in the overall scheme of things...

is it a pro woman term? yes? no? maybe? with some exception? there can be mitigating circumstance?

Mostly I know my answer. I was just curious. Is there a concensus on this term DOING HER that perhaps I am unaware of?

[Robin Hood]

149. Burp,

fart

scratch

[Name removed]

162. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

173. Target number two! Glad you could make it

[mantis]

180. Not to be a pain in the ass.............

but....the title of your post is just as
bad...is it not?

[salin]

183. Still not getting the point?

See your assumptions about her objections are not her objections. When you put her actual assumptions into the title your post makes absolutely no sense.

This is not about "ooh you used a mean term". If it were, then your post might make sense. But since it isn't.... ?????????????????

[mantis]

187. Well......

then I DON'T understand.

I thought the discussion is whether
how we use words...which then produces
a fake reality(supposedly) contributes
to the many hardships women all around
the world face.

I said I don't agree. I believe in personal
responsibility.

I'm assuming I still don't understand...
but hey....I'm a guy!

[salin]

204. elsewhere I gave the following example

imagine you are living in an area where the N***** word is still commonly used (I spent a lot of time three years ago in such a community - yes those places still exist).

In casual conversation the word is thrown out repeatedly - always in a derogatory sense. Its just real common place. Aside from offending some members of the community (African Americans live there as well), to some using the phrase, peppered throughout their language, really didn't intend to mean anything by it.

BUT, in this community there may also be some diehard racists. What they hear day in and day out - is the term that they embrace with even more heavy meaning (to them perhaps they are still living with the "black person is an animal not a person" mindset) - and they assume it means that EVERYONE feels as they do - that their views are clearly universal since everyone says it all the time. Now among this subgroup - some of the folks are perhaps fairly paranoid (as in - get offended and 'set off' real quick) and perhaps violent. So some little incident sets them off - they think - I can take it out on that N******* over there and noone will hold it against me, because they will understand, its not like I am doing something to them (the white folks - who are viewed as people) or anything... heck.. they (white peers) view those N******s the same way... they might even think Im a hero they might even THANK me for doing something....

Hey remember Mr. James Byrd who was drug to death behind a truck? Or the guy in Virgina where a bunch of drunk folks doused him with fire and lit him up. These all happened in the past five years.

All these folks using stereotyping language that perpetuates some pretty violent beliefs and behaviors among other members of the broader group - unintentionally keep reinforcing those views... and unintentionally egg on and give the real jerk the sense that EVERYONE agrees with their viewpoint, that they must be justified in this viewpoint and acting out on that viewpoint.. well all those folks would agree with me.

So if you believe in personal responsibility - while the jerk acting out on it is primarily responsible - then you ought to be willing to take responsibility for sending him the message, over and over again through your validating language, that his beliefs were cool.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

198. IT is applied to the SEXIST poster

It was intended to create a picture of the kind of person who would NOT think before they speak or would reason poorly based on their slothfulness of thought.

IF I REALLY THOUGHT ALL MEN WERE THIS...yes it would be just as bad.

[CBGLuthier]

174. The one I really, really hate

Is that lovely new term, bitchslap.

If anyone can explain that term to me without sounding like a complete sexist then my hat is off to them.

Frankly I have given up. There are way too many children here for my tastes. But good luck in the fight.

[cally]

199. I HATE the term 'bitchslap"!

I hate the other terms as well, but that one is horrible.

[salin]

208. doesn't conjur anything up in my mind except

slapping some woman upside the face/head so hard that she goes careening across the room and into a wall.

Don't know if that is the intended image - but its what comes to my mind - and why I couldn't use the term.

[rasputin1952]

212. To be honest with you...

I hate when women are referred to as 'bitches'.

[DarbyUSMC]

223. From some online dictionary

bitchslap

A slap administered by a pimp to his prostitute to keep her in line or punish her.


bitchslap
"b-itch sl-ap"
To smack a punk with the backside of one's hand


overpowering backhanded slaps to the face and body, delivered by a supposedly docile female to a supposedly dominant male.


bitchslap


To smack a punk with the basckside of ones hand

[VelmaD]

213. at the risk of being abused myself...

I have to say that while I agree that sexist language on the board is innapropriate and sincerely wish it would stop, it doesn't help the cause one bit for you to call men names and engage in perpetuating stereotypes about men.

Not all sexists burp and fart. I know some highly educated, urbane men who are misogynists to the core. On the flip side I know some Bubba's who love women and treat them with respect.

You aren't going to change the minds of the truly misogynistic and you're probably alienating some of those men where a simple, straight-forward request for a little consideration would make a difference.

Just my 2 cents.

Darth Velma

[Alenne]

215. Hasn't worked yet

This discussion has been had many times on DU. Simple straight forward reqests for a little consideration have been made. By now a lot of women on DU are getting pissed off that it doesn't matter.

[Rex]

217. Yup, this is a "been there done that" kinda topic

that usually de-evolves into a battle of the sexes kinda thing. The men won't give up and admit that they are idiots, and the women won't let up until they do.

It's really so simple - "hi, I am a man and I'm an insensitive idiot." See? Didn't take 5 threads and like a zillion posts! Just one simple, and true, sentence. :evilgrin:

[VelmaD]

221. I agree Rex, and

I think it's really silly that everyone is so intransigent. Makes it hard to come to any common ground.

And in the spirit of your post "hi, I'm a woman and I am also an insensitive idiot".

Darth V

[DarkPhenyx]

227. How about some women admit...

...that they are idiots. Personally I won't give up until that happens.

[salin]

233. uh oh

are you ready to give up? VelmaD - did just that in the thread above yours. :shrug:

[stanwyck]

216. I was unpleasantly shocked

during a thread a few weeks ago, actually started by a troll--later banned, about women in sports. There were several men whose fear and hatred of women crept into their posts. You would have thought you were at the freeper site. Very discouraging. I guess my expectations are rather high for the men posting here.

[SideshowScott]

For Better or worse free speech is free speech..I dont want DU to be PC

Flame me if you want but ive noticed that DU has become more and more PC..I wont call anyone those offending words..But how on earth can we be for free speech when we attack and ban those who use it? I can see banning the freeper trolls beacuse all they want to do is disrupt and really have no reason being here in the first place..But im really not for the PC Police at all..

[SideshowScott]

218. For Better or worse free speech is free speech..I dont want DU to be PC

Flame me if you want but ive noticed that DU has become more and more PC..I wont call anyone those offending words..But how on earth can we be for free speech when we attack and ban those who use it? I can see banning the freeper trolls beacuse all they want to do is disrupt and really have no reason being here in the first place..But im really not for the PC Police at all..

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

219. I didn't ask to ban any words. I asked people to THINK before using

them.

They have a right to post as they wish. I have a right to challenge them and promise to do it every time it surfaces.

That's what free speech is all about.

Their right to be as thoughtless as they want and my right to take them to the mat for it.

Easy.

[salin]

222. Exactly how free speech works

you are free to say whatever

I am free to challenge you over it

Each are expressions of free speech.

Wierd pattern:

A: I think women should stop trying to do X jobs, they are just too emotional to do it well and should stay in Y jobs instead!

B: What is with throwing the "emotional" card at women, you know if you just talked about facts and gave examples rather than swipe at all women you might end up with a conversation.

C: Geez, I am getting so tired of these sweeping generalization posts.

then comes ANTIPC POSTER DEFENDER

D: I hate the PC Police... leave A alone. A is expressing free speech. We may not like the speech but it is a right.


BUT somehow B and C aren't allowed to express free speech and criticize A? Why does only the obnoxious poster doing the offending get free speech and the rest of us don't?

Never understood that dynamic.

[DemLikr]

225. So you approve of free thought as long as long as YOU agree with it.

Interesting. I think George W. Bush uses that same line of reasoning in the white house political offices.

[leftofthedial]

220. why is this thread not sexist?

And how did you know I was farting?

[DemLikr]

224. "Back off," whatever, I don't care. Your posts and your reasoning

are among the most arrogant, judgemental, dismissive, self-righteous I've read at DU. Congratulations. Phyllis Schafley would be proud of you.

You are unwilling to attempt to change minds with your powers of words and persuasive thought, so you denounce and rant and rave and report other posters to admin. Were you a hall monitor in high school too?

Whatever issues you're trying to work out here are probably more effectively dealt with sitting across the table from a qualified therapist.

Newsflash! I am not your enemy...it would be useful of you to consider using your impressive energies on those who are. I do not surrender my freedom of thought or my sense of humor to your humorless, angry, burkha-veiled sexist fascism. Sorry to disappoint.

I do however, look forward to a post in which you enumurate your list of "disappeared" words.

Let the anger go someday...like I said, whomever it is you're so hysterically viciously angry at has nothing to do with me.

Best!

[rasputin1952]

238. I find it interesting that you would qualify someone as arrogant...

judging by this post, I would say your arrogance is showing.

Fanning the flames of discourse is not one of the points I prefer in a person. What is better, is discussion and reasoned thought.

I, too have drawn my line in the sand. I avoid many threads, might be a good idea to think about that.

NSMA is one of the brightest stars in DU, (as am I), and I find it condescending to treat her, or anyone else at DU with scorn. We are all people here, and we all have compassion and empathy for each other. Is it really so much to ask, that one tone down some of the rhetoric?

I know that we reguarly gets alerts of flame wars over in freeperville, I am sure that there are lurkers reporting everything in this thread over there. I am not so much worried about that, but that they can use this as a show of how ridiculous and shallow we can really be.

It is not the end of a persons dignity to acquiesce to a simple request; in fact it shows how much dignity you have.

In situations liker this, it is often better to diengage, rather than turn up the heat.

[Skinner]

236. I'm locking this thread.

And I'm locking the other thread which this spawned.

I think we all need a break.

Skinner
DU Admin