Opinion Thread for the Women of DU...

[Itascapark]

Honesty, as always, is a wonderfully refreshing thing here at DU. So, with that in mind, how many women engaged in the current bait and slaughter session a mere few rows down think most of the men on DU are “not overly sexist” but feel it is “almost impossible for them to understand” their perspective as currently framed in above mentioned post?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. I don't think the majority of DU men are overtly sexist

I maintain we have a few poster boys for bad behavior that will keep antagonizing until they are called to the carpet on it.

I think most men understand being castrated. That's how it is for women to repeatedly see women framed as certain terms.

Does that help you relate buddy? :D

[Itascapark]

3. Key word, of course, being

"overtly," which indicates that a majority of the women on this broad believe that all the men have lurking sexist tendencies, held in check for the sake of community. Ok, just trying to get a sense of the lay of the land. :-(

[Wonder]

6. I can not speak for all.

but that could be a yes and no answer on that. However, these Neanderthals are very easy to spot in these threads, and while on occasion their opinion might cross over with some of the other guys on the board in terms of some overall confusions the neanderthals can not be held up as representative of all men on the board.

Those males that may not always seem to understand a female perspective on important topics but are definitely not classifiable as neaderthal then fall into a variety of other sub-categories as well.

Than too one also must admit that women too can embrace the neanderthal perspective as well. the gender gap is not always an easy one to account for. I feel this is why effort does count as does open-mindedness. An attempt at understanding and communication is always positive as well.

I am not sure this makes sense, but I will be happy to clarify any confusion upon request.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

11. NO I really don't think so

Perhaps substituting the word INTENTIONAL for OVERT would be a better choice.

I know many men that use sexist language but are NOT intentionally sexist.

Language is CONDITIONING and as such when brought to a level of consciousness gives the CONDITIONED a choice.

I beleive the VAST majority of DU males have made a CHOICE to not be sexist.

Hope that clears it up for you. Thanks for raising the point so I could clarify and not leave you with something I dod not mean.

I think you can guage my uptightness or not by the way we fool around in the lounge. I am NOT uptight about anything unless you MEAN IT TO DEGRADE...then I am a six gun in each hand.

[acerbic]

16. If the general language of a society is defined and works in a certain way

...it is possible but difficult to consistently concentrate and always remember to resist it.

Language is CONDITIONING and as such when brought to a level of consciousness gives the CONDITIONED a choice.
I beleive the VAST majority of DU males have made a CHOICE to not be sexist.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

20. I stand for POSSIBILITY in the face of great difficulty

that's what separates the ordinary from the extraordinary...what they do not who they are.

[ForrestGump]

63. Maybe we do. Maybe we all are incipient sexists.

It seems to me - and recent insights that have been shared with me by a real, live woman only provide additonal support for this revolutionary idea - that men and women are quite different.

Breaking news, I know, but it actually is a tad of a revelation to me - despite previous field experience with actual, real, live women - because I've always wondered (not that I could ever figure women out :-) ) whether our common humanity overwhelms gender differences. I don't know, though....these gender differences are deep-seated and I'm not sure that a man can ever truly see things as a woman might and I am equally uncertain that the vice-versa is possible.

It's true, I think, that the fact that we're all human is paramount. That idea certainly doesn't gloss over concerns related to gender and other discrimination because what it does for me, at least, is point out how ridicuous it is to have and to express and act on such prejudices.

Still, look at the concept of race. As much as I believe that we're essentially all one where it really matters, there are undeniably some fairly obvious external morphological differences among groups of people whose ancestors hailed from different parts of the world. These physical differences are, in my estimation, far more trivial and superficial than are the physiological underpinnings of gender difference and perhaps even the nature of the mental processes that operate within men and women.

So, to make the long story that is my crackpot theory at least somewhat shorter, look at all the strife that we, collectively, have suffered as a result of racial prejusices throughout the ages. And even more obvious esoteric differneces in nationalism and religion, for that matter. How can we expect that a species that's yet to fully spiritually evolve beyond such differences is capable of truly finding common ground in the more deeply divided issue of sex? Throw in various evolutionary possibilities for conflict, and emotional and social entanglements, and the whole thing's just a morass.

And I totally forgot my point. If I ever had one.

It was something like this, anyway: maybe the symptom of the divide between men and women is 'sexism,' exacerbated by the erosion of paternalistic societies like ours and not unique to true misogynists and the like. Maybe, in recognizing those very real differences and putting a name on it, we're being 'sexist' by definition. Is sexist the word that'd work for the reverse situation? I don't know. I do know, though, that I wish I could remember my original point. I also know that I need to get some sleep tonight. :-)

Thanks in advance for, in recognition of my severe sleep deprivation, not descending upon me and tearing my delirious words limb-from-limb, because I love you chicks....I really do. :loveya:

I'm off to break wind and scratch myself in pleasant places....

[ForrestGump]

43. What's wrong with being sexy?

Forrest understands, though. And he certainly doesn't want to be the poster boy for castration.

[Itascapark]

46. And some levity swoops in!!!!

Welcome...I'm exhausted.

[ForrestGump]

95. I'm exhausted, too

but more from lack of sleep than by excess of acrimony.

All the colors are brighter, though....even those of the purple lizards that are crawling from out of the lower left of my monitor screen.....

[Wonder]

72. sexy is not a bad thing

and is in the eyes of the beholder. sexism is a form of oppression on the expression of female sexuality... in fact that is what sexism is oppression of women (among other things).

[ForrestGump]

93. Yeah, I know, I was just

being charmingly irreverent (or uncharmingly irrelevant, depending on how you see it) by bringing up a line from the classic motion picture, "This Is Spinal Tap."

Back in the Real World, all I can do, really, is apologize for the sexism displayed by some of my gendermates throughout the ages - and my own, in the unlikely even that I ever really let some loose - while reserving the right to still be or think 'sexy.' Some of my very favorite people are women, and anyone who tries to oppress my female friends is going to need to quickly develop a taste for puréed foods (sometimes the inner Cro-Magnon has its uses).

[cally]

2. Ummm, I don't see the other thread

as bait and slaughter. I see it as an honest expression of frustration at some of the misogyny on DU. I don't think most of the men on DU are that sexist. I do see a disturbing tolerance of sexist posts on DU and when women speak out about it they are ridiculed and belittled as the PC police and told to get over it. I just wish more men would post and support the women on some of these threads. I see many liberal men avoid the rape and abortion and "language" threads and not offer their support. It's a few women here who are the warriors who fight the fight. I thank them for it.

[MsFlorida]

4. Agreed

Its like in the office, very fine line between being assertive and being a "bitch." Damn that glass ceiling anyway. And, yes, it still exists.

[DarkPhenyx]

5. I see it as...

...assinine stupidity myself. Nothing more than another attepmt to piss people off and make the original poster feel better about themselves. The words sad and laughable leap to mind as well.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

9. Wow how thoughtful

So I am self important. How about the couple dozen other women on that thread. How shall you dismiss them.

[Droopy]

10. I'm not a woman, but......

What that woman went off about was very understandable. Did you see the thread that her's was a response to? It got locked for being sexist. I also think she had seen a pattern of this kind of behavior before and that thread (the one she responded to) was the straw that broke the camel's back.

[Wonder]

13. I missed this thread that got locked

but I will say a tolerance for outward anti-women sexism IS MOST DEFINITELY not to be tolerated and MUST BE CALLED TO TASK. I just arrived here as the Kobe fiasco hit and I was aghast at how tolerant the moderators seemed to be for some of the women bashing that went on in those threads. If it was an Afro American Issue or a Jewish Issue the moderators would have stepped in a hell of lot sooner then it seems they did in those Kobe threads.

What this tells me is that there seems to be a higher tolerance for sexism than many of the other isms. If you read carefully through those kobe threads there was much defensive counter argument going on in response to the overt sexism and rape mythology that was being tolerated by the Moderators, but in actually very little male bashing. Most of the females on those threads DID delineate very consciously between the neanderthal sexists and other males who participated on those Kobe threads.

[Eloriel]

68. You're right. And it's the one thing about DU

that some days absolutely breaks my heart.

It's also what keeps me from donating. Every single time I'm about to open my thin little wallet, another glaring example of the infamous tolerated sexism at DU rears its ugly head. I'll be DAMNED if I'm going to pony up for a site that allows people to demean me and my sisters.

Eloriel

[DarkPhenyx]

85. I hope you are including...

...teh neanderthal post in with your list.

[DarkPhenyx]

21. Her thread should be locked as well.

It is just as sexist. However it won't be. Why? Because it isn't LC. Liberally Correct. So she will be allowed to spout venom and vitriol. Not particularly fair is it? Unfortunately it also isn't very uncommon.

[Itascapark]

24. I think she brought up,

as most of the women on the endless thread, some good points about language and empathy...but, I'm trying to understand whether they think the two genders are by nature hopelessly against one another on points of language and empathy..and la la la la.

[Wonder]

27. I feel

there is a great tolerance for sexism and misogyny.

empathy is lacking across the board... I do not feel empathy is necessarily a gender issue.

[Itascapark]

35. But I think

their are some pushing the party line of women=empathy, men=disinterest,unfeeling. This is most reflective, sadly, but unsurprisingly, in the crop of bad sit coms on television...most flatter women for been strong and empathic, with a rye indulgence of their husband's or boyfriend's faults etc. That's very powerful code, just as the use of language by some men against women is violent and repugnent.

[Wonder]

52. you may be correct about that

personally this is not something I am pushing I have met more than my share of unempathetic women... woman does not = empathy...

the lack of empathy and compassion is endemic and is not gender specific.

I do feel that in terms of protypes yes women are correctly equated to nurturing rather than men... however we are no longer hunter gathers in the tribal sense. Women in high profile positions have had to embrace the patriarchy because it is a man's game afterall. In doing so, women have run the risk of mimicing male behavior in a way that is as negative as what we might have once defined as solely behavior that is male specific, but has now also become indicative of female behavior as they vie for power in a patriarchal society.

In this instance, power and possession, which was once the domain of males, has become the domain of women as well. As such, women can vie for Power and Possession in as cut throat a way and as much for the sake of conquest, in the same way that has always defined the male.

In many ways (and of course this too is debatable. my opinion is not a definitive one) women have not impacted the patriarchy in a way that it has been feminized (as has been offensively been suggested by popular celebrity's like bill mahr to name one), but instead are playing the game by the rules of the patriarchy, and in essence have become part of the problem, rather than the solution. Most are unconscious of this because they have been corrupted by power.

This is why i feel empathy and compassion is not solely the domain of the female as once we might have been led to believe. And too, who are mostly responsible for parenting our boys? So where is the female influence there?

Another complex topic. I am glad you opened the thread. I have many peeves in regards to the modern day woman, and exactly in and around this topic... I tend to ask more often than I would like... WHAT SISTERHOOD?

[Itascapark]

62. Well, to that point would gently suggest

that SISTERHOOD might just be part of the larger problem of exclusiveness...but your points are well taken.

I need to go get ready for my "radio show" over in the lounge. Tune in if you can.

[Wonder]

66. You will have to return and expound further because

I am not sure what you mean by the larger problem exclusivity...and I do not want to put words in your mouth.

[Itascapark]

75. Well...

Separation by gender, race or culture. I leave out class, or economic group in this case because in a capitalist system that’s what really counts. The more you earn, or the more you have the more freedom you have to stand outside your “assigned” social category. This is far too involved to have a proper discussion in the middle of this monster I created…so, another time?

[Wonder]

83. well okay

another time...you inject the conversation with but the very introduction of what I get the feeling is a theme you have put much thought into and I am not sure where you are going with it. In that sense I can not even continue my own theme on the topic, as I am not sure how your viewpoint either counters mine or enhances mine, or veers from mine altogether, if you know what I mean...so... another time would probably be best.

[Itascapark]

88. I just think there are a lot

of variables to the questions and answers posed, but social freedom ie: financial independence, is a huge ladder out of the necessity for clubs, gender roles, etc and it's not being addressed...an issue for the Meeting Room perhaps

[Wonder]

91. well yes it can be but because of societal conditioning

even that financial independence sometimes will give those with the independence permission to exploit others by virtue of their class.

This permission is not gender specific it is class specific and indicative of capitalism which also buys into a kind of caste system and all that implies.

On edit

of course there are many variables that is a given and almost goes without saying that is why I indicated the opinion I was expressing was not definitive and in fact open to debate.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. Be clear I don't think that and if you read the thread closely nor

do most women. I really think this is the RUSH factor in people languaging themselves anymore.

I don't think the two genders are hopelessly against each other. I think there's hope but it won't come through resistance to consodering language or persistant discrediting of women through sexist language actually being ADVOCATED by some.

It's the difference between aiming and killing versus accidentally pulling the trigger.

[DarkPhenyx]

33. But your solution will come through...

...the use of denegrating language agasint men? It is going to help your cause to alienate a broad group of men simply becasue you were offended by soemthing? Please explain how your being a rampant androphobe is going to maek anything better.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

51. Please prove that I am an androphobe

Please PM the following Du'ers who have met me personally and gain evidence of such:

PeterH
Will Pitt
Lazarus
DoveTurned Hawk
JaysunB
HawkerHurricane
MikeH
DoctorBombay

and there are probably a dosen others who I forgot to mention.

I made it clear that I was striking back with the same force they AND YOU strike out with...and you don't like it...in my book that's good...treat me the way you want to be treated.

I'm gone for the day now so I won't be replying further.

[DarkPhenyx]

56. Please prove I am any of the thing you think I am.

I could bring out plenty of people to support me as well. However you seem fit to make decisions about me w/o following up. I simply return the favor upon you.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

58. I will later on..as I said I am getting ready to leave

I will gladly provide as many contributions of yours that haven't already been deleted for their obvious sexism as I can.

[DarkPhenyx]

65. Go for it.

It will be amusing to watch you fail.

<on edit>

Please rememebr to provide commentary and explaination on why you find any specific point as sexist.

[DarkPhenyx]

31. Her post is still offensive.

Why is it more acceptable than the one she is railing against?

It is completely unacceptable for us, as liberal and intelligent people, to accept this kind of behavior from either side. Yet we do it every day on this list, an in our lives.

She can't see it ebcasue she is too blinded by her own biases and concerns. I would hope more of us would be able to see it though.

Or are we guilty of "protecting the female". Behavior just as grouned in the neanderthal portion or our brains.

[Wonder]

38. you are not in reality

neanderthals are extraordinarily more offensive than NSMA's thread on the neanderthals.

Perhaps you are having some problem defining the word neanderthal?

[DarkPhenyx]

49. I'm not in reality?

Please explain your rational behind your claim.

[Booberdawg]

47. She targeted a "specific" group of men

not men in general. THAT'S the difference.

Sometimes, you seem to be more focused on the messenger than the message .... perhaps as a way to dismiss a message you don't like.:shrug:

[DarkPhenyx]

55. There is no difference.

I could really care less about NSMA. I had forgotten she and I had this discussion before till she reminded me about it. Her language is offensive. Her stand is sexist. Her attitude emotional. Instead of saying calmly that "hey, I was offended by this. I don't think it appropriate for people who are suppposedly enlightened and intelligent" she decided to be just as offensive as the people she is railing against.

[Wonder]

57. NSMA is just calling a spade a spade here

that she offends you might just mean you fall into the neanderthal category... if that is so... you must understand neanderthals are extraordinarily more offensive than NSMA would ever be... Not that I know her I do not. But she is just speaking out rightfully in an effort to reprimand a type of male that it would best behoove society NOT TO TOLERATE ANY MORE... it may help solve some of the problems that lead to violence against women. Neanderthals are definitely a big part of that problem.

[DarkPhenyx]

69. It could also mean that it is offensive.

Remrimanding prehaps. Her language is offensive. I could jsut as easily go and amke a post now about the "scream harridan feminists" on DU. How uch you wanna bet that women would be coming out of the woodwork to tear me up.

[Wonder]

86. well okay perhaps

her use of language could have been more polite, however considering the offensive language of the neanderthals she focuses upon and the detriment that language really is; she deserves some latitude there. In other words, I do not hold this against her. Those neanderthals hardly thought before they spoke and NSMA's choice of words was in essence speaking in kind to the offensiveness of these neanderthals themselves. Talking their language... it required she not mince too many of her words.

[DarkPhenyx]

96. NO, she dosen't.

You cannot use the actions of another to justify bad behavior in yourself or in others. It only maeks you as bad as they are.

I'm not asking ehr to mince words. I'm asking her to walk the talk she seems to be demanding of others.

[Wonder]

98. Well you will have to take that up with her, but answer me this...

did you find you were as at odds with the behavior and negative terminology of the neanderthals NSMA is referring to?

did you call any of the neanderthals to task for the use of their terminology in the same way you now call NSMA to task?

[DarkPhenyx]

103. On the specific thread mentioned?

NO. I missed it completely. I have, however, done so in the past. ONe I can specifically remember was a nice little thread slamming Barbra Bush. Oh, but the language used then, by both men and women, was acceptable becasue it was being used against Barbara. I completely understood the sentiment expressed, it was the language used that offended me.

I was "slammed" then too. Except instead of being called a mysoginistic neandertahl I think I was called a freeper.

[Wonder]

110. LOL

well I guess you just can't win can you... well it is an age old battle... a case of do or die... as time goes by.

[DarkPhenyx]

112. NO, I can't win em all.

It's funny. I am a warm caring moderate guy. Not a sexist bone in my body. I have a great many female friends that come to talk to me because I am, I listen well, and I have the view from a guys perspective with the ability to translate into something they understand. There's a lot more "proof" of my inclusive nature that I won't go into right now.

Yet, because I have an opinion that isn't in line with a few people on this board, I am labeled by a lot of people as sexist and other thing. It's darn confusing. I could, of course, "tow the party line" but that isn't what we're supposed to be about is it?

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Booberdawg]

78. Yes, there is a difference

between referring to men in general and a "specific" subgroup of men who are particularly offensive.

You still seem to be discounting the message. Would it had made any difference to you if someone had said calmly that "hey, I was offended by this."? I doubt it, cause I've seen too many of your posts over the last few months that suggest otherwise.

[DarkPhenyx]

89. Actually...

...it would have made a big difference. had the poster started off in that tone I would have been much more sympathetic. She came out "swinging" instead. There is a good chance I would have agreed with her about the thread that offended her. I might have said well, maybe, but you might be acting a little sensitive too. We'll never know now will we?

[Booberdawg]

92. So then you admit you discount the "message"

because you don't like the way the message was communicated. Can you move past that at some point? And just consider the message instead?

[DarkPhenyx]

101. I don't discount the mesage.

Not once in these two thread have I done that. I freely admit that there are threads and posts that are extremely sexist against women. Just as I have pointed out here that there are one just as sexist against men.

I saw the message inspite of the language used. However if the poster is going to rail against the language used by the neaderthals she was offended by she should realyl try and not prove herself to be just as bad as they are.

[Wonder]

25. which thread should be locked for sexism?

this one open now on the neanderthals... please forgive me if I might have misunderstood... but is there another thread you feel should be locked?

[DarkPhenyx]

36. I was thinking specifically...

...about the one on Neanderthals. It is offensive and sexist.

[sendero]

44. this....

... proscription of certain words is what PC meant before it whas hijacked by the right. It did as much to discredit liberals as any other single issue.

People are not going to buy the idea that derogatory words aimed at females are inherently bad, but derogatory words aimed at males are "descriptive". Anyone can see the hypocrisy in that stance, and everyone understands that controlling language is one step from controlling actions.

There are words I will never use. Racist words in particular, because to me they have no basis in fact. To say there is no such thing as a "slut" is absurd, of course there is. And making the word go away will not make sluts go away. And using a word like "slut" is no more misogynist than using a word like bastard, neanderthal or f***wad is man-hating.

[cally]

18. I wonder why someone would use terms

that they know offend others. What is the point? If you want others to agree with you then why not try to use language that is respectful of others? If you refuse to do so, then is it because you refuse to show respect to women's point of view?

[DarkPhenyx]

23. As she is showing respect for men in her post?

n/t

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

26. I made it to a specific group of males intending to underscore

their thoughtlessness. I do consider YOU to be in that group of males so I am truly glad you take offense to it.

I made it clear in the opening post that CERTAIN IF MEN ON DU DID NOT want to be referred to as that STEREOTYPE ( and I INCLUDE YOU IN THAT GROUP) then maybe a little thoughtfulness on THEIR part might go a long way.

As usual you willsquirm around the point and twist it but I don't care. Hit the alert and get it locked.

I am certain if you advocate logically for your point admin will humor you. I would be disappointed in them if you made your point well and it wasn't locked.

[Wonder]

29. I find it interesting that this distinction is always missed

by the neanderthals you speak of...other males do not seem to misinterpret the delineation you have always made very clear... it is almost a give away all it's own. I mean the suggestion that you are saying ALL MEN. You never have.

[DarkPhenyx]

41. Of course you do.

You haven't taken any time to understand my points. You immediately assume that becasue I don't agree with everything you say on the subject, that becasue I think equal rights means equal rights for everyone applied evenly and equally, that I am a neanderthal. Of course you believe that. If you felt any other way you'd have to question your position. You might actually have to open your eyes adn see.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[salin]

59. interesting choice of words

and contextualizing of said words. Tell Rush hi!

[DarkPhenyx]

71. Take the rest of the thread into context...

...before passing judgement. It might be helpful.

[salin]

74. I did

but the particular choice of words I still find interesting.

[DarkPhenyx]

76. It was selected very specifically.

Considering the tenor of the thread, and the language used by NSMA, it seemed appropriate.

[salin]

102. I understand

and I still find it a very interesting choice of language. You could have inserted your own language. You could have stated that you believe that the tone sets one up to appear to others to fill a certain type of stereotype. But instead you chose very intentional language that is played to a very particular audience. I find that interesting. Sue me.

[DarkPhenyx]

104. Oh, I won't sue you. *c*

and you are right. the word does play to a certain audience. Several actually. The one you spoke of was defiantely not the one I was shooting for though.

[salin]

106. not just the word

but the adjective before it. The favorite ploy hysterical emotional women. It was the phrase that was interesting. One can always make a point - but I find it interesting when instead of making it our own we coopt a specific set of buzz words from some other groups jargon. See, I do find language and word choice very interesting, not just yours - but overall.

[Eloriel]

81. I am so amused that because NMSA uses a bunch of words

that are derogatory to men, you get your panties in a wad. Only THEN, when the tables are turned, are you willing to say, "Hey, no one should use those kinds of words against the other sex."

Well, honey, here's a clue for ya. When words are used against women, it isn't JUST offensive, it helps keep them down. It helps keep sexism alive and well. It helps precent all the women in your life from succeeding as they otherwise might. It helps keep women from earning less than their male counterparts. It helps keep violence against women -- rape, domestic violence, etc. -- alive and well and flourishing. It helps people think a woman has no business running for President or if she does, can't be elected -- and that alone helps keep her NOT elected. It helps people who want to keep women barefoot and pregnant, or who want to take away their voting rights flourishing. It helps keep women from being able to express themselves fully and equally for fear of being called bad names (shrew, bitch, cunt). It helps keep women from advancing in their careers or taking up non-traditional careers.

NONE OF THAT IS TRUE FOR MEN. None of that happens when men are referred to derogatorily. No matter what else you want to say about the situation, the language, MEN are not demeaned and oppressed as a class, and the "bad language" you are suddenly so sensitive to because it's offensive to MEN doesn't harm them in ANY of the ways it harms women.

There is no equivalency here. At all.

Eloriel

[DarkPhenyx]

94. I actually object to words negative to women .

See, it all goes back to a very simple idea. Equality for all.

I do find that there are far more people willing to defend women on here. I am almost a lone voice speaking out for equal treatment when it comes to those things that are not "traditionally liberal". Far too oten we jsut "talk" about equality. When it comes right down to it we all fail pretty miserably in the actual application of said equality. If it ebgins to threaten our own position we get our backs up and scream about how it isn't fair.

I don't have a position other than equality for all. Equal protection adn benefits under that law. I thought that's what we were all supposed to be striving for. I guess not.

[salin]

109. So when you see this derogatory language applied to women

you speak out as loudly and clearly as you do on this thread?

[DarkPhenyx]

113. Yes.

I have on several occassions. Please see post above for further details. By the time I get to the thread it usually isn't necessary though.

[salin]

114. Fair approach

I'll keep an eye out for those posts in the future (and back you up if you need it - but you probably dont - take care of yourself quite well.)

while I get your point - I think there is a difference from basic male bashing threads (those do happen - and they are more likely inthe lounge - and I tend not to weigh in on them. just not my thing - generalized bashing) - and the point that NSMA was trying to make. So disagree with the title of the thread if you will - but I believe she was working to heighten awareness of language - and to say not "oh admins take posts away" but... you are free to say what you will say - but I will challenge you. Sort of a "putting one on notice."

I got involved when a few were unwilling to try to understand the bigger point - which is why some language was of concern. Not that it was "mean" language or that "I am offended" or even "bashing" language.

Why does one need to understand that point- because then, when we are talking about it in the future we aren't talking past one another. See you can say - I know that your concern about the language is that it perpetuates certain stereotypes that are linked to certain behaviors - I just dont agree.

Rather than: Stop being hysterical and having a hissy fit. Or worse dismissive in the third person "She just doesn't like the mean language". All conversations are done at this point.

As I said in another thread - language does matter to me. I alway pay attention to it. I find it very interesting - both as we chose it to convey our messages, and sociolocigally (linguistic choices of groups, or how memes if you will become embedded in a group to eventually become ideology, etc.) So on some of these threads I will join on. Not to bash.

But, in all honesty, when one gets dismissed and dismissed (oh... I wont listen you are just having a hissy fit) I admit - I get a little testy back. So perhaps some of my posts might have a slight bashing tone (but not, as a rule, a generalized bash). Says I am human :shrug:

[Wonder]

7. Yes I agree on your tolerance Point

I have found myself sometimes wondering (on more than one occasion) why more men do not call to task the more sexist and insulting neanderthals more often. I must admit I have wondered that, but in general, and on perhaps a superficial level, men do tend to bond in a kind of overall unity and in a healthier way, than women do.

Especially on the subject of sex crime, I have always felt it would be most helpful if more men spoke strongly out against the crime and would come to understand the issue from the female perspective, as well as come to understand that CRITERIA which some of the neanderthals expressed quite loudly and clearly within the Kobe or sex crime threads.

[maggrwaggr]

8. Men and women just will never fully understand each other

and that's all there is to it.

Women are gonna get angry at men for being "neanderthals"

And men are gonna always get angry saying women treat them as if they (the men) have no feelings.

It's like a Mac and PC trying to connect with each other.

I agree with Bill Maher that men in our current culture have been feminized to a huge degree.

Thus the karmic backlash of such things as "The Man Show"

[CBGLuthier]

12. nonsense

I am a man and I get along very well with women and there is nothing feminized about me.

Rather, pardon my arrogance, but I consider myself to be compassionate and caring about other people's feelings. And that is all it really takes to conquer this so called great divide between the sexes.

It's called consideration. We could all practice a little more of it.

[Woodstock]

14. Thank you

That's all we're really asking for.

[Wonder]

17. compassion is another key word

along with communication and I do not feel it is an issue of males and females being in complete agreement either. I do feel both are conditioned differently and that the society does tolerate a certain amount of sexist language. I tend to get along much better with men in comparison to women. I am a woman. Respect of the opposite sex is important as well as perhaps a tolerance of conflicting viewpoints...

you know it is many times a case by case thing.

[Itascapark]

22. Simply put and

worth some consideration ;-) Thanks!

[DagmarK]

15. DU is reflecting pool for American society as a whole...

There is a problem in our society re misogyny (and the acceptance of it) and it is reflected here.

Look at the HORRIBLE stuff that passes as entertainment. Women getting raped, beat up, cheated on, rejected and being portrayed in all sorts of unseemly situations. That's entertainment!

Rape statistics keep going up.

Battering of women going up.

Males dominating the corporate world.

Males dominating our "representative" govt.

The sex industry is one of the most lucrative in this country (owned and dominated by men while women are getting (literally) fucked in the ass).

Everywhere you look.....male dominance. And at the same time, women are getting smarter at playing the games and the smarter we get, the harder the male power structure has to work to denigrate and subvert us.

The bulk of the male population does not participate in OVERT misogyny, and those are the guys I worry the most about: the pleasant ones who don't really see it as enough of a problem to actually do something radical to heal our society. Cause, face it, if half the population is getting screwed, you don't have a very nice place on earth to raise your kids and live out your life. The male power structure is deluded in thinking it is getting head. They have sold their souls for a buck and for a false sense of power. And with that, I get a very real sense for who the weaker sex truly is.

[Wonder]

19. Yes Society is much more tolerant of Misogyny

than any of the other isms (racism antiSemitism religion bashing), even male bashing is not as tolerated as Misogyny. And sometimes if a woman speaks out against Misogyny she is further insulted as than just in speaking out she is accused of either being a man hater or a lesbian or both...

[DarkPhenyx]

28. I disagree.

If I posted a thread titled "for all you crying, whining, overly emotional women on DU" my thread wouldn't last 2 minutes.

However one about neanderthal men get left open.

It's sad when one form of offensive behavior is tolerated and encouraged, but the opposite end is repressed.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

32. Funny the same men taking issue at the word NEANDERTHAL

like to invoke how their views regarding sex, rape etc are all engrained due to centuries of hunting gathering and their natural bent to survive through procreation...interesting :D

[ForrestGump]

97. How come, in my experience with women,

it always seemed to be me who wass dragged back to the cave by my hair? And I swear this isn't a dream.

Neanderthals were, if my most recent perusal of relevant literature's still valid, fairly much a laid-back and relatively peaceful bunch. It's those uptight Cro-Magnons who were the Type A initiators of our lineage, darn it.

I demand an end to this denigration of Neanderthals!

[Wonder]

34. not surprising you would disagree

... perhaps because your whole act stems from victimology and therefore you are projecting, because in fact it is you who is WHINING (very much like all the other neanderthals - however small a group they represent) and whining for no real good reason, either. The neanderthal thread SHOULD be left open... it is a very VALID point that is being made and NEANDERTHALS should NOT be tolerated. And it was tolerated for way too long on DU.

[DarkPhenyx]

60. laughable.

how unbelievably sexist. it is also horribly hypocritical. being tolerant of a post like NSMA and railing against the one that offended her. *shakes head sadly* It's no wonder........

[Wonder]

67. Oh I see NOW I AM THE SEXIST...

even turning the tables like you do is give you away... you are not in reality... and instead are blinded by issues of your own... I infer.

this turning the tables is like some white people who turn around and cry about reverse discrimination arguing that affirmative action OR gay rights are SPECIAL TREATMENT... very transparent you are really.

[DarkPhenyx]

73. No, I didn't call you sexist.

Leaving one thread open which is offensive while locking the other one is sexist though.

[Wonder]

79. Again

that neanderthal is not offensive. It address a problem. That problem is sexist female bashing and the perpetuation of myths that are not only anti-woman but can also justify and encourage violence against women.

How many ways must one say it, before the light bulb goes off and you show even a degree of understanding?

[DarkPhenyx]

84. So you don't see any...

...sexist male bashing? The neanderthal appelation is just as offensive as many of the ones that send women scream. You honestly don't see a problem with using it?

[Wonder]

90. No I do not define that as male bashing.

Neanderthal speaks for itself. It in essence defines a problem... the word Neanderthal I mean... neanderthal... the mentality is a problem... it must be addressed... so it is not male bashing at all.

If instead her post applied this to ALL THE MEN HERE IN DU... then i would agree with you that it was male bashing... but she did not do that... she made the appropriate and accurate delineation.

[DarkPhenyx]

105. Prehaps...

I see it differently, particularly in light of her other posts on different threads. I also factor in that she has included me in that thread and I have yet to make a truly sexist remark. Particularly one that is aimed at even a small group of women here on DU, let alone one as alrge as she seems to think there is.

[Wonder]

111. well again

it appears you may have to take this up with her... I just arrived in July so I have no idea of who has history with who on what topic...

and now I have to withdraw from this thread... but thanks for the chat.

[DagmarK]

40. Lie to yourself DarkPh, but don't lie to me.......

Have you spent any time in the Lounge recently?

The oppressed men on DU seem to have found quite a nice little racket to get around the oppression....... You're right, those denigrating threads about women don't last 2 minutes. They seem to last for DAYS!!!!!!

[DarkPhenyx]

61. Provide examples please.

I would like to see your data before accepting your arguement.

[Rex]

48. I see your point

but in order to follow along with the post you are talking about (nsma's thread), your post title would have to be in response to a woman starting a thread called something like...hmmm..."Dean is such a dickless wonder." If you find one somewhere in the archives then please, be my guest to start your post about male suppression here at DU.

[DarkPhenyx]

64. PLease reference NMSA's post.

The choice of language dosen't make a difference really. No matter what language I would choose to use amkeing a statement taht reads "females are less compitant tham men in all facets of life" is still a sexist thing to say. Language only changes wether you are trying to sound logical or assinine.

[Nikia]

42. Misogyny is seen as acceptable

I believe that racism and types of biotry such as religious and ethnic can be effectively overcome in many organizations, but that misogny will always be lurking in the background no matter how many hours of gender sensitivity training and open dialogue exercises are done. It is everywhere. I am not going to say that all men are misogynist, but many are and probably aren't really concious of it. I think that it is fair to say that a white man is less conscious about his possible misogyny than his possible racism in language when talking to a black or other minority woman.

[Woodstock]

50. It's funny how hard it is for some to see what it's like for us

There was a thread a while back about having 50-50 representation of men-women in Congress, and quite a flap about it. And now there's this one, just because some women got tired of hearing gender-specific insults. If only the men who are so indignant about this (and that's not all of them) would wake up one day in a different world, perhaps they'd understand?

A world in which no man had ever served as president, nor bothered to run, because he'd know he couldn't be elected. A world in which 90% of the elected representatives are women - and most of the judges are women - and they are all making life or death decisions about his body (yes let's extend this role reversal to men being the ones who bear children.) Even basic reproductive costs are not covered by insurance - birth control - yet a pill to increase arousal of women is covered. He's making less than women for the same work. His bosses have been mostly women, and if not, then it's for sure that their bosses are women. Women run most of the companies and control most of the wealth. Men are pictured in the media a full 25% below normal weight, and the odd thing is, most of the time the majority of their clothes are off (while women are fully clothed.) And many of these emaciated men have implants to make them look more desirable to women. Little boys are fainting in elementary school because they aren't eating - they think they are too fat. He's afraid to walk to his car after dark, even in nice neighborhoods, because he fears he might get raped. Rapes of men occur in alarming numbers every minute of every day. There was one male hero in the bible who was left in by the females in the past, but only because they changed him into a prostitute. All the other men in history were pretty much wiped off the record, until a few men decided to get together and create Mens Studies programs (that are now being dismantled by female legislators.) It seems like the female president and the 90% female congress and all of those female judges don't understand what it's like for him as a man - but what can he do to make them understand? Not very long ago, men couldn't vote or own property, and in too many places in the world today, similar inequalities exist between men and women - in some countries men can't leave their house, and in some they must be covered from head to foot (in case a woman might find them arousing.) In others, their genitals are being cut off just because they are men (and they won't stray from their wives this way.) Oh, yes, and there's a whole set of sexually demeaning insults set up to put men down that are still tolerated by some women who just don't get it. These women say, lighten up and you're just throwing a hissy fit (another one of those put down insults - oh, well.)

[JustJoe]

77. Damn.

Stunning way to put it. You ought to send this
somewhere else too.

[Itascapark]

82. In other words?

NSMA's thread was "valid" and "true" because it concerned "real" issues and concerns and this and other threads like it are somehow what...?

[Booberdawg]

37. I don't think most men on DU are overly sexist

I think as a group we have some very sensitive and enlightened men. I think most of them DO understand the perspective.

There are, however, a FEW men who seem to habitually go out of their way to be crass, boorish, and demeaning when referring to women. Unfortunately they are the ones who make the most noise - and feign the most indignance when they are called on it.

As you can see ....

[cally]

39. I agree

and those men make it very uncomfortable for the women and enlightened men here on some of these threads.

[NashVegas]

54. I See Hardly any Misogyny on DU

And when I do, I usually assume the poster in question is a troll.

[Booberdawg]

87. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there.

And just maybe - your assumption that when you do see it it is just a freeper troll is not accurate.

[NashVegas]

99. Who Says all Trolls are Freepers?

Some people just like to make a thread all about me me me me ME.

[Booberdawg]

107. Well then you make my point for me

You do see sexist remarks made, contrary to what you claimed initially. You just dismiss them as DU trolls. So then it doesn't "count".

Very disingenuous, indeed.

Linda

[caledesi]

53. The men on DU for the most part aren't sexist...

They may be bad boys sometimes...LOL!

You wanna see sexist? Go to Freeperville! Enjoy!

[salin]

70. Agreed... but

I believe there are a few that really do fit the bill. Very few. And forwhatever reason seem compelled, from time to time, in the course of conversation to expose that side of themselves. It happens.

What disturbs me MUCH MORE is that in the process one of the very few will make a statement so GROSSly mysognisitic but in a flippant laughing way.. that a number of folks (particularly male) will initially chime in with a chuckle or an equivalent cyber high-five. THEN someone will call the point for what it is... and even those who initially thought it was funny will back off - and reflect.. "man, didn't see that... yikes".

For example - and extreme case that sticks with me. Some late night lounge poster is watching RickiLake and the topic is the date rape drug and the audience is talking about its use and teaching girls about it so they may be more safe.

So this poster starts the most bizarre rant that says that we shouldn't teach girls about Rufies - because that isn't the problem. THat mothers need to teach there daughters how to select better dates (and later mates). That girls overlook nice guys and only date the dangerous ones, so that over time the dangerous ones breed more and the nice ones learn that to turn dangerous will help them get the girl. And the rant went on (think the dude was having trouble getting a date).

See - the whole point was... it is the girls and their mothers fault that girls get raped and the date rape drug is used. He went on and on in a sick social darwin way to make this point. Boys had NO responsibility.

But what made me as sad (and sick) as the original post was that the first several responses were commiserating with the guy about girls not dating nice guys.

Get it? Total mysoginist post - gets laughs, yuk yuks, and commiseration - with the guy. Who is saying that date rape is girls fault.

WTF.

Now that is what bothers me the most. Not just about DU - but about how long we have to go in terms of really thinking about how we think about women.

When I finally posted on the thread - several of the initial high fivers either disappeared or appologized directly on the thread.

See awareness can be raised.

But that it sometimes has to.. that is what makes me sad.

[DarkPhenyx]

80. And the majority of what has been said in your post...

...can in turn be said about many other threads on here that are not mysoginistic in nature. Some like, oh, men are Neanderthals.

[salin]

100. except that I am refering to content

and what comes out in the extended conversation. You are obsessing over a title intended to grab attention. And ignoring the content that followed. And folks on all sorts of topics do that all the time. You are right.

But I was answering the original posters questions to women posting on the other thread. I was following one who said - no not really. I said essentially it is rare - and not what bothered me as much as ... (insert my entire post).

In that context...

Your point again is what?

You are challenging my opinion? That was what the response was the request of an opinion.

So offer your own opinion and stay out of my head (which is where my opinions are housed). Thank you very much.

[DarkPhenyx]

108. So if I started a thread with the title...

"Femi-nazi bitches" as the title and followed it up with a well reasoned and insiteful discussion I am not responsible for the content of my title?

My point is that what you sid about the "male oriented posts" can be, w/o too much reworking, be applied to other posts on this site. Here we have a topic where men get called "Neaderthals" and the author gets a lot of backslapping and "you go girl" comments.

[Skinner]

115. I'm locking this thread.

I think we need a rest from this argument.

Skinner
DU Admin