THE BUSH RECALL PETITION... see it here!

[Hell Hath No Fury]

Okay DUers -- it's time for some Merry Prankster action!

What started off as a poll thread by JanMichael has now blossomed into the beginnings of a nationwide action that will require the help and goodwill of all here.

Inspired by the recall Gray Davis efforts here in sunny California, some of us are calling for a "Recall Bush" campaign! Yup, we know there is no Constitutional option allowed us to recall Bush, but it would be a cold day in hell before the Congress ever got around to giving Bush the bum's rush and 2004 is still a l-o-n-g way away. Besides, if recalling the Governor of California on bullshit grounds by partisan hacks is good enough for Davis, dabnabbit, it's good enough for Bush!

So in the spirit of the Merry Prankster's of yore we will be conducting a nationwide Bush Recall using the California rules and standards for recall. (To view a PDF copy of the original Davis petition go here: http://www.recallgraydavis.com/Petition.pdf )

Using the CA recall model of gathering signatures equaling 12% of folks who voted in the last Presidential, we will be required to gather some 12,643,596 signatures.

Once the signatures are gathered, we will be having a very special delivery event. My personal vision is a hundred or so people making their way through the streets of D.C. carrying white legal boxes labeled "Recall Bush", full of petitions, to the front gate of the White House. (Perhaps Michael Moore or Code Pink might be interested in leading the march?) Hey Bush, recall THIS!

Why do this? It will be a symbolic but powerful gesture showing Bush that, if given the opportunity, a whole lot of us would be happy to kick his sorry butt out of office RIGHT NOW. It will be a reminder to the media that not everyone in America buys their bullpoop. And it's a wonderful return to the street theatre activism of the 60s -- who can forget Abbie Hoffman throwing dollar bills onto the floor of the NYSE!

We have accomplished much already but need help with a few more preliminary steps before we launch the drive:

1) Someone to create a PDF file out of the new recall text.

2) A barebones website where folks can go to download the recall petition.

3) A series of press releases announcing the recall movement and the eventual presentation action.

4) A contact list of every online/real world group of every political persuasion that might be interested in engaging their members in this effort and/or giving us a link on their site/in their emails.

Any volunteers?


This is a copy of the new Bush Recall Petition taken from the original Davis recall petition and tweaked where appropriate:


"PETITION FOR RECALL

TO THE HONORABLE F. James Sensebrenner, Jr., Chairman, and John Conyers, Ranking Member of the U.S. House of Representatives' Committee on the Judiciary"


Pursuant to the spirit of the United States Constitution and free democracy, we the undersigned registered and qualified electors of the United States of America, respectfully state that we seek the recall and removal of George W. Bush holding the office of President, of the United States.

We demand an election of a successor to that office. President of the United States.

TO GEORGE W. BUSH:
Pursuant to the spirit of the United States Constitution and free democracy, the undersigned registered qualified voters of the United States of America, hereby give notice that we are the proponents of a recall petition and that we intend to seek your recall and removal from the office of President of the United States, and to demand election of a successor in that office. The grounds for the recall are as follows:

Gross mismanagement of the United States finances by repeated tax cuts and policy implementation geared towards the enrichment of the top financial tier and corporations at the expense and suffering of the remaining 90% of the American people. Lying about the reasons for and conducting an illegal invasion of Iraq which needlessly endangers our men and women of the armed forces and makes us less safe. Tragically ignoring pre-9/11 security warnings by foreign and domestic intelligence sources about a possible imminent terrorist strike. Threatening our planet and very survival by severely undermining important environmental protections.


The printed names of the proponents are as follows: The People of the United States of America

Each of the undersigned states for himself/herself that he or she is a registered and qualified elector of the United States of America.

RETURN PETITIONS TO PROPONENT: The People of the United States of America"

I have been thinking about the return location -- over on the poll thread we had discussed having a few locations around the country where folks could return the completed petitions.

I think I have a better idea!

Since CA is the subject of a recall that inspired this campaign, I think it would be fitting that all the completed petitions make their way to their delivery spot from California. I envision them being driven across the country in a big truck with a "Recall Bush" sign on the side. Stops could be made everyday along the way where more signatures could be gathered and local press can be generated. Perhaps DUers along the route could meet the truck and caravan with it for a spell, and any volunteers who want to present the petitions could join us at various points in the drive and continue along with us to the destination! It could also be really cool if we were to have a videographer along to document the drive and then make a movie out of the footage.

Anyway, that is what we have so far.

Please, help us out if you can, give us feedback or ideas, and SIGN THE DAMN PETITION when it is finished, online and ready for downlaoding! ;)

Hell

[MrBenchley]

1. Please add something

about meeting behind closed doors with Enron.

Where do we go to sign?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

6. We are VERY limited by space...

in what can be added to the grounds area of the petition. As it is I may already be over how much can go there.

Besides, if I were to include ALL of Bush's nasty doings the petition could end up as long as the Starr report! ;)

[commander bunnypants]

2. Where do I sign

DDQM

[commander bunnypants]

3. I would help-but I am a computer idjit

DDQM

[goforit]

4. Here - Here..........Signing on!!!

this will be outstanding!!!!

Need to sign on the military as well!!!

[arcane1]

5. hmmm... very interesting...

I'm ready to sign now!

[salmonhorse]

7. Works for me...

He's not even supposed to be there anyhow ~

[IranianDemocrat]

8. I think by the time we gather 12 mil signatures bush will already be gone

eom

[Hell Hath No Fury]

12. What a ray of sunshine!

This is the Internet age, IranianDem, and using existing grassroots and online groups I am sure we can at least come damn close.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

9. I guess the...

SIGN THE DAMN PETITION order was given a bit too prematurely. :)

Someone still has to make it into a PDF file for distribution -- until then we are on hold.

I will certainly be back with the download info as soon as this happens. Since we are keeping with the CA rules, there will be no online signing -- we are stuck with the old paper and pen method of doing things.

Folks will be able to download and printout a copy of the petition -- they can either sign it themselves and turn it back in, or (hopefully!) spend a bit of time gathering lots of signatures.

I'll keep everyone posted!

[nostamj]

25. you're welcome to have it posted on the ?W homepage

I think I'd need bpilgrim or angka to add the link but...

I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult once you have the PDF file ready...

[Hubert Flottz]

10. Bring It ON!

Drive through the BLUE states for sure! I'll sign in a heartbeat!

[kentuck]

11. I'll sign...

It makes more sense.

[catmandu57]

13. OOH OOH

I'll sign I don't even care what it says, as long as we can do something t stick a pin in that moron*.

[JanMichael]

14. Wow!!! Nice work.

Momentum is essential in this process.

I bet you that college campuses will be good for many, many, siganatures.

How do you propose that we collect the signed recall ballots again?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

15. Have the completed petitions mailed...

by the signature collectors to one location - I can take them here in SF at a PO Box. From there, truck them out to the delivery location.

That's a great idea about colleges -- I think tracking down campus Dem/enviro/civil rights groups across the country would be a very wise thing to do!

[JanMichael]

17. That's a WHOLE LOT of letters.

Although I'm certain that if this takes off a storage unit will be forthcoming.

Let me know what I can do to help.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

21. I have a storage space...

just a few blocks from my house. I come prepared. :)

[sexybomber]

31. "I'm going back to school in a week and five days..."

and I could probably get you at least a couple hundred signatures. I can talk to the local chapter of SJP or the IC Democrats; they're much better at organising this kind of thing than i am personally.

[Hubert Flottz]

37. Try Union Halls and

Unemployment comp lines!

[Melinda]

16. Never mind

[Hell Hath No Fury]

26. Could you please

repost that link to the Adobe site?

I visited but didn't save it.

Thanks!

[Melinda]

18. Never mind

[buff2]

19. Help!

I want to sign it but my windows tells me I don't have access to the file. I have ran into this problem before,I just don't know how to fix it. :dunce:

[Hell Hath No Fury]

20. Not yet!

Read my post above -- this wil be strictly pen and paper petition action -- hopefully a downloadable version will be available in just a few hours.

Hang in there!

Hell

[Melinda]

22. Never mind

[buff2]

24. Ok

:hi: Thanks!

[proud patriot]

23. Oh Yeah !

:D

[ProudDad]

27. I can help

This is a very cool idea. (Abby was one of my main heroes), "If I can't laugh, I don't wanna be part of your revolution" (with apologies to Mother Jones).

I have access to the Adobe Writer (It ain't cheap - the reader is, the writer isn't) and can create the PDF.

I also may be able to host a download site on my web site or could create a new web site for the petition (it's pretty cheap nowdays).

Give me a call (Proud Patriot has my number).

Chet

:bounce:

[Klapaucius]

36. Alternative...

I have something, if you're interested in just printing it out. There is a freeware/open-source program called PDFCreator. I use it on my machine. It behaves just like a printer, and all you do is to create the form on whatever application you choose, and then tell it to print to PDFCreator. It will then convert it to a PDF format for printing.

You can download it from:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdfcreator/

[imwatchingem]

28. For the Gods' sakes...

don't just recall the village idiot, recall the entire administration!!!

[goobergunch]

29. I'd sign, but I'm not a "registered and qualified elector"...

stupid 18-year-old requirement :grr:

[Pastiche423]

30. As of 1:45 pm PDT

has the petition been made into a pdf file yet? If not, are corrections needed?

Has a committee been formed to organize all of the whatiz?

[ProudDad]

32. I'm working on one now

I'm working on a petition right now. I can have it done and converted to PDF and posted on my website for download by early tomorrow afternoon (Wed.).

If that's not soon enough, let me know.

If it is, uh, let me know.

Chet


PS: I have done a little editing, specifically substituted Impeach for Recall. Here's the current Version of the preamble:

-----------------------------

TO THE HONORABLE F. James Sensebrenner, Jr., Chairman, and John Conyers, Ranking Member of the U.S. House of Representatives' Committee on the Judiciary:

Pursuant to the spirit of the United States Constitution and free democracy, we the undersigned registered and qualified electors of the United States of America, respectfully state that we seek the impeachment and removal of George W. Bush holding the office of President, of the United States. We demand an election of a successor to that office. President of the United States.

NOTICE OF INTENTION TO CIRCULATE RECALL PETITION. TO PRESIDENT SELECT GEORGE W. BUSH:
Pursuant to the spirit of the United States Constitution and free democracy, the undersigned registered qualified voters of the United States of America, hereby give notice that we are the proponents of a recall petition and that we intend to seek your impeachment and removal from the office of President of the United States, and to demand election of a successor in that office. The grounds for the recall are as follows:

Gross mismanagement of the United States finances by repeated tax cuts and policy implementation geared towards the enrichment of the top financial tier and corporations at the expense and suffering of the remaining 90% of the American people. Lying about the reasons for and conducting an illegal invasion of Iraq which needlessly endangers our men and women of the armed forces and makes us less safe. Tragically ignoring pre-9/11 security warnings by foreign and domestic intelligence sources about a possible imminent terrorist strike. Threatening our planet and very survival by severely undermining important environmental protections.

The printed names of the proponents are as follows: The People of the United States of America

Each of the undersigned states for himself/herself that he or she is a registered and qualified elector of the United States of America.

[proud patriot]

39. Cool Beans Dad

Say hey to my dad everyone :D

[Pastiche423]

42. Greetings ProudDad

:hi:

[AnnabelLee]

57. Hi, Dad!

:hi: Welcome to DU!:-)

[Hell Hath No Fury]

46. Thanks Patriot Dad!

I was starting to panic 'cause I really don't know how to do the PDF thingy.

I have some additional text that needs to be added. I'll send you a personal PM and give you the gories.

Thanks again!

[goobergunch]

50. Hello and welcome to DU!

:hi:

[DagmarK]

33. I am going to make a battle call to Dean supporters......

Howard Dean is doing a huge sweeping tour of the country with visits and rallies with Dean but also TONS of local events leading up to the Dean rallies. In Portland alone, there are coffee fundraisers, picnics, campaign meetings...... you name it. All over the country. And the DEAN PEOPLE need to hand carry some petitions for recall to these events!!

Not to mention Bush's fundraising sweeps this month and the ensuing protests organized against him.

We need to keep our eyes and ears open for every single event that draws citizens in the name of politics and canvass the heck out of those crowds.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

52. Exactly!

That is the way to use the existing political structures to generate signatures. Anyone who goes to a Dean Meetup or ANY candidate meetup should take petitions with them and get signatures.

Any protests should be hit, any booksigning events (Susan McDougal, Hillary, Al Franken, Michael Moore) should be gone to with petitions in hand, check your local newspaper to find any upcoming events (conventions, political film premieres, political speakers) that might offer an opportunity for signature gathering.

There are a gazillion ways to do this in the real world.

This is a true story: I created a piece of work for the SF Voter Rights march back when Bush was first elected. I posted the information to ONE small group I belonged to. That one post's info made it's way to just about every liberal website within months and then showed up in "Stupid White Men" within five months. And that was without ANY effort whatsoever to make something happen.

THAT is the power of the Internet.

And THAT is why I think that we can make this happen.

[diamondsoul]

60. What would show some unity

among the Democrats is if every candidate's supporters did the same thing. We may be divided over the best replacement but we ALL agree * has to GO!!

[DagmarK]

34. ATTN: TruthIsAll and PeteNYC and PunPirate.......are you out there????

If we were holding nominations for people to help write press releases for this.......I'd nominate y'all.

Can ya dig it????????

(and anyone running across these folks...tell them about this post! LOL)

[DagmarK]

35. Outstanding HellHathNoFury!! Outstanding

(but hey, I am still always going to wish for delivery to the statue of liberty! :-) )

But your grandstanding idea of making a show out of the drive from Calif to D.C. is outstanding!!!!!!!!

Makes me want to get George Soros to lease us a train to take across America....... A la Teddy Roosevelt. Wasn't it Teddy who did the train campaigning? Or FDR? I forget. But the picture is clear in my mind.

I would almost be willing to write a friggin official GRANT to Soros for funding.......I am going to chew on that for a bit.......

(and I am not talking ANY train..... a train that has a place for that big white truck so we can stop and drive into the towns and cities and rally for more signatures!)

[sexybomber]

38. I can try to draw something up.

I may have a draft as early as tonight, but that depends on how familiar i can get with Acrobat (I just got it.)

[ProudDad]

41. I can create the PDF and host it.

FYI - I'm using Visual Foxpro's report writer to create the petition. I'm saving the text in a table to it can be easily changed and reprinted.

I'm going to write the Foxpro Report to the Acrobat Distiller to create the PDF file.

Again, I can complete it by early Wed. afternoon (PDT).

Chet

[sexybomber]

43. hoo, sheesh.

I don't even know what Visual Foxpro is. I'll let you handle it. (Methinks I'm out of my league here...)

[Mairead]

65. I already have one created, if you'd like

If you'd like it, tell me how to get it to you

[Hell Hath No Fury]

109. Hey Mairead ---

it looks like Chet has the PDF thingy covered -- I htink we're just wating now on a final document.

Thanks!

[CSI Willows]

40. Wonderful!

Any tips on getting signatures? And do you have to be over 18 to sign it?

[JanMichael]

44. I don't see why we couldn't have a special "Student" recall petition.

Since it's non-binding we can be creative and include ALL who can't stand the chimp.

[nostamj]

45. wouldn't some VETERAN-specific petitions

be sweet too???

(to repeat: the ?W site will be happy to put a download link on the home page to help get the petition out there)

[Hell Hath No Fury]

48. I was seriously thinking about that...

as I was writing the recall petition instructions.

It is not in keeping with the CA recall law or the wording of the petition, but it might be a nice idea to have a special sheet for folks who are not eligible due to age -- after all, they have a direct interest in this because the Bush policies will be effecting them and their future.

Perhaps a Declaration of Solidarity (in honor of Poland) would be a nice form to have those folks sign.

I'll go ahead and work on that.

[goobergunch]

49. Good!

Then count me in.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

47. I think the best way to start...

is to download the petition (when it's ready) and then start talking it up in your circle of friends, any news/discussion groups you bellong to, maybe adding a link to the petition website in your email signature, contacting your local Dem/Green/Ind group and asking if they will pass it along to their membership and/or host a link on their website, contacting any local colleges and seeing if there are any political/civil rights groups on campus that might do the same.

And of course, encourage those who you get signatures from to get out and ask THEIR friends/family/co-workers/etc. to sign the petition.

That's just a few of the ways to get started.

I'll be back later withsome more. :)

[0007]

51. Looks like maybe something will happen

12 million can be had.

The journey starts with the first signature.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

53. Thought of another place to get signatures!

I totally forgot about the SF Mime Troupe performances -- they are touring with a piece that slams Bush & Co.

They get huge audiences -- ripe for the picking. :)

Are there any political performance groups/theatres in your area?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

54. BOOK SIGNING EVENTS LIST!

I found this over on an amazing site found at http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Hills/8944/

Here is a listing of book signings that signatures of those standing in line or on the way to the bookstore could be discreetly gathered:

Scott Adams, creator of Dilbert, signing copies of Dilbert & the Way of the Weasel
10/21/03 12:30 PM at Borders Books - Post St. San Francisco, CA.

Madeleine Albright, former Secretary of State, signing copies of Madame Secretary: A Memoir
9/17/03 7:00 PM at Barnes & Noble - Union Square. New York, NY.
9/18/03 7:30 PM at Barnes & Noble - M Street NW. Washington, DC.
9/26/03 12:30 PM at Borders Books – N. State St. Chicago, IL.
9/30/03 2:00 PM at Barnes & Noble - West Forest Hill Blvd. Wellington, FL.
10/1/03 at Brazos Bookstore - Bissonnet St. Houston, TX.

David Brenner, one of the biggest names in comedy in the 70s, signing copies of I Think There’s A Terrorist In My Soup
10/9/03 1:00 PM at Barnes & Noble - Fifth Ave. New York, NY.

Tom Clancy, mega-selling author, signing copies of Teeth of the Tiger
8/11/03 1:00 PM at Barnes & Noble – Fifth Ave. New York, NY.
8/13/03 Noon at Borders Books – Wall Street. New York, NY.
8/14/03 7:00 PM at Barnes & Noble – Fountain Dr. Reston, VA.
8/19/03 7:00 PM at the Fort Worth Convention Center – Houston St. Fort Worth, TX.
8/20/03 7:00 PM at Barnes & Noble – IH 10 West. San Antonio, TX.

Hillary Clinton, Senator and former First Lady, signing copies of Living History
8/11/03 11:00 AM at Barnes & Noble - Peachtree Road NE. Atlanta, GA.
8/11/03 5:30 PM at Left Bank Books - North Euclid. St. Louis, MO.
8/12/03 11:30 AM at Musicland – Mall of America. Bloomington, MN.
8/13/03 5:30 PM at Joseph-Beth Bookseller - Shaker Square. Cleveland, OH.
8/16/03 4:00 PM at Bunch of Grapes Bookstore - Main St. Martha’s Vineyard.

Judy Collins, singing superstar from the 60s & 70s, signing copies of Walking In This World
9/30/03 7:00 PM at Barnes & Noble – Broadway at 66th. New York, NY.
10/9/03 7:00 PM at Booksmith - Haight Street. San Francisco, CA.
10/29/03 at Brookline Booksmith - Harvard Street. Brookline, MA.

Al Franken, humorist and political satirist, signing copies of Lies And Lying Liars Who Tell Them
9/30/03 at Harry W. Schwartz Bookshops - West Bluemound Road, Brookfield, WI.
10/1/03 7:30 PM at Barnes & Noble - Old Orchard Center. Skokie, IL.
10/4/03 7:00 PM at Barnes & Noble – Research Blvd. Austin, TX.
10/8/03 7:30 PM at Borders Books - Crossroads Center. Baileys Crossroads, VA.

Garrison Keillor, of “Prairie Home Companion” fame, signing copies of Love Me
9/7/03 at Harry W. Schwartz Bookshops - West Bluemound Road, Brookfield, WI.
9/17/03 7:30 PM at Barnes & Noble – W. 69th. Edina, MN.
10/1/03 7:00 PM at Barnes & Noble - East 17th St. New York, NY.

Barry Levinson, Oscar winning director, signing copies of Sixty-Six
9/20/03 1:00 PM at Barnes & Noble - Honeygo Blvd. Nottingham, MD.
9/22/03 7:00 PM at Barnes & Noble – Broadway. New York, NY.
9/24/03 7:30 PM at Kepler’s Books - El Camino Real. Menlo Park, CA.
9/29/03 PM at Book Soup - Sunset Blvd. West Hollywood, CA.

Shirley MacLaine, Oscar winning actress, signing copies of Out On A Leash
10/6/03 at Barnes & Noble – Rockefeller Center. New York, NY.

Steve Martin, comedy superstar, signing copies of The Pleasure of My Company
9/30/03 7:00 PM at Barnes & Noble – Union Square. New York, NY.

Mike Nelson, formerly of “Mystery Science Theater 3000”, signing copies of Mike Nelson’s Death Rat
8/16/03 2:00 PM at Borders Books - N. Michigan. Chicago, IL.

Ann Richards, former governor of Texas, signing copies of I’m Not Slowing Down
8/19/03 7:00 PM at Borders Books – Preston Rd. Dallas, TX.
8/21/03 7:00 PM at Barnes & Noble - Memorial Dr. Houston, TX.
8/22/03 7:00 PM at BookPeople - N. Lamar. Austin, TX.
9/26/03 7:30 PM at Current Affairs Bookstore - University Ave. North Park, CA.

Some of the dates may haave already occurred or may be a bit late, but I think this is a true motherlode for those who want to get something done!

I can handle the SF/Bay Area signings -- alas, most of them are on the Left Coast or the mid west. Volunteers anyone?

[DagmarK]

55. I think we need to slow this all down and get organized.......

HHNF, you have really taken the ball and run with it. Outstanding job you have done! But we need to really slow this down, get organized, get unified in purpose and get a cohesive plan in place. The power of this project is dependent on it being a totally grassroots project, from the bottom up. The "spririt" of the grassroot organization from the get-go IS the fuel that is going to take this project to a successful completion.

HHNF, I think you have taken too much on yourself. This is a BIG job and a very important one. I can't even envision the degree of impact this recall drive will have. As such, I think we need to reign this in a bit.....form a steering committee and caucus as to exactly the PLAN from what's in the petition to how it gets out to the manner of delivery of the final one. A mindful plan from the get-go that can be implemented in a coherent, organized fashion will be the gauge with which success will result.

And for a PLAN to be designed, we need a a group of people to put their minds together and design pretty much the matrix of how this is all going to come together. And for that, we need discussion followed by thinking time and then coming together to discuss it again. Success for this campaign is not contingent upon it gettig off the ground THIS WEEK. We really do have the time to think it through.

If it stops being a grassroots consensus type of project in the first 24 hours -- the spirit of it will not grow.

Let's be mindful. Let's be grassroots oriented from the get-go. Let's do a MISSION STATEMENT and then implement the plan by staying true to the principles of that mission statement.

Let's take all this fire and energy and focus it.

(ONE EXAMPLE: Being one person, you are seeing the petition language as having to be limited due to space. If I were on the committee to write the petition, I would have quickly pointed out that the petition can be in landscape format! You can get a lot of text in landscaope. So......a committee on the language of the petition is probably the most important thing. It would take a book to list why we want bush out. But I saw and copied a post from someone the other day.....I couldn't believe they summed up the entire evil cabal in 1 paragraph!! So.....everything can be better and improved just by having a consensus of folks adding to the process.)

[Melinda]

58. Excellent suggestions.

There is no "I" in TEAMwork, and an undertaking like this is a HUGE job that must be centrally coordinated by a motivated group of like minded people. :)

Perhaps HHNF, JonMichael, you and anyone else interested in steering the recall of * can meet in the activism forum and put your heads together - TOGETHER being the operative word.

You've done well HHNF, and with the help of your compadres I think * is going to reap some combined DU fury long before 11/2004. :)

[JanMichael]

59. I'll second that. 12 Million "ballots" is quite a task & we need to be...

...patient with the planning.

I think the idea actually has a chance to succeed. Not only in gathering the signatures but in humiliating BushCo.

So I would suggest a Steering Committee comprised of whomever wishes to participate. For that then start the nuts & bolts work. Running text by DU is an imperative in order to gleen fresh ideas as well as encourage continued involvement.

I'm open to suggestions and will help in whatever capacity is needed.

[dusty64]

56. Will gladly sign as

soon as possible!

[Il_Coniglietto]

62. Age factor for me

But I'll definitely sign the solidarity one. That way Bush will know he's not in safe territory with the non-voters either. Will that one be just for younger folks or will it include everyone who can't vote, like residents?

[diamondsoul]

61. This is a great idea!

Unfortunately I'm not of much use trying to write the thing up, just because of a lack of time. I bet Will could add some real teeth to the language, though. :evilgrin:

[JanMichael]

63. kick.

:kick:

[JanMichael]

64. kick...again

:kick:

[Mairead]

66. I have a Recall PDF made up, if someone wants to host it

I thought I'd offer it since ProudDad is apparently doing an impeachment one.

Let me know?

[JanMichael]

67. I think we need to get more organised.

Is this a non-binding Recall project or an Impeachment petition?

Is it both? Should they be don'e together or separately?

Do we create our our Organisation to sponser it or do we pass it off to an established group?

How do we determine which petitions to use? How do we determine who is eligible to sign? Will we have an option for non-voting aged people? How will they be distributed? How will they be delivered? Where will they be delivered?

[DagmarK]

68. We need a steering committee to answer those Qs and many more.....

Where is HHNF today?

Paging HHNF......paging HHNF......

What do you think about steering committee?

We all really need to caucus..... can you PM me when you get a minute?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

69. My thoughts...

I think that going with your idea of a non-binding recall petition is good. Impeachment action can ONLY be brought by Congress while a recall is something that can originate with the people themselves. If we were to do an impeach Bush petition it would have to be presented to Congress, which isn't as big a splash as presenting it to Bush. Also, the recall ties in nicely with what is going on here in CA.

As I mentoned in the other thread, I think there are plenty of groups already in existence that can be utilized to make this happen. As for "sponsoring" the petition, I think it is the American people who are sponsoring it, the ultimate grassroots group. If the point is to get people to sign a petition to "recall" Bush, then I feel that can be started with very little effort and accomplished quite easily. If the intent is to start a whole new organization, then I fear that by the time

- a steering committee is formed
- domain name is registered and website created
- a database of information is created
- a name is agreed on
- there has been a filing as a non-profit or PAC
- have conference calls
- meet-ups are organized across the country
- a Yahoo message board is started
- a database of petition signatures turned in has been created
- a new politcal organization is created

that IranianDem might be right -- Bush MAY be out of office! In a way, I do feel that time is of the essence -- this action needs to happen long in advance of the Presidental election campaign -- too close to it and I don't think it will get much press/have as big an impact. ("What's this recall stuff? Why not wait a few months and VOTE him out of office.")

As to the petition form, staying with the CA model is a great idea. Eligibility using that model is limited to those who are registered voters, which is where I came up with a Declaration of Solidarity that those too young or unregistered can sign. If the CA model is used but the eligibility requirements are changed to include under 18 and those folks can simply sign the same peition. That is something to think about.

I feel distribution would be best via a downloadable petition that could be copied and passed around by individuals, groups, organizations, etc. That one of the primary ways the CA Recall peitition was distributed and it worked pretty well. I think having a listing of ways to distribute the petition (look at some of my earlier posts) on a website would be a great way to inspire folks.

Ask folks for ideas on delivery -- I feel they should go directly to Bush. Where/how ever it happens, there are things to consider like access and security. The Statue of Liberty was a good idea BUT you have to go through a security check AND get on a ferry to get to the location, which is patroled by Park Service employees. I just don't think a couple of hundred people with boxes would ever be allowed on that ferry.

Anyway, those are my thoughts for now.

[nostamj]

71. "The Statue of Liberty "

I went there last week with members of my family who were visiting NYC for the first time.

I could not BELIEVE the degree of security.
I had to take off my belt (but not my shoes).
And, a guard took my cigs out of my pocket and checked the pack!

You would not be able to carry anything more than a backpack or totebag--there are size restrictions on them too.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

75. Wow!

I knew security had become tighter, but didn't know it was THAT tough!

[angka]

142. we know the reasons for impeachment

think about the smug house impeachment managers delivering their blowjob case to the senate. now think about their present hypocrisy in defending bush's impeachable offenses.

it's time to MOVE MOVE MOVE on this. you guys need hosting? i will 'host' every .PDF impeachment petition you make, with pride. email me.

[e-mail]

[Melinda]

72. These are all questions that should be discussed

This is a wonderful idea, but it needs a blueprint and more than a handful of people to implement the design.

JM, HHNF, DagmakK, anyone else who pushed this idea on the original thread and anyone else interested in volunteering real time and energy should begin at the beginning and not put the horse in front of the cart.

GET THEE TO ACTIVISM. Recruit volunteers, pm all those here who have offered, link this thread. Form the steering committee, outline the goals, and THEN undertake to make it happen.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

79. I that's exactly what is happening...

this thread IS the preliminary work -- it just really doesn't have to be as complicated as some might want to make it.

Within 24 hours the downloadable petition can be up on a completed website and ready for action, with an initial mass email ready to go out to organizations, groups, individuals who would be interested in hosting a link, passing the info on to members, organizing signature gatherers. The ball is rolling and it only gains momentum from there.

It REALLY is that simple.

And as the weeks progress more headway can be made on continuing to expand contacts and finalizing gathering/storing/delivery details.

[Melinda]

83. I just posted below and then found your response here.

1) What is the primary objective, and how is it achieved? What are your resources?

How many online (or off) efforts of this (or any other related) kind have you been involved with? How many volunteers do you have or expect to have? Do you have a centralized list of organizations that would join in this effort? How will you coordinate it all? Do you intend to do it all from a discussion board? Wouldn't this thread (idea) be better served in Activism then here? What is the URL for the website? How do you propose individuals organize signature gatherers? How will these petitions be delivered? Have you media contacts? Do you know anyone in PR? What about the costs associated with this idea/mass marketing; who will cover them? How will you handle receipts? These are all of the top of my head, but each is a valid point.

If you have undertaken anything of this type in the past, then surely you realize the work involved. Those who wish to become involved are going to need structure, and no offense intended, but your proposal falls far short.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

102. To answer some of your questions...

1) The primary objective as defined by JanMichael's original proposal is to use the California gubernatorial recall effort as an inspiration to create, distribute and deliver a Recall Bush petition, using the CA recall model.

2) This can be achieved through putting out a action call and networking with existing online and real world organizations, groups, and individuals.

3) The campaigns resources are all of the above, including every single American who is sick and tired of Bush

I have been politically active for most of my adult life, including working on local political campaigns.

As of last night I had a list of 150+ contact email addresses for organizations, groups, and individuals that might be interested in hosting a link or passing along the petition info, just waiting for a volunteer to come along (as I suggested in the original thread) and take on creating a contact database.

I didn't put this post into Activism for two reasons: the action was not yet ready to happen and because, frankly, Activism is a bit of a dead spot for traffic. GD gets much more traffic and I felt that was better for the time being while trying to hash things out.

In a prior life I worked in the film and television industry,and that involved working with advertising agencies and film publicity units.

Yes, this entire effort could be initially managed and coordinated via the Internet. It's as simple as making contacts, inspiring folks, generating traffic to the website where they could find an idea list of how/where to gather signatures, having folks download the petition and gather those signatures, then having those petitions returned.

As far as costs go, it's all about volunteers stepping forward and offering to help out sans menumeration. Chet kindly offered to do the PDF document and host the website, I volunteered to host a PO Box -- it is my belief that most of what needs to happen can be done for next to nothing. There is no need for this to be a billboard campaign, for pamphleting, tabling, any of the same old same old -- this can be about Americans downloading a file, printing it out on a piece of paper, and taking it to the streets. The only real cost I can foresee would come in in the delivery of the documents -- again, that is where volunteers step in to help.

[Melinda]

103. Thanks for responding

I applaud your efforts, HHNF, appreciate your detailed explanation, and sincerely hope you'll succeed. :)

Melinda

[Hell Hath No Fury]

112. I hope...

we, the American People, succeed.

:)

[ProudDad]

70. recall/impeach

A rose by any other name.

Since there's no provision for a binding referendum on recalling or impeaching Bush, it doesn't matter how it's worded.

If it's a spoof on the Cal. Recall, I'd agree that it could say "recall". On the other hand, since it's addressed to the persons with legal authority to bring articles of impeachment (although there's no chance they will), I thought that substituting just the word impeach for recall would be appropriate.

I don't care either way and it's a 2 minute change for me since all of my verbiage is in a Foxpro database.

Maybe anyone who wishes can produce a pdf (or rtf) and I could put them on my web site (in a private folder) and post the url to the group. We can then discuss them (or start collecting signatures on our favorite). Since it's not a "legal" thing, it doesn't matter hugely what form the signatures are on just so it looks "official".

[nostamj]

73. i think it does matter...

impeachment is a function of elected representatives

recall is a function of citizen/voters

big difference (imho)

[ProudDad]

74. Cool Done!

It's changed back.

:hi:

Here's the latest verbiage I'm using:

-------------------------------------

TO THE HONORABLE F. James Sensebrenner, Jr., Chairman, and John Conyers, Ranking Member of the U.S. House of Representatives' Committee on the Judiciary:

Pursuant to the spirit of the United States Constitution and free democracy, we the undersigned registered and qualified electors of the United States of America, respectfully state that we seek the recall and removal of George W. Bush holding the office of President, of the United States. We demand an election of a successor to that office. President of the United States.

NOTICE OF INTENTION TO CIRCULATE RECALL PETITION. TO GEORGE W. BUSH:
Pursuant to the spirit of the United States Constitution and free democracy, the undersigned registered qualified voters of the United States of America, hereby give notice that we are the proponents of a recall petition and that we intend to seek your recall and removal from the office of President of the United States, and to demand election of a successor in that office. The grounds for the recall are as follows:

Gross mismanagement of the United States finances by repeated tax cuts and policy implementation geared towards the enrichment of the top financial tier and corporations at the expense and suffering of the remaining 90% of the American people. Lying about the reasons for and conducting an illegal invasion of Iraq which needlessly endangers our men and women of the armed forces and makes us less safe. Tragically ignoring pre-9/11 security warnings by foreign and domestic intelligence sources about a possible imminent terrorist strike. Threatening our planet and very survival by severely undermining important environmental protections.

The printed names of the proponents are as follows: The People of the United States of America

Each of the undersigned states for himself/herself that he or she is a registered and qualified elector of the United States of America.

--------------------------------------

I was also planning on streamlining the collecter portion -- we don't need the whole thing as it was on the Recall Davis petitions, right? That will give room for 8-12 signatures on each page (I'll see how many when I'm done). Nez paws?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

81. Cool!

If you can do it, knock yourself out. :)

[Hell Hath No Fury]

76. I agree....

I feel this should come from the people.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

77. Chet --

check your PM.

[ProudDad]

78. PM?

You mean my inbox?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

80. Yup -- that's what I mean..

Sorry if I was confusing. :)

[Melinda]

82. Good luck with your project, but count me out.

I have posted 5 times to this thread, and each time I have been ignored by you, HHNF. You talk of a collective effort ("WE"), but I see no collective effort. It's apparent to me, and I am sure to many others, that you'd rather do things your way. This idea has such potential but I think it won't achieve any significant fruition under the auspice of any one individuals control - been there, done that, and it won't work.

I'll be watching and hoping that those who originally put the idea forward will undertake a group effort. If and when they do, I'll be happy to do what I can to carry the message out, and deliver the results to the Imposter-in-Chief. Good luck to you HHFN.

Melinda

[Hell Hath No Fury]

84. The only reason..

I stepped forward and ran with JanMichael's idea is because everyone in the original thread was talking about how nice it would be if it were to happen, but no one was DOING anything.

The poll thread was sinking like a stone so I started this one, I made suggestions, threw out ideas, and argued against ones that I didn't feel would work.

I have opinions that I express strongly -- have I threatened to "take my marbles home" if the eventual plan doesn't go as I want it? No.

[JanMichael]

86. Hey!

How about this:

1. Let's set up a Steering Committee now. I'll volunteer, whoever else wishes to is welcome.

2. Let's take all of the draft petitions, take the best from each, and settle (after getting other DU'ers opinions) on one. This could take, what, two days? Not exactly a ball breaker.

3. From that point decide how we wish to proceed.


All could be accomplished in a weeks time.

What I'd like to see is an organised collaborative effort.

Thanks for all of your hard work so far, there's much more to be done!

[Hell Hath No Fury]

104. Just let me know what you need...

and I'll make it happen! :)

[Melinda]

88. Good place to begin!!

Thanks for responding, now I feel like we are getting somewhere TOGETHER. :)

I didn't participate on JM's poll thread; frankly I didn't see it - have a link? I'd love to see what others had to say.

There's an infinite supply of resources right here on DU just waiting to be tapped, so why not begin at the beginning by taking this to Activism where we can brainstorm for a few days and get this puppy going. My suggestion to you would be to keep this thread kicked and link to the new one. Let's get a group together and begin by defining actions necessary to achieve our goal. That's the way to start. Let's kick * ass together. :)

[Tinoire]

90. A little touchy there and such heavy-handed tactics!

WTH are you in such a huff about?

[Melinda]

91. I responded to you below; see post 89

[Magical]

85. You got my signature!

Anything that helps oust the chimp.:bounce: :bounce:

[Tinoire]

87. AWESOME Work! You go girl!

I'm at work right now (so have to be short) but offer you this-

- Server space you need for a web site

- All the files you need turned into PDF (can get you a copy of the program or do it for you)

- A hot lunch to go with it if you can make it this week-end!


Count on your DU buds to help you make this one happen! For this we'll be out in the streets in a heart-beat!!



PS. Never mind the arm-chair commandos pissing on your thread. Your work and idea are fantastic! Can't you tell by all the responses ;)

[Melinda]

89. So uncalled for, good grief.

I created the PDF yesterday and uploaded it, provided the link, I offered server space, and additionally provided the link so that HHNF could d/l a program to create her own PDF's - and I was totally ignored. That's what happens when one person is stretched too thin. My time and energy are valuable too, but I was/am happy to do what I could/can for our common goals.

Calling my efforts and subsequent frustration a "pissing contest" is way out of line. HHFN inability to reply or acknowledge any of my efforts is exactly why I posted my concerns, and your response serves further to underscore the very point -- one person acting alone can not pull this off.

[diamondsoul]

92. Just a thought

I read through the thread just now, and you mentioned you'd posted 5 times previously. I looked back and didn't see them. If you deleted or something then others coming in now haven't seen what brought on your frustration, so they're just reacting based on what they see.

I was kind of befuddled by it myself, honestly.

[Melinda]

95. Three of them now say "Never Mind"

I had posted addresses to my own websites that I prefer not to be accessed by the public at large, and after a reasonable amount of time (and I was assured that HHNF was present by her posting to others), I removed them for my own web security.

In hindsight, I should have pm'd them to HHNF, however as busy as she apparently was/is, there is no guarantee that would have achieved my intended result either.

Again, I think this further serves to underscore the need for a centralized group and area in which to organize this effort.

[diamondsoul]

100. Thanks for clearing that up.

I figured there was something we weren't seeing. Peace. :)

[Tinoire]

97. I just read this thread

You deleted several of your comments leaving only "Never Mind" behind so their contents are left to the imagination.

The rest came across as condescending posts along the lines of "thank you for your fine work HHNF, now run along and let the big people play".

You may not have meant it that way but that's how it comes across.

You have to understand also that DU has had more success with individual efforts than with committees. In the 3 years I've been here, I've never once, not once, seen a committee work. Be a little more understanding of people's reluctance to set up yet another committee.

Grow a thicker skin Melinda. I'm sure you weren't ignored- sometimes people need time to think about things. You can't begrudge someone for not jumping to fast enough for you; people here are not your servants or employees.

Sometimes too many cooks can spoil the broth. If people don't know you personally, you're going to have to understand that they might need a little time to know who you are and what you really offer.

[Melinda]

101. Begrudge, ummmm, not quite.....

But I know she saw my posts, and my efforts, as well as those of others here, should have been acknowledged, again underscoring my central point: HHNF can't sucessfully organize and coordinate this movement all by herself - it takes an initial group dynamic to put all in place.

And with that I wish her - and you - the best of luck.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

106. Yes, I did see your posts...

and immediately went off to the Adobe link you sent. I got hung up there waiting to receive a confirmation email for a member ID. By the time I came back to your postings on the tread I had already been told to "never mind".

Which I did.

[eablair3]

93. Why won't the Dems get an impeachment move going?

Seems like this is an issue that the Dems and the Greens could work together on. I believe the Greens are already in favor of it. But, why won't the Dems bring this forward ion Congress.

I realize that the Dems are the minority now, but still an active impeachment campaign based on facts would generate a lot of publicity, if only the Dems and the Dem leaders would get behind. It already exists. Ramsey Clark had drafted the impeachment articles. But, the Dems won't back it.

What can be worse than lying to the nation about the need for war, and then sending troops in who kill thousands of innocents and who themselves lose hundreds with more troops being killed daily. What about obfuscating the 911 investigation?

Why won't the dems get behind this impeachment move?

[Pastiche423]

98. Already been done

http://www.votetoimpeach.org/

And there are other impeach * sites.

On edit: Spelling

[Hippo_Tron]

94. Umm I have a better idea

Instead of whineing about what Bush is doing now why don't we just kick ass in the 2004 election? That way will Bush not only be out of office but the conservatives will be speechless.

[MGKrebs]

96. Dat's cool! I'm in!

Is it downloadable yet?

The truck will have to come to Atlanta! Or maybe we could get another truck with GA/FLA/AL/MS boxes to meet up with you in Memphis or somewhere.

[Tinoire]

99. Don't forget the West Coast :) n/t

[The Zanti Regent]

105. Hey, please let me sign this too!

I'm in California and I'm sick of Arnold!

[Paragon]

107. I hate to be the party pooper, but...

...why would anyone bother to sign something that's "non-binding"?

Sorry, but if it doesn't have SOME kind of real demand or impetus - it's just a gag.

I don't see millions of people participating in something that might be easily dismissed as impish revenge for Gray Davis.

Honestly, I'm trying to help here. If it's just a gag, treat it as such -- it would be a funny site that would probably get a lot of traffic. But if you're serious, this idea needs some more weight behind it.

[JanMichael]

110. I never considered it a "gag".

It is what it is, a display of dismay, a cry against the lunatics that are running the asylum.

The attention that a well planned petition like this could be amazing. 12,000,000 signatures? That's make an impact in the media whether they like it or not.

That's why.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

111. I agree completely...

I think that the gesture is an important one. For me it illustrates the lack of power (short of election) regular folks have on a national scale when it comes to our highest leader.

I think it says to Bush, if the citizens had the option, we would kick your butt out before the next election.

Everyone I talk to in offline life about this are ready to sign on the dotted line -- they think it has value.

[nostamj]

113. it's 'political theatre'

a media event.

what *can* make it stronger is the legitimacy of the signatures.

targeting groups like veterans, military families, 9/11 survivors, etc. *and* getting their explicit endorsement will add to the power of the action.

the pure 'physicality' of this idea makes it exponentially more important that any online petition.

and, oh yeah, QUESTION W, question his very legitimacy and every crime that has followed the BushCo coup.

Grey Davis is a jaywalker compared to BushCo's genocides and lesser crimes...

[Hell Hath No Fury]

115. Man...

"and, oh yeah, QUESTION W, question his very legitimacy and every crime that has followed the BushCo coup.

Grey Davis is a jaywalker compared to BushCo's genocides and lesser crimes..."

You just said a WHOLE lotta truth!

[nostamj]

117. "You just said a WHOLE lotta truth!"

thanks!

and, I did it with half my brain (at least!) tied behind my back...

(seriously, ?W and this idea have serious synergy. let's use it)

[Hell Hath No Fury]

108. A new thread...

in Activism for you --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=106&topic_id=1426

[jackson]

114. Great idea - here are some petitions already out there against Bush & co

You have a great idea to really take this public and make it a big event. I'll be glad to help deliver them - contact me at [e-mail].
I found and even started a few recall petitions of my own after being inspired by California's recall. Thanks again to all who signed and circulated these petitions against Republicans – the one I started to expel DeLay a mere ten days ago is closing in on 2,000 signatures. A few, such as those against Bush British toy poodle Tony Blair and Florida Chief Thief Katherine Harris, are new. Keep it up…..

Petitions to impeach George W. Bush: http://www.votetoimpeach.org/
http://www.petitiontoimpeach.com/petition.html
Petition to impeach Bush and Dick Cheney: http://democrats.com/elandslide/petition.cfm?campaign=impeach
Petition to indict Bush and Cheney: http://indictbushcheney.org/

Petition to totally recall Calif. Gov. Wannabe Arnold Schwarzenegger: http://www.petitiononline.com/schwarze/petition.html
Petition to impeach Texas Gov. Rick Perry: http://www.e-thepeople.org/petition/7225/view
Petition to oust Florida Gov. Jeb Bush: http://www.petitiononline.com/JebLies/petition.html

Petition to expel House Majority Leader Tom DeLay: http://www.petitiononline.com/tdl0000/petition.html
Petition to oust Florida Rep. Katherine Harris: http://www.petitiononline.com/voteFrd/petition.html

Petition to remove British PM Tony Blair: http://www.petitiononline.com/noblair/petition.html

Petition against the Republican agenda in Congress: http://www.boycott-republicans.com/
Petition to stop the redistricting of Congressional seats in Texas eight years too early: http://www.savetexasreps.com/petition.php

[Hell Hath No Fury]

116. Cool!

I think I signed a few of those. :)

Keep you posted!

[nostamj]

118. "online" polls or petitions....

will NOT have the real impact of the physicality of these HARD COPY petitions and the 'theatre' of their delivery.

[JanMichael]

119. Both. Why not both?

We'll obviously have a faster return on downloaded petitions that people mail in. Then once we get some strong publicity we can reap those benefits with live time petitions.

Just a thought.

[nostamj]

120. my point is...

'online' polls carry little weight.

a few millions names--HARD COPY--carry much more *weight* (in every sense of the word!)

[JanMichael]

121. True I suppose.

The downloaded forms are "hard copy" so I guess that'll do.

Didn't MoveOn have a fairly uncorruptable online form for their "Primary"?

I'm just trying to loosen up the requirements:evilgrin:

[nostamj]

122. yes, MoveOn had sophisticated software

this project (imho, and just like ?W) does NOT work if it is only and INTERNET happening.

BOXES and BOXES and BOXES of real signatures boltered by legitimate voices (veteran, 9/11, etc)

that could get press. an internet poll (that wasn't done by the presstitute in question) will not.

[JanMichael]

123. Whoa! I never meant to suggest ignoring the real petition drive.

People on the streets and such. Protests, veterins, Unions, schools, etc.

I'm just trying to figure out how to exploit the enormous power of that internet thingy.

Organising, fine. But I want MORE! MORE!

[Hell Hath No Fury]

124. Is there anyway...

to have people sign online then have it printed out as a hard copy?

I'm thinking about those blast faxes I sign that have a text regarding what the action is about, then a place you fill in your name and info.

If it's possible it might make it easier for folks to sign the petition and yet have the big boxes of paper to make the point with.

Of course, this would be in addition to the downloadable, real world petitions with lots of bee-yoo-tee-full signatures on them.

[DagmarK]

125. HHNF: Diplomacy and kid gloves hasn't seemed to work

Hell:

I am appalled that you have in effect hijacked this project; your dictatorial attitude is exemplified in just about every response you have given to others in regard "your" project. Your language is revealing: No; I have done it already; that won't work; that will take too long; that is unnecessary; no time to do X yet, I need Y done; when I get X done I will let you know. And the cream of the crop leads in this thread: "discuss amongst yourselves," which clearly indicates "screw you all.....talk all you want 'amongst yourselves but not with ME'...here's your damn ACTIVISM thread that I have been forced to provide....meanwhile "I" will be carrying on with "my" project.

You outlined your very impressive experience with political grassroots work. Kudos to you. But I have to ask: has any campaign ever asked you to come back for the succeeding election? I would find that hard to believe based on your attitude and actions in the first 24 hours of this project. Your attitude is astounding. I feel like we have a little George Bush on our hands! How ironic -- little george working to oust big george!

I realize you couldn't give a damn what I think about you -- and you have proven you don't give a damn about any ONE of my ideas, which you so cleverly listed out so nicely in your "George will be out via the 2004 election by the time we finished all that running around" list. I will take that as a personal jab and an affront. Message received!

Let me throw out a few considerations re this project:

How much paper do you think 12 million signatures will take? How much do you think that weighs? Do you think it might be OVERWEIGHT for whatever truck you might drive to DC? Do you think there are ICC rules in regard to that? Do you think that MAYBE we might want a COPY of the petitions to retain? Or do we just hand it all over to Bush to shred and there never be a record or evidence of what was accomplished? Do you think that signers might want to have some sort of idea WHO is taking control of their names and addresses? Like MAYBE we do need an organization (that people can trace as opposed to just some lady in San Francisco) just to lend credence and a sense of security? (I don't sign a petition for anything unless I am pretty sure it's an above-board organization that is somehow findable and accountable should something happen to my personal information). Do you think that having DU heads in regions or states might be a good idea for the simple reason that there can be some FOLLOW-UP by those heads with the circulators? Do you think that maybe 1000s of people might download the petition and maybe even get signatures but NEVER get around to sending them in? Do you think that local control to some extent might curb that tendency? And therefore, we will get a lot more signatures. Do you think that a state head of the effort might be able to create formal petition drives?

Seems to me that you have the outgoing petition stuff down but have zero controls in terms of getting the petitions back and MANAGED in an organized and affordable and logical fashion to ensure that we have a chance of bringing it all together in the end. It's like you are just throwing a boomerang up into the air and hoping that it will get the right spin and will come back to you. You are missing a huge part of the picture.

But the greatest problem with how you have handled "your" pet project is that you have obliterated the part about community and grassroots spirit. I have some philosophical thoughts on that. The greater the unity and spirit of the original foundation for any grassroots movement, the greater chance it has to grow and prosper. And you have all but snuffed it out.

I thought about this all evening before writing this post. And I concluded that if this were any other activism project, I'd just stop reading your threads and move on to something. But this idea was born by someone else. It is such a wonderful idea......and just so unique, that there is no way for me (and I am sure many others) to just let you have your marble game and we go off and do our own similar project. A RECALL effort (aptly coined as political theater by JanMichael) is unique and there really can't be more than ONE effort. Therefore, I am going to put in a bit of time trying to get you to back off and let the process become a grassroots movement. Because it would be absurd of me to allow some chick on DU to hijack something so fantastic when I know based on MY experiences that you are going to create a little stir for a little while and this whole thing is going to go down the tubes. (That is NOT a challenge for you to prove me wrong, btw!)

As pissy as I am sure this post is going to make you, I am still going to ask you to remove yourself from this project if you can't back off and let a group of interested people come forward (with you as a total equal with everyone else; translation: you don't get line item VETO power) and let us grow this campaign in a natural, organic and holistic fashion.

I expect you and a few of your little friends to tell me to fuck off. But if there are any other DUers who are observing this project who feel the same as I, PLEASE SPEAK UP. There can only be ONE recall project.

Your approach is reckless and disorganized and dictatorial. I take notice of your sig line. No shit, sherlock!

[Ani Yun Wiya]

127. A reply to your post:

"I am appalled that you have in effect hijacked this project"

How is it "hijacking" to discuss something that needs doing?

"How much paper do you think 12 million signatures will take? How much do you think that weighs?"

If we are talking 8.5 x 11 then 12 million sheets would amount to 24,000 reams of paper, which would weigh 120,000 pounds.
And if they are stacked 20 reams high it would take 50 pallets of 480 reams each, which I think might just about fit in a semi.
I am not sure about weight limitations on the roads to D.C., but give me till the place opens in the morning and I'll check.

"Do you think that MAYBE we might want a COPY of the petitions to retain? "

Wouldn't it be simple for a person who signs a copy to just print out two and keep one for their own records?

"Do you think that signers might want to have some sort of idea WHO is taking control of their names and addresses?"

As it is that signatures are unique and that adresses are not necessarily required, why SHOULD any signatory have a gripe?

"Like MAYBE we do need an organization (that people can trace as opposed to just some lady in San Francisco) just to lend credence and a sense of security?"

Tell me what "organization" has greater credence than the voice of the people?

BTW, Paul Revere did NOT need a committee, a fax machine, a phone or any of that; he got on his horse and did what was required!

[noiretextatique]

129. maybe i'm missing something...but your attack on HHNF is uncalled for

as was melinda's, but she had the decency to apologize. :wtf: is wrong with you folks? so HHNF started a thread, so she has some ideas as to how to proceed...so what?

[DagmarK]

134. Noiret/all: LINK to the original thread - HHNF is not the brainchild

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=161353

And it's her omission of a reference to this link that exemplifies the crux of the problem, quite frankly.

Please read the thread at this link and judge again as to whether a few of us are out of line.

Looking at this very thread sans the other one -- I can see how folks might think that Melinda and I came out of no where with unjustiied WTF attacks......

It is also interesting to note that I was a very active participant in the original thread and exchanged a few PMs with Hell and then suddenly she just blew me off and didn't have the decency to even tell me where and when this 2nd thread was getting started. Even yesterday I PMd her and said....."hey.....can we get a volunteer committee on this? let me know." No decency for a response. I am WOW'd at her diplomatic and rallying skills! And that was in the 1st 24 hours.

Not only that......every single idea I had was VETOED by her.

The only thing that is going to make me back off is for the original brainchild of this wonderful idea to come in and say.......HELL.....take over. So......JanMichael, where do you stand?

[Melinda]

137. Good grief - I did NOT attack HHNF.

I'm direct, to the point, and blunt at times to a fault, but I did not "attack" HHNF, nor did I "apologize" for this alleged "attack"; I had nothing to apologize for. You misunderstood, mischaracterized, or perhaps allowed your own filters to get in the way of your perceptions, so let me try to explain one final time...

My posts were not an attack on HHNF, but a critique of the process she decided to use.

Again, let me be clear: I responded to her initial call for a pdf, web storage and input, and w/in minutes I had created and provided most of what she asked for on this very thread. As a result of her inability to acknowledge my efforts coupled with security concerns, I decided to withdraw from further attempts at participating in this effort, and I then came back and posted my reasoning.

There was absolutely nothing personal intended toward or posted to HHNF, and it's a shame that dialogue can't take occur on DU without negative aspersions.

If I were to "attack", there would be no ambiguity or confusion - trust me. But no one here is my enemy, and I have yet to "attack" anyone on DU, and I don't know why I ever would... hopefully we will each of us try to remember that "WE" are not the enemy, and concert our efforts where they belong.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

126. Excellent idea!

This can be done and rather easily at a grassroots level.

I see where willing signatories could be gathered from:

1. Democrats.
2. Greens.
3. Independents.
4. Dissatisfied Republicans.
5. As well as anyone who did not vote for *.

It may well be possible to collect many more than 12,000,000 signatures.

[DagmarK]

131. COLLECT being the operative word........

*

[Hell Hath No Fury]

133. Moooove it on over to.....

Activism -- the new thread that needs new ideas!

:hi:

[noiretextatique]

128. kick for hell

:kick:

:hi: it's a great idea...let me know how i can help :hi:

[Hell Hath No Fury]

132. Head on over to the new thread in Activism...

this thread is getting a little unmanageable in length.

:hi:

[DagmarK]

130. Okie Dokie.......

To answer a few questions:

*it is hijacking when you take another person's idea and appoint yourself BOSS and appoint everyone else as "yes men" or folks to be discarded.

*more questions re that semi truck for the little researcher: how much does a semi cost to rent? the insurance? the driver (cause ya need the right license and credentials). How much gas would that use (oh gee.....I guess we aren't really concerned with FUEL ECONOMY -- Iraqi oil will be flowing freely by the time this takes place).

*I wonder: is there a more affordable, streamlined, fuel efficient way to get petitions to DC? And wouldn't that be determined on where and how the petitions are housed and managed? Ah, physics rules again -- it actually matters how everything is set up to be amassed to determine how it can be distributed!

*Also in re to hijacking the project. Ya think there might be a contingent of people on DU who might just want to man this project AS A TEAM of concerned Americans? No value in that, I guess, right? To that poster ain, have you read the very first thread on this? Funny that HHNF didn't put a link to it in this thread, nor advise in the first thread the link to this continued discussion. Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmm. Find that other thread and see if you see a pattern of some chick just walking into it and taking over. But someone I get the impression that you probably always defer to someone else and act as cheerleader.

*Well, you can call me "out of line" if you want.......it sure makes YOUR responsibilities minimal.

LINK to original thread, original idea, and the REAL AUTHOR of the original idea: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=161353

[ProudDad]

135. Hi folks.

I've developed a first pass of a petition. I've written two versions of the preamble. One is a fairly straight-forward copy of the Davis petition. The other contains a satire of a "response" from bush the lesser.

There's a link to them posted on the front page of my music site for your perusal: http://tinyurl.com/jz5c. There's a link to an html version of the petition followed by larger type of the two preambles. There's also a link to an .RTF version of the same thing that can be downloaded. I haven't had a chance to convert them to PDF. I'll do that tomorrow and post the PDF.

I'm thinking that our task is easier than some may think. We probably need;

1) Petition(s) - Anyone who wishes should give it a shot and we'll post them (Maybe have a vote -- but we want something that people can start using at events soon).
a) Does it really matter that the petitions are the same?
b) Just so that there are 10 signatures on each to ease counting.
c) A motif or style or logo would be fun so that people could
start recognizing the "Prank". We could create posters, etc.
using the motif.
d) a web site - (a very easy part for me)

2) P.O. Boxes and/or addresses to receive them.

3) Storage place(s)

4) Develop a delivery plan;
a) Have them all sent here and then across country?
b) Regional collection points and then a trek to Wash? (I like this)
c) Any other ideas?
d) The more publicity, the better

5) Press Releases and Publicity ASAP. Spokesperson(s).

6) Have fun with it, damn it!



More stray thoughts:

Dog the recall campaign -- solicite people to have the petition at any debates, appearences, etc. of the 180 or so people running for Davis' job (as well as Davis).

People can make up names and addresses. It doesn't matter whether it's real people or not. We just want 12,000,000 names in someone's handwriting (not the same person, that would be very tiring).

We could make it clear that we're not going to use any information on the forms for anything else -- no salesperson will call? Of course, what bush and asscroft do with them is up to them. I, for one, don't mind padding my FBI file a little.

IMHO, the "paper" is irrelevent. It's the publicity that's important, the spoof, the humor, and the tie in with the Davis Recall while it's in the news. The logistics will take care of themselves. We could post a dozed petition forms and let people use whichever one they like -- it's not legal or binding so who cares?

jackson's post demonstrates to me that there are numerous "deadly serious" attempts at impeaching, indicting, recalling all kinds of people. We need this kind of prank to rise above the noise but put the issues in front of the people. Mainly the bush cabal's lying, stealing, murder and usurption of Constitutional Rights.

[DagmarK]

136. HHNF will let ya know......

but you might want to post this over in her Activism thead.....

[WillyT]

138. Wow, So Far This Is Going Swimmingly Well, LOL, Really !!!

Great ideas here all, and Hell, I appreciate your efforts. Please let me know what I can do to help.

Now, if we can just get certain people to remember that this is a MESSAGE BOARD, as in I leave a message to be read and hopefully responded to at a LATER TIME, we might have less friction about who's not paying attention to who in a fast enough manner. If that's what ya need, join a chat room, more instant gratification there, ya know???

Nor might we chastise anyone for picking up the ball and running with it, for not giving enough proper and weighty tribute to the originator of the idea.

The idea, overall, is to get rid of the usurpers of Democarcy ensconced in OUR White House!!! Before you start polishing your speeches, and picking out the gowns for the Victory celebrations, ya might want to complete the missions first!!!

You have my permission to use any ideas I ever come up with that might help to this end (don't hold yer breath, LOL), and you don't have to give me one ounce of credit, none. Also, if I don't repond quickly enough for somebody, give me a PM, and I'll get on it as soon as I come home from one of my 3 shitty jobs, OK???

If you, and I, and hopefully all of us, can dislodge this malignancy from our country, we will have the thanks of the entire world, and frankly, that's good enough for me!!!

:grr:

No wonder the left chases its tail...

[WillyT]

139. Damn, I Thought That Was Pretty Good, And Not One Response, LOL !!!

:evilgrin::smoke::hippie:

:shrug:

[Pastiche423]

140. "...a message to be read and hopefully responded to at a LATER TIME"

Sorry, I couldn't resist! lol

Your message was great and what has been needed on this thread.

I thank you.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~pastiche2/Peace!.gif

[WillyT]

141. ROFLMAO !!! --- Toooooo Good !!!

Perfect, LOL!!!

:hi: