NAFTA .......we were sold out.........plain and simple.

[cthrumatrix]

NAFTA verdict undeniable

http://pages.zdnet.com/sartre65/wrack/id38.html

snip....
The surrender of manufacturing employment as a sacrifice to the Free Traders, has forced this mass exodus of layed-off Americans - our own displaced persons. If you believe this is an intrinsic result, inevitable and unalterable; your confidence in political elites and their distortion of economic self-interest must mean you only buy Chinese. National suicide is not natural. But for the Free Trader mesmerized by visions of bountiful prosperity, produced under the illusion of backwater cheap labor, just what happens when the cash runs out because jobs left for overseas?

The big picture is confirmed by Pat Choate and cited by Mr Buchanan in his flagship magazine: “In the 1970s, mounted a decades-long deficit of $75 billion. . . . In the 1980s, the deficit soared to $843 billion as Japan began to take away our industries. . . . In the 1990s, that trade deficit doubled to $1.7 trillion. . . . At this pace, we’re probably going to have a $6 trillion cumulative deficit in this decade - and that’s probably an understated number given the pace we are losing our manufacturing base.”

NAFTA is the conveyance upon which the outflow hits home in the most visible way. The virtual bankruptcy of California has a fundamental linkage to the damage done by NAFTA. The best test of loyalty to real Americans is demonstrated by one’s attitude about the Free Trade rip-off. Politicians need to follow the wisdom of the economic miracle that built our country. SELF Interest in national economic independence and self sufficiency. If you want solutions, stop the outflow, rebuild U.S. industry and create domestic jobs.

snip

Where are the supporters now...? You know it sucks when you even have Pat Buchanan sounding off.

"Sure, NAFTA was really a wonderful deal for America. Two years after we negotiated and signed it, our trade surplus is gone, we've got a $15 billion trade deficit with Mexico, 300,000 jobs have gone south, the Florida winter tomato industry is on its back, illegal immigration is soaring into this country, Mexico is the prime source of narcotics and drugs, and my good friend Sen. Dole negotiated a $50 billion bailout with Bill Clinton for the regime that brought this all about. "

Pat Buchanan


And now we have CAFTA being cooked up...when will this crap stop.

[paulsbc]

1. so

Perot was correct?

[cherryperry]

2. as

was Nader, but what do you mean by "so"? That makes it sound like a small thing. IT'S NOT!!!

[paulsbc]

3. just wondering

I actually voted for Perot, and many ridiculed me for it. I bought what he said about NAFTA, and again was scorned. Turns out he, and I, were correct. You know, sort of feels good to be right once in a while, to bad I had hoped to be wrong given the people out of work because of it...

[SharonAnn]

11. Yes, that "giant sucking sound" is real, Perot was right!

However, the CEO's who moved the jobs to the "cheap labor" locations have been paid plenty of money and they're very well-off, thank you very much.

[cthrumatrix]

4. this is corporatism 101...writing our laws to favor them....screwing us

I don't know how in the heck you can look at this any different.

It's not a single party...they "own" both parties when it comes to votes of treaties.

[DagmarK]

5. What really is mucked up about this ...........

is the fact that many of the countries with which we have a trade deficit.....their economies are dependent on the strength of the dollar. So............ we go down the tubes...so do they. No one wins at the end of this ponzi scheme. Granted, the EC will no doubt come to their rescue.....

[peacetalksforall]

6. Serious questions...do employees of American corporations

who are Indian or Irish pay American taxes? Seriously...

If our jobs went overseas to people who earn about 1/4 or 1/3 of what we made, do they pay taxes on what they earn or what we would have earned?

Seriously.

[cthrumatrix]

8. as a US ex-pat working overseas...you pay taxes there/here

The people working on visa's in this country pay taxes...pay social security etc....

[Democat]

10. Is he talking about expats or citizens of other countries?

If they are American citizens, that's a different issue.

Most of the people working overseas are not Americans. :)

[Democat]

9. They pay taxes according to the laws of their country

Do Nissan employees in the U.S. pay taxes to the Japanese government?

[SharonAnn]

12. Citizens of those countries pay no U.S. taxes if they're working

in that country, even if the company they work for is ultimately a U.S. company.

[Democat]

14. It's the same for U.S. citizens working for foreign companies in the U.S.

Imagine if all U.S. employees of non U.S. companies had to pay taxes to two governments.

[Ein]

7. No doubt.

And Big Dog Clinton FOUGHT for NAFTA, unlike anything else of meaning he passed. Sell .... Out.

[cherryperry]

13. I agree! n/t

[peacetalksforall]

15. I am being facetious

We were the employees of the corporations.

We paid taxes.

Many of our jobs have gone overseas.

Those new employees in India, Ireland, Malta or wherever - are NOT paying taxes to the United States.

Or are they?

Doubtful.

Who pays for our country?

The bigger the corporation, the fewere taxes they pay? Wasn't one of Enron's tax breaks (refund?) larger than what they made in a comparable period?

I guess Lotto winners, the two bottom levels of wage earners, and the stars are paying for everything.

[peacetalksforall]

16. This question is not about ex-pats.

and it's not about what people in other countries pay to their own country.

[cthrumatrix]

18. jobs gone overseas = no taxes paid in US = higher burden on you/me

this is the problem....the corporations make out like bandits and the workers get screwed...unless your the new hire in India earning $12,000 for the $70,000 white collar US job you just took.

So ...no taxes collected for education...roads...etc

[Democat]

19. They pay taxes that go to education and roads in their country

It's just like when someone in America works for Nissan or Daimler Chrysler. Those Americans pay taxes to the American system, not to the country where the company is based.

Do you think that Americans should pay taxes to foreign governments when they work for a company that isn't American?

[cherryperry]

17. Just remembered!

I was tryng to get assistance with MSN, but since I have dial-up, I would try what each Tech offered and it took 10 techs located in a callcenter in INDIA before I finally, just by sheer accident I guess, got an American who gave me one simple thing which would have solved everything from the beginning and all was well.

Please don't think I have anything against Indians or any other workers of the world.

I'm just saying that a callcenter for MSN located out of the USA is absolutely ridiculous along with absolutely WRONG. But, what the heck, gives Gates a few extra bucks, right?

[ConservativeDemocrat]

20. You actually believe Pat Buchanan?

The man is a certified racist, economic idiot, and bush supporter.

He predicted NAFTA would send the U.S. down in flames by 1998. Instead, because we had Democrats in office, the economy did fine. Now we have Bush and suddenly it isn't huge tax breaks to the wealthy, laying to get us into wars, and piling on enormous deficits, that got us in trouble. No. It's NAFTA.

Look people. There are certainly real problems with completely unrestricted trade, but NAFTA isn't even that. I wouldn't go jumping in bed with a guy who opposed workers right to strike, who gloated about Ronald Reagan's firing of the Air Traffic Controllers, and has ties with anti-Mexican hate groups. Nearly every economist says his nostrums are bunk. Maybe you should believe them.

- C.D.

[cthrumatrix]

21. No..I believe facts...and the facts are US jobs are leaving.

We can pull data all night to show the numbers...and they don't lie. NAFTA or no treaty...corporations are outsourcing jobs overseas and/or simply closing down manufacturing plants in search of cheaper labor.

What was made in Mexico is now threatened by rates in China. As long corporations make more $$$ they can give a crap about us.

[dfong63]

22. you said it, pal