Let's start a Pray for Kerry website !

[vetwife]

God loves everyone !..We should do it !
Let us just see how they spin we have people on the left prayin for Peace !

[drdigi420]

1. claiming to believe in a god hurts our credibility

i prefer a VOTE for Kerry website

[jjmalonejr]

2. Uh...how does claiming to believe in God hurt our credibility?

That's a new one on me.

[freetobegay]

3. Thas a new one on me also.

[Zynx]

5. You have to understand just how many atheists there are on this site.

They tend to view those who believe in God as ignorant or downright stupid. That's not all atheists or even most, but there are those who think that religion is at the root of all problems in the world and they are scary people.

[jjmalonejr]

7. Oh, I understand that many on this board I atheists, and that's fine.

I just wanted the poster to explain to me why expressing a belief in God automatically damages ones credibility.

I'm still waiting....

[Zynx]

8. Many atheists view religion as inherrently stupid.

That's why he says that it would hurt our credibility. Frankly I find it insulting, but maybe that's just me.

[jjmalonejr]

14. You and I are on the same page.

I'm still waiting for the poster to explain himself or herself to me, though. I'm not religious, but I do believe in God.

So, this is damaging to my credibilty?

I'm still interested to know why.

[Cleita]

11. Boo. Are you scared yet?

Just because we question the fact that religious people may not be as infallible as they would like us to believe they are in how they would run the world, suddenly makes us scary? Be happy we atheists are here to question your gods and your beliefs, as well as the gods and beliefs of others, or you may find yourself worshipping a god you don't believe in while starring at the barrel of a gun sometime in the future.

What I find is scary, is religion saying that questioning the word of god as given through his ministers and priests, comes from Satan. If you don't believe exactly what they tell you then you are being led by the devil. I find that really scary.

[Zynx]

16. I strongly resent that characterization of religion and my beliefs.

You are making a biased and biggoted statement about me and my beliefs without knowing a thing about me. For someone who places such a high value on knowledge and is supposedly so much better informed, you made a very poorly informed statement.

I am refering to those atheists who believe that religion is the root of all problems. I have seen those very words written on these boards before and that confuses me because around 100 million died last century at the hands of atheists(Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot to name a few).

Religious fundementalism frightens me too because it spreads hatred and ignorance when religion is fundementally about love and truth. Those you speak of are not true believers, but instead are perverters of my, and others', faith.

[Cleita]

24. I have no problem with what you want to believe in but

don't be calling people names who don't agree with your beliefs. Whether you realize it or not this is what causes the root of all those problems. Your bigotry and bias is as big as flying a red flag. There are some of us who don't believe in the gods and religions of today and until you religious folk can come up with some good scientific proof for your beliefs, don't accuse others who don't agree with you of being scary.

[jjmalonejr]

27. What are you talking about?

This whole thing started when a poster mocked the original post by claiming that one who expresses a belief in God or prays has no credibility and hurts the credibility of others.

I'm not "religious folk," but I do resent bigotry whether it's expressed by an atheist or a fundamentalist. No one debased your choice to not believe in God or to pray or made any comment about that choice.

[Cleita]

28. Really? Read the previous posts just a little more carefully.

Better than that, pretend the post was made by an atheist and called the X-tians scary and that they call the atheists stupid. In my whole life I have never put anyone down for their practice of their religion, yet I am constantly being attacked for not having a religion.

[jjmalonejr]

34. I understand what you were responding to...

My beef isn't really with you anyway, so I apologize to you.

My original beef was with the poster who said that people who believe in God have no credibility and I'm still waiting for a real response, not a demeaning "purple dragons" comment.

For the record, I'm not really a religious person, although I do believe in God. I just get really down on people who have an attitude that somehow their choice to NOT believe in God is somehow intellectually superior to another's choice to believe in God. That kind of self-righteousness is just as offensive to me as the self-righteousness of fundamentalists who insist that their believe system is the only one in the world worthy of consideration.

Anyway, I didn't intend to attack you, so if you're cool with me, I'm cool with you.

[Cleita]

36. Peace.

It is in short supply, isn't it? Yeah, I'm cool with you.

[jjmalonejr]

40. Awesome.

You're good people in my book.

[Cheswick2.0]

41. what is scary

fundamentalist intolerance is always scary whether it is fundamentalist religious or fundamental atheist.

[DieboldMustDie]

43. I would guess that very few religious people...

see themselves as being infallible. Admittedly the rigid dogmatists you find "scary" -- as do I -- hold a great deal of political power today, but they are not representative of all religious people, or even of all Christians. Remember that Martin Luther King Jr. was a Baptist preacher too.

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

68. Religion has nothing to do with God

[drdigi420]

9. The same way claiming to believe in purple dragons would

We should stick with reality.

[KittyWampus]

10. What Does Prayer/Meditation Have To Do With Purple Dragons?

[Zynx]

12. He thinks those who believe in God are idiots.

I think he made that perfectly clear.

[Cleita]

15. You're the only person so far who has mentioned the word stupid.

On the other hand you are accusing atheists of things that seem to be only in your mind.

[Zynx]

18. He said it would "undermine our credibility". What else do you think that

means? He is implying that religion is inherently ridiculous. I have been called stupid by enough atheists over the years to know that this is not an invention of my mind.

[KittyWampus]

20. Pitiful What This Thread Has Degenerated Into

The original respondant was dismissive in tone to the notion of prayer/spirituality.

Such a tone says more about that posters own neurotic need to debase an otherwise high-minded suggestion.

[jjmalonejr]

23. Amen, cryingshame

I smell someone with an intellectual superiority complex

[jjmalonejr]

21. This isn't an argument between atheists and non-atheists.

Both are entitled to believe either way and I don't think the difference of opinion will be settled anytime soon.

I'm interested to know why praying and believing in God is damaging to one's credibility.

Still waiting....

[jjmalonejr]

17. I never said anything about purple dragons, nor did the original poster.

Your own arrogant self-righteousness is just as disgusting as the self-righteousness of fundamentalists.

Believe me, you're no better than the Bible thumpers.

[Deja Q]

6. We need to say we're inclusive of Christians, not exclusive.

Play the repukes at their own game, except it's not a game to us. We need to be honest, sincere, and serious in our persentation.

[Skip Intro]

30. One of the most absurd statements I've read on DU in a while

I wonder what other groups under the big Dem tent you feel "hurt our credibility" simply by being themselves.

[KittyWampus]

4. This Is A Golden Idea! I Love It & Hope Someone Goes For It.

such a great thought.

Please, someone who knows how, start a Pray for Kerry website! :)

[Eloriel]

13. Let's not -- but if you insist on floating the idea anyway

Could you PUH-LEEZ put your freakin' Kerry threads in the GD2004 forum? I'm getting pretty damned sick of the religion threads here in GD too. There are other more appropraite forums for both.

I CAN'T STAND KERRY -- I loathe him in precisely the same way I loathe Bush, different ONLY in degree -- and I'm getting real sick of having to be force-fed his name and news and other topics about him here in GD when there's a whole goddamn forum where that shit can go, and where I NEVER go. Why do I never go there? Because I CAN'T STAND KERRY.

And yeah, you bet I'll hid this thread.

[jjmalonejr]

26. Thanks for stopping in to comment.

Jesus loves you.

[freetobegay]

29. There can be Kerry posts in GD if we like, depends on how

He is talked about.

[JI7]

42. did anyone force you to open this thread ?

[blm]

55. How mature.

Especially since this site is dedicated to defeating Bush and Kerry is the nominee whose job, and OUR job as Bush opponents is to do just that.

What kind of spolied mind would put selfish vanity over that important goal?

If it took 100 years I could never be so vain to coddle MY wants over the needs of the rest of the nation and the world.

Since you bring it up, aren't there other forums for you to spew your venomous hatred for Kerry? Isn't DU a place where we support and WANT the Democratic nominee to defeat Bush?

[Alerter_]

69. Democrats have to vote for Kerry, not love him

nor refrain from criticizing him. Or hating him. And expressing it. Blind obedience is for the other party. Being the Dem nominee is hard work. I assume Kerry is up to it.

[blm]

73. Openly hating him at a site devoted to defeat Bush

is plain old STUPID.

Anyone is certainly free to be STUPID, and some of us are free to point out how STUPID and UNproductive they are in regard to OUR greater goal of defeating Bush.

[GreenPartyVoter]

19. Positive thoughts for Kerry!

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[Zynx]

22. Jesus was a liberal.

There is no doubt about that. He was a socialist in fact. :)

[GreenPartyVoter]

25. YEP :^D

[vetwife]

33. Well I didn't know it would get this reaction ...didn't mean to start a

War. I never said Christian. Maybe I should have made myself a little more clear. Atheism is a religion. You choose not to believe. Pray for.... would not be strictly for christians. There are over 200 religions in this country and some feel their faith has been hijacked. Whether one likes Kerry or not is not the point.
Kerry is the one going up against Bush and the Bush people think they own God, Country and Flag. If we don't start pushing back they will still call us out as infidels, not much different from Osama's bunch. there are people of faith who are tolerat of all religions and believe in their right to believe or not believe but who could not want Peace? For believers, and there are quite a few on the left of all faiths......they don't like the religious right hijacking God. Whichever God they choose to pray to. That is what I meant ! People will actually claim that God was on Bush's side because they prayed for him. Well God is not on any party's side. But look what happened to Bobby Kennedy. Look what happened to Dean when he went to church with Carter. They made fun of him. THEY DON"T OWN GOD ! AND THEY SHOULD HAVE TO LIVE WITH THE FACT THERE ARE PRAYING PEOPLE OF ALL FAITHS WHO DON'T LIKE GEORGE BUSH'S POLICIES ! That was my point !

[KittyWampus]

35. It's A Beautiful Idea VetWife & My Lament Is Not Knowing How To Start

a Pray for Kerry website.

The Religious Right does NOT own Spirituality.

And Prayer/Meditation/Positive Imaging is HEALTHY and DESIRABLE.

Don't let the bullies get you down.

:grouphug:

[GreenPartyVoter]

49. No war with me on that count :^)

[blm]

56. It's a great idea, vetwife.

I'm an atheist, and think your idea has great merit for the millions of Christians, Jews, Hindus, Wiccans and Muslims who will be voting for Kerry.

[struggle4progress]

31. How about passing the collection plate for Kerry first?

[Oddman]

32. How about a Donate to Kerry website . . .

That seems like it will do a lot more good!!!!

Oh wait, there is a Donate to Kerry website!!!

http://www.johnkerry.com

How practical!


I ain't a prayin' fer no John Kerry!

[vetwife]

38. Thanks...I don't get bullied...I think we should fight with everything

People who know me and all you have to do is google my name..know I am an activist, a veterans advocate, an advocate for the disabled, put out a Take it Back Cd, register voters and I am a person of faith but I don't cram it down folks throat like the right is doing and I have a lot of atheist friends. The whole thing is about free will and fighting them on their own turf. I think people have a right to believe or not believe as they choose but what I don't think is right is the republican party saying the only people who have faith or got to church are conservatives and that is a LIE !

[Catt03]

37. I think it is a good idea too

Not religious but I would support it.

[DaveSZ]

39. Great idea

Jesus doesn't belong to the corporate fascists.

MLK and Gandhi were both highly religious men, and were truly great men.

[vetwife]

44. I have gone to that Bush thing and they treat leftys like we are

Some sort of Demons that have to be exorcised. They are the ones who are screaming about us all being morally inept. I tell you..The Native americans with their Great Sprit...the Muslims have been totally disenfranchised, yes the atheists want peace as well, and ths was in no way meant to start a war on DU. this was an idea after getting sick of all the hypocritical R-wingers. Don't you think the buddists and Hindus, and Judaesm, and all of those folks feel left out. I tell you something else.....The South needs to know that not all voters are for Bush. the media need to know that not all faiths are for Bush. The Pope himself said that if Bush went into Iraq he went in without God.
I think one of the first thing one should pray for is separation of church and state. Something else that has been dumped on us by the religious right ! The senate and Congress open with prayers from different faiths. Not only did they hijack my country..they hijacked my Faith..I find that offensive. There is a difference in Religion and Faith. We can show tolerance for other people's faith .......And yes I do believe what Ghandi, MLK and Jesus protrayed !
If these nuts thought God was listening (for those who believe in God) to prayers from someone other than those nuts on the right, they might back off !

[DaveSZ]

45. Well said Vet Wife!

I think the non-religious folks feel persecuted by the RW Fundamentalists, so they lash out.

[gauguin57]

46. I don't go to church ...

... but I do believe in God. Very strongly. I do pray for John Kerry ... I pray all the time that he wins the White House, since I'm afraid for my country and this world if you-know-who gets four more years.

Many of my closest friends are atheists and agnostics (and all are Kerry supporters); they're free to believe my prayers are going into the void, or are made in vain, or whatever.

Ain't that great? This is America!

What I won't do is say I'm praying for Kerry just to show the right that I'm liberal and I pray, too. They wouldn't believe me anyway ... most fundies think that liberal=heathen. And I don't give a flip. They can make their public prayers for Georgie ... I'll pray for Kerry (and our soldiers, and the world!) in the privacy of my room.

[morcatknits]

50. A Prayer Blog Sounds Good To Me

I'm a person of faith, but certainly no extremist. Daily prayer for Kerry is part of my spiritual routine, and I'd be happy to practice it with others, even virtually. One of the worst things about the neocons is that they have given this country the impression that they have "stolen Jesus," as one author wrote. Jesus is clear in the sermon on the mount, that everyone who runs around calling "Lord, Lord," doesn't necessarily represent him.

I consult science to answer my scientific questions, but I consult religion to answer my religious questions.

Good knitting,
Morcat

[KittyWampus]

51. Yes, They Do Seem To Have Stolen Or Hijacked Jesus

and twisted the meaning of his ministry to the point it's essentially reversed.

[leesa]

47. I don't pray for anyone. How about he just plays a decent person for four

years. Please leave religion out of politics.

[Eric J in MN]

48. vetwife - if you want to do a blog on this subject, then

vetwife - if you want to do a blog on this subject, then you can click below:

http://www.blogger.com/start

[datasuspect]

52. well, it's like the old saying . . .

pray/wish in the one hand and shit in the other.

see which hand fills up first.

[progressivebydesign]

53. Funny you should suggest that...

I have been seeing these insipid "GOD BLESS GEORGE BUSH" signs and stickers lately.. and I thought, why not God Bless Senator John Kerry? There's nothing wrong with that, if that's what you believe? I think the Democratic Party would have been well served to print up United We Stand bumper stickers with the Dem logo on it.. hell, the right-wing radio stations do that. Why are people allowing the GOP to covet God and patriotism.

[BabsSong]

54. Well, let's get practical for a change.............

..if we run around yapping like some of the verbage above and shitting all over religion, I'll will 10000000000000000% guarantee you that we will LOSE big, big, big time. The American people like their "god" and like their "war" and think both are the same. Tell them they are assholes and watch the assholes vote for Jesus Bush, the second son of God. And watch YOU getting nailed and bleeding for four more years until the third son of god takes the Oval Office---Jeb. I sometimes think Dems are too stupid to run a successful election campaign because they all want to grab the mike and "make a point" rather than know when to yell and when to shut the hell up until the election is in their back pocket!!!!!

[vetwife]

57. Well for all who is interested..here it is ....check below

http://groups.msn.com/PrayforKerry/

I started it and I want the Right winged to know they can't win this election claiming to be the only ones (For believers of all faith or even non believers)who have values. Its rather new and raw but its there !

[rucky]

58. GREAT WORK!

I especially like this message:

We pray for wisdom from our leaders. We pray for truth and equality. We pray for a stronger and more hopeful America that is not fueled politically by fear. Fear is not of God and we pray that we may be more hopeful as we pray for new leadership to guide us as we pray for those those who have chosen to lead and to use Faith in their own life to guide them and not dominate people nor have intolerance of those who are not of the same faith.



I hope some folks on this thread apologize after reading your message, but don't hold your breath.

[vetwife]

59. Thanks Rucky...It is about fighting the right wing Period !

It is also about giving ALL FAITHS and people without faith a voice
...It is of all Faiths.....It is for non believers and believers alike. That was my point..Not to cram religion down one's throat !
Join...its Free ! It is about Hope ....for a better tomorrow. To pray to one's God of Choice. to unbelievers it is about claiming morality or values and stepping away from the religious right. That is what its about !

[FizzFuzz]

62. I is interested! Thanks

Sorry, I get a kick out of typos, and that was a funny one, so I'm just teasing a bit.

Anyhow, good going!!

[vetwife]

60. The Pray for Bush junk is popping up on every other block

here in the South..or at least my neck of the woods.

[FizzFuzz]

61. I like the idea! Law of the Universe for Kerry!

Good Vibes of all flavors can be used by everybody!

That would take the wind out of the RW rhetoric of "Prayer is moral, therefore we're the only moral ones around here" line.

The website would need to feature plenty of diversity affirmations too and historical reinforcement of the American way of pluralism, to point out the fallacy of RW needs for conformity. In my little old opinion..

[vetwife]

63. LOL Thanks..Join ..its free and should upset the r-wingers

[rasputin1952]

64. One of the things religions teach people, is tolerance...

much to the chagrin of the world, it is a lesson rarely learned.

I think that if people want to pray for Kerry, that is fine. I think if people want to give money to Kerry, that is fine. The good thing about Democrats, is that we won't worship Kerry...Like neo-cons worship bush.

O8)

[vetwife]

65. Absolutely..It sickens me to see the neocons fall at his feet !

It is absolutely ridiculous !

[vetwife]

66. I sure have done a lot of work on that site now !

check it out folks..its definately anti right wing ! HA ha !

http://groups.msn.com/PrayforKerry/

[Djinn]

67. What for?

without buying into the atheist/beleiver argument - I don't see the point.

If there is a God who listens to and acts on human's prayer, shouldn't he have better things to do than interfering in an election? wars, famine, poverty etc? Also if all the freeps are praying for Bush how exactly does God pick which candidate to "bless"

No-one can tell you not to set up a website I just fail to see God taking sides in a US election when he didn't intervene in the bloodiest human battles?

[vetwife]

70. I feel my faith has been hijacked and not all the people of faith

are praying for Bush..The point exactly....Believers, non believers, but peaceful people have always wanted peace and this site is not a My God is bigger than your God..This site is an example of how Kerry has been dissed by the right wing and no God is neither Republican or Democrat, or Green and that again is the point. They missed it. Those in charge now. They think theyown God..Well they don't. they don't the Flag and they don't own the country. My first prayer would be to separate church and state again ! Is it satire ..NO !
Is it a way some of we who have faith feel we can not feel left out of praying or not praying and feel the freedom to say that on a board. You bet !

[Djinn]

71. I agree

On the hijacked notion but if:

"My first prayer would be to separate church and state again"

how does God seperate that prayer from all those praying for a bigger/stronger connection between church and state?

[vetwife]

72. Good point...and I read

somewhere that anything a person any person does not believe in personally considers everything else a cult. That is true. See. the way I see it, it is a slap in the face to the wingers. No faith of any sort. Whether people pray to Buddah, or their own meditiation or Muslim, or justlive in hope, whatever. I personally am a christian, but not like what the r-wing is doing. People have to make up their own minds about faith or non faith and what ircks me is 3 more federal agencies including the VA has been set up with Faith Based initiaves ! My question..Who's Faith does it serve? We can wish this Reglion thing would go away and I wish the Religion thing would go away...THE RELIGION THING ! That is why I posted quotes from Grant about leaving the family alter to the churches and private schools and funded by contribution and not federally funded. I think
morality cannot be legislated nor faith should be funded..and that is my quote. In a survey over 70 percent of Americans have Religious idealog of some sort or another. Saw that on PBS. Well.....I just gave people of non faith and faith a place to go whether you call it prayer or hope and a zinger against the Right winged. Thats all. I can't say that it is a parody but I can say its an alternative and a comeback to all of those zealots !