That Nazi Moment

[Luminous Animal]

History shows that thousands of people, particularly German Jews, foresaw parts or all of this fate in advance. But millions of Germans, and millions of people the world over, did not believe that Hitler would really be as bad as all that. In hindsight, it is easy for us to say that everybody should have realized that the man was a psychopathic lunatic. But for those that figured it out ahead of time, they must have had a Nazi Moment -- the last straw that confirmed that Hitler really meant to bring death and destruction to the entire world.

I have often wondered about That Nazi Moment -- what it would be like to be a student in Munich or Dresden or Berlin in 1933 or 34 or 36 or 38? You could choose to believe that the authoritarian measures of the Reich were unfortunate but beyond your control. You could regard the harassment of Jews to be unfortunate but beyond your control. You could regard the bizarre symbolism and mass hysteria of the Nazi movement as unfortunate but beyond your control. You have your own life to lead in any event. By seeing the future accurately, as some did, you pretty much condemned yourself to death or exile.

In 2004, you really can't know for sure what the Bush Administration is capable of doing. But here are the pieces of a puzzle that could match anything that Hitler did:

More here...

UpsizeThis.org

[cestmoi]

1. "Today's Fascist America" Web-site worth eyeballing

http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/policestate/FascistAmericaBblg.html

[kaitykaity]

2. Welcome to DU!!

Hi, Luminous Animal. Happy posting. :toast:

[slaveplanet]

3. probably at lot like this

as well....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=22713

[sui generis]

4. yes, but if you really want to piss off a bushie

you do have to be careful to separate what is a valid historical comparison of political methods to bringing this up in debate with a whacko -- the prey is usually subintelligent or underinformed or educationally challenged. Sometimes the administration supporters are people who identify themselves as Jewish, which ends up quickly getting into irrational territory, but if the foo shits . . . .

Actually it's a scholastic point well made but there are probably more effective tools for pointing out the deficiencies of the bush administration. Remember that people don't really care about methods so much as outcomes, and that is where the argument falls apart. We are not moving towards rounding up Jews (or Gays, or Mexicans, or Liberals). Now, a valid comparison to some of the post-Republic Roman emperors might be better -- they overextended their countries on military, kept their economies chained to the plutocracy and the fortunes of war, and seized "dictatorial" powers at every opportunity. They wiped out their fellow countrymen, wanted to deny citizen's rights to three quarters of the population, and created and enforced a class system that effectively created an unimaginable gulf between the haves and the have-nots.

[Luminous Animal]

6. RE: "yes, but if you really want to piss off a bushie"

I think the message of That Nazi Moment is better targeted at liberals and independents than the Bush supporters. While Bush supporters, at most 25% of the electorite, may be vocally and actively championing this administrations policies, the rest of the population is sleeping. The writer's argument is not that the Bush administration are analogous to Nazi's but that our country, overall, is passive in the face of its atrocities.

[ArkDem]

7. What is an electorite?

[Nlighten1]

19. It is what you get when...

an electorate meets an electrolyte.

:)

[ArkDem]

58. I hope I never live to see THAT!

[seemslikeadream]

5. WAKE UP AMERICA AND SMELL THE FLESH

smell the palpable, ghastly odor of burning human flesh


WOULD YOU HAVE HELPED?

Any of us who've read about that horrific era are terrified by the thought of it, the photographs, even by meeting people who lived through it. Our hearts break. We cannot possibly comprehend. How can we say, "We're sorry"? It is not enough.

But of what are we most afraid? I personally think what torments us most about that piece of charred history is our not really knowing how we'd have reacted had we been non-Jewish Germans living in Deutschland at that time. Oh, many of us loudly insist we'd have taken a stand, protested, put a stop to the slaughter of millions. In fact many did try, some were successful, but many ended paying the ultimate price for their heroism.

We are left wondering if we really would have had the courage to stand up to the black, brutal violence of Nazism, if we would have had the bravery to save even one life; Jewish, Gypsy, homosexual, mentally or physically handicapped, or any marked for extermination in order that the so-called Aryan race be kept pure. Would we? Would you? Would I?

I've pondered on this problem a great deal over the years. I was alive, happy and thriving back in the 1930s and 40s while millions were dying in ways so horrible most of us cannot touch our minds to the thought of it for fear it will burn into the very core of our psyches. Children like me were being ripped to pieces. Who knew? Did you? Did we? Did I?

I wonder if I'd been a parent in Germany with a family I loved and knew what was happening, and yet because a horrible war was exploding all around me, would I have had the courage to scream "Stop!!"? Would I have taken the terrible chance that my family would be piled amongst the slaughtered because of my heroics? If I lived near a crematorium and could smell the palpable, ghastly odor of burning human flesh, would I have called a meeting of my neighbors, demanding to know what that was? Would I, like so many did, have spent my life protesting, "But we just didn't know!" Would I have put my beloved family at risk to save complete strangers?

more
http://www.vansavage.com/columns/holocaust.shtml

[Luminous Animal]

8. RE: "WAKE UP AMERICA AND SMELL THE FLESH"

That's good, seemslikeadream. Thanks for posting it.

An important question is, who has the courage to scream "Stop!!" now? For most of us who posts on these boards, it seems like there is a lot of people screaming "Stop!!" But venture out beyond your like-minded community, you will find that most people do not know what the hell is going on.

[never cry wolf]

32. Wake up and smell the fascism

Nice post, LA, and welcome to DU! :hi:

Here's and interesting comparison on the same subject:

In "Fascism Anyone?," Dr. Lawrence Britt, a political scientist, identifies 14 characteristics common to fascist regimes. His comparisons of Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Suharto, and Pinochet yielded this list of 14 "identifying characteristics of fascism."

1.) Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
and let's not forget the failed "Bring 'em on!

more----> http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

[seemslikeadream]

45. IT CAN HAPPEN HERE! Bureau of Indian Affairs

Bureau of Indian Affairs' director reassigned after deaths in custody

WASHINGTON — The federal government's top law enforcement official responsible for Native American lands has been reassigned in the midst of a wide-ranging investigation into deaths and inhumane conditions in tribal detention centers scattered across the USA, the Interior Department said Tuesday

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-06-01-official-reassigned_x.h...

Thanks to you
Luminous Animal

[seemslikeadream]

46. Bureau of Indian Affairs is that under the Department of the Interior?

Now Hiring: Park rangers, interrogators
Commentary: The wacky world of government contracts

By Michael Collins, CBS.MarketWatch.com
Last Update: 1:07 PM ET May 28, 2004

ARLINGTON, VA (CBS.MW) -- We learned this week that civilian interrogators used by the Army at the Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad were hired under a Department of the Interior contract for information technology.

Yes, the Interior Department, best known for running the national parks, apparently has a side business administering contracts for other government agencies. And under what is known as a "blanket purchase agreement" for the government to buy technology services from CACI International of Arlington (CAI: news, chart, profile), the Army was able to order up prison interrogators.

Welcome to the wild, wacky world of government contracting.

It's strange enough that Iraq intelligence gathering is contracted out to the private sector, and even stranger that Baghdad prison interrogators are working under an Interior Department technology contract. But what really bothers me is this type of thing is not that uncommon, and it's seen as "efficiency" in the federal government.

It's hard for an outsider to see what's efficient about the complex web of government contracting. I'm sure it made sense, to someone, for the Army to ask a technology company to hire interrogators -- but to me it seems like going to a lumber yard to buy a computer.

Now that the deal is public, the government has ordered investigations.

Interior Department spokesman Frank Quimby said Tuesday the department's inspector general wants to find out if it was proper to hire interrogators under an information technology contract. He was speaking on a conference call, so we don't know if he was able to keep a straight face.

http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7BF8607265-F5F6-4E14-B ...

[sui generis]

9. this is not the holocaust

My grandfather and 14 year old uncle were both sent to Dachau. My grandfather survived but my uncle did not. My grandmother was not Jewish, and ran a safehouse right under the eyes of the gestapo with her husband incarcerated. Many many people were heroic and their stories are not known, and not told.

Some humans are ugly to the bone, as Abu Graib proved, and the thin veneer of humanity will dissolve at the slightest provocation, but fortunately, they are relatively few.

The Bush administration is categorically not going to start rounding people up and killing and burning them . . . at least not in this country. They are evil no doubt, but you can bet that the holocaust will not ever happen in America. Now, as to the evil empire screwing up our economony for decades to come, fucking up the environment beyond all hope of repair, and making America over into a third world country hated by the rest of the world -- we are well on our way.

[Luminous Animal]

10. "this is not the holocaust"

The writer of the above article was careful to make that point when he said this:

"Well.

At least they're not Hitler. At least they're not gassing Jews. At least they're not killing their political opponents."

The point is not that Bush et al, are nazis. The point is when do we scream "Stop!!"? When will we have That Bush Moment?

[slaveplanet]

11. some good reading suggestions-

rex 84, operation garden plot , operation cable splicer

[diamond14]

12. bush* has already started and people are refusing to see it...

the exact same thing happened in Germany....hitler did not start out rounding up Jews and burning them....he started out by stealing control of the government....then, he made a LOT of laws that gave him ultimate power and operated a government of secrecy...bush* has done the same thing, exactly, U.S.A.P.A.T.R.I.O.T Act, secret energy meetings, running OUR government through pResidental directives , rather than by LAW, demolished all international treaties of which, the most recently exposed WH memos to declare that the Geneva Convention does NOT apply to Iraqis, or to Afganistanis, or to anyone picked up under bush* U.S.A.P.A.T.R.I.O.T Act (the memo stated that bush can avoid prison for war crimes by removing Geneva Convention protections)....

both bush* and hitler seized almost total government control after major national events...for bush* it was 9/11 and for hitler it was the 'burning of the Reichstag'...in both cases, there are unanswered questions about their complicity....


more than 3000 people have already been picked up IN AMERICA and are being held without charges, in unknown locations, without access to a lawyer, and without telling their families anything, and they are NOT allowed to even make a phone call...we have no idea what has happened to these people....

in Iraq...bush* maintains a whole prison system, which Al Gore called "bush's gulag", that includes refusal to abide by Geneva Conventions AND American Law...people there are being tortured and KILLED by American Soldiers under commands from rumsfeld and bush*

bush* is KILLING people with disabilities first, by denying them medicine and healthcare...AND thousands have already died....hitler did the same....eliminated people with disabilites first, stating that they are too much of a burden (which bush does by actions, eliminated all programs for their survival, eliminating goals for all Federal hiring people with disabilities by pResidential direct, cutting medical care and medicines)...

bush* is censoring and controlling the news media in a madness that would make goebbles proud......which is exactly why nobody is noticing outside of the internet...anyone who doen't cooperate has their career ruined and is labeled a 'terrorist'....

bush* attacked TWO sovereign nations that were NO threat to us, just like hitler attacked Poland, both were stealing other nation's natural resources, for hitler, it was coal and steel, for bush*, it is oil and gas and the chemical plants associated with oil...

bush* openly encourages and calls for ASSASSINATION of foreign leaders, their children, and anyone he thinks are 'terrorists', even puts bounties on their heads...which was BANNED before bush* stole power...bush* orders the KILLING of Iraqis from missiles without any trials or chance to prove their innocence, that is MURDER...

bush* has expelled thousands of immigrants from America....hitler expelled Jews...in both...nobody complained very much....


this is all very much following hitler's mein kampf...exactly....if you want to read more about the holocaust...here's very good collect of documents and pictures....
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/holo.html

-----------------------------------------
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/hitler_propaganda.html

hitler on propaganda:

It is a mistake to make propaganda many-sided, like scientific instruction, for instance.

The receptivity of the great masses is very limited, their intelligence is small, but their power of forgetting is enormous. In consequence of these facts, all effective propaganda must be limited to a very few points and must harp on these in slogans until the last member of the public understands what you want him to understand by your slogan. As soon as you sacrifice this slogan and try to be many-sided, the effect will piddle away, for the crowd can neither digest nor retain the material offered. In this way the result is weakened and in the end entirely cancelled out.

Thus we see that propaganda must follow a simple line and correspondingly the basic tactics must be psychologically sound.

------------------------------------------------

Hitler Sees No Reason To Complain About Expulsion of Jews
(April 8, 1933)

“As to the Jews, why should there be such a fuss when they are thrown out of places, when hundreds of thousands of Aryan Germans are out on the streets. No, the world has no ground for complaint. Germany is not fighting merely the battle of Germany. It is fighting the battle of the world.”

--------------------------------------------------

Hitler on the Tasks of the Four-year Plan
(1936)
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Hitler4.html

The Political Situation

Politics is the conduct and process of the historical struggle for the life of nations. The aim of these struggles is survival. Idealistic struggles over world views ( Weltanschauung ) also have their ultimate causes, and draw their deepest motivating power from purposes and aims in life that derive from national (voelklich ) sources. But religions and world views can give such struggles an especial sharpness and by this means endow them with a great historic effectiveness. They can put their mark on the character of centuries. It is then not possible for nations and states which exist within the sphere of influence of such conflicts of philosophical or religious nature to stand apart or exclude themselves from these events....

------------------------------------------

Hitler Bans Public Reference
to the “Final Solution”
(July 11, 1943)
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/hitban.html

Circular No. 33/43 g.

Re: Treatment of the Jewish Question

On instructions from the Fuhrer I make known the following:

Where the Jewish Question is brought up in public, there may be no discussion of a future overall solution (Gesamtlosung).

It may, however, be mentioned that the Jews are taken in groups for appropriate labor purposes.

Signed M. Bormann


Adolf Hitler, seated center right, celebrates with members of his cabinet on January 30, 1933, the day he was appointed Prime Minister of Germany.

[ArkDem]

13. Wouldn't gulag be a mixed metaphor?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

39. Much like most of your responses

:eyes:

[ArkDem]

59. No mixed metaphors here. What are you talking about?

mixed metaphor
n.
A succession of incongruous metaphors, as in The negotiator played his cards to the hilt.

[smirkymonkey]

28. I agree with you

Four more years of BushCo and there is no limit to the evil that will be perpetrated upon the world.

It's almost too frightening to contemplate.

[natrat]

50. especially given the

right conditions. Hitler had a nasty depression to soften up the people.

[taquinas101]

14. What's your view on Ordinary Germans during the Holocaust?

While it is easy to look back in hindsight after the holocaust and say that the U.S. will never start rounding folks up based on race. Okay, there is the Japanese internment where the U.S. rounded up Japanese Americans and incarcerated them, but did not intern German Americans or Italian Americans.

What is your view of the role of ordinary Germans in the holocaust? Do you agree with the thesis of "Hitler's Willing Executioners" that ordinary Germans were aware of, and complicit with, the atrocities? If so, does that make Germans as a whole were "humans are ugly to the bone."

What makes you so sure that "he Bush administration is categorically not going to start rounding people up and killing and burning them . . . at least not in this country." Is it the inherent moral superiority of ordinary Americans, as opposed to ordinary Germans?

It concerns me when people appear so sure that the U.S. would never engage in the types of atrocities committed by the Nazis.

[sui generis]

16. Well it's a complicated question

"ordinary" Germans were starving, according to my Oma. If you had children you could not feed them without food stamps and rations for butter and flour and sugar and milk. Then the great liberators came from America, many with great stupidity and hatred for "all Germans" and they acted on those beliefs. My grandfather, who survived Dachau twice was beaten up by a soldier who thought he was an "ordinary German" and took his camera and some extremely rare fresh fruit away from him. In the camera was film of my mother's youngest brother who had died of starvation following the bombing of Ansbach, and also film of his nephew, the 14 year old who died in a medical experiment in Dachau.

It concerns me when ignorant Americans make assumptions about crap they don't know a damn thing about. If someone wants to believe that all Germans were somehow at fault for the holocaust either directly or by inaction then that's your odd belief system. The fact is that an entire mostly agrarian country was held hostage by a bunch of psychopaths with guns, and the ones who did know lived in utter fear that it could happen to them too. Remember that many Germans had Jewish relatives or were mixed families, and certainly had lived with Jewish neighbors for years. Not a single Rambo or Vin Diesel film had been produced, and the remaining women and old men who weren't in the army fighting on the front weren't terribly likely to pick up arms and go liberate a goddamned concentration camp.

Everyone makes choices, but we make those choices with knowledge of outcomes. Ordinary Germans didn't have knowledge of that "outcome", as we do today. Do you really think that someone can jump an airplane crew using a box cutter EVER AGAIN? It will never happen again, because people know what happens if you cave in. But WHILE IT WAS HAPPENING THE FIRST TIME, I don't think a lot of people had any idea what to do or how to react or what was at stake, and they probably would not care to be maligned as being responsible for the fall of the WTC because they failed to take action.

[Eloriel]

15. No, it's not the holocaust1

And I don't know anyone who compares the many, many similarities between Bush and Hitler who try to make that point. So why are you jumping there? I understand your ancestral background on the issue, and empathize, but Hitler did many things OTHER than the Holocaust -- things which led UP TO the Holocaust. Things which were quite horrific on their own WITHOUT the Holocaust (like invading sovereign nations).

In no way do I wish to minimize the Holocaust, but to conflate Hitler and the Nazis AS the Holocaust is historically weak, IMO. The Holocaust was no doubt his worst crime, it was by no means his only crme, NOR was it necessarily inherent in each and every of the steps that led up to it over the years he was ascending in power, consolidating power, weilding untrammeled power.

Don't take this personally, because it's not intended at you, but I get very weary of people insisting that "Bush is no Hitler," just because we don't see any Jews being rounded up, nor know of any concentration camps and that we shouldn't, therefore, compare Bush to Hitler.

THE COMPARISONS WITH HITLER ARE UNDENIABLE, and to refuse to see them, just because we get fixated on Hitler's most horrific crimes, is absolute folly!

The Bush administration is categorically not going to start rounding people up and killing and burning them...

Well, not BEFORE the elections, for sure. And maybe not ever, but who knows? Bush has no problem killing people or animals. He's a psychopath, pure and simple. The people he's got surrounding him (the neocons) are full-blooded fascists. (Read up on the Straussians, esp. workd by or articles about the work of Shadia Drury.) They believe it is their DUTY to lie to the populace and keep them in the dark and pacified (esp. via religion); they believe that it is their DUTY to govern and dominate. THEY'RE FASCISTS, and one of them -- Michael Ledeen -- even calls himself a "universal fascist," which in Leo Strauss's terminology is fascism that leaves a place for Jews.

Your remark (quoted above) exemplifies exactly what I'm talking about: does there really have to BE a Holocaust for it to be full-fledged fascism? Or even full-fledged totalitiarianism? Hardly. To say Bush is not like Hitler UNTIL he does or threatens that is, again, sheer folly -- the kind of folly that can help us (and him) get to exactly where we don't want to go.

They have all the tools they need already in place to emulate the worst of what Hitler did, without much recourse of the people or even legal repurcussion. Further, they've pretty much followed Hitler's game plan.

Stay tuned.

==========

Here's a link re Strauss and the neocons:

One more time: LEO STRAUSS AND THE NEO-CONS
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=7200&forum=DCForumID70&archive=yes


This one is must reading: "But Then It Was Too Late," an excerpt from a book They Thought They Were Free by Milton Meyer, about how the German people were inexorably led into the full horrof of the Third Reich:
http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Were_Free_nn4.html


This one is worth reading, tho it's not precisely in line with this dicussion:
Paranoid Shift
http://www.onlinejournal.com/Commentary/011004Hasty/011004hasty.html

[Jose Diablo]

33. I don't think its will be like the holocaust

because we have newer technology.

Why use ovens to dispose of the bodies when thermal depolymerization plants can turn them into oil and profit?

Can't happen here? I think it can and will if Bush* is not stopped.

[seemslikeadream]

17. george bush does not have to round up people in this country

to create or allow the holocaust to continue.

3.5 million souls have been lost in Congo since 1998.

Do you know who is fueling that "civil" war!

1 million Rwandians died in 1994.

Do you know who was supplying the arms for that!

bush is responsible for all the deaths in Iraq since the invasion.

bush is responsible for all the deaths in Haiti since the coup.

Right here in this country before Hitler started his little project was the hate needed to commit genocide. They even made postcards to advertise it!

WITHOUT SANCTUARY


Lynchers often paraded their victim down the main street, through black neighborhoods, and in front of "colored schools" that were in session.

Jesse Washington, seventeen years old, was the chief suspect in the May 8, 1916, murder of Lucy Fryer of Robinson, Texas, on whose farm he worked as a laborer. After the lynching, Washington's corpse was placed in a burlap bag and dragged around City Hall Plaza, through the main streets of Waco, and seven miles to Robinson, where a large black population resided.

His charred corpse was hung for public display in front of a blacksmith shop. The sender of this card, Joe Meyers, an oiler at the Bellmead car department and a Waco resident, marked his photo with a cross (now an ink smudge to left of victim).


This card bears the advertising stamp, "katy electric studio temple texas. h. lippe prop." inscribed in brown ink: "This is the Barbecue we had last night my picture is to the left with a cross over it your son Joe."

Repeated references to eating are found in lynching-related correspondence, such as "coon cooking," "barbecue," and "main fare."
http://www.musarium.com/withoutsanctuary/main.html

Portrait of Will James. Circa 1907, Cairo, illinois. Gelatin silver print. Real photo postcard. 3 1/2 x 5 1/2" ink inscription under oval portrait, "Will James (alias) Froggie."

Half- Burned Head of James on Pole" in Candee Park. November 11, 1909, Cairo, Illinois. Gelatin silver print. Real photo postcard. 3 1/2 x 5 1/2" ink inscription on reverse: "This Pole is in Candee Park. Enter section of Washington avenue and Elm st which have Will James (alia) Froggie half Burnt Head." Etched into negative, "Half Burned Head of James" and photographers name, "leBlock."


Will James likely sat for this portrait at a local postcard photographer's studio, a popular and inexpensive fashion of the time. This is the first image of the James lynching in a series of fifteen real photo postcards. Other images not reproduced here include the home of his alleged victim, Miss Anne Pelley; the home of the seven-year-old daughter of Mr. Boren, who found the murdered Miss Pelley in an alley she was crossing on the way to her grandmother's house; the "course the hounds took"; the trains the mob took over to reach Belknap, illinois, where James was apprehended, and to return him to Cairo for a public execution.

The rope from which James was hung broke before he died. His body was then "riddled with bullets," dragged by rope for a mile to the alleged scene of the crime, and burned in the presence of ten thousand spectators. According to the New York Times, five hundred "women were in the crowd and some helped to hang the negro and to drag the body."
more
http://www.musarium.com/withoutsanctuary/main.html

This is a token of a great day we had in Dallas

Silhouetted corpse of African American Allen Brooks hanging from Elk's Arch, surrounded by spectators. March 3, 1910. Dallas, Texas.

Tinted lithographed postcard. 3 1/2 x 5 1/2 in.

Printed inscription on border, "LYNCHING SCENE, DALLAS, MARCH 3, 1910". Penciled inscription on border, "All OK and would like to get a post from you. Bill, This was some Raw Bunch."



This postcard, addressed to Dr. J.W.F. Williams, LaFayette, Christian County, Kentucky documents the sentiments of one lunchtime spectator.

"Well John - This is a token of a great day we had in Dallas, March 3, a negro was hung for an assault on a three year old girl. I saw this on my noon hour. I was very much in the bunch. You can see the negro hanging on a telephone pole. "
http://www.musarium.com/withoutsanctuary/main.html

Racism is alive and well. It never went away. It only went underground.



How American corporate philanthropies launched a national campaign of ethnic cleansing in the United States, helped found and fund the Nazi eugenics of Hitler and Mengele — and then created the modern movement of "human genetics."

In the first three decades of the 20th Century, American corporate philanthropy combined with prestigious academic fraud to create the pseudoscience eugenics that institutionalized race politics as national policy. The goal: create a superior, white, Nordic race and obliterate the viability of everyone else.
How? By identifying so-called "defective" family trees and subjecting them to legislated segregation and sterilization programs. The victims: poor people, brown-haired white people, African Americans, immigrants, Indians, Eastern European Jews, the infirm and really anyone classified outside the superior genetic lines drawn up by American raceologists. The main culprits were the Carnegie Institution, the Rockefeller Foundation and the Harriman railroad fortune, in league with America's most respected scientists hailing from such prestigious universities as Harvard, Yale and Princeton, operating out of a complex at Cold Spring Harbor on Long Island. The eugenic network worked in tandem with the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the State Department and numerous state governmental bodies and legislatures throughout the country, and even the U.S. Supreme Court. They were all bent on breeding a eugenically superior race, just as agronomists would breed better strains of corn. The plan was to wipe away the reproductive capability of the weak and inferior.

Ultimately, 60,000 Americans were coercively sterilized — legally and extra-legally. Many never discovered the truth until decades later. Those who actively supported eugenics include America's most progressive figures: Woodrow Wilson, Margaret Sanger and Oliver Wendell Holmes.

American eugenic crusades proliferated into a worldwide campaign, and in the 1920s came to the attention of Adolf Hitler. Under the Nazis, American eugenic principles were applied without restraint, careening out of control into the Reich's infamous genocide. During the pre-War years, American eugenicists openly supported Germany's program. The Rockefeller Foundation financed the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute and the work of its central racial scientists. Once WWII began, Nazi eugenics turned from mass sterilization and euthanasia to genocidal murder. One of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute doctors in the program financed by the Rockefeller Foundation was Josef Mengele who continued his research in Auschwitz, making daily eugenic reports on twins. After the world recoiled from Nazi atrocities, the American eugenics movement — its institutions and leading scientists — renamed and regrouped under the banner of an enlightened science called human genetics.
http://www.waragainsttheweak.com/




The Passing of a Great Race by American eugenicist Madison Grant


Against the mongrelization of the submerged tenth, the eugenicists posed the purity of the Nordic races. Peoples of the north, they held, had forged their superiority over generations through the struggle to survive in severe environments. The weaker members had long been eliminated by natural selection.


This was set out in texts like The Passing of a Great Race by American eugenicist Madison Grant, which Hitler read while imprisoned in the mid '20s for inciting mob violence.


(The German translation was published by Hitler's co-conspirator Julius Lehman; Hitler even wrote Grant a fan letter declaring the book his "Bible.")

http://www.popmatters.com/books/reviews/w/war-against-the-weak.shtml

[Nlighten1]

20. How can you be so certain?

I'm sure the Jews in Germany thought the same thing.

[stickdog]

41. Bush's campaign slogan: "Vote For Me: I'm Not Hitler!"

[struggle4progress]

51. Regard everything they've done so far as a trial balloon:

the arrest and detention of Padilla, for example, with the claim that no trial is necessary.

I wouldn't assume that all will be rosy if they get another term, with another spectacular terrorist attack. The right-wingers like Coulter are propagandists for violence, and they may eventually have an effect.

[yardwork]

22. Geez, I wish you'd warn us before posting these things....

we're on your side, remember?

[seemslikeadream]

23. WHILE I SIT HERE TRYING TO MOVE YOU ANYWAY I CAN

WHILE I SIT HERE TRYING TO THINK OF THINGS TO SAY



SOMEONE LIES BLEEDING IN A FIELD SOMEWHERE



SO IT WOULD SEEM WE'VE STILL GOT A LONG LONG WAY TO GO



I'VE SEEN ALL I WANNA SEE TODAY



WHILE I SIT HERE TRYING TO MOVE YOU ANYWAY I CAN



SOMEONE'S SON LIES DEAD IN A GUTTER SOMEWHERE



AND IT WOULD SEEM THAT WE'VE GOT A LONG LONG WAY TO GO



BUT I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE



SWITCH IT OFF IT WILL GO AWAY



TURN IT OFF IF YOU WANT TO



SWITCH IT OFF OR LOOK AWAY



WHILE I SIT AND WE TALK AND TALK AND WE TALK SOME MORE



SOMEONE'S LOVED ONE'S HEART STOPS BEATING IN A STREET SOMEWHERE



SO IT WOULD SEEM WE'VE STILL GOT A LONG LONG WAY TO GO, I KNOW



I'VE HEARD ALL I WANNA HEAR TODAY



TURN IT OFF IF YOU WANT TO (TURN IT OFF IF YOU WANT TO)



SWITCH IT OFF IT WILL GO AWAY (SWITCH IT OFF IT WILL GO AWAY)



TURN IT OFF IF YOU WANT TO (TURN IT OFF IF YOU WANT TO)



SWITCH IT OFF OR LOOK AWAY (SWITCH IT OFF OR LOOK AWAY)



SWITCH IT OFF



SWITCH IT OFF



SWITCH IT OFF



SWITCH IT OFF



SWITCH IT OFF



TURN IT OFF



thanks phil collins for the words
my heart to the people of Haiti

[seemslikeadream]

24. From those who live like leeches on the people's lives,

EVERY DEATH CREATES NEW ENEMIES
MORE TERRORISTS
MORE DANGER
MORE DEATH
AND REMEMBER...
HE IS JUST GETTING STARTED...
BUSH'S PLAN FOR PEACE
IS THE PEACE OF THE COMMON GRAVE


http://www.bushflash.com/pax.html


Let America be America again.
Let it be the dream it used to be.
Let it be the pioneer on the plain
Seeking a home where he himself is free.

(America never was America to me.)

Let America be the dream the dreamers dreamed--
Let it be that great strong land of love
Where never kings connive nor tyrants scheme
That any man be crushed by one above.

(It never was America to me.)

O, let my land be a land where Liberty
Is crowned with no false patriotic wreath,
But opportunity is real, and life is free,
Equality is in the air we breathe.

(There's never been equality for me,
Nor freedom in this "homeland of the free.")

Say, who are you that mumbles in the dark?
And who are you that draws your veil across the stars?

I am the poor white, fooled and pushed apart,
I am the Negro bearing slavery's scars.
I am the red man driven from the land,
I am the immigrant clutching the hope I seek--
And finding only the same old stupid plan
Of dog eat dog, of mighty crush the weak.

I am the young man, full of strength and hope,
Tangled in that ancient endless chain
Of profit, power, gain, of grab the land!
Of grab the gold! Of grab the ways of satisfying need!
Of work the men! Of take the pay!
Of owning everything for one's own greed!

I am the farmer, bondsman to the soil.
I am the worker sold to the machine.
I am the Negro, servant to you all.
I am the people, humble, hungry, mean--
Hungry yet today despite the dream.
Beaten yet today--O, Pioneers!
I am the man who never got ahead,
The poorest worker bartered through the years.

Yet I'm the one who dreamt our basic dream
In the Old World while still a serf of kings,
Who dreamt a dream so strong, so brave, so true,
That even yet its mighty daring sings
In every brick and stone, in every furrow turned
That's made America the land it has become.
O, I'm the man who sailed those early seas
In search of what I meant to be my home--
For I'm the one who left dark Ireland's shore,
And Poland's plain, and England's grassy lea,
And torn from Black Africa's strand I came
To build a "homeland of the free."

The free?

Who said the free? Not me?
Surely not me? The millions on relief today?
The millions shot down when we strike?
The millions who have nothing for our pay?
For all the dreams we've dreamed
And all the songs we've sung
And all the hopes we've held
And all the flags we've hung,
The millions who have nothing for our pay--
Except the dream that's almost dead today.

O, let America be America again--
The land that never has been yet--
And yet must be--the land where every man is free.
The land that's mine--the poor man's, Indian's, Negro's, ME--
Who made America,
Whose sweat and blood, whose faith and pain,
Whose hand at the foundry, whose plow in the rain,
Must bring back our mighty dream again.

Sure, call me any ugly name you choose--
The steel of freedom does not stain.
From those who live like leeches on the people's lives,
We must take back our land again,
America!

O, yes,
I say it plain,
America never was America to me,
And yet I swear this oath--
America will be!

Out of the rack and ruin of our gangster death,
The rape and rot of graft, and stealth, and lies,
We, the people, must redeem
The land, the mines, the plants, the rivers.
The mountains and the endless plain--
All, all the stretch of these great green states--
And make America again!

Let America be America Again...by Langston Hughes

[sampsonblk]

18. Why aren't Jewish Americans Complaining??

This is what really shocks me and pisses me off.

Having studied the holocaust for many years, I always said if America ever moved in that direction, I would not sit by (as many Germans did) and watchi it. I would complain as loud as possible to anyone who would listen - before it got out of hand.

There are holocaust survivors right here in America, who support Bush and his policies - including the Patriot Act. WTF?????????

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sampsonblk]

27. I hope you are wrong

But that is all I can come up with also...

[Frangible]

21. Most Germans didn't know about the holocaust until after the war

To put things relatively, we could be gassing arabs en masse now... and how would you know? Someone would take pictures of it on their cell phone camera?

Sure, Germans at the time were antisemitic-- but so was the US (look at Henry Ford's writing which was a major inspiration to Hitler).

BTW, in the 30s the NSDAP was quite popular following its successes; it was regarded as "Triumph Des Willens" around the world. Hitler and the NSDAP transformed the battered and poor Germany into a superpower in several years.

The Nazi party had the support of most Germans up until the heavy losses in the war against Russia. And most never even knew about the atrocities.

Bizzare symbolism? I was at Walmart the other day, and saw a tub of "patriotic cookies" for sale. They had red, white, and blue sprinkles. Bizzare symbolism isn't unique to "Zee Germans".

There never was a Nazi moment, except for the jews and minorities they murdered in secret.

There wasn't one then, and there wouldn't be one now.

[sampsonblk]

36. You buy that?

I sure don't. Americans who care about human rights should have known that we were violating the Geneva Convention. The Bush crowd made no secret of it. When they discarded the GC, that should have sounded an alarm for all of us. unfortunately it didn't.

As for Germans, they are (IMO) just as culpable as us. Germans could have and should have known what was being done. This isn't to say that they participated. But they should have known, and they could have acted early on to prevent before the mass extermination started. After a few years, it was too late.

[timtom]

54. I am in total agreement.

At this point, however, I don't think it's so much a matter of "I didn't know..." as it is "What do we do now?"

What DO we do now?

[diamond14]

38. Simon Wiesenthal Center: what did the average German know?

The Simon Wiesenthal Center's
36 Questions About the Holocaust (1-18)
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/36quest1.html


17. What did people in Germany know about the persecution of Jews and other enemies of Nazism?

Answer: Certain initial aspects of Nazi persecution of Jews and other opponents were common knowledge in Germany. Thus, for example, everyone knew about the Boycott of April 1, 1933, the Laws of April, and the Nuremberg Laws, because they were fully publicized. Moreover, offenders were often publicly punished and shamed. The same holds true for subsequent anti-Jewish measures. Kristallnacht (The Night of the Broken Glass - Nov. 1938) was a public pogrom, carried out in full view of the entire population. (Pogrom: From the Russian word for "devastation"; an unprovoked attack or series of attacks upon a Jewish community.) While information on the concentration camps was not publicized, a great deal of information was available to the German public, and the treatment of the inmates was generally known, although exact details were not easily obtained.

As for the implementation of the "Final Solution" and the murder of other undesirable elements, the situation was different. The Nazis attempted to keep the murders a secret and, therefore, took precautionary measures to ensure that they would not be publicized. Their efforts, however, were only partially successful. Thus, for example, public protests by various clergymen led to the halt of their euthanasia program in August of 1941. These protests were obviously the result of the fact that many persons were aware that the Nazis were killing the mentally ill in special institutions.

As far as the Jews were concerned, it was common knowledge in Germany that they had disappeared after having been sent to the East. It was not exactly clear to large segments of the German population what had happened to them. On the other hand, there were thousands upon thousands of Germans who participated in and/or witnessed the implementation of the "Final Solution" either as members of the SS, the Einsatzgruppen, death camp or concentration camp guards, police in occupied Europe, or with the Wehrmacht.



Destruction of Jewish store, Berlin 1938


Burning synagogue in Baden-Baden 1938


Burning synagogue in Frankfurt


The burned-out synagogue of Aachen, Germany,
one of nearly 200 synagogues destroyed during Kristallnacht.



Burning synagogue in Memel on Kristallnacht


As the synagogue in Ober-Ramstadt burns during Kristallnacht (the "Night of Broken Glass"), local firefighters instead save a nearby house. Onlookers are gathered in the foreground of the photograph. Ober-Ramstadt, Germany.


Shattered storefront of a Jewish-owned shop destroyed during Kristallnacht (the "Night of Broken Glass"). Berlin, Germany

[diamond14]

25. USA: Military radiation experiments on American Citizens...

this is a gruesome story of the American Military Complex during the 'cold war' years, when the Military (specifically, the nuclear scientists at the Department of Energy) felt that radiation experiments on unsuspecting humans were JUSTIFIED...Secretary Hazel O'Leary opened these secrets, and for that, she was FIRED....today, bush* has restarted the nuclear bomb complexes and is making more plutonium and setting off nuclear bomb tests underground...these human radiation experiment reports were never completed....seeking the truth was terminated after Secretary O'Leary was fired...today, bush* has closed any oversight into the $ 5 TRILLION dollar taxpayers-funded operation of nuclear bombs....


http://tis.eh.doe.gov/ohre/index.html

DOE Human Radiation Experiments

The Office of Human Radiation Experiments, established in March 1994, leads the Department of Energy's efforts to tell the agency's Cold War story of radiation research using human subjects.






here, the medical doctors from the military inject humans with plutonium and other ghastly experiments...reminds one of hitler's experiments on humans, done by medical doctors....also, note that this site has been 'redone' under bush*...whole sections are now missing, and the experiments have put on a 'happy face' in that many are now claimed to be 'helpful' to the sick patients, rather than useful for atomic bomb research...the motives for experiments now appear rather benign....the 'patients' were never told or consented to these radiation experiments, and the military never sought to help them with developing medical problems, or to follow up as to whether they died from their experiments...
http://tis.eh.doe.gov/ohre/roadmap/overview/index.html


a few highlights of these ghastly human radiation experiments...
http://tis.eh.doe.gov/ohre/roadmap/experiments/0491doca.html#0491_Plutonium

Plutonium Injection
PI-1. Plutonium Injection Studies

DURING 1945 TO 1947, 18 persons were injected with amounts of plutonium at the Manhattan Engineer District Hospital in Oak Ridge, Tennessee, (1 patient), at Strong Memorial Hospital in Rochester, New York (11 patients), at Billings Hospital of the University of Chicago (3 patients), and at the University Hospital of the University of California in San Francisco (3 patients). Excreta were obtained from patients and sent to Los Alamos for plutonium analysis. These data were used to establish mathematical equations describing plutonium excretion rates.

ANL-15. Whole-Body Counter Calibration Using Hospital Patients Administered Cesium-132

BETWEEN 1955 AND 1964, measurements of radionuclides in subjects from natural sources and from fallout from atmospheric weapons testing were made at Argonne National Laboratory using the whole-body counter. The whole-body counter was calibrated for potassium measurements by administering known amounts of potassium-42 (K42) to subjects, both Laboratory employees and hospital patients. The whole-body counter was also calibrated for cesium by administering known amounts of cesium-132 (Cs132) to a separate group of hospital patients. The number of subjects and the amounts administered for calibration purposes were not stated. These subjects showered, dressed in activity-free garments, and were then counted for 50-minute measurements. The calibration factors were used over a period of several years to determine trends in fallout uptake. This work was supported by the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission.

BNL-9. Metabolic Studies with Manganese-54

IN 1957, Brookhaven National Laboratory conducted human metabolic studies with the isotope manganese­54 (Mn54). This study was the first to use Mn54 in human subjects. Manganese had been assumed to participate indirectly in hematopoiesis (blood formation). Two or more patients were injected with Mn54 and followed to determine count-rate at the body surface, blood radioactivity, and excretion rates. Blood taken from one of the patients 66 days after injection contained almost the entire radioactivity in the red cell fraction.

-snip- From the transcribed oral histories here
http://tis.eh.doe.gov/ohre/roadmap/histories/0475/0475b.html#Plutonium

from the interview of Health Physicist Karl Z. Morgan, Ph.D:

As I recall, he said, "Karl, you remember that nigger truck driver that had this accident sometime ago?" I said "Yes," I knew about it. He said, "Well, he was rushed to the military hospital in Oak Ridge and he had multiple fractures. Almost all of his bones were broken, and we were surprised he was alive when he got to the hospital; we did not expect him to be alive the next morning. So this was an opportunity we've been waiting for. We gave him large doses by injection of plutonium-239."

Of course, when you say "-239," it has some -238 and -240 mixed in, but primarily -239. "We were anticipating collecting not just the urine and feces but a number of tissues, such as the skeleton, the liver, and other organs of the body. But this morning, when the nurse went in his room, he was gone. We have no idea what happened, where he is, but we've lost the valuable data that we were expected to get."


under 'Search HREX' (the total index of experiments) is this message:
This site is no longer available due to lack of funding.

[stickdog]

43. Thanks. Very few Americans have a clue about this stuff.

They truly believe that these documented experiments are the stuff of The X-Files.

[Zorra]

29. Great post. Warning: Bu$h is a psychopathic lunatic.

Nuremberg Trials
Opening Address for the United States
Robert Jackson

No greater mistake could be made than to think of the Nazi Party in terms of the loose organizations which we of the western world call "political parties." In discipline, structure, and method the Nazi Party was not adapted to the democratic process of persuasion. It was an instrument of conspiracy and of coercion. The Party was not organized to take over power in the German State by winning support of a majority of the German people. It was organized to seize power in defiance of the will of the people.

http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/resource/document/DocJac02.htm

What would be that Bush moment?

My fear is that Bush and his colleagues believe that the demographic shifts in America that obliged them to sue to their way into the White House in 2000 have convinced them that the American experiment with mass democracy must come to an end. The War on Terror is their stalking horse for shitcanning the whole business of individual rights and popular government. They dream of conquering the Middle East, just as we once conquered the American West, and they realize that they cannot make this happen within the four corners of the Constitution.

So, assuming for a moment that the PNAC manifestos should be read like Mein Kampf, what should tip off the average American that we are not dealing with honest men trying to protect us from terrorists, but instead are faced with a gaggle of bloodthirsty fools consumed by the painfully familiar dream of Napoleon and Hitler?

http://www.upsizethis.org/forum/portal.php

[taquinas101]

30. Did the Nazis Seize Power Or Was It Given To Them?

Let me ask this hypothetical: If Bush and Co., through the use of mass media (Fox) and surrogates (Rush, Coulter, Hannity, Savage, etc.) convince Americans that the invasion of Iraq was right, that the torture of Iraqis isn't really torture, and that the loss of our freedoms is justified (Patriot Act), does that mean that power was seized or that it was given?

I list the following two books, which seem to take issue with the notion that the Nazis rose to power over the opposition of the majority of Germans, which contradicts the notion that the Nazi party "was organized to seize power in defiance of the will of the people." I the surrogates breathlessly describing the Berg decapitation and callers advocating indiscriminate carpet bombing of Iraq. Heck, maybe Americans are different. Perhaps its in our spiritual make-up as a people to avoid the creep towards facism, and maybe I'm just being cynical.

Backing Hitler: Consent and Coercion in Nazi Germany
by Robert Gellately. "Gellately . . . analyzes the role of "ordinary" Germans in the Nazi persecution of those deemed social and political outsiders."

Hitler's Willing Executioners : Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust
by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0679446958/reviews/104-1430307-8963933#06794469587299

[Zorra]

34. The Nazis never had a majority in the Reichstag.

They manipulated the German government through conspiracy and coercion, and manipulated a substantial segment of the population by controlling the media, and largely through the propaganda of Goebels.

Hitler manipulated himself into the post of Chancellor. A month later, the Reichstag building burned. Hitler blamed this on the Communists, and then issued the Reichstagbrandverordnung, which abrogated the following Constitutional Principles:

Free expression of opinion
Freedom of the press
Right of assembly and association
Right to privacy of postal and electronic communications
Protection against unlawful searches and seizures
Individual property rights
Federal States' right of self-government
(A supplemental decree created the SA (Storm Troops) and SS (Special Security) Federal police agencies.)

And this is when Hitler took complete control. There is a great deal of credible information available on the internet regarding the rise of Hitler and the Nazis.

IMO, because Bu$h was never truly democratically elected, no support that he has gotten through media manipulation or other means is really valid. And if the people are manipulated by a Machiavellian media, the information they receive is deliberately erroneous. To me, this means that power is seized through conspiracy.

America has remained a democracy for 227 years. Some people may be "spiritually" inclined toward fascism. There are some people with evil intentions in this world. It is our responsibility to see that these people do not gain power, and if they do, it is our duty to remove them from power.

[Karenina]

31. Eloriel, SLAD

Y'all be ALL THAT AND A BAG O' CHIPS!!! AMEN!!!!(1234) :yourock:

[seemslikeadream]

47. Thanks Karenina for always being there - Experiments on Military?

That should count for something

Medical Readiness and Tracking Act of 2004''


05/23/2004

http:/ /

NGWRC worked with the staff of Senator Clinton and provided input on this bill. This bill is an effort to correct the loopholes used by the Department of Defense in PL 105-85 section 762-767. Our advocacy is having an impact. For a complete text, go to: http://thomas.loc.gov / and enter "Medical Readiness and Tracking" as the search term for Bills in the 108th Congress. A partial text of the bill is below:

SA 3163. Mrs. CLINTON submitted an amendment intended to be proposed by her to the bill S. 2400, to authorize appropriations for fiscal year 2005 for military activities of the Department of Defense, for military construction, and for defense activities of the Department of Energy, to prescribe personnel strengths for such fiscal year for the Armed Services, and for other purposes; which was ordered to lie on the table; as follows:


On page 296, between lines 14 and 15, insert the following:



TITLE XIII--MEDICAL READINESS AND TRACKING
SEC. 1300. SHORT TITLE.

This title may be cited as the ``Medical Readiness and Tracking Act of 2004''.



Subtitle A--Reserve Component Personnel
SEC. 1301. STUDY OF HEALTH OF RESERVES ORDERED TO ACTIVE DUTY FOR OPERATIONS ENDURING FREEDOM AND IRAQI FREEDOM.

(a) REQUIREMENT FOR GAO STUDY.--The Comptroller General of the United States shall carry out a study of the health of the members of the reserve components of the Armed Forces who have been called or ordered to active duty for a period of more than 30 days in support of Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Iraqi Freedom. The Comptroller General shall commence the study not later than 180 days after the date of the enactment of this Act.

(b) PURPOSES.--The purposes of the study under this section are as follows:

(1) To review the health status and medical fitness of the activated Reserves when they were called or ordered to active duty.

(2) To review the effects, if any, on logistics planning and the deployment schedules for the operations referred to in subsection (a) that resulted from deficiencies in the health or medical fitness of activated Reserves.

(3) To review compliance of the responsible Department of Defense personnel with Department of Defense policies on routine medical and physical fitness examinations that are applicable to the reserve components of the Armed Forces.

(4) To review in the case of activated Reserves deployed to the theater of an operation referred to in subsection (a), the medical care that was provided to such personnel in the theater during the first six months after arrival in the theater.

(c) REPORT.--The Comptroller General shall, not later than 18 months after the date of the enactment of this Act, submit a report on the results of the study under this section to the Committees on Armed Services of the Senate and the House of Representatives. The report shall include the following matters:

(1) With respect to the matters reviewed under paragraph (1) of subsection (b)--

(A) the percentage of activated Reserves who were determined to be medically unfit for deployment, together with an analysis of the medical illnesses or conditions most commonly found among the activated Reserves that were grounds for determinations of medical unfitness for deployment; and

(B) the percentage of the activated Reserves who, before being deployed, needed medical care for health conditions identified when called or ordered to active duty, together with an analysis of the types of care that were provided for such conditions.

(2) With respect to the matters reviewed under paragraph (2) of subsection (b)--

(A) the delays and other disruptions in deployment schedules that resulted from deficiencies in the health status or medical fitness of activated Reserves; and

(B) an analysis of the extent to which it was necessary to merge units or otherwise alter the composition of units, and the extent to which it was necessary to merge or otherwise alter objectives, in order to compensate for limitations on the deployability of activated Reserves resulting from deficiencies in the health status or medical fitness of activated Reserves.

(3) With respect to the matters reviewed under paragraph (3) of subsection (b), an assessment of the extent of the compliance of the responsible Department of Defense personnel with Department of Defense policies on routine medical and physical fitness examinations that are applicable to the reserve components of the Armed Forces.

(4) With respect to the matters reviewed under paragraph (4) of subsection (b), an analysis of the extent to which the medical care provided to activated Reserves in each theater of operations referred to in subsection (a) related to preexisting conditions that were not adequately addressed before the deployment of such personnel to the theater.

(d) DEFINITIONS.--In this section:

(1) The term ``activated Reserves'' means the members of the Armed Forces referred to in subsection (a).

(2) The term ``active duty for a period of more than 30 days'' has the meaning given such term in section 101(d) of title 10, United States Code.

(3) The term ``health condition'' includes a dental condition.

(4) The term ``reserve components of the Armed Forces'' means the reserve components listed in section 10101 of title 10, United States Code.

SEC. 1302. PHYSICAL EXAMINATIONS.

(a) REQUIREMENT.--Section 10206(a) of title 10, United States Code, is amended by striking ``shall--'' and all that follows and inserting ``shall be examined as to his physical fitness every 30 months, or more often as the Secretary concerned considers necessary.''.

(b) EFFECTIVE DATE.--This section and the amendment made by subsection (a) shall take effect on October 1, 2004.

SEC. 1303. RETRAINING OR SEPARATION OF MEDICALLY UNFIT MEMBERS.

(a) REQUIREMENT.--Chapter 1007 of title 10, United States Code, is amended by inserting after section 10206 the following new section:``§10206a. Required actions for members not medically fit

``(a) IN GENERAL.--The Secretary of a military department shall take action under subsection (b) in the case of each member of a reserve component under the Secretary's jurisdiction who--

``(1) as a result of an examination under section 10206 of this title or any other physical or medical examination performed under regulations prescribed by the Secretary, is determined not medically qualified for the performance of the duties of such member's position; and

``(2) either--

``(A) as of the date that is 180 days after the date of that determination, is not making progress to become medically qualified in accordance with a plan approved under regulations prescribed by the Secretary; or

``(B) does not become medically qualified for the position within the period covered by such a plan.

``(b) REQUIRED ACTIONS.--A member of a reserve component described in subsection (a)--

``(1) shall be reassigned to a position in such reserve component for which the member is medically and otherwise qualified; or

``(2) if there is no position in such reserve component for which the member is medically and otherwise qualified, shall be separated from such reserve component.''.

(b) CLERICAL AMENDMENT.--The table of sections at the beginning of such chapter is amended by inserting after the item relating to section 10206 the following new item:


``10206a. Required actions for members not medically fit.''.

SEC. 1304. POLICY ON DEFERRAL OF MEDICAL TREATMENT PENDING DEPLOYMENT TO THEATERS OF OPERATION.

(a) REQUIREMENT FOR POLICY.--(1) Chapter 1007 of title 10, United States Code, as amended by section 1303, is further amended by inserting after section 10206a the following new section:``§10206b. Members ordered to active duty: treatment of medical conditions

``(a) POLICY REQUIRED.--The Secretary of Defense shall prescribe a policy that specifies for members of the reserve components


called or ordered to active duty for a period of more than 30 days under a provision of law referred to in section 101(a)(13)(B) of this title--

(1) the circumstances under which treatment for medical conditions may be deferred to be provided within a theater of operations in order to prevent delay or other disruption of a deployment to that theater; and

(2) the circumstances under which medical conditions are to be treated before deployment to that theater.

``(b) FACTORS TO BE CONSIDERED.--The policy under subsection (a) shall specify the factors to be considered in a determination of deferral or initiation of treatment of a medical condition of a member to be deployed to a theater of operations, including the following factors:

``(1) Severity of the condition, including the extent of risk of significant aggravation of the condition if treatment is delayed or inadequate.

``(2) Medical treatment capabilities available to the member for such condition in the theater of operations.

``(3) The cost of treatment of the condition in such theater as compared to the cost of treatment of the condition under chapter 55 of this title at or in the vicinity of the facility or installation from which the member is to be deployed.''.

(2) The table of sections at the beginning of such chapter, as amended by section 1303(b), is further amended by inserting after the item relating to section 10206a the following new item:


``10206b. Members ordered to active duty: treatment of medical conditions.''.


(b) TIME FOR ISSUANCE OF POLICY.--The Secretary of Defense shall issue the policy required by section 10206b of title 10, United States Code (as added by subsection (a)), not later than 180 days after the date of the enactment of this Act.



Subtitle B--All Armed Forces Personnel


PART I--HEALTH SCREENING

SEC. 1311. RECRUIT ASSESSMENT PROGRAM.

(a) BASELINE HEALTH DATA.--(1) Chapter 55 of title 10, United States Code, is amended by inserting after section 1092 the following new section:``§1092a. Persons entering the armed forces: baseline health data

``(a) PROGRAM REQUIRED.--The Secretary of Defense shall, for the purposes set forth in subsection (b), carry out a program for--

``(1) the routine collection of baseline health data from all persons entering the armed forces;

``(2) computerized compilation and maintenance of the baseline health data; and

``(3) analysis of the data.

``(b) PURPOSES.--The program under this section shall be designed to achieve the following purposes:

``(1) To facilitate understanding of how exposures related to service in the armed forces affect health.

``(2) To facilitate development of early intervention and prevention programs to protect health and readiness.

``(c) BASELINE HEALTH DATA DEFINED.--In this section, the term `baseline health data', with respect to a person entering any of the armed forces, means comprehensive information on the health of that person upon entry.

``(d) APPLICABILITY TO COAST GUARD.--(1) The program under this section shall apply to members of the Coast Guard to the extent approved by the Secretary of Homeland Security.

``(2) Nothing in paragraph (1) shall be construed to limit the application of the program under this section to a member of the Coast Guard in that member's capacity as a person entering a reserve component of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps.''.

(2) The table of sections at the beginning of such chapter is amended by inserting after the item relating to section 1092 the following new item:


``1092a. Persons entering the armed forces: baseline health data.''.


(b) TIME FOR IMPLEMENTATION.--The Secretary of Defense shall implement the program required under section 1092a of title 10, United States Code (as added by paragraph (1)), not later than two years after the date of the enactment of this Act.

SEC. 1312. FURTHER REFINEMENT OF MEDICAL TRACKING SYSTEM FOR MEMBERS DEPLOYED OVERSEAS.

(a) ESTABLISHMENT OF ADVISORY WORKING GROUP.--(1) Not later than 90 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Secretary of Defense shall convene a working group to improve the medical tracking system for members deployed overseas established under section 1074f of title 10, United States Code.

(2) The working group under paragraph (1) shall be composed of any number of members, not less than 12 and not more than 20, that the Secretary of Defense determines appropriate for the working group to carry out its duties effectively, including members appointed by the Secretary as follows:

(A) One or more representatives of the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Health Affairs.

(B) One or more representatives of the Secretary of Veterans Affairs, with the consent of the Secretary.

(C) One or more civilian health professionals who have expertise in public health and epidemiology.

(D) Three or more civilian health professionals who have been involved in military health research or treatment.

(E) Three or more civilian health professionals who have been involved in environmental health research or treatment.

(F) Three or more civilians who are representative of veterans and military health advocacy organizations.

(3) The working group shall--

(A) analyze the strengths and weaknesses of the medical tracking system administered under section 1074f of title 10, United States Code, as a means for detecting--

(i) any health problems (including mental health conditions) of members of the Armed Forces contemporaneous with the performance of the assessment under the system; and

(ii) exposures of the assessed members to environmental hazards that potentially lead to future health problems;

(B) analyze the strengths and weaknesses of such medical tracking system as a means for supporting future research on health issues presenting in the years following the deployment of the members of the Armed Forces assessed under the system; and

(C) identify and develop recommended changes to such medical tracking system that strengthen the system as a means for--

(i) detecting health problems and exposures to environmental hazards as described in subparagraph (A); and

(ii) supporting future research as described in subparagraph (B).

(4) Not later than 180 days after convening, the working group shall submit to the Secretary a report setting forth the analyses and recommendations of the working group.

(b) ACTIONS BY SECRETARY OF DEFENSE.--Not later than 180 days after receipt of the report under subsection (a)(4), the Secretary of Defense shall prescribe regulations to implement the recommendations of the working group to the extent that the Secretary considers appropriate. The regulations shall include policies and standards for drawing blood samples for effective assessment and tracking of the medical conditions of personnel before deployment, upon the end of a deployment, and for a follow-up period of appropriate length.

(c) INTERIM STANDARDS FOR BLOOD SAMPLING.--(1) The Secretary of Defense shall require that, under the medical tracking system administered under section 1074f of title 10, United States Code--

(A) the blood samples necessary for the predeployment medical examination of a member of the Armed Forces required under subsection (b) of such section be drawn not earlier than 30 days before the date of the deployment;

(B) the blood samples necessary for the postdeployment medical examination of a member of the Armed Forces required under such subsection be drawn not later than 30 days after the date on which the deployment ends; and

(C) annually, for the first three years after the deployment of a member ends, blood samples be drawn from that person for the purpose of assessing the medical condition of such person under such system.

(2) In the case of a person who is no longer a member of the Armed Forces when a blood sample is to be drawn from such person under paragraph (1)(C), the blood may be drawn at any medical facility of the uniformed services designated by the Secretary of Defense. The Secretary shall attempt to accommodate the convenience of that person in selecting a facility for the drawing of that person's blood sample.

(3) The requirements of paragraph (1) shall cease to be effective on the date on which the regulations prescribed under subsection (b) take effect.



PART II--MEDICAL CARE IN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

SEC. 1315. MEDICAL SERVICES PROVIDED IN ALLIED HEALTH FACILITIES.

Not later than one year after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Health Affairs shall submit to the Secretary of Defense and the Committees on Armed Services of the Senate and the House of Representatives a report on the extent and types of medical services that were provided to members of the Armed Forces in facilities of allies of the United States during previous and current deployments of the Armed Forces, including Operations Desert Shield, Desert Storm, Joint Endeavor, Joint Forge, Joint Guardian, Enduring Freedom, and Iraqi Freedom.

SEC. 1316. DEVELOPMENT OF POLICY ON PERSONNEL LOCATION DATA.

(a) REQUIREMENT FOR POLICY.--The Secretary of Defense shall prescribe a Department of Defense policy on the collection and dissemination of in-theater individual personnel location data for the following purposes:

(1) To facilitate health care research and informed health care policy making for the Armed Forces.

(2) To enhance the capabilities of the Armed Forces to recognize and meet the health care needs of members of the Armed Forces returning to home stations from deployment to a theater of operations.

(b) ADVISORY WORKING GROUP.--(1) The Secretary shall establish a working group to advise the Secretary on the development of the policy under subsection (a). The working group shall include the following:

(A) One or more representatives of the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Health Affairs.

(B) One or more representatives of the Secretary of Veterans Affairs, with the consent of the Secretary.


(C) One or more representatives of the program manager for the Global Combat Support System.

(D) One or more representatives of the defense manpower data center.

(E) One or more representatives of the program manager for the Land Warrior System.

(F) One or more civilian health professionals who have been involved in research and treatment of Gulf War Syndrome.

(G) One or more representatives of the Joint Staff.

(2) In developing the policy recommendations, the working group shall take into consideration--

(A) traditional medical requirements for complete and open access to specific, individual personnel location data to provide for--

(i) adequate and independent peer review by all interested parties; and

(ii) an open and transparent process for setting scientifically rigorous health policy and formulating clinical guidelines for care;

(B) traditional operational requirements for securing personnel location data so as to prevent--

(i) compromise of mission objectives; or

(ii) unauthorized disclosure of tactical and logistical planning; and

(C) existing practical limitations on the collection of such data, together with solutions for eliminating such limitations.

SEC. 1317. REPORT ON TRAINING OF FIELD MEDICAL PERSONNEL.

(a) REQUIREMENT FOR REPORT.--Not later than one year after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Secretary of Defense shall submit to the Committees on Armed Services of the Senate and the House of Representatives a report on the training on environmental hazards that is provided by the Armed Forces to medical personnel of the Armed Forces who are deployable to the field in direct support of combat personnel.

(b) CONTENT.--The report under subsection (a) shall include the following:

(1) An assessment of the adequacy of the training regarding--

(A) the identification of--

(i) common environmental hazards; and

(ii) exposures to such hazards; and

(B) the prevention and treatment of adverse health effects of such exposures.

(2) A discussion of the actions taken and to be taken to improve such training.



PART III--MEDICAL CARE AFTER RETURN FROM DEPLOYMENT

SEC. 1321. FINDINGS.

Congress makes the following findings:

(1) One out of every nine members of the Armed Forces returning to home station from a deployment overseas listed on the member's post-deployment self-reported health assessment under the Health Evaluation Assessment Review program of the United States Army Center for Health Promotion and Preventive Medicine a concern about possibly having been exposed to environmental hazards deleterious to the member's health during the deployment, according to an article in the edition of the Medical Surveillance Monthly Report published for July and August 2003 by the Army Medical Surveillance Activity of the Directorate of Epidemiology and Disease Surveillance of the United States Army Center for Health Promotion and Prevention of Disease.

(2) This constitutes a high proportion of members who might have suffered exposure to environmental hazards that potentially lead to immediate or future health problems.

SEC. 1322. REPORT ON RESPONSES TO HEALTH CONCERNS OF MEMBERS.

(a) REQUIREMENT FOR REPORT.--Not later than 180 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Health Affairs shall submit to the Secretary of Defense and the Committees on Armed Services of the Senate and the House of Representatives a report on Department of Defense responses to expressions of concerns made as described in section 221(1).

(b) CONTENT.--The report regarding health concerns submitted under subsection (a) shall include the following:

(1) A discussion of the actions taken by Department of Defense officials to investigate the circumstances underlying such concerns in order to determine the validity of the concerns.

(2) A discussion of the actions taken by Department of Defense officials to evaluate or treat members and former members of the Armed Forces who are confirmed to have been exposed to environmental hazards deleterious to their health during deployments of the Armed Forces.

SEC. 1323. RESPONSIBILITIES OF INSTALLATION COMMANDERS.

(a) PREPARATIONS TO MEET HEALTH CARE NEEDS.--Chapter 55 of title 10, United States Code, is amended by inserting after section 1074k the following new section:``§1074l. Care of members redeploying from overseas deployment

``(a) NEEDS ASSESSMENT.--The Secretary of Defense shall require the commander of each military installation at which members of the armed forces are to be processed upon redeployment from an overseas deployment--

``(1) to identify and analyze the anticipated health care needs of such members before the arrival of such members at that installation; and

``(2) to report such needs to the Secretary.

``(b) DATA SOURCES.--To carry out the duties imposed under subsection (a), the commander of an installation shall obtain the necessary information from the sources available to the commander, including the following information:

``(1) Information on schedules and locations from transportation and logistics personnel.

``(2) Information on disease and nonbattle injuries from the Surgeon General of the armed force concerned.

``(3) Information collected from environmental surveillance of the theater of military operations from which members are redeploying.

``(4) Information on the prevalence of combat and noncombat injuries, to the extent relevant.

``(c) HEALTH CARE TO MEET NEEDS.--The Secretary of Defense shall prescribe in regulations procedures for the commander of each military installation described in subsection (a) to meet the anticipated health care needs that are identified by the commander in the performance of duties under this section. The procedures shall include the following:

``(1) Arrangements for health care provided by the Secretary of Veterans Affairs.

``(2) Procurement of services from local health care providers.

``(3) Temporary employment of health care personnel to provide services at such installation.''.

(b) CLERICAL AMENDMENT.--The table of sections at the beginning of such chapter is amended by inserting after the item relating to section 1074k the following new item:


``1074l. Care of members redeploying from overseas deployment.''.



Subtitle C--Policy Compliance Assurance
SEC. 1331. SERUM REPOSITORY AUDITS.

(a) REQUIREMENT FOR BIENNIAL AUDIT.--(1) Chapter 55 of title 10, United States Code, is amended by inserting after section 1073a the following new section:``§1073b. Serum repository audits

``(a) PERIODIC AUDITS.--The Secretary of Defense shall require the director of the serum repository of the Department of Defense to audit at least twice every two years the records of blood samples stored in such repository to determine the percentage of members of the armed forces who are in compliance with the applicable Department of Defense and military department policies on the collection of blood samples from members of the armed forces. The Secretary may impose any higher minimum number of periodic audits under this section that the Secretary considers appropriate.

``(b) REPORT.--(1) Upon completion of an audit under subsection (a), the director of the serum repository shall submit a report on the audit to the Secretary of Defense. The report shall include the following information:

``(A) The compliance percentage determined under such subsection.

``(B) A discussion of the most common compliance problems identified.

``(C) Any recommendations for actions to improve compliance.

``(2) The Secretary shall transmit the report received under paragraph (1) to the Committees on Armed Services of the Senate and the House of Representatives. The Secretary may include any comments and recommendations that the Secretary considers appropriate.''.

(2) The table of sections at the beginning of such chapter is amended by inserting after the item relating to section 1073a the following new item:


``1073b. Serum repository audits.''.


(b) INITIAL AUDIT.--The first audit under section 1073b of title 10, United States Code (as added by subsection (a)), shall be completed not later than 180 days after the date of the enactment of this Act.

SEC. 1332. DEPLOYMENT-RELATED HEALTH ASSESSMENT AUDITS.

(a) REQUIREMENT FOR BIENNIAL AUDIT.--Section 1074f(d) of title 10, United States Code, is amended--

(1) by inserting ``(1)'' after ``(d) QUALITY ASSURANCE.--''; and

(2) by adding at the end the following:

``(2)(A) The Secretary of Defense shall require the director of the Defense Medical Surveillance System to audit, every two years, the predeployment and postdeployment health assessment database maintained by the director in order to determine the percentage of members of the armed forces who are in compliance with the applicable Department of Defense and military department policies on the collection of predeployment and postdeployment health assessment data.

``(B) Upon completion of the biennial audit under subparagraph (A), the director of the Defense Medical Surveillance System shall submit a report on the audit to the Secretary of Defense. The report shall include the following information:

``(i) The compliance percentage determined under such audit.

``(ii) A discussion of the most common compliance problems identified.

``(
more
http://www.ngwrc.org/NewsArticle.cfm?NewsID=871


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seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Tue Jun-01-04 11:48 PM
Response to Original message

4. Combat trauma haunts yet another generation


This time around, soldiers have been deployed longer, the fighting has been more intense and there's been a greater reliance on reservists to fight, said Dr. Dewleen Baker, medical director of the Gulf War Clinic at the VA facility on Vine Street in Corryville.

All of the country's 159 VA medical centers will screen returning veterans for post-traumatic stress disorder, Baker said. But the program only works if veterans take it upon themselves to seek help.

Of the 128,000 soldiers who have returned from Iraq, about 14 percent - or 18,000 - have sought care at VA health facilities, government officials reported at the end of March. A separate report issued in mid-April said 4,000 troops from the war in Afghanistan sought care.

The most common health issues have been musculoskeletal ailments, principally joint and back disorders, and dental problems.

Mental disorders were diagnosed in 16 percent of the Afghanistan veterans and 15 percent of the Iraqi veterans.

Locally, Baker is treating 11 veterans, including Johnson. Common symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder include flashbacks, nightmares, panic attacks, anger, emotional withdrawal and depression.

more
http://www.ngwrc.org/NewsArticle.cfm?NewsID=869

Ballad of Penny Evans

My name is Penny Evans and my age is twenty-one
I'm a widow of the war that was fought in Vietnam
I have two baby daughters and I do the best I can
They say the war is over but I think it's just begun

I remember I was seventeen when first I met my Bill
At his father's grand piano we played old 'Heart and Soul'
I only knew the left hand part, he knew the right so well
He's the only boy I slept with, and the only one I will

First we had a baby girl, we had two good years
And next the warning notice came, we parted without tears
Then it's nine months from our last goodbye our second child appears
And it's ten months and a telegram confirming all our fears

So once a month I get a check from some army bureaucrat
And once a month I tear it up and mail the damn thing back
Do they think that makes it all right? Do they think I'll fall for that?
They can keep their bloody money, it won't bring my Billy back

I never cared for politics, speeches I don't understand
Likewise I'll take no charity from any living man
But tonight there's fifty thousand gone in that unhappy land
And fifty thousand 'Heart and Souls' being played with just one hand

My name is Penny Evans and my age is twenty-one
I'm a widow of the war that was fought in Vietnam
I have two baby daughters - thank God I have no son
They say the war is over but I think it's just begun

Steve Goodman

[never cry wolf]

35. I must add some comments here (as well as kick this great thread)

I have read quite a bit on how the nazis took over Germany, being an architect Albert Speer's "Inside the Third Reich" inspired me to try to learn more. I am afraid that I cannot hope to exude the wisdom of many of the above posts but from my readings it would seem that the majority of everyday Germans in the 20's and early 30's were really pretty enthusiastic about Hitler and nazism. They were coming off WWI and the Versailles Treaty really just devastated their country. The atmosphere was ripe for the picking for a nationalistic "who can we blame" regime.

the little mustachioed man gave them what they yearned for, told them they were better than their lot in life at the time and deserved better. During the depression the US had alot of dissidence as well. My grandpa participated in the bonus march on DC. Anyway, he got a bit of power, schemed to take more and once that happened he took control of the media and purged the military. The pattern is the same in so many respects.

What baffles me is that unlike the ordinary German in the 20's needing a wheelbarrow to carry enough cash to buy the groceries, bunnypants was able to pull this off during a time of great prosperity. The Versailles treaty WAS an unfair b***h-slap upon the regular german people and it is easy to see why popular support for a drastic change was easy to come by. For the USA in 2000 I cannot explain it other than the strict media control combined with the greed of a middle class who had gotten a taste and felt it was their priveledge.

[Eloriel]

37. A time of prosperity, yes, but also a time of fear after 9-11

That's the main ingredient, I think.

For the USA in 2000 I cannot explain it other than the strict media control combined with the greed of a middle class who had gotten a taste and felt it was their priveledge.

Not quite sure what you're referring to -- that Bush got as many votes as he did across the country? That we didn't take to the streets after the bogus Supreme Court decision?

In any case, in the months after his inauguration he had horrible job approval ratings -- right up until 9-11 at which time he became almost untouchable relative to any criticism at all.

But I fault the media most of all -- I won't go through the whole routine, we all know it by heart. Sufficeth it to say that if we had a free and independent press, it's my opinion that George Bush would've been impeached by summer of 2002, but would've never been elected to start with. The vast majority of people in this country get ALL their national news from TV, "where Reality lives." They get it in passing, on the run, with half attention, waiting for the sports segment...it's very passive on their part. And the Bushies know this -- and exploit it -- very, very well.

[never cry wolf]

40. I agree entirely with your reply

Sorry to be so obtuse in my post, I meant to even have enough votes to be close enough to steal the election in the first place after such a successful Dem Administration.

There were some threads, last week I think, about how limpballs was trying to blame the clenis for the poor morals of the soldiers, saying he showed them the depravity. My argument was that it was the RW media that made such a big deal out of it, a Federal Case, literally!

It has been the complicity of the media from the early days of Clinton through 9-11 and only until recently that has endowed the bfee, and even so it is nowhere near where it should be in exposing the truth. Could you just imagine if the special prosecutor law were still in effect and the whores fed on it like in the 90's? shrubbie would have been in irons years ago as he so deserves to be.

on edit: Along with the prevailing economic conditions, that is one other variation with the rise of the nazi's, the bfee had control of the media BEFORE their rise to power.

[mzmolly]

42. Another interesting parallell about Nazi Germany is that the Nazi

party only got about 15% of the vote. The rest of the vote was split among many (mostly leftist) votes.

Somehow when I ponder this the *duopoly* sounds might fine. :(

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[yellowdawgdem]

44. what to do about it?

I agree with those who find apt comparisons between the Hitler and Bush regimes. The question for me is, what to do about it?
I haven't had direct experience or that of a family member in the Holocaust, though I do have family who fled eastern europe to get away from stuff that was happening even before the Nazi takeover. I guess there were pogroms, and persecution of Jews for a long time before the actual roundup's. And those came as a surprise, just as people did not know where those trains were heading.
It just seems that history builds on what came before, over small increments usually. Part of our history is dissent.
I feel good seeing so many attempts at dissent/protest- the Plame outing, these Enron tapes, the torture camp video footage, so many books written, and on and on. The small things, too, the everyday talk on the street.
But, there never seems to be the smoking gun. It's like the information gets processed, and then it gets swallowed up into a dark hole, and people just stop talking about it. Maybe that's because they see that the * admin always spins their way out of these situations, and can intimidate or threaten to back it up. In the instance of Paul O'neill's book, he actually retracted alot of his statements during interviews.
And then there are alot of little, nagging instances such as Clinton Being shoved by Bush senior. Somehow this bothered me because it seemed to blur the lines between reality and spin. You really could not tell what was going on, and it was passed off as a joke. We were encouraged to do so by the media. Yet one of the Canadian du'ers pointed out that he definitely thought it looked like a more serious gesture- a hostile gesture.
I have to say I am often reminded of the Diary of Anne Frank, where they were obsessively listening to the radio, hoping for some good news.
I'm sure the 'ordinary germans' as someone said, were much like 'ordinary Americans.' Really good people who never wanted to see anybody get hurt-- definitely not the Jews, not disabled or marginal groups. But when push comes to shove, you do protect family and loved ones. I don't think it would be seen as wrong or selfish if, knowing the consequences, you did not take the risk.
But then, the thought has occurred to me that perhaps the bfee are consciously staying away from Jewish persecution at this time, because it would be a red flag. And they have their hands full with persecuting gays and political dissidents- and immigrants as well.
I would say that I feel very scared about the similarities, and wish that I had more of a sense of how to fight this amorphous monster. but want to keep some perspective, too. And one positive thought that I have is, if we wind up with an out of control government (more than now), it will burn itself out rather quickly. As horrible as the Iraq war is, and I am deeply distressed over the mutilation and deaths that I see- esp. the children.
yet I also see that the Iraqi's have a strong resistance, and will continue to resist occupation. I think that we can learn from this, and have a ways to go yet.

[diamond14]

48. there are many, many things that YOU can do.....here's a few.....

write to YOUR Congressional Representatives and DEMAND action...



take action by participating in street protests...
June 5, 2004...in DC, LA, SF and cities/towns all across America...
http://www.InternationalANSWER.org



volunteer on Kerry's campaign...all the ideas and info on this link:
http://www.JohnKerry.com



FIGHT hate and PROMOTE TOLERANCE....lots of ideas on this link...from Jimmy Carter and the Southern Poverty Law Center
http://www.tolerance.org/


artwork, songs, theatre, poetry all have a very BIG influence on people....use your talents and encourage others to fight bush* through the arts.....(hitler controlled all the arts because he knew what a great influence that has on people)....use the ARTS to fight bush* and influence American thought...


street theatre at a Belgium train station...showing the wedding in Iraq, bombed by bush*

[yellowdawgdem]

49. thankyou for the suggestions

Well, yes, I do a few of those- what I feel comfortable with. Still am left with wanting to do something more than just writing to congress, or just working on the Kerry campaign. Will figure it out probably- maybe the creative slant would actually be the thing. thanks for the links, too!

[ngGale]

52. KICK

[NV1962]

53. It's no time to be timid and coy

It's time to answer BIG.

[diamond14]

56. BIG rally in DC, SF, LA, and cities all across America....Sat., JUNE 5.

will YOU stand up to object to bush* torture and killing of Iraqis? or will YOU be complicit in your silence....


JUNE 5...this Saturday...all across America...

http://www.InternationalANSWER.org

[Fear]

55. Many things from WWII practiced by Hitler you see happening

right now - but then in a very poor format.

Perhaps something that should be noticed is the way Hitler was capable of producing Propaganda, despite that it was horrible - he and his people where AWESOME with all of that - there's so much to learn from that. Hitler was the Advertising master.

Bush & co are doing a so so job at it but it resembles the propaganda machine from Hitler a lot.

[seemslikeadream]

57. The Passing of a Great Race by American eugenicist Madison Grant

repeat from post 17

just a reminder what Hitler was reading BEFORE............


The Passing of a Great Race by American eugenicist Madison Grant


Against the mongrelization of the submerged tenth, the eugenicists posed the purity of the Nordic races. Peoples of the north, they held, had forged their superiority over generations through the struggle to survive in severe environments. The weaker members had long been eliminated by natural selection.


This was set out in texts like The Passing of a Great Race by American eugenicist Madison Grant, which Hitler read while imprisoned in the mid '20s for inciting mob violence.


(The German translation was published by Hitler's co-conspirator Julius Lehman; Hitler even wrote Grant a fan letter declaring the book his "Bible.")

http://www.popmatters.com/books/reviews/w/war-against-the-weak.shtml

[diamond14]

60. watch this GREAT flash video from symbolman...only take a minute

and tells the WHOLE story....

title:
"bush* is not a nazi, so stop saying that"

just open this link and it should pop right up and play....only takes a minute of your time, and well worth it...

http://www.takebackthemedia.com/bushnonazi.html

[NV1962]

61. Good one! - n/t