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[Q]

1. Indeed...

...Democracy and representative government are now optional. The US is now a banana republic. So now you know why we're encouraged to 'get over' the stolen 2000 presidential election.

-

[bryant69]

2. I don't know

It livens up the summer now that most of the decent movies have come and gone (winner --> Pirates of the Carribean)

The truth is it's all legal. Granted this is clearly not what the originator of the recall drive would have wanted, and it does need to be stressed that this is the work of a multi millionaire to set up the petition signing drive.

But the number of candidates entering makes it somewhat thrilling, in a way. Democracy is messy and often leads to the other guys winning, but that's just part of what it is.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Name removed]

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[blm]

3. They used the same tactic in Florida...

hanging chads were a big joke. Never mind that a presidency was being stolen.

[RichM]

22. I was going to make this very same point, but you already nailed it.

The pretense that the phrase "hanging chads" was so terribly amusing was the same exact kind of thing. The strategy is to treat developments that should be taken seriously with a tone of light & airy festivity. At the same time, things that should NOT be paid that much attention (like anything portraying Arabs as menacing, such as this morning's "lead story" about Libya getting ready to make a deal about the downed Pan Am flight of 15 yrs ago) are presented in tones of fear & utmost gravity.

[izzie]

4. Takes Bush's problems off the front page.

n/t

[Diesle]

5. Im not aware of

how a legal recal election is classified as a theft. The legality of this action can not be questioned. Beyond that, there is a very high level of support for this action in the populace of CA. I think the loudest squaking about this matter is comming from outside the state.


Diesle

[realFedUp]

7. I don't know how much support this recall really has...

No one I know is for it. Do you want to post numbers of
"high support" with a link?

This is a diversion from the real business and problems
the people and legislators need to face in this state.
When we wake up on Oct. 9th when votes should be tallied,
the problems will still be there.

Vote no on recall.

[Diesle]

11. .

http://www.gallup.com/poll/releases/pr030801.asp

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/08/11/calif.recall/index.html

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/politics/recall/20030809-2057-ca-recall-poll.html

Shall I continue?


Diesle

[Capn Sunshine]

15. Maybe you SHOULD continue

since those are all Push-polled examples of media whoredom that ask questions like "Do you think Gray Davis , the worst governor of all time, responsible for ALL of Californias woes, should be recalled if this is true"

Funny, but my polling numbers conclusively demonstrate that the recall was NEVER populist, and in fact, were it not for the largesse of an overreaching multi millionaire republican congressman using paid supporters from an out of state "buck per signature" signature gathering company,
THE RECALL NEVER WOULD HAVE QUALIFIED.

Maybe THAT is what we mean by theft of an election by those with a larger agenda.

Or maybe Enron Pres. Ken Lay met with Arnold Schwarzenegger in May of 2001 to discuss "Terminator 3". Or the Godfather of energy deregulation, Pete Wilson, now runs Arnold's campaign.

Yeah, I guess Texas energy companies are about as populist as you can get, huh?
:nuke:

[realFedUp]

47. Looking at the fine print....

http://www.gallup.com/poll/releases/pr030801.asp
-snip-
(this was a poll of 100 adults...)
Among Californians, however, a slight majority -- 54% -- say they would vote to recall their governor, while 43% would not, and another 3% express no opinion. (A Los Angeles Times poll, conducted June 28-July 2, which included a sample of 1,127 registered voters in California, found similar results: 51% of registered voters supported the recall of Governor Davis, while 42% were opposed.)

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/08/11/calif.recall/index.html
-snip-
Sunday's poll included interviews with 801 registered voters from August 7-10. It has a margin of error of plus-or-minus 4 percentage points.
(this article doesn't even have the polling questions listed or
the question of what percentage think recall is a good idea.
There was a question of just recalling Davis, but that doesn't address the question of recalling period.)

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/politics/recall/20030809-2057-ca-recall-poll.html

-snip-
The poll interviewed 508 registered voters on Friday and had a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 4.3 percent.
Voters were split on whether the recall is good or bad for California, with 47 percent saying it is good for the state and 46 percent saying it is not. A slim majority – 52 percent – said the recall does not make California look foolish to the rest of the country, while 42 percent said it does.


Shall I continue....

[Gloria]

60. CNN is scrolling a poll saying that 64% favor recall...

CNN pukey pundits (Brownstein, Weintraub,) were saying that Davis has to do something QUICK to get the focus back on the issue of Recall vs. No recall because right now, the buzz is all about "who will win" ...not should the recall be passed or not.......

[Sapphocrat]

66. Are you IN California?

If not, then I see why you might be duped by polls. Do you honestly believe *'s approval ratings too?

I have yet to meet a single Californian who approves of, let alone supports, this circus -- including diehard Republicans.

There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.

[RichM]

17. Sniff sniff.... Hey, something around here smells like a Republican...

[Capn Sunshine]

21. *cough*

*cough*freeper*cough*

[shanti]

68. he was tombstoned

as we figured...

[peekaloo]

6. heard Terry McAuliffe state on a radio interview yesterday

that if the winner of the recall pulls less than 15% of the vote the Democratic Party would consider a recall....:eyes:

and the beat goes on........

[slackmaster]

8. You're missing the whole point!

Davis will be removed from office only if a MAJORITY of VOTERS WHO BOTHER TO SHOW UP AND VOTE say so.

It doesn't get more Democratic than that.

[JanMichael]

10. Are you being sarcastic?

Or are you serious?

[slackmaster]

13. Completely serious!!!

This is real Democracy at its finest.

Anyone can propose removing an elected official, but only THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE decides whether or not it happens.

If the process needs to be adjusted, this incident will provide data to allow that to happen in an orderly manner.

[JanMichael]

16. What do you think Elections are for, amusement?

Especially one that was just a few months ago?

Don't they coount for anything?

[slackmaster]

18. The entertainment value neither helps nor hurts Democracy

There's no rule anywhere that says elections can't be ironic, bizarre, or even fun.

If you live in California and take the issue seriously, all you have to do is get to the polls and vote. What's so freaking hard about that?

[edward]

24. This may be factually true; it is a legal recall.

But it seems rather obvious that like the impeachment of Clinton, the whole point is to embarass the office holder. Republicans win no matter what the outcome is.

[slackmaster]

25. Repubs will lose BIG TIME if the recall fails

How would you consider it a Republican victory if the recall effort FAILS?

The outcome would be:

- Darrell Issa out his 1.x million dollars and nothing to show for it

- Arnold Schwarzenegger back to Hollywood where he belongs

- Gray Davis still in office, hopefully humbled into doing a better job

- Anyone who was considering another right-wing coup likely to think twice about it

[edward]

26. You weaken Davis simply by having the recall.

It already happened. Don't know what Issa will get in the future.
Schwazenaegger, like Gary Coleman and others, get publicity for whatever their next project is.
Right wing coup? Succeeded in impeaching an otherwise popular president; stole the Florida election and presidency; put recall of California governor with the "Terminator" as his chief opponent.
Looks like right wing coups are pretty successful.

[slackmaster]

33. Davis weakened himself by being a fuckup

Today's fishwrap says Davis is flip-flopping on the vehicle license fee increase. He flip-flopped on implementing Proposition 187. The guy is a wet noodle, a blatant panderer.

Right wing coup? Succeeded in impeaching an otherwise popular president...

BFD. They succeeded in impeaching Bill Clinton but not in removing him from office. The process worked.

...stole the Florida election and presidency; put recall of California governor with the "Terminator" as his chief opponent.
Looks like right wing coups are pretty successful.

If the California "goobernatorial" recall fails they'll be 1 for 3. Nothing to be proud of. Davis will be a better governor if he beats this.

I see near-perfect symmetry here: Next time California has a Republican governor (and I believe it will happen sooner or later), Democrats are welcome to initiate a recall. If money is an issue we need look no farther than Hollywood. I'm sure a Martin Sheen, Susan Sarandon, Barbara Streisand, etc. could be talked into Knight in Shining Armor duty and coughing up a million or two to get things rolling.

[edward]

36. If you think the impeachment of Clinton was a failure for Republicans

I don't know how to respond. Really.

[Diesle]

19. .

Certainly elections 'count'. Fortunately for the people, in certain cases provisions have been made to allow for the RECALL of elected officials that do not meet the expectations of a majority of constituents.


From what I can gather, this recal is an obvious embarassment for the Democratic party. The reaction has been to attack the 'process of recal'. That is counter productive and leads to nowhere.


Diesle

[Terwilliger]

32. it's absolutely true, though....this Recall is a stupid Republican trick

They lost an election, and then wanted a "do over" Republicans are fascistic little children.

[slackmaster]

34. Next time California has a Republican governor

Democrats will have a chance to respond in kind. And I think we should.

[Terwilliger]

40. you do?

why dont we just have a Recall every 13 weeks and take the guess-work out of it?

[slackmaster]

48. Abso-freakin'-lutely!

The process is self-limiting.

You'll be able to tell when the people have had enough when it becomes impossible to gather enough signatures on a petition. 12% of the number of people who voted in the last general election is a lot of people. When they're tired of revolving-door recalls, they'll start saying "No!" to petition gatherers.

[robbedvoter]

12. "But isn't this fun"? MSNBC whore asked Ventura "NO!"

the former wrestler answered, giving the whore a civics lesson.
Who said irony was dead?

[JanMichael]

14. My sense of Irony hurts.

Everyday there's something more ridiculous that the day before.

So now we have to go to a guy, that wore a pink boa, to tell us that the the situation that the guy, that used to oil himself up, isn't amusing...

[Eloriel]

20. At least one of them has it right about this issue

But your point is well-taken.

I'm aghast at the "support" of this absolute travesty of democracy in this thread.

I'd go to the bother of explaining just why it's a travest of democracy, a severe THREAT to democracy (in more ways than one) if I thought it was worth the effort where these posters are concerned. I strongly suspect it's not.

Eloriel

[Diesle]

23. "I'm aghast"

If the democratic Party and its members spent less time being "aghast" at every drop of a pin and started focusing their energy on alligning themselves with popular opinion, they would be taking a great step at taking America back.


Diesle

[slackmaster]

27. I don't understand why you are so afraid of this process

All it takes is 50% + 1 of the people who care enough to bother to show up at the polls, to keep Gray Davis in office.

What's the problem?

[robbedvoter]

41. 10% can beat 49% + media crowned Arnold ahead of time

How would you like such a process for your own life? (cuz you don't seem to care for ours)As for reasons for this "process"? here's apic:

[edward]

44. Yes, Arnold(the tall one) is about to blast Enron for the energy crisis.

Then attack Bush for his close association with "Kenny-boy."
Bad democrats, bad!

[slackmaster]

45. Nobody seems to understand me on this issue

I support the PROCESS. The process is there for a very good reason. That doesn't mean it will always be used for good purposes. You have to take the shitty with the good. I do not support the people perpetrating this particular recall, but I support the possibility of using the recall procedure in the future.

If you give a shit and support Gray Davis, get your butt to the polls on October 7 and say so.

What's wrong with that?

[dfong63]

59. one problem is that the "winner" could be even less popular than davis

Davis needs a MAJORITY to win, but his successor will only need a PLURALITY. put another way, Davis needs at least 50%, but his successor could win with less than 1%.

if the current polls are to be believed, Arnie "the groper" could win with a lower percentage of support than Davis.

that's not fair.

[depakid]

28. that's exactly what it is- entertainment

which is why no one should believe ANYTHING the corporate media says about it- especially their manufactured polls. This is just another ratings game for them... like sharks & Condit.

[angka]

29. signalling a breakdown in the system

we are in our post-classic period, historically speaking.

[edward]

30. Good article in Nation by Robert Sheer

<http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030818&s=scheer20030812>

[Terwilliger]

39. very good

[Minstrel Boy]

31. It's a coup inside a circus

And that's the subtitle of an excellent new article on the recall by Ernest Partridge and Bernard Weiner of The Crisis Papers.

"What is happening is a persistent attempt to overturn the outcomes of previous elections by using dirty tricks and changing the rules in midstream.

...

"These are the politics of fascism, and we are moving relentlessly in that dreadful direction. Unless, at last, true American patriots with sufficient voices draw the line and say: "This far, and no further." And then proceed to reclaim our Constitution, our rights, and our republic."

http://www.crisispapers.org/Editorials/recall.htm

[PATRICK]

38. Keep juxtaposing

the shame and the absurdity of a nation thinking they that having everything both ways is logical and a brithright. Pomposity of having herois "leaders" int eh greatest democracy on earth and the joke that is the recall. They want both, waxing enthusiastic and respectful before a movie star goon and then laughing off reality competency and serious matters concerning the SAME people who have created the worst of the problems, i.e. the GOP conservatives and Bush's close friends(Arnold in enthusiastic attendance).

It's all a rolling "Bowling for Columbine" documentary and the public goes from from aburd lie to the other to let their state be taken like a piece of cheap real estate????

[catzies]

35. PeteNYC, I always look forward to your insights in GD.

I like your take on things.

[Name removed]

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[radwriter0555]

37. Well YEAH, about 3 weeks ago I GOT BLASTED for posting a BLISTERING

LOOK OUT on the recall.

Once again, I told you so... No one listens...

[slackmaster]

42. Yes, that was during the Denial phase

I remember it well.

"They'll never get enough signatures."

"The signature gatherers are hired guns from out of state."

"Most of the signatures will be invalidated."

"There's no way the courts will allow the recall to proceed."

And on and on and on.

[radwriter0555]

65. REMEMBER: RADWRITER is ALWAYS right....

And I'm fair and balanced too!

[CWebster]

46. Tweety;s substitute

asked guest Jesse Ventura, who expressed opposition to the recall, "but don't you think it is fun?"

unbelievable.

[kentuck]

49. Exactly...

And somewhere someone plans on making a lot of money off it. It always traces to money or power..but they can be one and the same. How does the media plan on making money off this? Tens of millions in advertising? That is a lot of money.

[VOX]

50. Thanks, Pete, for weighing in on a VERY serious matter! I'm in CA,

And people here are sighing and laughing and shaking their heads, but the gravity of the matter hasn't fully kicked in yet.

The Republicans are exploiting the rather universal unpopularity of Davis. They are like pack animals -- the least scent of blood or sign of weakness, and they go in.

Just look at who's running Arnold's campaign -- Pete Wilson's people, and he was one of the worst governors this state has ever had.

The recall should have us enraged, and out in the streets screaming our heads off. It's that serious.

[slackmaster]

53. By all means be enraged and scream your head off

But please do not fail to go to your polling place and vote on October 7. I'll be waiting in line when the polls open.

[edward]

54. Makes you wonder if the state of California is governorable.

California hasn't had a good governor in a while, Pete Wilson was nobody's dream.
Should the state be divided in half? What's the problem?

[Clete]

51. Huh. We are not amused.

:mad:

[tom_paine]

52. Absolutely, Pete!

Which brings to mind a question:

Is it not possible that the Imperial Subjects of Amerika deserve to be ground under the Tyrannical Bootheel of a Moribund Odious Imperial Family?

I don't mean us personally...in that regard we Free Americans are being dragged down by the Imperial Subjects as if we had an anchor around our necks.

But collectively, are we not getting the governemnt we deserve? And soon the economy, too (this economy is too good even still for the Imperial Subjects of Amerika I think, and will soon be just right after another decade of Bushevik looting, fraud, and malfeasance).

Is it not possible that we deserve this?

[Sapphocrat]

70. Collectively, yes...

We are getting exactly what we deserve.

It's that little business about being dragged down by the Imperial Subjects that's got my knickers in a twist -- and makes me think it's too late to save our sorry collective self.

[Gloria]

55. Pukey CNN spin with Ron Brownstein just now

Wolfie talks about Bush visiting CA for two days and Brownstein talks about the "ambivalence" of the White House...they got burned last time, blah blah blah.

What a crock, when we KNOW that the WH is behind this whole thing......Ambivalence, no way!!!

And then Mr. Weintraub of the Sacramento Sun-Bee tells us that 90% of the Republicans want the recall, while only 50% of the Dems are against it! Talk about shooting yourself in the foot! You mean you WANT to give the state to the party that screwed you up royally????

What is going on???? As the talking heads said, the first question "Do you want a recall" is being OVERSHADOWED by the second question about who is running!
Personality over reality---the reality of what a GOP governor would do re controlling courts, elections, etc....
While having no better fix for the economy and the potential of sinking CA deeper into the hole than it already is....
My head hurts......

[slackmaster]

56. PeteNYC, humor me as devil's advocate for one moment

If you please...

If the shoe was on the other foot, i.e. if an unpopular Republican governor was facing a similar recall funded by a wealthy Democrat, what would your position be? Would you be ranting about the circus and the death of Democracy, cheerleading for it, or sitting back and watching in amusement?

I ask this as I whistle my way past the graveyard of California politics. This state is famous for political tsunamis. I've seen it shift from one extreme to the other several times. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, and all that.

[Name removed]

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[slackmaster]

58. Only the people decide what is a good reason in California

It's written into the state Constitution. Anyone petitioning to recall has to allege a reason to remove the person from office, but "Sufficiency of reason is not reviewable" by anyone but the majority of the people who care enough to show up and vote. If you oppose recalling an official you don't have to sign the petition. If the recall effort makes it to the ballot you can vote against it. It doesn't get more Democratic than that.

Let the American public giggle and smirk all they want. We do things our way in California. If you don't like it, you don't have to live here.

[Name removed]

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[edward]

62. When the Republican Party speaks, "we" listen.

By the way, goofball governor moonbeam is mayor of Oakland California.(that's Jerry Brown) The guy is so spaced out he doesn't know he is supposed to be a corporate lobbyist getting deals in Sacramento.

[slackmaster]

63. I mean every last one of us

The people own the process. We all live under the same Constitution. Every eligible voter who gives a shit can participate.

I do not agree with the people who initiated this recall but I support and defend their right to do so, in exchange for me and everyone else reserving the right to initiate our own recall some day should we ever feel it's appropriate.

[welshTerrier2]

64. only the dollars decide

in its purest form, it may be so that any citizen can create a petition to recall a duly elected governor ... and your point that people don't have to sign the petition is also true ...

but, your arguments miss the main point ... the petition was not created by just any citizen ... and it was certainly not created by Joe Average ... it was created with the backing of big money and is now being fueled by a national political machine ...

does it not seem obvious to you that big money has reared its ugly head once again ... does it not seem obvious to you that only those with very deep pockets need apply for the job ...

big money is destroying any semblance of democracy ... you are dead wrong when you state "We do things our way in California." ... the sad reality is that you do them just the way the rest of the nation does them ... there is no difference between buying an election in California and buying one anywhere else ... well, perhaps with the one exception that it costs a wee bit more in California ...

Pete's post is dead on ... the media thinks the "arnold and gary" show is "cute" ... "oh those kooky California celebs ... what will they think of to entertain us next ???"

it's not one damned bit entertaining ... the media once again miss the essence of what is happening ... and we are a poorer nation because of it ...

[Sapphocrat]

67. 'Only the people decide' - ???

1.6 million out of -- what are we now? 37 million? -- decided there would be a recall election, and that was thanks to that reptile Issa using a band of paid professionals to gather signatures for the recall petition.

I wonder how many "No's" they got for each signature they nailed?

I wonder how "the people" would have decided had state law required the signature whores to present each pigeon with both a "Yes on Recall" and a "No on Recall" petition?

Methinks we wouldn't be spending $60 million on this farce of an election now.

And as far as doing things "our way" -- and to hell with anybody who doesn't like it -- why do you think they are laughing at us now? Yep, those uppity Californians are sure getting theirs... Serves 'em right... Land of fruits 'n' nuts...

Maybe you don't care, but plenty of us in the Golden State do, very much. California is the U.S.A. of the U.S.A., in that so many of us are so bloody arrogant about living where we do, we're mystified by the question, "Why do they hate us?"

The knee-jerk answer: "They're jealous of us." And that's just bullshit. The reason they hate us -- and are enjoying such exquisite Schadenfreude right now -- is our "We're California! Like it or lump it!" attitude.

It's just so... American.

[slackmaster]

69. Just one simple question for you

Do you plan to vote on October 7?

[Sapphocrat]

71. One simple answer

Of course I'm voting.