Anti-Nader Hate Campaign Could Backfire

[Solidarity]

By Jared Laiti
California Green Party Coordinating Committee
President, Sonoma State University Campus Greens

June 2, 2004

The libelous anti-Nader material the Democrats are running in TV ads and on the Internet could well backfire. Normally, when you’re trying to win over a constituency you’re nice to them, but in the case of Nader voters, the Democrats have been conducting a four year hate campaign against Nader that has gained in intensity with the current race. The underlying message is: you’re so stupid you voted for Nader. Not a particularly nuanced approach to politics.

Unfortunately, however, the Democrats – especially liberals - have
increasingly stigmatized those with whom they disagree on some issue, thus reducing their constituency with little chance of winning it back. The voters being insulted by the hate Nader campaign join people like gun owners, fundamentalists, southerners, and abortion opponents as among those rejected by the Democrats even though they were once a key part of their constituency.

Meanwhile, just as was true in 2000, the Nader support is not behaving the way the liberal Democrats would have one believe. For example, Kerry just lost 11 points in Minnesota polling but the Nader vote didn’t change at all. Also, while Nader is showing strength in some expected states such as California, he is also doing better than expected in places like Indiana and South Dakota. Why? Because, despite the stereotype, the Nader support comes from a variety of sources: Greens, ex-Perot backers, the generally pissed off, and those just wouldn’t vote without Nader in the race.

The best plan for the Democrats would be to cancel their hate Nader
campaign and adopt some of his positions so his supporters might have a reason to back Kerry. As it is the Democrats are just acting mean and dumb.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. Is this the Nader Underground now? How many Nader threads do you plan

on starting? Has the result altered from thread to thread?

What's the point?

[arwalden]

29. Hmmm... All These Nader Threads... Maybe I Should Support Nader

[Beloved Citizen]

69. So Now Solidarity Is Taking Hostages

Nader sucks. And so do his supporters.

Get over yourself.

[goodhue]

2. It won't be popular here but this is exactly right. n/t

[Feanorcurufinwe]

3. Yawn

Ralph is boring.

[sangh0]

4. Sounds like the Naderites are getting scared

so they're claiming that attacking them will backfire. Gee, if it's going to help the Greens, shouldn't they keep quiet about it?

[Oddman]

5. Nader is a fringe loser candidate

period . . .

[billbuckhead]

6. Nadir is just as evil as Bush, fundies and the NRA

If we can't tell the truth about someone in politics then the system truly is broke.

[Solidarity]

9. I Agree!

Perhaps you could start by rejecting the slander campaign against Nader and you could start by spelling his name right. That's pretty childish and lame.

So let's have real debate and discussion about the Green Party and Ralph Nader and an end to the campaign of character assassination, lies and distortions.

Are such civil discussion and debates not wanted here? We should not try to imitate the methods of "freepers" when we debate and discuss among ourselves.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

13. Fine..you start..show me how ANY of Nader's actions including in 2000 have

helped any of the people he claims to stand for.

[sangh0]

41. Still no answer?

:Shrug:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

45. The silence is deafening

[sangh0]

49. And you've made it so convenient for them

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1707750#1707824

[sangh0]

14. The real debate is "Exactly how evil is Nadir?"

Discuss

[bluestateguy]

7. We tried that approach in 2000

The Naderities have a hard time realizing that the the Great American Majority--the people who elect presidents--just don't see the world the way they do.

Democratic nominees also had to play patty cake with Jesse Jackson in 1984 and 1988 and all it got them was a tepid endorsement, while tens of millions of angry white men voted for Reagan and Bush.

If Bush wins, I hope that kid gets drafted.

[Solidarity]

19. You Think The Democratic Party Should Have Denounced Jackson?!

So are you one of those who thought the Democratic Party should have rejected and denounced Jesse Jackson? Anybody But Reagan, even if it means attacking authentic Black leaders like Jackson. Do you also think the Democratic party should have attacked the organized labor movement? That sure would have attracted the votes of Reaganites!

I suppose you might be one of those who are supporting the current dirty little slander campaign against Dennis Kucinich and Ralph Nader.

[sangh0]

21. Straw man

In another post, you claim to want a reasoned debate on the issues, but as this post of your shows, you are just as likely to resort to inappropriate tactics when confronted as any Kerry supporter.

No one said the Dems should have denounced Jackson. You pulled that out of thin air. Then you follow it with a thinly veiled accusation that a poster supports slander.

[Solidarity]

Please Read Posts Before Commenting On Them

You didn't read "bluestateguys" post? Let me quote it for you:

"Democratic nominees also had to play patty cake with Jesse Jackson in 1984 and 1988 and all it got them was a tepid endorsement, while tens of millions of angry white men voted for Reagan and Bush."

[sangh0]

53. Please stop distorting posts

1) bsg never said or implied that Dems should have denounced Jackson

2) you accused bsg of supporting slander

Instead of taking responsibility for your actions, you dodge. Is that the sort of reasoned debate you want, because I can provide it?

[bluestateguy]

30. reply

Bill Clinton demonstrated in 1992 that ass-kissing to Jesse Jackson was not a winning strategy. He did not denounce him, nor did he pander to him either. Jackson supported him twice and spoke on his behalf at the Democratic National Convention both times.

I like Dennis Kucinich. He has run a nice little campaign, but cannot be elected president. He has said over and over again that once Kerry accepts the nomination in Boston he will support him. Nobody from the Kerry campaign, and no national Democratic leaders have attacked him. Given his working class roots, Kucinich understands what is at stake by letting Baby Bush have for more years.

Listen to Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, Michael Moore and Bonnie Raitt. All are former Nader supporters who realize that to vote for him in 2004 is nothing more than a vote for Bush.

[FlemingsGhost]

25. We did?

"The Naderities have a hard time realizing that the the Great American
Majority--the people who elect presidents--just don't see the world
the way they do."

Of course they don't? They're not allowed to hear the message. Was Ralph Nader allowed to debate along side Gore and Bush?

I'm no "Naderite" but that statement is a bit naive, blue.

[sangh0]

31. SO what?

The bottom line is that the majority doesn't see the world the way Nadirites do

[FlemingsGhost]

42. So ask you again, sangh0:

Just what is it about the Green Party platform that you, and the majority are opposed to?

[sangh0]

50. It's dishonesty and incompetency

but some people go for that stuff.

[FlemingsGhost]

54. Yeah... "the majority."(n/t)

Dems

[sangh0]

59. That's right. The majority disagrees with Nadir and his minions

Nadir and his minions just HATE the majority.

[lancdem]

8. Sorry, I'm not impressed

Maybe Nader supporters should realize why the Dems feel compelled to launch this campaign instead of acting all whiny about it. Poor widdle Ralphie.

[redqueen]

10. When your house is on fire, you don't worry about remodeling.

First, put out the fire, and then you can worry about remodeling.

Is that so hard to comprehend?

[FlemingsGhost]

17. Sometimes explosives are needed to squelch a fire.

Suck the oxygen (life) from the inferno.

Being oilmen, the "House of Bush" understand the concept well...

[sangh0]

23. Decorators use bombs?

Who knew?

:shrug:

[FlemingsGhost]

32. No, fire fighters do...

Remember, we are not "decorating" yet.

It appears we have a difference of opinion has to what is burning.

[sangh0]

37. So why call the decorator?

.

[FlemingsGhost]

46. Exactly.

It's gonna take a contractor.

(on edit: no... an architect)

[sangh0]

56. Contractors use bombs?

Who knew?

:shrug:

[FlemingsGhost]

60. Some do indeed use explosives.

Now you know.

[sangh0]

63. To put out fires? Contractors? Bombs?

Or maybe we're just having a little problem keeping our metaphors from getting mixed up?

[FlemingsGhost]

67. Who said anything about "bombs?"

Controlled explosives are used all the time in building and construction. As well as demolition.

The folks who are hired to do such work are called "contractors."

[sangh0]

71. Funny how you have time to answer that post

but no time for this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1707750

[FlemingsGhost]

74. It might be because I am voting for Kerry.

I don't consider myself a "Dem basher. Besides, Ralph Nader and his giant ego is a giant bore. Discussing what he has or hasn't done is not my idea of a ripping time.

Huh!... bet you didn't see that coming.

[sangh0]

80. Not surprising at all

I don't expect logic from every poster.

[FlemingsGhost]

82. Can't expect what you don't know

Can you?

[FlemingsGhost]

81. Can I play your game now, sangh0? ...

What no "clever" attack to someone who is voting for Kerry, but agrees with much of the Green Party platform? C'mon tell me how deluded I am for being a "Naderite." How I'm a Bush supporter undermining the Democrats. How I'm your enemy.

See post #12. You my friend, are the epitome of who--and of what--the author writes.

[sangh0]

83. You like games, don't you

but if you want to play with the big boys, you're going to have to answer the hard ones.

How can you support a party that abandons it's principles in order to win by running Nadir?

[FlemingsGhost]

84. I'm not. That's why I am voting for Kerry in November.

"Check"...

[FlemingsGhost]

85. "Big boys" don't run home with their ball...

Your move.

[redqueen]

26. Sure, once your house is lost, I suppose that's an option

Not one I'd use if there were any chance of salvaging the structure though. I think we can still salvage the structure... too bad Naderites are running around planting metaphorical bombs.
:(

[FlemingsGhost]

36. Fair enough.

We differ as to just what we see is burning, that's all.

(edited for clarity)

[sangh0]

39. You're pretty bad with analogys

redqueen said "When your house is on fire, you don't call a decorator", which you argued with, even though you agree with her.

[redqueen]

43. Shoot, I never said 'decorator' at all

You don't need a decorator to remodel, do you?

[sangh0]

57. Hey, if I'm going to redocorate

I'm definitely gonna need somme professional help. DUer's have already suggested that.

[FlemingsGhost]

44. I guess so. (n/t)

Dems

[redqueen]

48. The house (this country) is on fire (being destroyed)

Nader wants to complain about how the kitchen needs a new disposal, and how the eldest daughter is taking up too much time in the bathroom, so we should build another, so that others can have access.

Isn't that kind of silly, to complain about situations that, while they do need to be addressed, will be meaningless if we allow the entire house to become engulfed completely in flames and utterly destroyed?

Admittedly, Nader has said it is his wish to destroy it, so that we can build a nicer house. I disagree. I don't wish to be homeless and think we can still put out the fire and then address his concerns.

There is disagreement as to how much damage has been done by this fire as of yet. So far I think you're the only one (besides Nader), who has said that it's so far gone that we should just destroy it and start all over again.

[FlemingsGhost]

58. Our house (the world) is on fire (being destroyed)

We are all to blame.

[redqueen]

64. Would you like to comment on the substance of my post?

We're all well aware of the state of things.

The difference of opinion is on what to do about it.

Nader - let it burn to the ground

Democrats - choose the lesser evil and improve it

Take your pick!

[YIMA]

11. Nader Hater

I hate Nader with a passion for running and making it harder on Kerry but I do like a lot of his ideas and how he stands up against the corporate media. We need more Nader people to join the Kerry campaign, but I don't know that they will. If Kerry had just come out of the primaries talking about the corporate controlled media, MIHOP/LIHOP and how that bastard * planned and executed 9/11 in order to place us all into a police state, and how we need to immediately pull all out troops out of Afghanistan and Iraq, then we could have secured some of the voters who have drifted into the Nader camp and would have carried more of the momentum that we had during the primary elections into the present. I guess we'll never know what could have been now.

[FlemingsGhost]

12. I suspect most of the responses to this thread...

will perfectly illustrate the "nuanced approach to politics" to which the article eludes.

Thanks for posting, Solidarity

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

18. And I pose the same question to you..show me how Nader has helped a single

issue he claims to champion since 2000...the environment? It's worse. Corporate control? It's worse. Conditions for the working poor? They're worse. Living wages? They've gone DOWN not up. Consumer protections? Sorry, honey, wrong again!

[tandot]

15. What is the point?

<snip>
The best plan for the Democrats would be to cancel their hate Nader
campaign and adopt some of his positions so his supporters might have a reason to back Kerry. As it is the Democrats are just acting mean and dumb.
<snip>

Bush supporters could also say:

"The best plan for the Democrats would be to cancel their hate BUSH campaign and adopt some of his positions so his supporters might have a reason to back Kerry..."

You wont change YOUR mind about Nader and I wont change MINE. What is the point? If you are so dead-set on having Bush four more years, go ahead.

[redqueen]

20. Beautiful!

:loveya:

[gristy]

16. I was completely unaware of a "hate" campaign against Nader

until I read this. This looks like slanderous BS from the RW to me.

[tandot]

27. I agree...

I guess it is hateful and slanderous to say:

"Nader, please don't run...the world can't take 4 more years of Bush"

[Solidarity]

34. It's Not Only Hate, It's Outright Sabotage and Disruption

It's not just hate. It's also attempts to prevent people from voting for Nader by disrupting efforts to place his name on the ballot. This smacks of Republican election campaign disruption programs conducted during the Nixon administration that were denounced by civil libertarians.

Check out the following threads if you haven't read them:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1700491

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1701669

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1705488

[gristy]

47. Why the f--- should I care?

Please tell me. The RW would like nothing better than the left to rise in indignation over any "perceived" efforts of the democrats being "unfair" against Nader. Personally, I don't give a rats ass either way.

[FleshCartoon]

22. I have a question? (Raising hand)

Isn't this a democratic site? I'm not being facetious, I really want to know.

I'm not interested in joining another political forum that gives equal time to Nader, and I thought it would be safe here at DU.

Forgive me if I offend anyone--if anyone supports Nader, that's their business even if I think they're helping Bush out, but I really just don't want to argue about Kerry vs Nader anymore.

[redqueen]

55. After the Dem convention, maybe things will change

Not really sure about the rules, but IIRC, after the convention, it's pro Kerry or BYE BYE!

[FleshCartoon]

62. Thanks. (n/t)

[bluestateguy]

68. Skinner will probably tighten the rules after the convention

By late July people with sore feelings from the primaries will have had enough time to get over their disappointment.

[rucky]

24. Nader's not running on the Green ticket, so why are the Greens...

seeing this as a personal attack?


they're not claiming nader either this time.

[redqueen]

28. Lunacy

Just a guess.

:shrug:

[sangh0]

33. Stupidity?

That would be my guess

[wyldwolf]

35. a site owned by CommonDreams.org disagrees

http://www.dontvoteralph.net/start.htm

[sangh0]

40. CommonDreams is obviously PNAC/DLC

:evilgrin:

[hippiegranny]

38. hey tell nader for me

that he can kiss my shiny white ass. that goes for all of his whiny "why won't you be nice to Nader the bu$h enabler?" supporters too. this pro nader crap is getting old. why am i even giving this stupid thread front page time by posting on it? i don't know, i shouldn't but i am.

randi rhodes said it best when nader was on her show "WE CANNOT AFFORD YOU THIS TIME." and he hung up on her - wuss.

[NoPasaran]

51. New day

Some old Fifth Column bullshit.

[sendero]

52. Dream on....

... Nader acted mean and dumb and now he is a pariah forever. Yes, he is un-rehabilitatable. In leadership style, I see no difference between him and Bush*. Just another arrogant liar on an ego trip. And I doubt very much if I'm alone in saying I'd never vote for him, and if Kerry wants to go negative on him so be it. He's been going negative on Democrats for over a decade. Payback really is a bitch.

[pinto]

61. I'm a Democrat and I don't hate Nader. Think he's a vanity candidate, now,

but I don't hate the guy. Also, I think the Green's are fools to ride his coat tails. Greens have had a viable political voice before Nader and will continue to have one post Nader.

[Solidarity]

66. An Intelligent Pro-Kerry Post

Here's an example of an intelligent post written by a Kerry supporter. They didn't find it necessary to engage in personal attacks or slanders to make their point.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1703644

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

72. How come you haven't responded to my question above?

Name a single result Nader had produced since the early 80's...can you? Name a single cause that he stands for that he has actually helped. Can you?

[pinto]

76. yeah, that's a good post.

I probably should have said the Greens for Nader faction may find their decision to back Nader a poor long term choice in the effort to build a bigger voice for a viable third party.

[LoZoccolo]

88. I said this on another thread.

You and Nader should know better by now, that's why people are so inclined to attack.

Especially if you read that other thread.

[welshTerrier2]

65. rampant democratic hatred

i totally endorse the idea that the anti-Nader hate campaign is going to hurt the democrats ...

whatever happened to offering a big tent ??

the point is not to justify Nader or those who won't vote for Kerry ... the point is to do everything we can to win as many votes for Kerry as we can ...

the anti-Green, anti-Nader hatred is making this election must closer than it should be ...

[redqueen]

70. Pardon me, but - bullshit.

Big tent is for those who vote Democratic. It's a big tent, for Democrats. Once you pledge allegiance to some other party (which, duh, hurts Democrats, then it's GTFO).

Now about the BS part - it is NOT the anti-Green, anti-Nader hatred that is making this election closer than it should be, it's NADER and those who buy his crap.

on edit- re: hatred... it's not hatred, it's frustration that has now developed into near hysterics. The GOP has used Nader once successfully. Remember that saying about 'fool me once'? Well, Nader lovers, you were fooled once.

So, who's lining up for more of the same?

[welshTerrier2]

73. same back at you, Redqueen

it looks like we stood together for Kucinich ...

it looks like we stand together for Kerry ...

but it looks like you've given up on those who are not with us ... not much point doing any more campaigning between now and november, i guess ... everyone's already locked in ...

the hell with the Greens ... no point continuing to make your case for your candidate ... no point in even trying ...

let's just call all the non-Kerry supporters names ... that'll teach 'em ... maybe if we really alienate them, they'll realize how wrong they are and change their minds ...

well, you go give up on these potential votes ... i'll keep trying, thanks ...

[redqueen]

75. I'm not giving up anything

This is "DEMOCRATIC" underground, and you're no newbie. And this isn't a new situation, either.

And as has been pointed out, the Green party isn't even supporting Nader this go-round, so :wtf:?

The people who got fooled once and are prepared to do so again are not being alienated by Democrats, they are being alienated by the manipulator telling them to waste their presidential votes.

There is no way for me to get Greens (who are supposedly not even supporting Nader, but... whatever) to support Kerry except by hammering the point home that a vote for Nader helps bush. Kerry is not going to tailor his message for them, because we all know where he's coming from and that's that you must cater to swing voters to win elections. So... if that's what some are waiting for then they're really just a lost cause.

If neither the burning house analogy nor the fact that Nader duped them once is enough to get these people off the idiot train, they're hopeless.

[sangh0]

79. and back at you welshterrier2

but there is an invitation into that tent at

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1707750

but unfortunately, no Nadir supporter seems able to answer the most simplest of questions.

[Taverner]

77. Chances are any Nader supporters

are Republicans, trying the reverse strategy.

They're the ones so hard trying to get him on the ballots.

[mot78]

78. They arn't attacking Naderities themselves

They are attacking St. Nadir and St. Nadir only. I agree with the writer that we need to preempt Nadir on major issues, but we shouldn't be afraid to attack him through every legal mean possible.

[Solidarity]

86. Nader On C-Span Today (Thursday) At 1:00 PM EST

On Thursday, June 3 Ralph Nader will speak before the National Press Club on "Breaking the two-party system." The speech, part of the News Maker Series, of the Press Club will be covered by CSPAN at 1:00 EST.

CSPAN plans to play the speech live unless activity in the House and Senate prevents it. A wide range of media will be covering the event and Ralph Nader will be conducting individual interviews with many news outlets as well.

[John_H]

87. BWAAAHHHAAA!!!!! Jared is such a whiney moran....

What a typical naderite. Kerry and the Dems are playing patty cake with ol' wal-mart stock ralph, and the naderites already want a binkey. Sorry naderites, Fidelity Ralph is indistinguishable from Chimp, and not just because they both like to bust unions. He wants kerry to lose as much as Rove, and hopefully Kerry will start treating him like an opponent.

[JSJ]

89. especially!

'especially liberals'

Big hell yeah!

[tinanator]

90. either with us or against us

why does that sound familiar?

[Hamlette]

91. it worked so well in 2000?

Nader is a power hungry sick man who has undone all the good he ever did.