Girls Pushing for Modest Fashion Options

[elfwitch]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=519&e=2&u=/ap/20040602/ap_on_re_us/modest_clothing

REDMOND, Wash. - During a recent shopping trip to Nordstrom, 11-year-old Ella Gunderson became frustrated with all the low-cut hip-huggers and skintight tops. So she wrote to the Seattle-based chain's executives to complain. The industry has been getting the message: A more modest look is in, fashion experts say.

The shy, bespectacled redhead has since become an instant media darling, appearing on national television over the past two weeks to promote modest fashions instead of the saucy looks popularized by the likes of Britney Spears.

"We like to call this new girl Miss Modesty," said Gigi Solif Schanen, fashion editor at Seventeen magazine. "It's such a different feeling but still very pretty and feminine and sexy. It's just a little more covered up."

Shoppers are starting to see higher waistlines and lower hemlines, and tweeds, fitted blazers and layers are expected to be big this fall, Schanen said.

I'm all for de-slutting the youth. I think they've gotten a little out of hand. But check out these links that were at the bottom of the article:
Wholesome Wear: http://www.wholesomewear.com
ModestApparelUSA: http://www.modestapparelusa.com
Modest By Design: http://www.modestbydesign.com
These take things from one extreme to another. Bathing costumes? Full length skirts with long sleeve shirts? What's next? Fines for baring an ankle? The Puritanism in the US has really gotten out of control.

[jpgray]

1. Well, you have to cover it up for us to get excited about it later

I'm not sure why it works that way, but it does. I mean objectively, who the hell cares about a nipple? But there it is.

edit:

DISCLAIMER: I am not interested in any fundie crusade to make women cover up--they should make their own fashion decisions. However, I personally don't find extremely skimpy clothes very attractive.

[elfwitch]

2. sure but

This is not the solution:


My great grandmother wore "swimsuits" like this in the 1920's.

[jpgray]

3. Yes, that just looks goofy (nt)

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

11. Whoever wrote the article is a little confused, I think

It sounds like the article is about girls who want more of a choice than just mini skirts and little tube tops, but that wholesomewear page has got to be for certain, specific religious sects. Who else would dress like that at the beach?

[Quahog]

45. I agree, CJ

I'm a little miffed that I can't buy pants for my 8-year-old daughter that don't show her butt crack when she sits down, but there's no way I'm putting her in the Amish wear. Some middle ground might be nice.

Whatever happened to those Dittos that girls wore when I was in high school? Those were high waisted pants, but they were very sexy.

[theboss]

97. Do you notice that the girl is not calling for Amish wear?

She is asking for clothes that cover her ass.

The original poster linked the two.

[cheezus]

99. so the sexy of your generation is ok, but the current sexy isn't?

What if your mother had me you dress they way she did?

[redqueen]

103. 8 year old

They are talking about an 8 year old.

Do you think there should be sexy clothes for 8 year olds?

[SoCalDem]

54. They look like nurse's aide uniforms..

and BTW..there are PLENTY of places that still carry "less-than-slutty" clothes..

If Mom's quit envisioning THEIR little girl as the next Brittney, and encourage more realistic dress codes for school, this trend might slow down or disappear..

This is NOT a new phenomenon.. Years ago, I went with my friend who was shopping for her 3rd grade girl (I had 3 boys, so I rarely ventured into "girl-land")

I saw a "tiger print bikini & bra" set in a size 6X.. It flabberghasted me..

It's got to start with the Moms and the schools.. The kids will always want to wear "what the cool kids wear"..

[smirkymonkey]

55. Be a Christian Missionary, or just look like one!

Sassy fashions for today's pious miss!

[VolcanoJen]

90. lmao, smirky!!

It's the American Taliban-look!!

[hippiegranny]

59. who knew amish wear would ever be "in"?

how utterly asinine. i agree that the baby slut look is over the top, but target's children's clothing lines are perfectly tasteful. trust the radical puritans of this country to take everything to such an extreme.

[Delano]

121. I'm in total agreement with you on both points.

a. Clothes for little girls shouldn't be so slutty.

b. the clothes in that picture are hideous and a total overreaction. The girls look like teens - I think 14 or 15 is a good age to start dressing a bit more adult (within reason of course)

Funny how this country never can do anything in moderation. Little girls get to choose nun or whore with no in-between. ;)

[yankeeinlouisiana]

131. Yuck!

Those look like bad school uniforms. Those are bathing suits?

Hemlines going down? Oh, oh...stock market will follow that trend.

[mzmolly]

42. I agree with you that modesty can be a good thing ...

I also agree that the clothes in question are indeed UGLY!



It's like they raided garage sales of the Midwestern elderly ... EEK!

[troublemaker]

4. Wow, it took four posts for the first

"Get a Burkha, morans"

[jpgray]

8. No fundie sensibilities here

I just don't find extremely revealing outfits very attractive. Women can wear whatever they want, but I hope I am free to have my subjective opinions on the subject. :hi:

[JHB]

5. One order of "Free Bible Study" with every purchase...

Ok, not "with every purchase", but you can tell where Modest Apparel USA is coming from:

If you are interested in a FREE BIBLE STUDY to print out for yourself or a group feel free to download and make as many copies as you would like of our bible study on "Ladies conduct and modesty".

I pretty much agree with elfwitch. Brittany's entitled to her "look", but that doesn't mean the whole industry should follow.

[shanti]

6. check out the links on these sites

fundys!! these are clothes for "christians" :eyes:

[seabeyond]

7. the whole virgin mother mary vs prostitute thing

yup..........

cant be an inbetween

[cheezus]

9. Um. She's ELEVEN. Give her 3 years

then she'll be dressing like a las vegas whore

btw - it's not like there aren't normal clothes for kids her age. I have a sister in law that age and she dresses the same way kids did when I was her age.

[cmf]

10. The last link isn't that bad

Looks like normal, if ugly, clothes to me. The first two are ridiculous.

Edited to add a comment.

[amandabeech]

53. Yes, it looks a little like not-so-great-quality Lands End.

Although I'm older, I need a junior cut in jeans. Needless to say, I haven't bought any recently. The junior departments in my area all stock extremely low riding jeans that will expose parts of my anatomy that are not pretty even if I wore a leotard as a top! I don't mind a somewhat lowered waist, but geesh!!

[Armstead]

12. People ought to have choices. It's simple.

Clothes should allow people to be who they are most comfortable with.

Those who want to be Brittany sluts ought to have that right. Those who want to dress more modestly should also have clothes for their tastes available.

Why does it have to be either/or and "one size fits all"?

[Redhead488]

13. The sluttier, the better

I always say!

[Cleita]

14. How about a big old sheet with holes cut out for eyes?

Oh, I think the Taliban already approved of that fashion. I think those new fashions are not very attractive on the new generation of McDonald's raised fat kids, but there are other choices in the stores for those who disapprove.

This kid was put up to that by the adults who are around her. Eleven year olds really don't have any fashion sense that they developed themselves until they are a little older. This is another way of exercising control over females by the far right.

[THUNDER HANDS]

15. hey, here's a hint, DON'T SHOP AT NORDSTROM

Go to Old Navy or something for an 11-year old. Jeez....

spoiled brat

[Redhead488]

18. Why is she a spoiled brat

just cuz she doesn't want to look like a SIT?

[THUNDER HANDS]

24. no

because her mom took her to one store, an really really pricey, upscale store, and she couldn't find anything.

So she whined and cried and called the corporate headquarters.

Just go to another store!

I'm not getting on her for wanting to not look like a ho - just for thinking that retailers have to cater to her whim and that it's a crime if she doesn't find clothing she approves of.

[seabeyond]

26. magic rat do you know what you are talking about

i took niece shopping for jeans this spring. old navy, nada but the lowest on hip. went to target, that was it. i checked out jeans in walmart, there was only one brand not hip

i think the girl has a good point, and excellent for her speaking out

[THUNDER HANDS]

30. what, did they stop selling regular women's jeans?

at every store in the nation?

Granted, I don't shop for girls jeans, but I find it hard to believe that nobody carries them anymore.

[seabeyond]

31. like i said, one afternoon i hit three stores

and no there was not choice. now i dont spend arm and leg for clothes, i go to the cheap places. but yes old navy, target and walmart, one brand

[theboss]

34. Go look

I'm sure if you looked, you could normal pants somewhere. But if bloody Nordstroms doesn't have them, who does?

[progressivebydesign]

65. You need to find a normal 12 year old girl to shop with..

.. then you'll see the fashion disasters in the junior departments across the country. See.. the girls that age have to wear junior sizes, usually, because they are cut slimmer in the hips, etc.. to suit the body shape that's average for that size. There are "regular" women's jeans.. yes.. but they're cut for a woman's body.. and would fall off most jr. high aged girls.

The retailers have not addressed the fact that just because a girl can wear jr. sizes, she does not want to look like Brittney Spears, nor will her school allow her to.

After shopping with my 12 year old, I can tell you, it's hard to find modest clothings suitable for her... regardless of the store. You seem to have this image that Nordstrom's is so much more expensive than other retailers.. when Old Navy, the Gap, Abercrombie (the worst offender when it comes to teen sleaze), etc. are equivalent pricewise... even Meryvn's, if you don't find anything on sale.

[marzipanni]

127. LOL I remember Abercrombie & Fitch when they sold travel clothes

rain coats, walking sticks, hammocks, really practical, if boring, stuff.
Recently I guess they recognized they had gone a bit too far and stopped the distribution of a really poor taste catalog (can't remember the content). Who changed A&F? New owners, the next generation of owners, or just the dumbing down ("sex is the only interesting subject", but also titilatingly taboo), of America?
The almighty $ rules. If it sells, it must be GOOD!

[theboss]

32. I think it has something to do with sizes

Like I said, my cousin is skinny as can be, and it seems to be that in the small sizes, the only things available are the hip-huggers and low-riders. It's almost like they are forcing them to flaunt it.


I had this same problem a few years ago with baggy pants on guys. I'm short. Baggy pants on me are just a disaster. For about five years, there were only two stores I could find anything in.

[graham67]

35. The retail stores...

simply follow the fashion demand.

[RememberTheCoup]

41. Well, it's kind of circular...

...If stores offer only hip huggers to pre-teen girls, that's what will be purchased. And then most kids want to wear what the other kids are wearing. Manufacturers focus on hip huggers; stores carry them to the exclusion of most other styles; shoppers purchase them; and then demand increases because that's what's "in style" so manufacturers make more. Of course, that's a gross simplification, but the basic idea is correct, I think. And I can personally attest (as have many others on this thread) that it is difficult to find options and variety -- in children's clothing or even in adults' -- when you shop at mainstream stores. I don't wear hip huggers because I just don't like them on me. And I've had a hard time finding fashionable jeans that aren't low-riding. Trust me on this.

[graham67]

50. Maybe it has something to do with the area?

I'm constantly buying clothes (I have 4 kids and I shop for a teenage niece) and I never have any problem finding relatively modest fashionable clothing for the girls. Me personally, I wear modest lowrise Levi's and Hilfiger jeans and simple t-shirts. I'm too old and out of shape to have my ass hanging out a pair of pants ;)

[kiahzero]

33. You must have been going to crappy stores

When my girlfriend and I went to Old Navy a few weeks ago, there were plenty of normal jeans that weren't low riders.

[seabeyond]

37. i assumed there would be choice in a jean store

and since i was looking for jeans, that is why i went to old navy. and there wasnt any. maybe now, but not in spring.

no reason to lie to you. said to the clerks, would think there would be more choices as i walked out the store.

had some cute cheap tops i like though, wink

[progressivebydesign]

63. Old Navy.. great clothes...

but you're right.. most of the pants are low. They occasionally have regular waist pants and jeans, and even a way to find them on their website.. but they're mostly low or super low.

The little girl in question needs to do what my 12 year old and I do, look in places like JC Penny, Mervyn's etc.. not necessarily in the junior area, for pants. The rest of the stuff she can get from the junior section.. but the pants are the worst there.

[AgadorSparticus]

117. the gap has a good variety of sizes, lengths, style, etc. nt

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

78. Hey I just bought my nine year old daughter a lot of clothes at Old Navy

and not a single pair of capris or shorts were low cut or low riders. Not a single one. They're just normal length shorts and capris. And cute t-shirts. Nothing slutty at ALL.

[AngryAmish]

113. Another attempt to silence a woman

[formernaderite]

115. Regardless of where she shops, don't you think customers have a right...

to ask a store they are supporting financially to offer merchandise they'd like to purchase? Geez...at my local auto parts store, they're more than happy to fulfill my requests.

[graham67]

29. I love Old Navy but....

they make hiphugger-type pants for toddler girls. Imagine trying to keep them up over a diaper. :D

[theboss]

16. Good for this kid

The original poster is pushing an agenda that has nothing to do with the article.

My cousin is a really beautiful 17-year-old who wears probably a size 1. And she is having the same problem this 11-year-old faced. She simply doesn't want to ear hip-huggers, belly shirts, etc.

She's not religious; it's just not her style. But it amazingly difficult to find a normal pair of pants these days.

[Cleita]

20. Oh for pete's sake, even I can find a style of pants that suits me.

Just because one store doesn't carry the styles you like, doesn't mean others don't.

[RememberTheCoup]

28. kids' clothes are more homogenized

Have you shopped for kids' clothes in any mall recently? Sure, anybody can find anything -- if time, money, and convenience is no object. There's nothing wrong with asking clothing manufacturers to provide more options at mainstream clothing stores. Haven't many large-sized shoppers been compaining for years about the lack of clothing options that are available to them? I don't see this as any different. Not every 11-year-old wants to dress in the Britney Spears cookie cutter style that the fashion industry pushes. It's not even just about clothes. Products made for kids are homogenized (and very gender-separated) across the board in most mainstream stores.

[progressivebydesign]

56. As the parent of a normal 12 year old girl.. she and I agree with the girl

Have you shopped with a 12 year old, junior/adult sized girl lately? It's mostly impossible to find any jeans that are not cut too low for school, or shirts that aren't too small, too short, or too tight, regardless of the size.

An area that drives parents nuts, and the students who don't want to advertise for sex when they're 12, is that ALL of the back-to-school fashion ads and commercials show clothes that NO school would allow you to wear! Give me a break, they're marketing G-STRINGS for girls in Jr. High!(G-Strings that are designed to show above your pants line). I'm not sure of any of the values or concern for children on DU, but even my 12 year old knows that advertising for sex through sleazy clothes is gross. Because.. truly.. that's what those styles are all about. Making pre-teen girls sex objects like Brittney, et al.

Blows me away that people here actually are arguing about this girl's complaint. She should be lauded for having the guts to speak up about having to scour the city trying to find something that doesn't make her look like a teen prostitute.

[Cleita]

123. Well, I just came back from Sear's this afternoon.

I had to take my DH for new glasses. While he was being examined I sauntered to the girl's clothing section to verify what you both claim. I found the usual low slung tight Brittany Spears outfits, you mentioned, but I also found nice clothes, shorts and pants that buttoned at the waist, not below, and nice modest T-shirts and other tops as well. I think you guys aren't shopping in the right stores.

[elfwitch]

21. I am pushing no agenda...

I just posted the article and the extra links.

My concern is that there seems to be a trend on Fashion Policing. Like the Parish in Louisiana that is going to fine people if their underwear sticks out above their pants.

In Bushland it is not too hard to imagine a Taliban style dress code dictated by his "good Christian" friends. Small steps lead to big changes. First it's a $500 fine for your panties showing, next it's jail time for showing your ankles.

[theboss]

22. What does that have to do with this kid though?

They are two different issues.

Community dress codes are one thing; this is a kid saying that she would like a pair of pants that cover her ass.

Are you suggesting that she should dress like a slut just because you are afraid of Christians?

[elfwitch]

49. it is a sign of some sort of trend

I could give a shit and a half if she wants to wear a potato sack and cardboard boxes for shoes.

I have noticed a trend in people getting TOO conservative in the mode of dress department. I just worry that, like with other things, the neo-cons are going to take this as a sign that they can start legislating stuff like this too.

[progressivebydesign]

57. "Too conservative"?????

Have you been near any teenagers lately? Why should little girls be forced to dress like prostitutes because it's what the fashion industry is dictating to them? WHy, if we're all so liberal here, are we so unconcerned with turning 11 year olds into sex objects. Is feminism a dirty word even here???

[RememberTheCoup]

64. WWLSD?

What Would Lisa Simpson Do? :)

You are right on, Caliphoto! This is about providing more choices, not taking choices away. A lot of people have higher aspirations for their daughters than to just become the sex objects the fashion industry wants them to be. I think a lot of people who are insisting that there are plenty of choices available and that we're just over-reacting haven't really tried shopping for young girls' clothes lately. I'm only half-kidding about "WWLSD?" As one of the few positively portrayed fictional girl characters on TV, I can easily imagine her joining in to compain about the lack of options for girls who want to dress in a non-Barbie style.

[elfwitch]

68. Here I am with my point and you are WAYYYYYYYY over there...

As I stated in the very beginning of this post, I think the sluttiness factor has gotten out of control. I think that underwear should be kept inside your pants. I don't want to see anyone's navel.

But did you see the stuff on those links? It's like removing a pimple with a flame-thrower. OVERKILL!!!

I worry that in response to the Brittany/Christina style that the pendulum will swing as far in the other direction. That is the way things often go in the US.

Let's see - the 70's (sex, drugs, rock-n-roll) backlash in the 80's (Reagan, just say no, PMRC)

It happens all the time. The big problem here is that under Bushler, when things go to the right they go really far to the right. I'd love to see a lot less of bare bellys and ass cracks, but this is not the solution:

[redqueen]

77. Do you seriously think this will catch on?

Seriously?

I agree that this is ridiculous, but honestly... the media is what has decided that the reaction to kids wanting non-whorish clothing should be burkas, not children and not Americans in general.

Certainly NOT Americans in general. Not in a million years.

[hippiegranny]

80. fwiw, elfwitch, i agree with what you're saying

and i think that people are doing what they always do, and that is personalize the issue rather than try to understand the point you're making.

[theboss]

85. Are you really concerned that Pennsylvania Dutch is the next trend?

My dad is an elementary principal and has to worry about six-graders engaging in oral sex in bathrooms. He would be so lucky as to have them start dressing like this.

You are making a strawman out of a small, small movement.

[Quahog]

104. These "modest" fashions have been around forever

The styles harken back to the nineteenth century. They've never changed. My best friend in high school was a Jehovah's Witness, and she wore ugly stuff like this (too bad too, cuz she was a redheaded babe). Just because these awful things are now being marketed on the internet, and some hack "journalist" who had to include SOME kind of URL in the stupid article linked to them, does not mean that there is a trend in the making or a neo-con plot afoot. Normal people aren't going to buy this ugly crap. The girl in the original article isn't going to buy this crap. I think parents and lots of girls just want to see some middle ground between the pre-teen crack whore look and the Amish grandmother look.

I am not that old (44), but I remember when I was a young man living in LA, I could walk down Sunset and KNOW which women were prostitutes and which weren't. It's not at all easy anymore. That's fine for a woman who has reached the age of consent, if she wants to look like she's selling it even if she isn't, more power to her. But when the sex-for-sale look is being forced on pre-pubescent girls by the fashion industry, I believe that is just wrong.

[redqueen]

67. Where is that trend?

Please tell me, so I can move there.

Kindergardeners are now wearing makeup and low pump heels.

:wtf:

[dolo amber]

Mary Kate and Ashley

have a line of "little girl lingerie" in Wal-Mart stores...bikini panties and bra-type things...for like, 5 and 6 yr olds...:eyes:



This isn't the greatest image, as you have no perspective on the sizes; but trust me, walk into any Wal-Mart kids section and you can see it for yourself. I was school shopping with a friend last year, and her 5 yr old got sooooo excited about having her 'very first bra'...:puke:

[redqueen]

105. Ugh. thanks.

Sick sick sick sick sick sick sick sick society we're livin in.

:(

[Kipepeo]

130. It has to do with the ARTICLE, not the kid

The ARTICLE lists links with amish looking puritanical styles. If there is any agenda being pushed, it's by the person who decided to list those links in an article about a girl wanting more modest fashions. I think the original poster makes a valid point that the fashions shown in at least 2 of those links seem to be going overboard to the other direction as if the only choices for young girls should be virgin/whore.

[jpgray]

23. The 'slippery slope' is a fallacy

But yes, the Louisiana thing is ridiculous. So long as all this does is provide a choice, I don't see a problem. Once they start restricting what people can wear, let me know. I would imagine no 11 year-old would wear the 'swimsuits' you posted above, but based on the article, I didn't get the sense of encroaching burkadom.

[Cleita]

44. You are right. The problem is not the clothes but the people who

wish to control the lives of girls and women. One must note that in repressive societies women must adhere to a dress code, something men usually don't have to do in extremes women do. Among the Mennonites, who like to dress their women in baggy dresses and little bonnets, not something readily found in ready-to-wear, they make their own clothes. Maybe mommy should invest in a sewing machine for the little girl and let her whip up her own styles. I started sewing when I was eleven and made my own clothes through school, college and up until I went to work. I often sewed for my classmates too when they couldn't find exactly the dress or outfit they wanted.

[RememberTheCoup]

51. What makes you think this girl can or wants to sew?

Maybe this girl would rather spend her free time playing sports, or using her computer, or playing music. Not all women and girls know how to sew. A lot of us would just like to be able to walk into a mainstream store and find some options and variety in the clothes that are available to use without going through a lot of hassle.

There are many ways to "control the lives of girls and women." What if those "baggy dresses and little bonnets" were almost all mainstream stores carried? Why is it so much better when almost all they carry is the cookie cutter Britney Spears look? I don't see any evidence in the article that this girl wants to limit choices for others. She herself is the one talking about having choices and saying that people should be able to dress in different styles.

[Cleita]

125. You have to start someplace and I started at eleven with no help from

anyone, just an unused treadle Singer that had belonged to my grandmother. However, you are right, sewing isn't for everyone. I just happened to have a group of friends who liked doing it. We could create our own fashions and one of my high school friends went on to become a designer for a well known line of expensive clothes. One of my sewing cousins works as a costumer for the movie industry.

My point was that if you don't like what the stores have, learn to make your own. Furthermore I just returned from shopping this afternoon and found Sears carries nice clothes that this girl might like to wear. Nothing sexy or extreme there although they also had those "slutty" clothes on the rack.

My point is if you can't get the clothes you want, you can make them or you can look around for them. No one is forcing anyone to dress in clothes they consider cheap.

[progressivebydesign]

58. Uh huh. And the media and the fashion industry ISN'T dictating to them?

I'd rather a parent have the influence on a kid, then some out of touch so-called hipsters in New York's fashion industry with no real-life experiences telling them how they should look.

[Cleita]

126. No argument from me there, but I don't think this is about

fashion as much as it is about controlling women. The best way to end a fashion trend is to not buy it. Remember the sack dress in the fifties? There was even a great Lucy episode about it. It disappeared in months because the majority of women refused to be "sacked".

Also, a dirty little secret of clothing designers is that they watch what the kids are wearing, because it's the kid's that are setting the trends and the designers are there copying and giving them what they want.

[jmowreader]

137. What, are they banning contractors?

Underwear sticking out of your pants is the contractors' uniform.

I didn't want to enter into this fray, but I will. Check out this photo...



The woman portraying the mother in this photo is not small, but this dress makes her look immense. There is no way she's that big.

[graham67]

27. I don't think so...

Good old reliable Levi Strauss still makes regular jeans for kids and adults. They also make the lowrise hiphugger hoochiemama pants if you want them.

[RememberTheCoup]

17. Sounds like the girl has more sense than the adults here.

The girl (Ella)'s comment: "There can be more than one look...Everybody should have lots of choices."


Contrast with some comments from the adults:

The industry has been getting the message: A more modest look is in, fashion experts say.

"We like to call this new girl Miss Modesty," said Gigi Solif Schanen, fashion editor at Seventeen magazine. "It's such a different feeling but still very pretty and feminine and sexy. It's just a little more covered up....It's kind of like a sexy take on a librarian," she said.

The Web sites ModestApparelUSA.com and ModestByDesign.com — where the slogan is "Clothing your father would be proud of"...


Note that the girl is emphasizing personal choice while the "fashion experts" are treating this as some kind of fad. Why does an 11-year-old girl have to be "sexy"? It is getting harder and harder to find age-appropriate clothes anymore. And this isn't necessarily all about modesty for religious reasons. As a feminist, I don't like seeing girls turned into sex objects at such a young age. Children should be able to go to school in normal clothes and focus on their education, not have to walk around feeling uncomfortable because the fashion industry is pushing the Britney Spears look on little kids.

[theboss]

19. The Fashion Industry is sick

I saw that quote and thought the same thing:

"Why in the name of God does an eleven-year-old girl have to be sexy?"

What's next "Carters for Clubbing?"

[progressivebydesign]

60. Remember Abercrombie's thong underwear for 5 year olds?

That was a fashion industry low... they even were decorated with cherries. No lie.

My 12 year old is around 5 feet tall, and pretty slim. She is grossed out by the older men that check her out... she doesn't dress sexily, in fact she and we make sure that her clothes are age appropriate. She knows enough to acticulate that she doesn't want to advertise for sex by the clothes she chooses. She's like, "why would I want that kind of attention??". Some parents seem to get off on having their daughters look like they're sexually attractive in junior high.. I guess it's part of their own unrequited life and body issues.

I'm grateful that the schools here are strict about clothing choices. If the parents or the girls don't have enough self esteem to help the girls focus on more than what they can offer sexually, then at least the school can.

[theboss]

86. I never saw that but my cousin sounds like your daughter

Like I said, she's a beautiful and popular 17-year-old. She's on the dance team. She has a football-playing boyfriend. She loves Nick and Jessica. She's as mainstream as you can get.

But she's remarkably conservative in her personal life. But it's rather refreshing to tease a teenager if she has kissed her boyfriend yet when most of them seem to have gone shopping at a sex shop by then.

Unless I am reading things wrong, some on this board feel it is her duty to show some skin in order to keep Jerry Falwell at bay. Or something. I'm not really following the argument.

[redqueen]

102. Oh yes, I remember that

Supposedly they were for 10 and up, but reportedly the sizes would fit girls much younger than that.

Notice the 'eye candy' slogan on panties for pre-teens. Nice.

[eurolefty]

69. I agree. n/t

[Quahog]

76. Yeah, this is screwed up

My daughter is a very tall eight year old. The pants we can find for her that fit her length-wise are almost exclusively of the hip-hugger variety. She is 8. She doesn't have hips. She's pretty much a straight line from her armpit to her ankle, and these pants don't stay up... hence the exposed butt crack. Now, I don't particularly care who thinks exposed butt cracks are sexy and who doesn't. But I do care whether or not my daughter is caught up in a fashion world that is trying to tell her how to be "sexy." In the broader sense, no INDUSTRY should be determining what sexiness is. In the specific case of my daughter, SHE IS EIGHT YEARS OLD. I don't think that I'm at all trying to supress her sexuality by saying that she's too young to be concerned with issues of sexual attraction.

There is such a thing as growing up too fast, and I think the fashion industry is guilty as charged by the girl in the original thread. For cryin' out loud, the 9-year-old who lives across the street called my daughter a "slut" the other day, putting me in the interesting position of explaining the word "slut" to a child of eight (which I admit I didn't do, I punted to Mrs. Quahog, who artfully defused the topic). I don't think the slut comment had ANYTHING to do with pants, since all the little girls in our neighborhood wear the same stuff. But it all ties back to the same thing, that our society supports industries which convince our daughters that they should be adorning themselves to capture a mate from about age six. Which seems mental to me, but I'm sure somebody's making money off of it somewhere, so never mind what it does to our children's ability to understand real issues about sex and sexuality.

Notice that these same industries don't target pre-adolescent boys in the same way. The girls are set up to be the object won or stolen or purchased by the males... the males aren't set up for being anything but sports stars (but that's another rant!!!).

[theboss]

87. Well said.

I absolutely hate the fact that I sound like I am stealing ideas from the Bill O'Reillys of the world, but there is a trend in the popular culture (fashion, music, movies) to sexualize girls at increasingly younger ages.

[Zolok]

25. A girl could drown wearing one of those bathing suits

weighed down by all that wet cloth....

Yeah I agree it's religiously based modestwear....aimed at parents with a need to police their daughter's sexuality.





www.chimesatmidnight.blogspot.com

[mondo joe]

40. Drowned - but with her modesty intact.

That's what counts.

[Pattib]

36. Check out the bra at modestapparel.com...

What is up with that bra? Looks like a bullet-proof vest. Why must the bras and panties be granny style?

[mondo joe]

38. Better than Slutty or Taliban: Fun, functional, independent

I'd no sooner want my daughters dressed in these "hide your body" extremes than the "show your body" clothes.

There's so much available for girls - especially with the fashionable athletic wear - that is fun, functional and comfortable.

The MODESTY vs SEXY options both suck.

[rumguy]

39. It's about damn time

I agree with her. There should be modest, yet appealing clothing options.

I see no reason why a thirteen year old girl has to dress like a goddamn prostitute.

Why do girls even want to dress like that?

[prodigal_green]

43. Orthodox and Hasidim Jews

in New york need to be covered up. Good for them that there is an option so they can get exercise and have fun.

I think the point is women's bodies should not be objectified or policed. Asking for more modest clothing than what is available out there does not mean anybody is requiring girls to dress in a burkha. Either way, these are strategies for objectifying women at younger and younger ages. Sexualizing a ten year old (for an adult male's sexuality), is pretty screwed up.

I am really glad that my grandmother taught me to sew and my mother taught me to knit. I design and make my own clothes (and shoes too!) and really don't care what 7th Avenue decides we should be wearing from season to season. My 11 year old niece has asked her mom to teach her sewing and knitting. She's pretty much a tomboy and is probably pretty sick of halters and daisy dukes too.

[LittleApple81]

46. Look, I agree I don't like 9-year-olds looking like prostitutes. But

the first site in your post with the swim-somethings (I cannot describe them) is way, way, past overreactionary. I don't think anybody with an ounce of common sense would want to get in the water with something like that on. It is like the women in Saudi Arabia (and I am assuming other fanatic-islamic-government countries) whose women have to get in the water with the whole burka thingy. I wonder how many have drowned...

[Alenne]

47. My 11 year old does not have this problem.

She hates hip-huggers and anything that shows her midriff or that's really tight. We have no problem finding clothes for her.

There are plenty of places that sell regular jeans and shirts.

[BigMcLargehuge]

48. there's modest... then there is just creepy

the links at the end of the article aren't modest.

[graham67]

52. Question for those....

who remember fashions of the 70's. I was pretty young but I remember my mother wearing skirts so short that she couldn't bend and lowrise bell bottom pants. I know she bought me fashionable shorty-short dresses when I was under 10. Did people freak out then? Aren't today's fashions just a rehash of the 70's? I'm hoping we never go back to the fashions of the 80's *shudder*

[Love Bug]

61. I was in high school in the early 70s

I've always had "thunder thighs" and never felt comfortable in really short skirts. I was unable to find any that weren't too short so I ended up making my own.

[stanwyck]

62. I wore clothes sluttier than Britney

in the '70's. Very low-rise jeans. Our skirts were so short, the world was our ob-gyn. Tube tops and halter tops everywhere. Even the teachers wore tiny mini-skirts. Look at some old yearbooks. And my parents were teachers. Parents have very convenient memories.
And trust me on this, the 11 year old is merely parroting her parent's views. This is ot her crusade; she's just the instrument. Fundies use their kids as their mouthpieces. Children are property. Not individuals. The child is a tool. She's being used.

[Cleita]

133. I agree with you there. The kid is just a mouthpiece.

I remember wearing hip huggers back in the seventies with my belly button out in full view, tank tops with no bra and yes those short skirts. But, I did live in a beach town and everyone dressed that way. So I don't think you can accuse every woman in town of being a slut.

[Iris]

141. Well, now even teachers wear thongs hanging out of their pants

So I guess nothing's changed.

[stanwyck]

66. Don't miss an opportunity to remind females

that their bodies are sinful. Yes, our bodies are evil and should be hidden. I am a total failure as a mother. I taught my daughter that her body is beautiful and should be respected by her and by others. Please send me a Taliban catalog so I can get her covered up.

[jpgray]

70. Pressure to go burka OR two-dollar whore is pretty deplorable

Giving girls a choice of what to wear from a spectrum that INCLUDES these two extremes but does NOT limit them to one or the other is fine with me.

[seabeyond]

1 son cant be seen in underwear, 1 son runs around naked

who are you to decide someones modesty is representative of taliban. talk extremism here.

i respect both boys perspective. never would i denigrate my sons modesty, a simple respect to him, and never would i make less my sons desire to feel the freedom of nakedness running thru the house.

[graham67]

114. All my kids...

are nudists. Totally unselfconscious about the naked body. I love it.

[Cleita]

134. Yes, but have you noticed boys hardly get a raised eyebrow

when they dress like gang bangers and rappers, yet if girls want to wear less rather than more they are immediately called sluts.

[RememberTheCoup]

81. Don't miss an opportunity to remind females

that they are nothing more than sex objects. For being so pro-female, you sure seem to have a low opinion of girls. I don't know anything about this girl other than what is in the article, but her one quoted comment seemed perfectly reasonable: "There can be more than one look," the Redmond youngster said in an interview while wearing a loose Pure Fashion T-shirt, jeans and hot pink flip-flops. "Everybody should have lots of choices." Why do you assume that an 11-year-old girl can't have her own opinion about what she wants to wear?

[stanwyck]

128. see my response

you fell for a fundie trap. The alternatives exist. This is media hype for the war against women. We're bad. We're responsible for the fall of man. We're sinful and fleshy. This is culture war against women. There are plenty of alternatives. Get outta the house. Go to the mall. Don't be duped by fundie press.

[stanwyck]

124. Stanwyck responds

C'mon. Do you people really believe there are no existing alternatives already packed in the stores? Get real. Go to a store. This is typical fundamenalist over-statement and culture war tactics. This is a non-issue. It's media hype and the child is being used. The alternative clothing is already in the stores. Visit a mall. Go through the racks. This is fundie media hype which is, typically, anti female. Be afraid of females. Very afraid. We're sexual Jezebels with, yikes, breasts! And so you need special catalogs with special clothes so our sinful bodies are adequately covered or else horrible things will happen. How incredibly sad that you're so easily taken in by this rightwing decency brigade. We'll give you switches so you can go around beating the women who are offending your eyes with their blatant sexuality. Hussies.

[progressivebydesign]

71. Those links are funny!

But I do think the first two are geared toward religious groups.. the ones that aren't allowed to wear pants, etc. for women. The last one had some cute stuff!

[DrWeird]

72. For crying out loud, people, it's just navels.

Here's an interesting fact: everybody has one. I really don't get this whole, expose your navel you're a slut thing. It's like elbows and knees back in the twenties.

[jpgray]

74. It's not about the navels, it's about the pressure

What I have a problem with is someone feeling pressured to go somewhere they don't want to wardrobe-wise, either burka or streetwalker.

[theboss]

91. Look....If girls want to show their navels, good for them

No one here is saying that girls should be forbidden from doing that. The question is whether the fashion industry is FORCING them to do it.

[dsc]

73. Good for the girl

I am sick of seeing girls at the high school dressed out of some sort of pedeophile's fantasy book. It is hard to find name brand clothes that aren't way to reveling.

[redqueen]

75. While I woulnd't buy anything from those links

The kid has a point. While I can still find options for my young daughters, my Kindgergarden age child still pushes the pants down below their waist so she can look like other kids at school, and now her younger sister is doing it.

We're sexualizing children. It's wrong.

Yes, bodies are natural and beautiful and all that good stuff.

But if you sexualize children, and stand up for slutty clothes for young girls, then don't f$&#ing come crying to me about men who molest young girls. No, it's not an excuse for pedophilia, but don't pretend to be so ignorant as to believe that we can put young girls half naked and whored up on magazine covers, and then act shocked when men find them sexy and view them as objects of sexual desire.

[dsc]

83. Very true

I just said in the post above yours that our local high schools are something out of a pedeophile's fantasy book. We let things get way out of hand in this regard and shouldn't be surprised when people behave accordingly.

[redqueen]

95. I'm still wondering where the trend toward modesty is

To me, a few people do not make a trend. This is a bit early to be trying to form a bandwagon, but it suprises me not that the media is trying to start one. More whores! Ugh.

As in your area, there is no shortage of IMmodestly dressed pre-teens here. Others have said there are lots of choices... so maybe it's a regional phenomenon. I don't know, but I sure do applaud those young girls who have the confidence to go against the herd. :)

[cally]

79. Spent last evening shopping with my teen

We both hate shopping but she has not bought a pair of shorts in three years. I felt guilty because she's spending a few weeks with a friend's family and she had to borrow summer clothes from the friend the last few years. So I looked at every pair of shorts, skirts, and summer tops in a huge mall. Seventy five percent of them she found 'too slutty.' The skirts and shorts barely cover your ass. She eventually found some clothes but it was very difficult. She's 17 but if I would have been looking for a pre-teen I don't think we would have found shorts. My 13 year old cannot find shorts that are acceptable at her school which has a dress code. For the last few years, she buys shorts but does not wear them to school. The dress code only says that shorts and skirts have to not show your underwear. :shrug:

[dsc]

82. try a uniform store

most of them now carry school uniforoms as well as work uniforms.

[cally]

84. I'm deleting this

On reflection, I think I misinterpreted your post. I apologize.

[dsc]

88. edited mine to explain what I meant

Just to note that around here uniform shorts are often just regular khaki walking type shorts which is what I was thinking of.

[cally]

89. I edited my response

right before your post. I apologize.

[dsc]

92. no problem I just editted mine as well

[seabeyond]

94. bah ha ha ha

but here in lies the issue. having to go to a uniform store to find appropriate shorts for your girls to wear, lol

[dsc]

96. yea that does suck

but I was trying to give a short term solution to this person's immediate problem. You are quite right that the clothes should be more diverse. My sister, who is in her 20's, has a similar problem. Aside from dress up business clothes, most of what she has to choose from is really revealing. She has to look long and hard for decent clothing. Oh and she is a size 3.

[seabeyond]

100. lol i have one frayed pair of jeans left

looked a couple times this spring for another pair of jeans and didnt see any of my style. guess i can go to eddie bower or order from the net.............my father suggested i go to the mans department and am actually thinking about it. either hip, or also not real jean material, that yukky elastic stuff in the jean.

personally i get husband old decade ago 501 jeans he has outgrown, and i have grown into, lol and make my own cut off shorts.

[redqueen]

118. Go to men's! Do it!

The clothes are CHEAPER, too! :D

[marzipanni]

122. My current favorite 2 pairs of jeans are from Goodwill

One Eddie Bauer, one St.John's Bay (Penney's?) They have a huge selection, some almost brand new, all styles, many fashion eras (recent and even 'retro') and prewashed so you know how they'll fit from the start. A great deal at $3.99 to $4.99!
My favorite 2 pairs of shorts are also from Goodwill.

[Delano]

93. I hate the whorish clothes for little girls.

It's wrong to sexualize prebuescent kids that way. As a society it is hypocritical to let little kids dress like Slutney Spears and then express dismay at child molestation.

I hate to EVER be on the same side of an issue as fundies, but I guess I have to be on this one. Let little kids be little kids.

Anyway, even on adults hiphuggers aren't so hot. I miss skirts, legs, etc.

[Delano]

98. I wonder how people would react if little boys were being done this way...

Sure, 8 year-old boys in thongs at the beach, hip-huggers at school and short, tight shirts like you see in gay parades.

I think the little girls should also wear CFM 3-inch stiletto heels and fire-engine lipstick.

The Wonderbra for Tots® would go wonders to give you kindergartener a grown-up looking bust!

Nostril piercing for kids! A little jewel in the navel!

Who needs see-saws and baseballs. Get these kids to the kiddie disco and fill them up with Ecstasy Jr.®


-sarcasm off-

[dsc]

108. actually Calvin Klein found that out

He did an ad with all kids of teens and pre teens in revealing clothes. Some of the later ones had boys as well as girls and all Hell broke loose.

[theboss]

110. I remember that

Those ads were creepy, but I think they were starring older models who were trying to look young. Which is pretty weird in its own right.

But anytime there is a backlash against male clothing, it's usually just good old-fashioned homophobia.

[RememberTheCoup]

101. Well...

I don't see child molestation as really being the issue. There always have been and there always will be pedophiles in the world. To me this is about letting girls be who they want to be instead of what the fashion industry would like them to be.

I don't think of myself as being on the same side as fundamentalists. I see myself on the same side as feminists. I want girls to have more choices available to them. I want them to be able to dress as though they have aspirations other than just being sex objects.

It's not too different from the problems with kids' toys. You walk down a Toys R Us and there are clearly aisles of "boy toys" and aisles of "girl toys" although they no longer call them that. But when you see an ocean of gaudy pink and purple and blonde and then an ocean of camouflage and trucks, it's not too hard to figure out.

[Delano]

106. I don't care whether girls dress feminine or boyish

(although boys don't really have that choice - unless they want to make a really BIG choice, do they?)

I just don't like seeing them dressed in a provocative way.

I doubt there is a causal relationship, but dressing kids like whores is a contradictory message.

As far as dressing like they want, it is a ludicrous idea that 8 year old girls are expressing themselves. At that age, well into the teens, kids do nothing but mimic each other. None of them are ever remotely original, including the ones who dress "weird" - they conform to their clique too. An outfit is not a work of art, and little kids do NOT have adult rights, thank goodness!

[redqueen]

107. To me it does include not so much the molestation issue

as the sexualization issue. To me, there should NOT be sexy clothes for 5 year olds. Or 10 year olds. Period.

I notice you mentioned toys. What do you think of Bratz?

[seabeyond]

112. disagree with you here also

i went down stairs to look at a tshirt i took from my niece a couple years ago. she was 9. didnt think it was appropriate for her. it is a rag now, lol.

i love boys
i love boys
i love boys
i love boys
and boys love me

just didnt work for me at 9. now whether she was comfortable in it or her mom got it for her cause she is projecting i dont care, she wasnt going to wear at my place. it isnt the child right to decide how they get to dress and before i took her shopping i told her, and my older niece, it is my money, it has to have my ok.

children arent raising themselves, it is the parents job

what i get paid for

[RememberTheCoup]

116. No, I agree with you.

When I said...

"To me this is about letting girls be who they want to be instead of what the fashion industry would like them to be."

and

"I want girls to have more choices available to them. I want them to be able to dress as though they have aspirations other than just being sex objects."

...I was thinking of the 11-year-old in the article who didn't want to wear the sexy clothes the fashion industry was pushing and who wanted stores to start providing more options. I didn't mean that children should be able to wear whatever they want without the approval of parents.

Even young girls (and boys) have certain clothing preferences. Some girls like dresses; some girls hate them. Kids have favorite colors they like to wear, etc. Some kids reject what the fashion industry wants to push as they get older but have a hard time finding alternatives.

Most kids get to have at least a little say in what they wear, but of course parents should feel free to veto choices they feel are inappropriate.

[theboss]

109. Molestation is a red herring

Most child molesters aren't turned on by children who look like grown-ups; they are turned on by children.

The issue is what we are doing to the kids themselves. I can't imagine what is going on in the mind of a 8,9, or 10-year-old who is trying to look sexy.

[amjsjc]

111. Oh God! They're trying to make my kids go Amish!

Those clothes are 12 years of schoolyard taunts and a couple of hundred thousand dollars in therapy bills just waiting to happen!

[graham67]

119. Cripes, hasn't anyone been to the GAP?

Their clothes are fairly tame, especially for little girls size 14 and under.

[redqueen]

120. I don't, on principle n/t

[Taverner]

136. GAP has recently stopped using sweatshop labor

and has gone to fair trade agreements.

Folks, I'm surprised we don't celebrate victories like this...it was after all our letter writing and pressure that changed this policy.

[redqueen]

140. Ah you're right

They still have some work to do, but they acknowledge that.

Looks like this is a pretty recent development, though, Taverner. Can't really fault people for not knowing about it yet, can ya? Not like we don't have more pressing business to attend to.

[stanwyck]

129. exactly. this is a trap for the dim

witted. Really. The clothes exist. This is media frenzy time for the fundies and some of our libs fell into the trap. The alternatives already exist. This is part of the media culture war. Too bad people couldn't see through this thinly disguised attack from the right.

[redqueen]

132. Are you in favor of sexy clothes for pre-teens in general?

As I've posted above, the peer pressure to show the midriff is affecting even kindergarten age girls whose parents *don't* buy those things. Care to comment?

[stanwyck]

139. You've missed the point

perhaps intentionally. The alternatives to the sexy styles exist. No catalogs are needed. The clothes are there. Waiting. This is hype from the right. I'm for parents and their children deciding what is appropriate within their own family structure. This is totally absurd that no clothing is available. This is a manufactured story to highlight the fundie agenda. My daughter dressed in what I would consider the mid-range while in high school. Nothing low-cut, either neckline or jeans. But not matronly dowdy, either. The parents are disavowing their responsibility. It's the stores' fault. Bunk. The clothes are there. Talk to your kids about what is appropriate according to your values. Special catalogs with special prices and special news stories promoting these clothes is nothing but marketing. This girl couldn't find modest clothes at Nordstrom? Go yourself and check it out. This is crazy talk. Anything do divert the masses from the rising oil prices, the deaths in Iraq, and the Bush administration lies. Yes, it's the clothing for girls. That's the problem.

[redqueen]

142. Oh I see your point

I guess I'm OT but this really bothers me that even kindergarteners are wearing makeup, pumps, low rise pants, etc. I completely agree with you that many, many parents are disavowing responsibility, in many areas.

Not inentionally missing the point, but I guess I latched onto a side problem that's due to another set of circumstances altogether, and forgot entirely that there is probably little merit to the claims made by the girl in the article. Where I shop there are clothes that are appropriate for my very young girls, so I really don't know anything about pre-teen fashions as I don't shop for them. *sigh*

[stanwyck]

145. I understand your concern

about kindergarteners being Jon Benet'd. That's truly sickening. They're not driving themselves to the mall to buy the suggestive clothing. They're not paying for the explicit clothing. Pushing children into adult situations should concern us all. How can they possibly understand the effect of their appearance? It's not within their grasp. They just know they get positive reinforcement, from some adults, for their appearance.
Perhaps I'm not empathetic enough to the problems of older girls who are uncomfortable with body revealing clothing. Many girls are naturally quite modest and shy. I was one of those obnoxious girls who waltzed around naked in the locker room snapping towels. My daughter (and son) are practically nudists. So I'm not attuned to those who aren't quite as uninhibited. But I adamantly refuse to believe the clothes don't already exist. This story is pure fabrication to promote an agenda.
Best wishes to you and your daughters. I'm sure they're lucky to have you as a mother.

[Taverner]

135. This is simply EVIL

Those swimsuits?

Does the GOP really want us to travel back to the 1920's? I know they want to bring back the depression, but dayummmmm!

[Servo300]

138. Good idea

I'm sick of the Brittany Spears look....

[DemBones DemBones]

143. Women and girls

need more choices in clothing. In other words, the kid is right! Designers and manufacturers should provide fashionable clothes that are modest as well as fashionable clothes for the more daring (or younger and more shapely) who want to bare more.

"Modest," IMO, means that pants are at the normal waistline rather than hiphuggers, that skirts are not so short that you can neither bend over nor sit down without giving the world a view of your undies, and that tops don't bare your midriff or your upper arms (the last is important for older women, very, very few of whom can wear sleeveless garments attractively.) Sheer clothes and revealing decolletage are not modest, either. No cleavage, front or back!

Modest means you could wear it to work, to visit your grandmother or your mother-in-law, and you would probably not wear it to go out clubbing. Too many clothes on the market are clothes to go clubbing in, as if most of the female population spent its time dancing the nights away. Crazy!

[PROGRESSIVE1]

144. Oh, I though it said "Girls Pushing for MIDEAST Fashion Options".