Women's wages trail men's by 26%

[ringmastery]

I don't think these wage comparisons are necessarily fair. As the article says, a lot of women leave the work force to become mothers and can't devote the 50, 60, 70 hour weeks necessary to advance to the highest levels in many careers.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/orl-asecwagegap03060304jun03,1,550821.story?coll=orl-home-headlines

Women still lag behind men in their paychecks -- earning 74 cents for every $1 men make -- regardless of occupation, education and work experience.

Doctors had the highest incomes for both sexes, but male physicians and surgeons had a median income of $140,000 a year, while female surgeons earned $88,000, according to a gender wage-gap report released Wednesday by the U.S. Census Bureau.

Female dentists had the third-highest annual median income among women -- $68,000 -- which would have ranked them 19th among male occupations.

Engineering managers ranked second among women, while they were ninth among men.

Previous studies have shown a gradual narrowing of the gender wage gap that was 59 cents in 1963, the year Congress passed the Equal Pay Act. The latest report, based on 2000 census figures, is the first to detail the wage discrepancy between men and women for more than 500 jobs.

Much of the wage gap within occupations can be explained by women leaving the work force to raise a family, putting in fewer hours, having less experience or working in lower-paying positions, the report said. More female doctors, for example, work as general practitioners than surgeons.

The wage discrepancy for male and female doctors, for example, may be because there are fewer high-paid female surgeons and neurologists, but more general practitioners who tend to earn less.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. Yeah right,..they've been offering up that excuse for years

I'm female and have no kids..and put the time in..one of my ex's is a 40 year old female attorney and she never had any kids until last year..and she was still fucked by it..my other ex is a 43 YO OBGYN (surgeon) and she too is OFFERED less than her male counterparts consistently...fortunately..I negotiate her contracts..so she doesn't work for that little..but it's plain old sexism..nothing else.

[cap]

2. bring back the ERA...

same story...

[FizzFuzz]

4. thanks for sharing that, nsma.

Its good to see some facts. I always wonder about the ubiquitous "well its their fault for leaving to have babies" argument. On the other hand, my Dr left years ago to have babies, another Dr I really liked did the same thing; I have no doubt that baby making really does hold women back. But is that the only reason? NO!

Seems there are more young women pushing into high paying fields now, so that's encouraging.

When I was a kid, the total emphasis was on finding a boyfriend. Of course, that was part of being raised by a pathological mother. But still, more girls entering college now, getting advanced degrees, going into high tech and engineering and all...its good.

[Yupster]

6. How is an OBYGN "offered" pay?

The OBGYN's I work with own their own businesses. They are not "offered" pay. They charge what they charge.

I would guess that doctors who work for themselves probably make more than those who work for hospitals, groups, or other doctors.

Not everyone wants to take the risk of going into business for himself or herself though. It takes a special type of man or woman.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

7. Most lately go into group practice rather than private practice

and get salaries from hospitals where they are affiliated. YOur assessment isn't accurate as fee for service medicine is declining.

[Yupster]

11. I can only speak of the ones I work with

They each have their own office and no one tells them what they can charge. I realize fewer and fewer people are willing to jump off the bridge and start their own business though.

In a business like doctoring though. If you're complaining about the low wage someone else is paying you, then hang out your own shingle and get paid what you're worth.

[Nikia]

13. If they live in my area they'd have a tought time

My home area in Ohio did have many independent doctors as most companies in the area offered general insurance that allowed patients to go to whatever doctors that they wanted to get the same coverage. In my areas, HMOs rule. Almost all doctors are affiliated with an HMO because most companies offer insurance that do not cover doctors not affiliated by the HMO. If I want to go to a specialist and have it be covered, I have to be referred by my primary care physician to an HMO affiliated specialist who almost all are hired by the HMO.

[pmbryant]

3. The comparisons are quite fair if done properly

and if done properly (i.e., factoring out differences in experience etc), they still show that women's wages lag behind men's by roughly 20%.

Not quite 26 cents on the dollar, but a huge amount nonetheless.

--Peter

[Yupster]

5. It's clearly some of each

There are good reasons for the pay gap and there is discrimination.

The argument is how much is attributed to each.

My own family is an argument for good reasons.

When my wife and I first met, we were both public school teachers. We are both the same age. The school district had a public salary schedule so theoretically, we should have made the same amount of money.

But we never did. I always made more. Why?

* I graduated college in 3.5 years and went right to work. She took 7 years and worked part-time jobs on and off. Therefore, I was always threee years ahead of her on the salary schedule.
* I always worked summer school. She never did.
* I always coached. She never did.

I was unhappy with teaching, so quit and became a stockbroker. I got up to making $ 120,000 a year for three straight years by working insane hours and doing well.

She was unhappy with teaching, so she went to part-time once my business started to excel.

When we had our kid, she quit work outside the home. The kid is seven now, and she has not gone back to working and has no intention to.

In the meantime, I am working even more insane hours because the kid's in private school, and my wife has no intention of getting a paycheck again.

I have no doubt that the average commission salesman (like me) probably makes more than the average saleswoman. Right here locally, there are woman brokers who don't work nights bevause they want to get home in time for dinner. I don't blame them a bit. It's a choice. Some brokers are content to make $ 60,000 a year and work 40 hours a week. Others want to make $ 120,000 a year. Not all women choose to make 60. Not all men choose to make 120. But when you're talking averages, it only takes a few people to raise or lower the group's score.

To the group of women with master's degrees being surveyed for pay, my wife is really messing up your average.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

8. Your assessment is largely the justification for the built in bias and

discrimination. It doesn't make it right when all things are equal but for the pay.

[Yupster]

10. You lost me completely?

I'm just giving my family as an example and others I know.

There's no doubt that more women than men stay home, work part time, decline promotions, stay away from jobs that require lots of travel away from home.

I'm not saying all do or even most, but if we're talking average, then small groups will effect the average.

Why does the average 40 year old male high school history teacher make more than the average 40 year old female high school history teacher?

It's not because of discrimination because they're both paid off the same salary scale.

It's because the woman was more likely to take a year or two off to have kids, is less likely to pull extra after hours duty, etc. That's just the way it is.

Every one of us knows a woman who made career sacrifices for her family. That will effect the averages.

[Nikia]

9. A couple of non obvious reasons

Women are judged both as a potential employee and a woman. As a woman, she is usually judged to be less competent (unless it is something like a preschool teacher or other traditional womean's position), less agressive, less analytical, more sociable, and a number of other things just because she is a woman. In positions that require a great deal of competence, agressiveness, and analytical thinking, she has to emphasize and demonstrate these traits more than a man would to get hired and get a good salary. On the otherhand, she could be judged too aggressive since women aren't suppose to be agressive and considered too much of a "bitch". If she comes off as too competent especially for a low to mid level position, she might be seen as overly educated or too much of a know it all. If she is not as sociable as a woman should be, she is seen as anti social. If she appears to be overly talkitive and makes small talk, they are afraid that she'll be the company gossip. This thinking allows men to have an easier time getting hired and commanding higher salaries because they have a wider range of acceptable behaviors in many poisitions. There is also the issue of networking. There are fewer women already in high level positions. Women also seem to be more competitive with each other rather than cooperative when it comes to career. There may also be sexist notions in hiring married men vs married women. The company may feel that a man has to support his family while a woman can depend more on her husband.
At the blue collar level, positions that require more phyiscal usually pay more than jobs that don't require as much physical strength. In some of these positions women are discouraged from applying and often have to prove that they are capable of that level of lifting where as they may hire men assuming that they are that strong because they are men. On a related note, jobs that require a certain amount of time at a position requiring heavy lifting before moving into a skilled, higher paying position which doesn't require heavy lifting.

[Xithras]

12. A LOT of women aren't very aggressive about this

The last private company I worked for didn't have a set salary schedule...it was a technology company at the height of the .com boom, so everything was negotiated. At one point, one of the ladies in payroll did a few calculations and realized that the average male programmer in the company made $85,000 a year, while the average female programmer made $70,000. "Why" was the interesting part.

After they informed me that I was hired, they offered me $72,000 and miserable benefits. I turned them down (at the time, the average rate for a C++ programmer in the SV was about $75k) flat. By the time we were done negotiating, I was at $80,000, with 3 days of weekly work-at-home rights, fully paid benefits, 401k, and even use of the companies ski chalet in Tahoe.

That's how things were done, and how things still are done in many companies. Wages for higher paid, salaried positions are generally negotiated, and you have to be aggressive about getting every drop out of them that you can. When the women brought up the wage differential, it was pointed out that nearly all of them had simply accepted the companies initial offer without a word of protest.

I'm still not quite sure why this is, but many women seem to be reluctant to negotiate their salaries in earnest, and to demand that they be paid what they're worth. There are some, of course, and I applaud them...but they do tend to be the minority.