Are we going to lose the culture wars? (Fundies targeting our kids)

[Taverner]

I fear we are.

In most schools today, Fundamentalist Christian kids are a much organized force than they were when I was in school. They have a strategic approach in converting our children, inviting them to free 'concerts' which turn out later to be revival meetings.

They will use the pressure tactics before only used by used car salesmen and then use fear, guilt and lies to get other kids to convert.

Once in, like any cult, the pressure to conform mounts, and soon the kids are forced to adopt the fundamentalist culture without question, for fear of hell.

Don't think it can happen to your kid? Think again - they often target children from left-wing families. Why? They feel that our 'moral relevatism' makes them easy game. When we bring up our children to examine all possibilities, rather than form a black and white morality - it makes them easy prey for these vultures.

[jpgray]

1. In my Midwest school, the fundies were powerfully uncool

Maybe it is different now?

[Taverner]

3. It was that way when I was a kid too

However, things have changed. Fundamentalism has had a makeover, and they've got their eyes set on our kids. They way it works is such:

1 - Fundy kid meets another kid. Hangs out, doesn't mention religion.

2 - Asks kid if he'd like to go to a free concert. Shows handbill. The handbill says nothing about its true intention.

3 - Kid goes, and soon it becomes clear the concert is a revival meeting with rock music. ("Praise Rock" as it's called among devotees.)

4 - Using guilt, fear and making the kid feel left out, the other kids pressure him or her to "walk the sawdust trail" at the end. You see, every Fundie revival contains this, where those who "don't know Christ" are encouraged (sometimes forced) to walk down the aisle to the front of the stage where they can (ususally with crocodile tears and what not)accept Christ. Once theyve done this, they're in.

It's pretty hard to break out of the cult after that - trust me.

[jpgray]

5. Yes--broad, unconditional acceptance can be very powerful

And cults/fundamentalists can certainly offer that to a young person, who will be particularly vulnerable to that form of persuasion at a socially awkward age.

[jjmalonejr]

2. This is why parents need to talk with their kids...

...about sex, drugs and fundamentalists.

Don't let your child be a victim.

[kiahzero]

4. No, fundies are on the wrong side of history

Even among young conservatives, there is a significant amount of support for same-sex marriage and other liberal social causes.

[Taverner]

8. I agree they're (Fundies) morally and ethically wrong...

But they are a CULT. They practice deceptive methods to recruit and keep their memberships, and to keep mental and spiritual control over those members.

Lately I'm not so sure the good guys always win...

[cally]

6. I don't think so

This generation is very savvy about mass marketing. They have a phony meter that is much greater than mine was at their age. The fundies approach uses mass marketing instead of individual ideals.

In my HS (30 years ago) we had Mormans who tried to recruit teens. Invited us to overnights, Halloween Parties, and other events. Very, very few went to these. We all heard the stories of how they used the party to recruit new members. It only took one or two teens to come back and talk about it for the entire HS to know. I suspect it's the same now.

[murielm99]

18. When I was a kid, the Jehovah's Witnesses did that.

Maybe it was just our local group, but they did lots of teen dances and parties. I knew a few people who got hooked by them back then.

I even have an uncle who got hooked, and has raised his whole family in that particular cult. Everyone else in the family is disgusted with their choice, but they are still part of the family, and accepted as such. He is actually a pretty good guy. I don't know what went wrong there.

You still have the power to FORBID you kids to do certain things. Pay attention to what they are doing, who they are socializing with, and tell them NO when necessary.

We raised our kids in a pretty liberal denomination. I don't agree with everything they say, but that is what we did. When my oldest daughter wanted to join a prayer group in high school, I looked into it. I did not like what I saw, and I told her she was not allowed to go. I think she is too smart to get taken in by the fundy wingnuts, but who knows?

Only my son is a regular churchgoer now. My youngest is Wiccan. She tried to seduce a young Mormon missionary once. She says they are unseducable! LOL

They are old enough to make their own choices, but I will still make my voice heard if I thought they were getting into something unhealthy.

[iconoclastic cat]

20. Mormans?

Are they related to the Moran sect?
(kidding)
I have actually stood up for Mormons/Jehovah's Witness when I see them being publicly ridiculed, so don't jump on me.
Nobody's ever tried to convert me, either.

[Taverner]

21. Mormons aren't really fundamentalists

and are remarkably more open minded than the Fundies are.

[iconoclastic cat]

22. I was actually making light of the spelling error in cally's post,

which may or may not have been in bad taste.
Yes, I have known several Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, and they have never discussed religion unless I have been the one to bring it up. I actually did get into a long discussion with a Christian Reconstructionist one time when I was at a library; he did try to get me to join him for a one-on-one Bible study, but I politely declined. The look of utter dejection on his face was painful to see, and he never spoke to me again. I felt sort of guilty.

[neebob]

25. I was raised Mormon

and let's just say I was not encouraged to associate with non-members. Which is not to say I'd have been frowned upon if I'd brought one of my wayward friends to church. I just wasn't encouraged to do it.

The Mormon church has this whole big army of barely not teenagers that they send out to locate people who are willing to completely change their beliefs and go through this whole big process of joining the church. It's not this deal where you just accept Jesus as your savior and you're in.

I think the Mormons focus more on raising up missionaries because it serves the dual purpose of keeping kids in the church, by forcibly immersing them in it at the time they're most likely to venture away, while bringing in new members.

[theboss]

43. Mormons are the most laid-back missionaries going

If you can't resist a Mormon, you'd better never try to buy gym equipment because you are going to be paying off that top-of-the-line treadmill for a long, long time.

[eurolefty]

48. I used to hang around with Mormons

I have never had any religious conviction myself, but I used to hang around with Mormon missionaries as a teenager. I totally agree that they are very laid-back. None of them tried to drag me into their faith.

[Must_B_Free]

7. In my elementary school

they just had "The Bread Bus" come by every week and the kids would go out there for an hour after lunch and learn Bible verses and get a popsicle.

The couple of us who weren't part of that were allowed to sit in the classroom in the dark and read or put our head on our desk.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

9. It's time like this that the Bilderbergs look good.

They are not perfect but they are NOT conspiring to undermine the world. They are an Internationalist and Liberal organization.

They do not like fundementalist religious because they know that it's a corrupting force.

[Alerter_]

10. no, we already won the culture wars

the only cultural issue the fundies can honestly win on abortion and simple racism, but they are losing on those issues right now. When they target the LGBT community, you know they are desperate. Even the rank and file Christians don't want to smear their sisters, aunts, uncles, cousins, and friends who are gay.

Honestly, I hope the GOP plays the homophobe card - they are already destroying themselves, and that will quicken the entire process. Americans may be "conservative" and "old fashioned" but they aren't haters and bigots.

[Taverner]

12. Again, keep in mind the culture wars are about much more than GLBT freedom

It is about personal freedom. I think a lot of people don't understand that if it is socially acceptable to discriminate against Gays, it is then acceptable to discriminate against straight people for whatever reason.

Gay rights affect all of us - as a straight supporter of Gay Rights I FULLY UNDERSTAND THIS.

Fundamentalist Christianity is a complete affront to personal freedom. It takes the view that the church knows what's best for us better than we do. That is the crux of Fundamentalism. It's the root of their homophobia, their hatred of women and of sex in general.

[Alerter_]

17. no, Fundamentalist Christianity isn't

"Fundamentalist Christianity is a complete affront to personal freedom. It takes the view that the church knows what's best for us better than we do."

No, no. Even the most hard core rank-and-file fundy isn't usually a hater, why would he hate his cousin or uncle? The GOP and scumbags like Jerry Faultwell try to stir up hatred, but look how Bush's anti-marriage amendment turned out - the regular Christians wanted no part of it.

The scumbags really overplayed their hands on this one - and their support of sick, disgusting torture is just making them more desperate to blame someone else - I predict they crash and burn. Attacking the LGBT community and attacking reproductive rights is killing the Republicans. Truly the only thing to worry about are these dissident Catholic priests. Bush's base is demoralized (rightly so, for supporting that disgusting sicko Bush) and unless the wingnut Catholics and Protestants succeed in destroying reproductive rights, we're fine.

The anti-gay Constitutional Amendment is a joke - give them the rope to hang themselves, and we'll all celebrate afterwards.

[Taverner]

19. Have you spent much time with these folks?

There may be some that are angry about the anti-gay marriage ammendment, but SOOOO many aren't.

The way these people think is not like the Catholics or Mainline Protestant. It is VERY different.

They see the world in two groups: Godly and Worldly. Anyting 'of the world' is evil, and everything Godly is good. Homosexuality, in their eyes, is 'of the world' and deserving of condemnation.

Have you heard about Christian Reconstructionism? The whole idea is to replace the US government with a Christian Theocracy with the Old Testament punishments (stoning for gays, etc.) Now before you say this can't happen, there are Reconstrcutionists ALREADY in high places. John Ashcroft for one. The CEO of Diebold is another.

[Alerter_]

31. I know all about them, and reconstructionists

and outside a few of the male "leaders" the majority of rank-and-file Christians - fundie or not - want no part of them. They are a paper tiger, and their only danger is their votes for Bush. In fact, the fundies are being used to scare liberals, progressive, and moderates. They are a concern, certainly, but we shouldn't attribute more power or savvy to them then they really have.

Like I said, when the wingnuts start attacking the LGBT community, you know they are desperate. It worked in the past, but it obviously doesn't work anymore.

[ck4829]

11. When I saw the heading of the post...

I was about to say 'Culture wars' is a bad term. The term Culture war was cooked up by the Father of the Christian Right, Paul Weyrich. Weyrich is the head of the Free Congress Foundation.
PFAW on the FCF
Secrets of the Free Congress Foundation
The last link I recommend you read. The FCF is more powerful than the average American knows.
The obvious way to combat this is to teach the children that a purely exclusivist and extremist lifestyle is not good. We should tell them to examine all possibilities, but we should also tell them to think for themselves and once they are hooked by these people then they will not be able to look at all the possibilities any more.

[Taverner]

13. I dunno I think the term applies

They declared war on all of us, plain and simple.

Thanks for the links tho - after reading a few paragraphs these guys already strike me as scary beyond belief.

[seabeyond]

14. depends on parents. i put my kids smack in a fundie school

and they have been there for 5 years. i have watched closely and i listen to boys. what they are taught. we talk a lot of spirituality in this house. yet i do it in purity, christ conscious. so they see a truth and harmony what i teach them, and clearly the hypocrisy shows itself in what the school teaches them. so with my help and the enviroment they live in, at school they get to learn this stuff and have a better understanding how people are conditioned and behave in sheep like manner. and clearly in their heart they know that is not what god was asking for man

so conclusion. if parents are connected with children, and listen and talk and participate in childrens life, it can be a huge huge lesson in life for children to understand and embrace and learn to love these people, without being pulled in. and this will help them throughout life in the many different ways we humans are conditioned by propoganda from all sides.

[Taverner]

16. It depends on the kids too

I have a good friend who raised her daughter (all alone I might add) in a very nurturing, open minded environment. She was the liberal's liberal, and tried to teach her daughter that life is not a series of black and white decisions.

So it came as a shock that one of her daughters friends had sucked her into the Fundamentalist cult. Soon her daughter was not herself, instead a mindless, nonthinking sheep who could only quote bible verses.

My point is: no matter how connected a parent can be, the Fundamentalists are a very deceptive group. They will lie, cheat and coerce one to "save ones soul"

[mmonk]

15. Not my kids

One has autism and just graduated and is going to NC State in the fall. The other is 13 and has ADHD. Both were raised Catholic. So no real chance. Fundie kids don't associate with kids that have disabilities or are Catholic.

[PurityOfEssence]

23. Funny you should mention it: I got a call today from Scholastic Books

Remember them? I used to order lots of books from them when I was in grade school, and still have lots of them. Well, I've got small kids now, and order for them, so I got a call from them today hawking their new encyclopedia. I did actually order a book, and at the end of the call, he asked me "one final question": they're thinking of starting a Christian-themed line, and he wanted to know if I'd be interested. I told him "no".

I was annoyed by yet another example of the cloying invasiveness of all this crap, but it was only after a while that it began to sink in that the prime source of books for kids may soon be yet another carrier for religion. Mind you, the short guys are in Public Schools.

Anyone else getting sick of this shit?

[neebob]

24. I don't know about losing a culture war

but if you periodically stop and watch TBN while channel surfing, it doesn't take long to see that they ARE targeting kids. Just this evening my son and I were watching some kind of musical show that started out with this group hip-hop dancing to Our God is an Awesome God. I was getting after my son about making fun of them, but then it turned into this free-for-all kind of jam session where kids were taking the mike and screaming to God about bringing down Islam and Buddism and Hinduism and raising up Jesus and America and what have you. It was some scary shit.

Then my son reminded me of this "dance" at the local rec center that he got invited to last year that turned out to be one of these revival things. He said the kids at this thing were acting like the ones on TV, throwing their hands in the air and freaking out. And this pastor guy was preaching about how he knew they cried at night because their parents don't understand them and I forget what else, but he knew they cried because he used to cry, too. So if they felt like it they should just raise up to God and everyone would understand. And my son and his friend were standing there going whoa. They called me to come and pick them up.

My son thinks this behavior is very strange, but I can see how lonely kids who don't feel good about themselves could get sucked into it.

[LizW]

28. Where do you live, neebob?

If you don't mind saying. What you describe sounds very familiar.

A large Southern Baptist Church near where I live has a rec center for teens, and they have "socials" in cooperation with the local school system. My son hasn't gone so far, but I know the time will come when he wants to, because they are highly publicized and the kids are pushed to go.

From what I've heard, there's nothing overtly proselytizing going on, but the events are highly "sanitized" as you would expect in a church setting. Not that there's anything wrong with a wholesome event for teens, but it just seems like a slippery slope to me. The church is obviously using this as a recruiting tool for teens -- "Look at our cool teen center! Wouldn't you like to come to church here?" Although it's unspoken, the implication is there.

[neebob]

30. Durango, Colorado -

not exactly the Bible Belt. This was at the City rec center, which made it extra surprising to me.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

49. Wow. I say, WOW!

And this pastor guy was preaching about how he knew they cried at night because their parents don't understand them

That's Christian Family Values fer ya.

Double fscking airborne WOW on a stuffed platypus. :wow:

[KT2000]

26. Assembly of God

got a little girl I know. She was invited to go swimming and they took her to church after the swim. Other events followed. She acts now like she has been brainwashed.
She was anxious to pursue education and a profession. Now I don't know.
She was vulnerable because her mother died recently.
It is sad to see how children are exploited this way.

[Nlighten1]

29. This is serious too.

Religion is like a virus that gets inside the young mind. I am struggling now with my 4 year old daughter. One of the nieghborhood kids started blabbing to her about god and ever since then my daughter dutifully parrots, "god is real".

She is too young to understand it all so I try not to argue with her about it. I am trying to educate her about other religions and Buddhism.

The thing is it is very hard because now she has this idea that "god" is the ONE god that this girl told her about.

aaaaauuuuughhhh!

[theboss]

44. Because no Christian women go to college or get Professions

My mom's Master's Degree is just an illusion.

[KT2000]

57. Was your mom "captured?"

I doubt that your mother was taken on as a project by a family in a fundamentalist organization.
This young lady used to talk about her future all the time - with excitement. She was all about goals and adventure.
Now her speech is peppered with religious slogans and she seems to view the world through the filter of this particular religion.

She will likely get her degree but her further education and possible profession will be accomplished with the approval or disapproval of people in the Assembly of God Church.

She was a bright spirit but now she talks like a robot.

[stanwyck]

27. Many here are falling victim

to the right's very well-planned, well-financed culture wars. See the thread on the 11-yr. old girl complaining there are "no decent clothes" available. Now, any rational person knows this is a lie. A big lie. The stores are crammed full of modest clothiing. This widely distributed article is rightwing media hype. Whatever your feelings about how young girls are dressing, this thesis is a lie. The clothes exist. The parents with common sense about what their children are wearing may be in short supply, but the special catalogs (with special prices) are unnecessary. Follow the money.
Yet, many DUers bought into the scam. Be ever vigilant, folks. The right is well funded and well connected. They will get want they want if we don't show some fortitude. Sure, they sound reasonable. But dig deeper. This is an agenda. "We're offering choices." The choices already exist. They're pushing their views.

[theboss]

32. You are right; I'm a fool

I lifelong Democrat and Ivy-educated but I can't think on my own and can be duped by a Fundamentalist.

[stanwyck]

45. Bush is also "ivy educated"

so I'm afraid that's not quite the recommendation it once was.

[stanwyck]

46. by the way

your "ivy" education is betraying you. Your posts list women "getting professions" (?) and you say: "I lifelong Democract". Is that like "I Tarzan?" Maybe we've been too hard on Bush. Maybe the ivy schools don't teach syntax. We should cut him some slack.

[theboss]

47. Sorry; I will start editing just for you

n/t

[stanwyck]

51. Thanks! n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

50. I hear languege processing and critical thought are handled by...

nearby brain areas. I could be wrong, though. I'm no neurologist. :eyes:

[ithacan]

33. no vocal fundies in the schools here...

and I can't imagine this kind of thing happening here. Maybe in more rural areas, but even there, I'd agree with an above poster that fundies are the ultimate "uncool"...

The way to avoid this is to teach your children, from the earliest ages (3-4) to think critically, to explain spirituality and spiritual values vs. organized religion, explain how religion is abused to manipulate people, explain about fundamentalism. And spend time with your kids. In other words, innoculate your kids to these kinds of ideas.

[theboss]

34. Isn't it horrible?

Next thing you know, the kid is living a moral life filled with friends while not being pregnant or on drugs. And where will that lead us?

[Lars39]

36. You must not have any hardcore fundies in your own life.

The only friends the fundies will let a child have is fundies. They are very quick to tell you that you shouldn't be friends with the godless.

[theboss]

37. By most standards here, I am a fundy

After a year on this site, I have no idea what a "fundy" is any longer. I thought I was a liberal Christian, but that seems to be reserved for Christians who don't say anything publicly. Apparently, I am a Fundy since I actually believe my relgion and talk about it. I used to bring friends to church camp and youth groups and even got a couple to start attending regularly. I'm a bad person.

[Lars39]

39. But they knew they were church camps, right?

They knew it was church events they were attending? Or do you attend one of the big-box Southern Baptist churches that give no clue in the name that they are Southern Baptist or whatever denomination?

[theboss]

40. How do you trick someone into going to church?

I've never attened church that pretended it wasn't.

[Lars39]

42. Lots of ways, especially if a child is lonely.

:shrug:

[neebob]

52. If it makes you feel any better

I have a problem with the term fundy. Fundamentalists to me are like the polygamists in Utah - extremely different from the rest of the population. I don't think that's true of the people described here as fundies, but I have to admit I haven't personally observed any fundamentalists other than the Mormon kind. I wouldn't call regular Mormons or the people on TBN fundamentalists. I call them the religious right.

[BigMcLargehuge]

54. this ridiculous assertion that only Christians can live

moral, drug-free, teen pregnancy-free lives really pisses me off. Worse, Boss, it betrays your hand... Liberal Christian my BigMcLargehuge ass. I know liberal Christians, I have them in my family. You aren't one.

If DU demonstrates intolerance for "fundies" that in no way exceeds the amount of self serving and self important religious bullshit and faux outrage that gets posted here by self described liberal christians.

You don't like the term fundy? Tough shit. I don't like churches, any churches, so I don't go to them. You should try a similar method when dealing with "words" that you don't like.

But then, I'm an adult, and a moral one at that.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

55. Heheh. Keep dreaming pal.

Reality has that way of hitting us REAL hard. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=1225970

[Dr Fate]

35. test

test

[porphyrian]

38. Fear Not

I'm not sure which kids of Fundies you've met, but I can tell you right now that most kids, especially during adolescence, rail against the restrictive mind-control environment of extreme Christianity. In fact, some of the wildest people I partied with came from that environment. Give kids a little credit and don't worry so much. Once they get old enough to understand they're being lied to and manipulated, they usually swing violently the other way. Just don't try so hard to counter the Fundie beliefs that you end up having your kids rebel against yours.

[NewJeffCT]

41. I agree

Not just the pressure tactics, but the Fundies are extremely well organized and financed. 25 years ago, nobody took them seriously... but, they have slowly been working their way into local school boards & town councils so they can influence the ciriculum, and from there, they go to state legislatures and now we have a fundy President & fundy Senators like Santorum & Brownback. They've been patient in evolving American politics - Barry Goldwater was so conservative and far out of the mainstream in 1964 that he got swamped by LBJ. Now, because of the work of the Religious Reich, Goldwater today would likely be seen as a moderate Republican.

Also, a lot of those fundy families are the ones with 10+ kids. Even if 1 of the 10+ slips up and becomes a non-fundamentalist, it is still 9+ that are young fundies that will go out and make another 10+ kids each in 20-30 years.

They see this as a long term struggle for theocracy. If they keep geting elected locally and working their way up through the ranks, keep having tons of kids, they will be a larger, more powerful force in 20 years than they are now...

[Carolina]

53. NO!

Children learn what they live. So don't discount all the other influences such as parents (parental views), exposure(s) to other perspectives via travel, reading, different people, and individual free will.

Yes, Fundies decided to go underground and infiltrate school boards, etc. in 1988 when Pat Robertson lost big time in repuke presidential primaries to Poppy. His boy wonder, Ralph Reed, even admitted to their new strategy: don't go for the big office, infiltrate locally until you have taken over. There's no doubt they have been successful and they have influence BUT they are NOT the only influence and their hubris and hypocrisy will be their undoing.

[greekspeak]

56. When I was in high school, a group I think called K-Life

had as members the core of the school's ruling elite. All the repuke light kids went to it. This was some sort of Christian group. I seriously doubt that all those kids had some sort of personal relationship with Christ. I think they joined or else.

There is nothing that can be done about this fundamentalist push for warm bodies. Its constitutionally their right to do what they do. We can create alternatives, we can police the situation for unconstitutional behavior. But fundamentalists prey on peoples' fear of suffering as a control mechanism. Its very powerful. Also, the more persecuted the fundamentalists look, the more sympathy and suppor they get. Wonder how they have gotten so much power? Praying on fear and milking sympathy from people.

[robbedvoter]

58. In our very liberal school, neighborhood a few bushies are intimidating

everyone into "not discussing politics" on the parents yahoo list. I've been telling them that excessive politeness leads to defeat - PTA by PTA. But the ones whose posts have been attacked rebuffed me - we need to politely lie down and allow 5 people shut us down. They don't approve of Bush bashing so we STFU! I am boiling - but this is how it's done: they bully, we are "NICE"

[redqueen]

59. If children have a good spiritual education

about all faiths, as well as about the dangers of fundamentalism, I doubt they'll be easy marks.

If they have no knowledge to build on, then they might get fooled, so there is a danger, though.