NYT confirms key element of today's "Bush is CRAZY" internet story

[troublemaker]

All day this amusing but presumptively dubious story has been kicking around: http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/printer_4636.shtml For those who haven't read it, it essentially says Bush has lost his mind and the WH has devolved into something akin to the atmosphere of Nixon's last days.

My chief interest in the piece is that it provided an explanation of the monumental disarray associated with Bush's announcement of Tenet's resignation, and particularly what happened during the minutes *after* Bush's press conference with PM Howard and before his insane Tenet announcement. The CapHillBlue story said that Bush fired Tenet himself without telling any of the big players that are presumed to run the WH and that he told them only minutes before his announcement.

Leaving aside whether Tenet resigned or was fired, the key here is that Bush was keeping it a secret from his own people until only minutes before he bugged out of town for Europe. That was, to me and many others, the single most difficult thing to swallow thing in the entire CapHillBlue story.

(On edit for clarity) Everyone agrees that Capitol Hill Blue has a less than perfect track record and (almost) everyone has treated the story with caution, awaiting confirmation of key elements from more mainstream sources. (end edit)

This paragraph wasn't in the early editions of today's New York Times but sneaked into the final:

After delivering a press conference with the Australian PM in the Rose Garden, Bush apparently walked back into the Oval Office, where he mentioned the resignation to Cheney, Powell, Rice, and other senior advisers. A few minutes later, Bush re-emerged to make the public announcement before hopping in his chopper.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/04/politics/04TENE.html?pagewanted=print&position=

So maybe the dubious story wasn't so dubious after all. CapHillBlue seems to have gotten at least this one surprising detail right. (And before the NYT had it)

Does that mean Bush really did fire Tenet without running it by Rove and Cheney? And if Tenet didn't make his private appointment with Bush in order to resign, what was the meeting about? What did Tenet tell Bush that was so 'disloyal'? Did he perhaps signal his intention to cooperate with the Plame Grand Jury, or what? (tinfoil futures are soaring)
___________________________________________

earlier ruminations on this crazy story here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1717361

[malatesta1137]

1. the only thing you didn't explain

is why you think this Capitol Hill Blue's story is 'presumptively dubious'.

[troublemaker]

3. Sorry, I should have explained. The site's track record is less than

perfect and it started out as a pretty right-wing site and anything that's only on a single small gossipy type web-site warrants caution--especially when the allegations are big.

Atrios (who I like pretty well) described it with great caution: "one should not trust Capitol Hill Blue, but I thought this article nicely catered to all of our prejudices so it's a fun read if nothing else" And there's some excellent skeptical discussion of the site's reputation in the LBN thread on this article. So nobody (myself included) wants to embrace every word as gospel, but it at least deserves serious examination based on how it meshes with other data.

[RobertSeattle]

4. Capital Hill Blue got duped a year ago or so

They did a mea culpa, but it hurts.
http://www.capitolhillblue.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive=19&num=2529

[troublemaker]

5. Yes, that's one reason I want to see confirmation

But assuming Bush really did leave town and tell his cabinet as sort of an afterthought, "Oh, by the way... Tenet doesn't work here anymore. See you when I get back from Europe"... it's mind-boggling.

I'd say the NYT has buried the lede (for the millionth time)

[snoochie]

30. Exposing my ignorance here, but...

What is a 'lede'?

[troublemaker]

34. Old Journalistic term for what we would call the topic sentence...

the meat of the story... the most important or newsworthy thing.

Similar concept to "lead paragraph" but actually spelled "lede" I think.

[Joanne98]

11. But at least they did a mea culpa

It's more than anyone else does.

[Moloch]

42. Yeah really..

gives them quite a bit more credibility than Drudge anyway..

[Renew Deal]

2. That's scary.

:scared: Didn't they take the nuclear football away from Nixon?

[Eric J in MN]

6. both articles also have commas and periods, therefore

both articles also have commas and periods, therefore the entire capitolhillblue story must be true (/sarcasm)

[Pepperbelly]

7. that is a bit presumptuous ...

What the Times story does is confirm elements of the story, at least those that can be verified by readily available information concerning the timing, the circumstances and the sequence of certain events. It is not even close metaphorically to the verification by the Times article. When dealing with things concealed, sometimes the only confirmation one can get is the framework of the story outlines by verifiable events.

[troublemaker]

10. For instance...

A report sourced only to "people familiar with the WH" is presumptively weak.

If details of that account are confirmed suggesting familiarity with details of events in the WH that are not public that is one bit of information in favor of there being a source at all, as opposed to someone with a web-site just making stuff up.

The source can still be lying or mistaken about other particulars, but the credibility of the overall story moves up one notch.

Since CapitolHillBlue seemed to know something very interesting about the movements of people in the WH before the NYT did (or before they could get sufficient confirmation) that moves the overall credibility of the story in question up a notch.

[Pepperbelly]

26. exactly what i meant ...

but you drew the line even more distinctly.

Thanks.

:toast:

[displacedtexan]

8. ABC and NBC both confirmed that Tenet asked for the meeting...

and told Bush he was resigning.

My theory: Tenet's letter of resignation arrived while Bush* was loving freedom with freedom lover Howard at the podium; Bush was told the letter had arrived right after Bush* left the podium; Bush* had to turn around and come up with some lame crap to say about Tenet.

[troublemaker]

12. Tenet didn't resign in a letter

The official story is that he resigned in a face-to-face meeting with Bush Wednesday night. (People who say he was fired still say he wa fired Wednesday night.)

on edit: Of course there's always an official letter of resignation eventually... my meaning is that Bush did not learn of Tenet's resignation from a letter.

[Joanne98]

13. Capital Hill Blue said Bush fired him.

It's in the erratic article today.

[lancdem]

9. And the timing was weird

If Rove were behind Tenet's firing, it wouldn't have happened on the eve of Chimpy's trip to Europe.

[onecitizen]

14. I think he is sick.......

mentally. And he's getting worse. The fact that he traded drinking for God was my first clue. But when you use religion as a way to deal with everything(inc. Foreign policy) and you're the most powerful man on earth.....Houston, we have a problem.

When you watch him talk to us or the media, he'll say a few words, stop, smirk and scan the crowd as though he wants to say something like "You don't like it huh? Too damn bad cause I'M THE PRESIDENT" oooohh scary!:scared:

[troublemaker]

15. Huh... I hadn't even noticed this weirdness

Bush apparently walked back into the Oval Office, where he mentioned the resignation to Cheney, Powell, Rice, and other senior advisers.

That makes me wonder what the NYT's sourcing is like on this detail... why "apparently"? This could be old-school careful journalism meaning "our source saw him in the Oval Office so he probably walked there but we can't swear he didn't swim or fly there," but that's stretching things a bit.

So why "apparently?" What I am trying to get at is was the NYT source in the room? If not that could explain the hedging. But if the NYT can't get confirmation from someone in the room then the WH is clamped down tight on a matter that shouldn't be a big deal at all.

[kodi]

16. why, it might just show that bush is a bold and decisive leader

and it might just show that bush is a real nutbag.

[MasonJar]

17. He is definitely unstable; maybe it is true.

[lancdem]

18. I just thought of something

Remember that trip Bush took to Canada, the one where he made remarks about how "pretty" that male press secretary was? There also were reports that Canadian officials were shocked at how Bush would talk about religion in one breath and then use profanity in the next one. Hmmm...

BTW, anyone think it interesting that this is the second day in a row Capitol Hill Blue had a story like this? Yesterday they postd the article saying witnesses before the Plame grand jury said Bush knew.

[troublemaker]

19. I need your help here

Where/When did you first hear or read that "Cheney, Powell, Rice, and other senior advisers" learned of Tenet's resignation only after the press conference with PM Howard? Was it in your papers or on the news this morning?

I ask because my first exposure to that detail was on CapitolHillBlue this morning, but I don't read every paper and only watch (at most) one channel at a time, so maybe this was common knowledge. Was it? Help me out. (I'm trying to pin down who, if anyone, in the room was talking to the press about that meeting)

[librechik]

21. It was a CapHillB scoop this am

nobody else had it until this NYT mention above.

I wonder who Cap's source is on this?

on edit: "a person familiar with Mr. Tenet's thinking" (NYT)
also:
"The timing of the announcement appeared to take even senior White House officials by surprise.As one recounted the events..."

perhaps indicates a different source?

no sign of "apparently" in this version. The reporter is just improving the sentence structure by and clarifying the "recount of events" by removing the "apparently" and saying it as a direct fact told by one "senior White House Official"

more from the Times:

"As one recounted the events, Mr. Bush had just walked back into the Oval Office after finishing a morning news conference in the Rose Garden with Prime Minister John Howard of Australia. At that point, Mr. Bush informed a small group in the Oval Office that Mr. Tenet had resigned. The group included Mr. Cheney; Secretary of State Colin L. Powell; Condoleezza Rice, the national security adviser; Andrew H. Card Jr., the White House chief of staff; and Dan Bartlett, the White House communications director.

Minutes later, Mr. Bush reappeared on the White House lawn to make the short walk to Marine One, the presidential helicopter. En route, he stopped to make the statement about Mr. Tenet's resignation to a group of reporters."

[troublemaker]

22. A member of Andy Card's staff is my guess

Card knew about Tenet when the others didn't. They talked that night and it probably wasn't about the Redskins.

[H2O Man]

23. It's interesting.

I do not think that the NYT's article "confirms" this at all. The word "apparently" is but one flashing red light. bush "mentioned" it to the boys, rice, and others. "Mentioned" does not mean "broke the news" in any way. Rather, it implies calling attention to something in a casual way. It is very likely that the context this is in is merely in reference to bush preparing to make the announcement.

I will say this: bush is, as we all know, a power-hungry, control freak, who has a world view that places himself at the EXACT CENTER of the universe. He is convinced that God has selected him as the MOST IMPORTANT human being on earth. We do not need to question this. He has made it very clear that he believes this.

bush has a rigid frame of reference, no? What happens to that which is rigid when pressure is applied? It snaps. Always.

The one article is suspect if only because it sounds (a) too good to be true; and (b) like a Kitty Kelly re-write of a watergate story. I do not place great trust in it.

Yet, I am convinced that bush is moving rapidly towards irrational behavior ..... uh, make that even more irrational than before. He will see people's rejecting him (the polls) as a bibical test, where the Great God Himself is in heaven, hoping that Lord George will stand firm, gird his loins, and do God's work against all odds. It's going to be happening, to some extent. Tighten your seltbelts, America.

[troublemaker]

27. ***** More Information *****

Here's the correctt language (I inadvertantly copied a paraphrase in the original post):

The timing of the announcement appeared to take even senior White House officials by surprise. As one recounted the events, Mr. Bush had just walked back into the Oval Office after finishing a morning news conference in the Rose Garden with Prime Minister John Howard of Australia. At that point, Mr. Bush informed a small group in the Oval Office that Mr. Tenet had resigned. The group included Mr. Cheney; Secretary of State Colin L. Powell; Condoleezza Rice, the national security adviser; Andrew H. Card Jr., the White House chief of staff; and Dan Bartlett, the White House communications director. Minutes later, Mr. Bush reappeared on the White House lawn to make the short walk to Marine One, the presidential helicopter. En route, he stopped to make the statement about Mr. Tenet's resignation to a group of reporters.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/04/politics/04TENE.html?pagewanted=print&position=

The CapitolHillBlue language: Bush informed his shocked staff of the decision Thursday morning. One aide says the President actually described the decision as "God's will."

Don't know what it all means, but it's sure interestin'

[librechik]

28. psychotics are very conservative

they are terrified to have the rigid order of their world disturbed in any way. They must have their breakfast exactly at 8:15 and the napkin must always be folded just so and placed 3 in. to the left of the plate no more no less.

That would explain why he was so desperate to keep Tenet in place no matter what and why he will be slow to replace him. It would take building a new relationship, and those are essentially impossible for the psychotic/NPD/OPD type. No empathy.

Silly to diagnose so generally, but who can resist with such a tempting target?

[H2O Man]

35. psychotics are

far more likely to be disorganized than organized. bush shows no symptoms of psychosis that I am aware of. People with severe personality disorders, when under great stress, can appear to be psychotic for brief periods....and it is possible that we will see this. This is terrible to say, but I'd almost like to see him break during a debate with Kerry, live on national television. I feel guilty about even saying that. But I'm laughing as I write this, because it if, for example, Kerry challenges him on one of his lies, it could happen.

[librechik]

36. ooohh yeah (licking chops)

I can feel that breakdown coming now. I hope we all get to see it. I witnessed The Moment with Nixon; it is a memory I will always treasure.

and I don't mean psychotics are organized, just becasue they have to have everything just so--think of those people who save all their trash and stuff, filling their houses with garbage bags full of crap until the health department discovers them with their dozens of cats--they can't bear to say goodbye to one cat, or allow a trash man to clean up their house without getting anxious and reactive. Like that.

But a borderline who is adapted to society and even in a position where he wields power over others? He will tend to be ultra clean and fastidious and picky about all his stuff, scared to not be scheduled or have his world view challenged in any way. They seem very organized, but you can't get them to be flexible on one tiny thing, which often works against a true organizing habit. You may have had a boss like that, I know I have... They are just as crazy as the trash bag cat lady, and they have the same disease.

[Cronus Protagonist]

41. I think that's what Gore was trying to do - have him break on TV

During the debates, Gore deliberately stood very close to shrubya, often walking to his chair and looming over him. He's much taller than Bush. I detected then an attempt at domination over shrubya to try to get him to crack. Gore looked at shrubya with distaste, perhaps even malice, but shrubya didn't crack - he bumbled, he fumbled, but he didn't get mad.

I'm convinced he's on drugs when he does press conferences and debates to ensure that he doesn't explode. All it will take is for him to explode into speaking in tongues on TV and it will be all over. He won't do it no matter how pissed off he is.

Having said that, I think the path to making him crack is to insult his mother. The whole Bush family worships the ground she slithers across and they all rush to defend her beasutiful mind from even the slightest slurs.

http://www.apple.com/trailers/lions_gate/fahrenheit_911/

[RafterMan]

38. It was on Charlie Rose

the night it happened.

It was David Sanger's take on why the press conference was so strangely organized.

[Warren DeMontague]

20. Classic Symptoms

Of a full-blown alcoholic relapse/bender.

[troublemaker]

24. As someone said to me today, "Bush didn't fall off a bike, he

fell off the steps... the twelve steps."

(Unfortunately for us all Bush has never been in a twelve step program, but it's still funny.)

[seemslikeadream]

25. LBN been talking about this today too

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=602189&mesg_id=602189

[DrBB]

29. Nice CATCH Troublemaker

Nice catch indeed. Very good eye, dude (or dudette). One of the few bits of factual data I've seen on this story so far.

[troublemaker]

31. MEA CULPA about this post

Neither of these corrections changes my basic point that the craziest thing in the crazy CapHillBlue story is also in the NYT, so maybe it's not entirely crazy, but these two things do need to be cleaned up some.

First, given how fast something can be put on the internet it's not impossible that CapitolHillBlue was picking up this angle from the NYT... I don't *know* that CapHill got it first or got it independently. It looks that way but I hope people who know more about these things will chime in. I cannot discern the sequence of publication. Thir story is "Jun 4, 2004, 06:15" and "Last Updated: Jun 4th, 2004 - 06:29:08," and I asssume that's EST not GMT. I don't know when the NYT final comes out. It's a small point, but I was questioning why CapHill had it before the NYT and I don't *know* they did.

Secondly, There's some confusion (caused by me) about the NYT's specific language. I thought they had updated their final edition text but the quote from my original post was actually a paraphrase, though I didn't realize it at the time.

SLATE's "Today's Papers" column mentioned the NYT addition. I read the NYT article but when I went for the money quote this evening I got it from SLATE (lazy!!!) where the text I cited followed a colon and I thought it was in quotes. It was actually Sam Schechner's paraphrase. It's a solid paraphrase but the word "apparently" was SLATE's word, not the NYT word.

I had already read the NYT piece so when I went for the quote I wasn't really *reading* the language I pulled out, just cut and pasting it. If I had been *reading* it I would have noted that the NYT doesn't use phrases like "hopping in his chopper." Duh!

Fortunately the correct language of the NYT quote occurs twice in this thread already. Sorry for the sloppiness.

[troublemaker]

32. <<< HIGHLIGHTING THIS

see above (31. Small MEA CULPA about this post)

[troublemaker]

33. <<<< CORRECTION

see above: (31. Small MEA CULPA about this post)

[grasswire]

39. like everything else with this kakistocracy...

....one has to examine every detail with near forensic precision.

Didn't I see that Bush had his Tenet comments written on paper? And if so, why did he stumble so when making those few comments?

[starroute]

37. Am I the only one who doesn't find this story too wild to believe?

I get the impression that most people here think the Capitol Hill Blue story *might* be true, but is so over the top that they can't accept it without solid outside evidence. But to me it seemed extremely plausible and self-consistent. Let me explain why:

I believe strongly that most human beings remain functionally sane only through regular reality checks with others. If they don't get those, they are likely to go off the deep end. Solitary confinement can drive people nuts. Hermits and recluses become increasingly strange and wild-eyed. Cult members who are isolated from everybody except other cult members wind up in some very strange mental places.

Similarly, being in a position of extreme power can leave people with no outside feedback to correct their inner imbalances. Think about Elvis. He was cut off from everyday life, surrounded by yes-men, with no extravagance he couldn't buy and no whim he couldn't indulge. As a result, he got nutsier and nutsier. Or think about Howard Hughes in his later years.

History is full of mad kings and mad emperors and mad caliphs, whose behavior became more and more extreme until they were finally overthrown or assassinated. Often, their growing paranoia caused them to kill or exile their only honest advisors, leaving them increasingly talking to no one but themself.

We've been hearing from Republican Congresspersons and the like that even in their company, Bush only talks and refuses to listen. Under those circumstances, I would find it hard to believe that he wasn't at least a little crazy. The only real question in my mind is whether he's only Elvis-level crazy or Nixon-level crazy, or whether he's coming totally unhinged and is a danger to himself and others.

[bobthedrummer]

40. I swear Bush is HIVE!

:crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy:
:puke::grr::argh::nuke:

[demgrrrll]

43. Bat shit crazy. n/t.

.