Wellstone.

[Raskolnik]

When my hero Paul Wellstone died a few years ago, the progressive liberal movement lost someone who they viewed as a champion and an icon. Some conservatives took the opportunity of his passing to mock his ideals and score cheap political points at his expense. They were terrible people for doing so.

Some conservatives, however, simply stated that although they disagreed with many of his political decisions, Wellstone was a man of his principles and at the moment it was simply a time to mourn a human being's passing and give condolences to his family. In particular, Rush Limbaugh showed restraint and behaved appropriately (surprisingly enough).

My question to those here at DU is this: if we can't be at least as good as that piece of garbage Limbaugh, what good are we? I LIKE being able to categorize liberals as the more humane and generous political group. I don't want to give people reason to doubt that.

I am NOT asking people to forget Reagan's many ill deeds. History will remember him appropriately, I believe. However, there is a time and place for attacking a man and his politics. The day of his death is not that day. We do ourselves and our cause a disservice when we descend into this kind of childish, ghoulish gloating at a man's death.

Thanks for taking the time to listen.

[Lou_C]

1. The right wingers were tearing Wellstone down

Before the bodies could be exhumed from the airplane that they brought down before the election.

I hated Reagan and I don't have an ounce of sympathy for him.

He was old and it was his time to go. How much longer should he have lived on life support. Every minute was costing the taxpayers money because of his gigantic hospital bills.

[Raskolnik]

4. ?

Then why do you want to be like them? Be better!

[Lou_C]

10. I hated Reagan and no one can change that

Do you remember Iran Contra and the lies that he told during the hearings?

[Raskolnik]

13. That isn't really the issue.

Like I said, I am not aking anyone to foget his actions or lack of actions. Read my post again.

[vetwife]

35. It will just hurt us politically to pounce a dead man..What good is it !

We have to keep the eye on the prize..Reagan lived..He died. Let them immortalize him. They will anyway. Those people have blinders on. They see no evil if a great Big R is behind or in front of a name. Let it go...We need to quit it and let them bury their dead !

[Raskolnik]

50. Agree

You're right. On a purely practical level, we do ourselves a disservice by alienating those who think respectful dignity should guide times like this.

[DEMVET-USMC]

28. Reagan response:Kent State" If there is to be a bloodbath let it be now"

Kent State is a famous incident where 4 unarmed anti-war protesters were shot to death. Just learned about this from"genius". This puts me in the could care less, good riddance camp. ...Oscar

[Nlighten1]

31. Do you have a reference for this quote?

I googled it and it came up empty.

TIA

[DEMVET-USMC]

33. Yes,I found a very good link: [ www.flyingsnail.com ].

In case it does not link above I will retype it here < www.flyingsnail.com >. ...Oscar

[DFLer4edu]

2. Thank you!

I still feel the loss of Wellstone and it did mean something when a fair number of the Republicans laid down partisanship and honored his life.

[w13rd0]

18. And then the DAY AFTER his memorial service...

...those same Republicans picked that partisanship right back up again and spoke from the same page of talking points. *I* will stay silent about Reagan, if THEY stay silent about him.

[Raskolnik]

20. Quid pro Quo doesn't work all the time.

But wouldn't you agree that for the next few days at least it is counter-productive to engage in that kind of activity?

[w13rd0]

22. I don't know...

...I'm not feeling the need to engage in "that kind of activity". But the more I'm told I mustn't, the more I wonder. I'm against whitewashing, the dead or the living.

[Raskolnik]

26. Nothing to gain.

Its NOT whitewashing to allow for a bit of time to pass before attacking the man's legacy. We gain nothing be appearing inhumane and callous at a time like this.

Trust me, when they start to campaign for his face to be on the dime and Mt. Rushmore, I'll be front and center to stop them.

[NMDemDist2]

3. many have echoed your sentiments today and

BTW welcome to DU :hi:

[Raskolnik]

8. Thank you.

Thanks. I appreciate it.

[gmoney]

5. You mean Limbaugh: "This was NOT a memorial service"?

That Rush Limbaugh? The scum that tipped the election to Norm Coleman?

You're right, we should be classier than Limbaugh, but please don't hold him up as any sort of example to aspire to....

[Raskolnik]

9. Usually.

He's definitely not an example of what we should aspire to. I think we should ALWAYS be head and shoulders above him. Which we usually are. Usually.

[w13rd0]

19. Being head and shoulders above your political opponent...

...just means they don't have to bend down to grab your balls and twist.

[Raskolnik]

23. That may be so. but...

When I tell a fool at Free Republic to go fuck himself because we are better than they are, I want to be able to say it with a straight face.

[barbaraann]

6. Welcome.

Now start fighting the Bush administration.

[richmwill]

7. I agree

We must be better than them. We must be better than the people who will cheer and have street celebrations when the time comes for Bill and Hillary to meet their end (they'll probably "FREEP the Funeral!" too).

This is what I said to my mom earlier today on the phone, when she brought it up- I have sympathy for his family. Having a loved one with Alzheimers is probably one of the worst things I can imagine. I hope Ronald Reagan has found peace now, wherever he is. And bless his wife for caring for him all these years. And out of respect- I won't say anything else about it.

[Raskolnik]

11. Yeah.

Well said.

[DEMVET-USMC]

12. A lot of people think Paul Wellstone was assinated. There is some evidence

to support this. It may be at bartcop.com,not sure, as for the rest of what you said you have made some good points. ...Oscar

[DenverDem]

15. Democrats did not murder raygun.

Wellstone on the other hand. . .

[NightTrain]

14. I agree!

I had no love FOR Ronald Reagan and have been sorely tempted to posthumously tear him down; but when I think back to how the right excoriated Senator Wellstone and those who loved what he stood for, I just can't bring myself to sink that low. And I'm glad! :pals:

[Raskolnik]

We should all be glad to not sink that low.

I think what many people here are missing is the fact that showing human compassion does not equate with endorsing the man's politics.

I dislike Reagan's legacy as much as the next guy, but I'm unwilling to let that dislike turn me into something I don't want to be.

[JI7]

16. here is Paul Wellstone on Jesse Helms

< Mr. President, I thank the Senator.

I come here to the floor to announce that I have been in agreement with Senator Helms on just about every issue since he has been here--not quite, but I will say this. I think one of the ways you judge a person is just the way you watch them treat people.

I don't know if this has been said, but when I watch the way Senator Helms treats the pages here and the elevator operators and the support staff, I don't think there is anybody in the Senate who treats them with more grace and is kinder and more appreciative. In fact, I think there have been surveys that have put him at the very top.

I thank him for the way in which he has treated staff. I wish to tell him, though we have not agreed on the issues, I have appreciated getting to know him. I hope it is mutual.

I wish you, Senator Helms , and my wife wishes you the very best. We wish you well. >

http://www.bendomenech.com/blog/archives/000242.html

[Raskolnik]

17. Good point.

I know it might be a little trite, but it would probably be a good idea for all of us to ask ourselves what Senator Wellstone would want us to do in this situation.

No one had more grace and humanity in situations like this.

[progressivebydesign]

34. Wellstone had class.

As do Kerry, Kucinich, Clinton, as they responded to Reagan's death. I only wish that the vocal minority on DU had an ounce of class today. They are proving to be as narrow minded and hateful as those they despise; They have become what they hate.

I'm taking the high road on the Reagan subject. I may end up being a mere speed bump on that high road, but it's the only way to live. I ask.. WWGD? (what would Ghandi do?).

[yardwork]

21. I agree with you. Welcome to DU!

[Raskolnik]

25. Its not difficult, is it?

Thanks.

I'm just saying what I think any decent person really knows in their heart anyway.

[Skip Intro]

24. I agree

It is a time for restraint and tact.

(this post originally said something vastly different that, upon second reading, did not belong here)

[Raskolnik]

27. Human nature.

I think its important to realize that OF COURSE it is difficult to have to shut up while people sing his praises over the next few days.

There isn't anything unnatural about being tempted to sink to a base level. Actually sinking to that level, as too many people here have, is what gives conservative Republicans ample reason to dislike us.

[FlemingsGhost]

29. Reagan has been slowly deteriorating before our eyes.

Paul was snatched away in the middle of the night.

Given the circumstances, our collective emotional state was understandably a little rough around the edges. Their outrage at our grief was just plain ridiculous. They damned well weren't going to bad-mouth a dead man, but they made sure they kicked Paul's "family," (liberal U.S.A.,) while we were down. Hard.

Payback had better be a bitch if "the Gipper" is summoned from above to lead the Crusade on the righteous path to a glorious second term. A bitch, I say ... or the Democratic Party is more naive than I thought.

(on edit: P.S. Are you really asking me to gauge my standards of conduct according to the words and actions of Rush Limbaugh?)

[Raskolnik]

30. You are missing the issue.

I'm saying that if we can't at least be as respectful of a piece of garbage like Limbaugh, then we've got serious problems. The people that attacked Wellstone at the time of his death were/are ghouls that need a good slap in the face. I don't want to earn a similar slap from people who correctly think that a human being's passing is not an occasion for political attacks.

When the time is right, it will be crucial to fight back the myth that Reagan left a positive legacy for this country. The day of his death is not that time.

If we let their hatred and stupidity bait us into acting hatefully and stupidly as well, then what have we gained?

[Puglover]

32. With all due respect...

Ronald Reagan was no Paul Wellstone. You do well by having Paul as a hero, he was mine too. Paul worked for the common man and people who were disadvantaged. Although I don't share the "pissing one the grave" sentiments I understand the anger that people felt towards Reagan. The ONLY thing that a Freeper could be mad at Paul about would be his liberal philosophy. He was an honest and good man. Reagan on the other hand was guilty of many MANY crimes not the least of which was standing by and watching HIV decimate gay Americans but oh wait...they were just queers.
While basically I am on the same page as you, I think it's a stretch you compare the two.

[Raskolnik]

47. I'm not comparing the men, I'm comparing the aftermath of their deaths

I'm saying that the human decency I wanted conservatives to show at the passing of Wellstone isn't a one-way street.

I want to be BETTER than people at FR, and not stooping to their level is one way to do that.

[Darranar]

36. Did Paul Wellstone ever sponsor the slaughter of...

tens of thousands in Latin America?

[Raskolnik]

48. Perhaps I was unclear

I don't think you understand the point I was trying to make.

I simply think that we should take the lesson's of Senator Wellstone's death and apply them to the current situation. We gain nothing be behaving ghoulishly and celebrating the death of a pathetic old man.

[Bridget Burke]

37. Alzheimer's is a bad way to go--I'm sorry for his family.

However, when discussing Reagan's "legacy" I will not pretend. I wish he'd remained a B-actor & stayed out of politics. Whether he was behind all of what was done during his administration--or was already in the beginnings of dementia--we are stil suffering from that time.

If you loved Wellstone so much, why have you just joined DU for no other purpose than praising Reagan?

[progressivebydesign]

39. Hey.. that's a pretty mean comment to the original poster!

It takes some people a while to get to 80+ posts.. I think it's totally unfair to say that the poster came only to 'praise reagan'. I think the point was very well made. Wellstone's death was NOT celebrated by the majority of Republicans.. only the losers at FR and Lucianne's site... The original post was about having some class when someone dies... SOMEBODY loves most every single person that dies, and for that.. I'm sorry for those that are left behind. That doesn't mean I'm praising Reagan. It means I'm human, and I'm able to be empathetic to the grieving friends and family. That doesn't make me a Freeper, or a troll, or anything.

The fact that some people are unable to see the hypocrisy here in the way they're treating Reagan's death, and how they felt about the losers who celebrated Wellstone's death.. is staggering.

BTW I've been here at DU since 2001, AND I have 4000+ posts. I'm not a troll either.

[Bridget Burke]

53. The OP joined June 5th

And all his posts tell us how bad we are here at DU. Where was he when Wellstone was killed?

I have sympathy for anybody dying of Alzheimer's & for their family. In my opinion, some posts have been in poor taste. But I'm not going to lie & say anything good about "The Reagan Legacy".

[Raskolnik]

57. Go back and read what I posted.

Go and look over my posts, do you see ONE WORD of praise for Reagan or his legacy? No, you don't. So don't be dishonest and suggest it again.

I joined specifically to urge restraint and civility at a time when people WILL be looking at us. I don't think the more cruel, vindictive posts that have been made about the subject serve our purposes well at all. Do you?

Do you disagree with my original post on this thread?

[progressivebydesign]

38. Welcome.. I completely, emphatically agree with you.

I only HOPE that those posting links internationally to the vile Reagan hate-threads, will take the time to see that the majority of us have humility and class. I hope they won't judge all of us that way. Did any one of their political heroes come about and say, "let's celebrate Reagan's death"?? NO.

I never agreed with Reagan's policies. I think he deserved impeachment for the Iran/Contra affair. I couldn't have disliked his administration more (until GWB came along). BUT.. I recognize that when anyone dies, there are friends and family who love them, who will miss them. I recognize that no person is 100% good or evil. AND that them meant something to someone. For that, I am sorry, that people are grieving the loss of a fellow human being. If I ever lose that humanity, I couldn't live with myself. :grouphug:

[Raskolnik]

49. Thanks Caliphoto

Very well said. I think that is the sentiment I was trying to capture as well. Its too bad we're fighting the good fight on two fronts, huh?

[Carl Brennan]

40. Why pay respects to someone you detest?

Maybe Limbaugh had grudging respect for Wellstone, it is understandable.

If there are liberals who think Reagan was OK, naive as they are, they are entitled to their delusion.

But for those who shit bricks on Nov. 4th 1980 when he was elected, have no obligation to get all nice and cuddly because the person they detest is dead.

[crossroads]

45. Welcome to DU!

Any fan of Wellstone is a friend of mine!!! :hi:

[Carl Brennan]

46. Thanks, I've been to a number of political websites

and this is one of the best.

[Raskolnik]

51. Not paying respects to Reagan, paying respects to civility

Showing restraint and not pissing on a freshly dead man's grave is not getting "all nice and cuddly", it is simply showing human compassion for his family and loved ones.

I know what Reagan did, YOU know what Reagan did, but for the next few days restraint will serve us well in the long run.

[Cascadian]

41. While I feel sorry for the Reagan family....

I cannot lionize a man who's principles and views counter that to my own. Who's policies had hurt many and even killed people and still the effects of these policies are in existance to this very day. I am truly sorry for the family's loss but I am not going to heap praise on Reagan. I will save that for people I respect and those I care about.


John

[Raskolnik]

52. Civility is not lionization

I wouldn't dream of asking people to heap praise on a man who clearly doesn't deserve them. I am simply arguing for simple human decency. I want to be better than the people I detest, and this is one of the ways to do it.

[crossroads]

42. Wellstone was my hero too...

Hey welcome to DU! Ya aint't just here to lionize Reagan are ya? I see ya only just joined yesterday! Impressive posting record my friend!!!
:eyes:

[Raskolnik]

54. Absolutely not.

I'm here to argue for simple human civility. I know it is difficult in a situation like this, but it will serve us well in the long run.

I don't claim to have even a fraction of the graciousness and humanity that Wellstone possessed, but I have a feeling he would be arguing restraint and dignity at a time such as this. In my opinion, anyway.

(by the way...if you're a fan of Wellstone, check out the Illinois Senate candidate, Barack Obama...he is the FUTURE of the Democratic party, and I couldn't be happier)

[crossroads]

58. Thanks, I will... n/t

:dem:

[AlFrankenFan]

43. I agree with what your message is

We can be a lot better. Like you said, if Rush could somewhat restrain himself, so can we.

[Raskolnik]

56. Its not easy though, is it?

Thanks. It's difficult for me, don't get me wrong, but I know that it is the right thing to do in the long run.

[burythehatchet]

44. Houston, we have a problem

Were you orbiting the planet, with no communication, when Wellstone was killed? Limbaugh showed restraint?

Buy a vowel.

[Raskolnik]

55. Briefly, but there nonetheless

Actually I happened to be on a long car trip on the day that Wellstone died, and out of curiosity I turned Rush on to see what he was going to say. To my surprise, he simply stated that although he disagreed passionately with Wellstone, he was a man of his convictions and his family was deserving of respect at the time of his death. Of course a week later he jumped all over the memorial service, so...

My argument remains, if we can't even show the momentary restraint that a douche-bag like Limbaugh is capable of (however briefly), then what the hell good are we? I want to be better than him, and this is one way to do it.