I need help with my brother (MARINE) re- dissent,troops, war

[Room101]

Edited, I have learned ounce a Marine always a Marine.

My bother (Marine) served 7 years four of which were active now thinks people who criticize the war effort are causing harm to the troops. Last week he said, “People like Kennedy are killing our troops”

I need quotes, statements and or essays from famous patriots like Thomas Paine, Veterans and right wing politicians explaining the need for dissent in a time of war especially a war based on lies.

Some background on my brother. He is a registered Democrat who voted for Gore in 2k, Perot in 96. When the war first started he had Jingoism flowing through his veins. Through the months I have helped him change his mind and he firmly believed that Bush lied about WMD’s and needs to go. (Although he now loves Michael Savage so I’m getting worried)

He is now repeating jingoistic propaganda he hears from Savage. My brother is no policy wonk and I always refute him with rapid-fire fact punches. The other day he said “There is Al Queda in Iraq; anyone who doesn’t think there is a connection is full of shit”

I responded they flooded in after the invasion. Bush let the fundamentalist tiger out of the cage. Using your logic Tom, the United States Government is connected to Al Queda lets look at the facts.

1) Two Al Queda 911 Highjackers were living in Florida 2) They trained at US flight schools 3) They received valid US visas. Using your prescribed logic Tom, America is connected to Al Queda? He did not have an answer nor did I expect him to have one. It was clear that I got the best of him and he didn’t like it.

Tom understands the Blowback theory and really dislikes Bushes domestic policies. He is also aware and pissed off about Bush cutting Veteran and troop benefits. But he is an ex-Marine who is seeing his fellow marines being killed everyday and is easily seduced by jingoistic personalities diverting blame to others. I have heard a saying that the longer people are conned the more upset they are when they find out.

[Momof1]

1. First off---- Please don't call him an ex-Marine

That does not sit with them well. Once a Marine always a Marine. In fact my ex-boyfriend use to get really pissed off, if anyone referred to him as such.

2 quotes:

A quote from John Quincy Adams, 1821: "Wherever the standard of freedom and independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own.... She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself, beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom.... She might become the dictatress of the world; she would no longer be the ruler of her own spirit."

Theodore Roosevelt, 1918: "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."

[Room101]

3. Forgive my ignorance in Marine(Military) matters-

I will edit my post. Thank you for the Adams quote.

[Momof1]

4. Marines are just

I don't want to call them weird about it, but they are. I have no idea what kind of training my ex-boyfriend went through, but...he was a real ass about that stuff.

And he was only in for 4 yrs. Just thought it would make your conversations go easier.

[playahata1]

22. One of our good friends is a Marine in Iraq.

Chuck (we will call him that) is A BABY, 21 years old. He is like a little brother to my brother. He checks in with us every two weeks, most recently a couple of weekends ago.

According to my brother, on this most recent call, their conversation turned to the reports that all is not well in Iraq -- Abu Ghirab, the contractors aka mercenaries, the daily death counts, etc. My brother was telling Chuck what was being said in the media over here, how many Americans -- my brother included -- aren't buying any of the bullshit about Iraq. Well, Chuck got upset. He said :"I'm over here getting shot at, and you're being all unpatriotic." My brother says that he told Chuck. "I wish I could bring you back home for a week, so you can see what people REALLY think about this bullshit." They went back and forth a bit before Chuck had to go.

After Chuck got off, my brother just shook his head and said: "God, those people have got that boy so BRAINWASHED! I TOLD him what it would be like out there. They have turned him into a killing machine!"

We worry about our friend. Although, according to my brother, Chuck has always aspired to a military career (he originally wanted to go into the Air Force), he is NOT one of those gung-ho, wanna-be bad-ass, "kill 'em all and let God sort them out" types. Still, this is not the first time my brother has heard the gung-ho talk from Chuck, though Chuck more often than not has displayed flashes of clarity.

I know that some other DUers with friends and/or family in the Marines have reported that their Marines still have their heads on straight, but I have heard too many stories about the Marines who can't or don't seem to want to deprogram themselves -- if what they go through can indeed be called "brainwashing." Are my brother's and my concerns justified?

[Momof1]

29. Yes

a 21 yr old in Iraq? He will never be the same.

Leave his gung-ho momentum alone, wait till he comes home. The Marines have to get into the frame of mind to do what they do.

Send care packages.

[elfwitch]

5. I agree on this...

As far as marines are concerned there is only one EX Marine. That one person would be Lee Harvey Oswald. All other marines are FORMER marines.

FYI

[HarveyBriggs]

26. I'm sorry, I strongly disagree.

Former marine, ex-marine.

I've had it with the NEW Marine's blame-shifting cowardice. For the sake of REAL Marines, maybe it's best to call this fellow an ex-marine.

All this Semper Fi garbage didn't save close to 3,000 lives on 9/11.

Simper Fi -- perhaps, the way this Tom fellow and his Cub-Scout-Troop-rejects in the NEW Marines are acting.

Last time I did a body count, it's the civilians who have been taking the beating in this war.

Last time I heard, the bravest words yet in this war on terror were uttered by a civilian, "Let's Roll."

But your brother Tom says, "Let's roll over these rights. Let's surrender these rights that REAL MARINES bought and paid for."

Why? So his new COUNTRY CLUB Marines could have it easier than the civvies in New York City had it on 9/11.

Let me remind everybody unless your memory has failed: the Marines FAILED on 9/11.

The Army FAILED on 9/11.

The Air Force FAILED on 9/11.

The Coast Guard FAILED on 9/11.

The CIA FAILED on 9/11.

George W. Bush FAILED on 9/11.

And from the latest photos from Iraqi prisons, they still aren't doing much better.

We pay a hefty tax bill for the largest military in the world. The terrorsts didn't succeed on 9/11 because we failed to pay that bill. They succeeded because Tom's buddies screwed up-- from the President on down.

AND NOW HE AND HIS FRIENDS ARE WHINING. AND POINTING FINGERS -- AT THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN THE MOST DIEING!

How dare he whine when it's us civvies who have taken the brunt of the battle? I'm sick and tired of taking it on the chin because these losers can't do the jobs they are paid to do.

Remind your brother that in a terror war, we're the targets. And we lose every time some coward like your brother tells us to shut up. We lose every time John Ashcroft thinks he can win a few votes with a new alert.

9/11 was the greatest failure of our military in history. Why?

Any good general knows to attack the enemy at it's weakest. And George W. Bush is our very weakest. Tom, in his whining, represents that weakness. THAT is why we were attacked when we were attacked.

Like a dog who senses fear, terrorists sense weakness. They sensed it in W. They saw it in his Daddy.

And now, it's why Tom and his cowardly buddies want to blame us for their losing.

Jack Nicholson was right -- Tom and today's Marines can't handle the truth.

Bunch of whining losers.

If we Democrats want to take back this country -- all we have to do is recognize how badly the this cabal failed, and how cowardly they really are.

The first step is pointing out cowardice when we see it. In pointing fingers at a civilian populace that has taken heavier casualties than the soldiers, Tom displays the true cause of 9/11.

Harvey Briggs

[kalian]

2. Why even bother....?

I mean seriously. Once a JARHEAD, always a friggin JARHEAD. I know
that he's your brother and you would like him to come on over from
the dark side, but that just won't happen.
They cannot understand the basic premise which you are trying to
make. They cannot see that we want them to be safe.

Let him be and hope that some day the attic light bulb turns on by
itself.

[elfwitch]

7. not entirely true...

My husband was a Marine. You have never met a more progressive and tolerant man.

[kalian]

11. My best friend is a FORMER Marine.....

and he could care less whether you call him a former Marine. The ones
that go mouthing off that there is never such a thing should remain
in the service.

As for your husband being progressive and tolerant, good for him.
But I am also sure that he is in the minority.

[wildwww2]

13. I was a Marine. And I will always carry that with me. Always.

But brains have to win out over brawn. In my family anyway. Tolerance is a trait we Marines strive for. We are all one color. Marine Corps Green.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[Room101]

8. There is hope with him ......

He understands BLOWBACK and thinks we should not be the worlds police men. Did you read his background?

[kalian]

10. He understands blowback....

but he also understand annihilation...ergo, kill them all off, that
will solve the problem.
Their basic premise is that we're "tying their hands" and they can't
"kill the enemy"...

[Room101]

12. You hit it right on the nose, Kalian

He does have the kill them all sentiment. I won't repeat his exact words but that is his exact sentiment. He does at times make an effort to be open minded so I have to get him when the wind is just right.

[Career Prole]

15. Did he have that sentiment before he started listening to Savage? n/t

[stanwyck]

14. My son is a Marine

currently in Iraq. He is a proud liberal. You're being narrow-minded on this subject.

[billybob537]

6. Bush killed over 800 troops

For what? so Iraqis can hate us even more. So terrorist have a new reason to attack us. So Cheney can make 20 million a year on his Haliburton stock.

[cestmoi]

9. Soldiers need illusions to justify their friends deaths.

The only thing soldiers have to justify the deaths of comrades is the belief in their cause. If the cause is based on a lie the deaths are unsupportable and very difficult to accept.

People indeed are more upset when cherished illusions are shattered which is why there is denial. If you think about it denial is one of the strangest things because compelling factual evidence is brushed aside. People go into denial because the need to protect illusions is so powerful.

As for your question check out http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

War is a Racket was written by decorated Major General Smedley of the Marines.

A quote from it "For a great many years, as a soldier, I had a suspicion that war was a racket; not until I retired to civil life did I fully realize it. Now that I see the international war clouds gathering, as they are today, I must face it and speak out."

[JHB]

16. How about T.R., Abe Lincoln, etc.?

"The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else."

---Theodore Roosevelt in the Kansas City Star, May 7, 1918


Here's part of a Slate article you might use to help search for quotes and context:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2080735
Dissenters spoke out against virtually every subsequent conflict. The humiliating defeats of the War of 1812 made that fight so unpopular that the states of New England considered seceding from the Union. A generation later, many Americans viewed the Mexican-American War (not unreasonably) as an act of naked U.S. aggression. In 1848, shortly after the war's conclusion, Congress censured President James Polk for "unnecessarily and unconstitutionally" commencing hostilities. Supporting the rebuke was Illinois Rep. Abraham Lincoln, who attacked Polk as "a bewildered, confounded and miserably perplexed man."

(hmmm, maybe * has a competitor for Worst President Ever--JHB)

Popular support for the Spanish-American War waned as the relatively easy fight for a free (i.e., pro-American) Cuba gave way to a more controversial program of wresting away Spain's other colonies, particularly the Philippines. When President William McKinley opted to annex the Philippines—he wanted, he said, "to educate the Filipinos and uplift and Christianize them"—a motley array of critics from Andrew Carnegie to Mark Twain objected. William Jennings Bryan used his dissenting stance as the centerpiece of his (losing) 1900 presidential campaign.

During World War I, critics excoriated Woodrow Wilson—who had run for re-election in 1916 on the slogan "He kept us out of war"—for entangling America in a bloody European conflict. Political leaders from Wisconsin Sen. Robert LaFollette to Socialist Party presidential candidate Eugene V. Debs spoke out. ("I had supposed until recently that it was the duty of senators … to vote and act according to their convictions," LaFollette sardonically told the Senate. "Quite another doctrine has recently been promulgated by certain newspapers … and that is the doctrine of 'standing back of the president' without inquiring whether the president is right or wrong.") The majority of Congress, however, passed a series of repressive laws that let the government imprison or deport thousands of critics of the president, including Debs. Vigilante groups ostracized, assaulted, and even lynched countless more.

In fact, the only major war that lacked an organized bloc of dissenters was World War II: Pearl Harbor had made an isolationist stance untenable, and as Americans learned more and more about Nazi Germany, most anti-war activists decided the defeat of fascism was worth fighting for. (Some rejoined peace movements, such as the nascent anti-nuclear effort, at the war's end.) Still, even during the "Good War," critics persisted. On the left, pacifists served prison time for refusing to fight or perform compulsory alternative service. On the right, congressional Republicans launched an investigation of Pearl Harbor, with some implying that Franklin Roosevelt had foreknowledge of the attack.

[whosinpower]

17. Well.....

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed....."
Ike Eisenhower, April, 1953(seems fitting given all the D-Day stuff in the media)

Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official...
Theodore Roosevelt

War creates peace like hate creates love.
David L. Wilson

We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. When the loyal opposition dies, I think the soul of America dies with it.
Edward R. Murrow

Our country is now geared to an arms economy bred in an artificually induced psychosis of war hysteria and an incessant propaganda of fear.
~General Douglas MacArthur

Violence is the first refuge of the incompetent.
~Issac Asimov

Peace is constructed, not fought for.
~Brent Davis

We will not learn how to live together in peace by killing each other's children.
~Jimmy Carter

I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use our power the greater it will be.
~Thomas Jefferson

When go to war, what they want is to impose on their enemies the victor's will and call it peace.
~St. Augustine, "The City of God"

The cry has been that when war is declared, all opposition should be hushed. A sentiment more unworthy of a free country could hardly be propagated.
~William Ellery Channing

A man who says that no patriot should attack the war until it is over...is saying no good son should warn his mother of a cliff until she has fallen.
~G. K. Chesterton


Criticism in a time of war is essential to the maintenance of any kind of democratic government.
~Sen. Robert Taft, (R) Ohio

In all history there is no war which was not hatched by the governments, the governments alone, independent of the interests of the people...
~Leo Tolstoy


What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty and democracy?

~Mahatma Ghandi

[neuvocat]

18. Albert Einstein

(although he might not exactly be inspired by this)

"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, scince for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despiceable an ignoreable war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder." -- Albert Einstein

http://www.humboldt1.com/~gralsto/einstein/quotes.html

[kalian]

20. Great post....

right on the dot.

[Room101]

27. Thanks everyone - I was away from my computer for a while

DU :yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock:

[whosinpower]

19. My favorite....

We know more about war than we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living.

~General Omar N. Bradley

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

21. If he is that easily influenced, I am pessimistic about keeping him on

"our" side even if you can get him firmly there. I mean, he recognizes Bush's policies are bad, but listens to Michael Savage? C'MON!

[immoderate]

23. Isn't it Bush that's getting our Marines killed?

not Kennedy.

--IMM

[HarveyBriggs]

24. Bush & Rummy are killing troops ...

Tell him the brass knows it.

And to quit buying this bullshit from the draft-dodging, coward in chief.

Tell him, it's cowardly and weak for Bush and Rummy to hide their administration's failures underneath the bodies of dead soldiers.

We wouldn't be in Iraq if Bush hadn't mislead us.

And even then, we wouldn't have been in this mess had Bush listened to his Generals.

But he didn't.

So of course, soldiers are dieing. After all the C-I-C is incompetent. And worse -- he's so cowardly not only can't he face fire in combat, he can't face the firestorm of criticism at home -- so he sends that the troops way as well.

Bush doesn't care about those who serve in combat -- he despises them. He mistakenly thinks he is better than them. Look how he'a treated McCain, Cleland, Zinni, Powell, Clark, Schwartzkopf, Kerry. Look what he's doing to vets.

Give your last full measure of devotion, and Bush doesn't even want your name called on TV, or a photo of your proud, flag-draped casket in the paper. And the reason is because he is embarrassed by these acts of courage. He can't fathom it.

Your buddy is a Marine. He knows damn well the price soldiers pay when they underestimate an enemy. And that's just one of many mistakes Bush & Rummy have made.

The real killers are suckers like him who keep their mouths shut.

Anybody can die for a lie -- doesn't matter if you're on death row in Illinois or a Marine in Baghdad.

But real heroes -- real heroes stand up for what is right.

Harvey Briggs

[Touchdown]

25. You mentioned Savage. I have a perfect gift idea!

Sirius Satellite radio. Air America is on it, and he can be anywhere in the country annd still hear it. He'll be in love with Randi within a week.

I have no advice for how to deal with your brother in the mean time, sometimes people have to get through their fog themselves. Keep talking to him, and engage him...let him vent without saying "You're full of shit", just pose your thoughts into questions.

Turning people requires planting seeds. Nothing is instantaneous. :hi:

[msmcghee]

28. Your brother volunteered for the service in a country . .

. . that guarantees free speech and the right of dissent to its citizens.

For that reason it is very important that foreign policy, especially military policy, is carried out fairly and honestly, and is based on true American values. Placing the military in danger can only be done by a president who is trusted by and is willing to earn the support of a large majority of citizens. That's just the way our system works. If a president ignores that reality - there will be a disaster. Lives will be lost unnecessarily. People will lose trust in their government.

That's why Gore didn't want to be president under any kind of cloud. Unfortunately, the RW simply saw that as a golden opportunity to grab power. Concepts of trust and honor and responsibility to the office are beyond them. Their only respect is to the power that public office gives them.

And now we, and especially the military, are paying the price for that. It is not the fault of liberals who are questioning Bush's actions. It is the fault of the RW for pursuing a war that does not even have the support of half of the people.

They knew going in that if they leveled with us we'd say no way do we want to attack a country that's no danger to us and hasn't attacked us. So they lied. And now, with over 800 dead American soldiers, they expect us to overlook that little inconvenience on the way to war - and support them because soldiers lives are at risk.

It is the RW who is un-American - as are all those who support a corrupt president who lied us into a war - and unfortunately, that includes your brother.

[Michael Costello]

30. My brother was in Iraq

My brother was in Iraq. I just don't discuss it with him really. He was in the reserves and was called up to go.

I look at this as simply a continuation of the cold war. We had the Cold War for decades, and now a decade later we have a permanent "war on terrorism". I think the US has a need to be in a permanent state of war, sort of how Orwell describes in 1984 the need to permanently be in a state of war. There always needs to be soldiers in foreign fields so that people can say everyone at home has to do as they're told or otherwise the boys the government put halfway around the world will be in danger. This just seems to be the nature of the system to me.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

34. Sadly you appear to be right. At least when Repubs are in power. n/t

[playahata1]

31. KICK!

n/t

[playahata1]

32. KICK

N/T

[ElsewheresDaughter]

33. michael moore's site has plenty of letters from soldiers in Iraq on this

[Jacobin]

35. Rather than blaming Kennedy who courageously

spoke against granting Smirk the right to invade and conquer a country that did not attack us and was not going to attack us, I suggest he point his outrage at the homocidal maniac who got us into this goddamned mess: George Fucking Bush.

[Mz Pip]

36. Anthony Zinni

(and I'm paraphrasing here) said that all the talk about not criticizing during a war is not valid. Then things are going wrong it's our duty to point it out. He used the comparison to knowing that the troops had faulty armaments. One would be obligated to speak up. Same goes for faulty planning. THat can be just as lethal to our troops.

MzPip
:dem:

[RamboLiberal]

37. Link to Zinni - and you can find more just Google Zinni

"In the lead-up to the Iraq war and its later conduct, I saw, at a minimum, true dereliction, negligence, and irresponsibility; at worst, lying, incompetence and corruption. False rationales as a justification; a flawed strategy; lack of planning; the unnecessary alienation of our allies; the underestimation of the task; the unnecessary distraction from real threats; and the unbearable strain dumped on our overstretched military, all of these caused me to speak out. I did it before the war as a caution, and as an attempt to voice concern over situations I knew would be dangers, where the outcomes would likely mean real harm to our nation's interests. I was called a traitor and turncoat by Pentagon officials. The personal attacks are painful … but the photos of the casualties I see every day in the papers and on TV convince me not to shrink from the obligation to speak the truth."

http://archive.salon.com/politics/war_room/2004/05/24/zinni/

[bobbieinok]

38. there's a list of all the repub anti-Clinton pro- troops quotes

maybe someone here has a link?

added - these were during Kosovo