Denial from My Local Wingnut

[UTUSN]

It's been a busy RAYGUN day, what with all the HITCHENS and all stuff all day long, and I dutifully forwarded lots o'links to my local radio talkshow wingnut. Here are the top 3 links and HIS TESTY REPLIES:

************QUOTE******
(1) http://dominantlee.tripod.com/
.... I, Leola McConnell, do affirm that from the year 1998 until May 2003, I was PNAC member and radio talk show host William J. Bennett's Domina. ....


(2) Reagan "I hope you're all Republicans" story is bullshit

My parents lived in DC when Reagan was shot, and my mother was good friends with an anesthesiologist at the hospital Reagan was taken to. My mother's friend was working on the President when he came in, and was paying extremely close attention to Reagan when the alleged joke was made. Apparently the joke never happened. He said that Reagan was in a lot of pain and was very scared, and was definitely not saying anything, let alone joking with the doctors. He was sitting very close to Reagan's head, as an anesthesiologist is supposed to do, so he would definitely have heard even the faintest words from him mouth. After the media picked up the fabricated joke story, the doctor considered coming out with the truth, but decided against it. I've heard the story parroted back by numerous talking heads this weekend, and it makes me sick every time to know that one of the Right's favorite stories about their favorite President is an outright lie. Spread the word...


(3) It all starts with a little lie. People don't question it and it becomes conventional wisdom for those that wish to believe it. I'm talking about today's Republican Party.

They said the country was going to hell in a handbasket because of the terrible inflation of Jimmy Carter near the end of his term. It was bad but it was not the end of the world. It was mostly created from high energy prices. But the Repubs were able to exaggerate it to a point that they created their own "misery index". But, no one ever called them on it.

Then they said if we cut taxes to the bone, the economy will grow like crazy. We will have more revenues coming in than ever before. Sure enough, after they raised Social Security taxes and cut all the tax breaks for working and middle class people, revenues increased. But we had the largest deficits in the history of our nation. We went from the world's largest creditor nation to the world's largest debtor nation. But, no one called them on it. It became conventional wisdom that they had the right formula.

Then, they said you-know-who won the Cold War. We outspent the Soviets and they collapsed. Yes, they collapsed but not because they got in a defense spending war with us. In fact, and the CIA reported after the collapse, the Soviet spending on defense had remained flat during the period of the '80s. We spent ourselves into huge deficits with massive military spending alongside the huge taxcuts. Still, no one called them on it. The little lie grew and grew.

Along comes a non-curious leader in 2000, with a Republican majority in Congress and every branch of government under their control. They bring out their big lie and present it to the people again, as if it was written in stone. The way to get the economy growing is to cut taxes, they said. Of course, when they said that, the unemployment rate was 4.1% - a record low for modern times. The lie exploded in their faces. Yet, no one called them on it. It must have been some other reason for the downturn and the huge deficits. It couldn't be the big lie that the Repubs have adopted as their conventional wisdom. It must be something else?

********UNQUOTE*******

(1) Why does it sound true to you? What has Bennett ever done or said that make you think he is having an affair with a dominatrix?

(2) Everyone is so eager to believing stories that debunk other storties. Why should we believe this guy, whoever he is?

(3) What big lie, exactly, are you talking about?

[RoyGBiv]

1. Obviously I don't know one way or the other...

I wasn't there.

But, I have seen the individual to whom Reagan said "I hope you're a Republican" say that this actually happened. He further said that he said something like "today we're all Republicans" but that he aws actually a Democrat. He didn't want to upset a man who was potentially bleeding to death.

[UTUSN]

4. So He Was a Doctor?

You have "seen the individual"? If it happened, why wouldn't this doctor/individual come forth with his name on himself?

The other type of these Reverand WEEMS stories is from Tweety: Tweety sez that the difference between Liberals and RAYGUN are that Libs "claim" to love humanity IN THE ABSTRACT, but they (we) HATE individuals (doing "charity" for persons in our face), while bastards like RAYGUN are JUST SO CHARITABLE by giving alms to INDIVIDUALS IN THEIR FACE. He constantly sez that RAYGUN would give CASH to hard-luck people who would approach him.


Um, what are the names, dates, time of the incidents Tweety CLAIMS to broadcast?

The kicker is that, while RAYGUN supposedly did INDIVIDUAL charity, what about the PROGRAMS RAYGUN decimated that DELETERIOUSLY AFFECTED MILLIONS of people---------------ehhhhh?

[RoyGBiv]

5. I didn't think this was a controversial topic...

I was not paying that close attention. His name was given. I used the phrase "this individual" because I simply don't remember it. I've tried to avoid most Reagan stuff these past few days, so I haven't taken notes.

[UTUSN]

6. O.K., So How About Specifics

like, where did you "see" him, when? And some insight into the depth of your belief?

[RoyGBiv]

7. Your condescension is noted...

It was a documentary, perhaps on Discovery, perhaps on Lifetime, perhaps some other channel ... I'm not sure which. I did a lot of flipping over the last few days, and all of them seemed to have something about Reagan. I was trying to focus on D-Day stuff, but it all got jumbled together.

The documentary covered the assassination attempt against Reagan. There were interviews with people involved in the incident, including the Secret Service agent who was injured, James Brady, and several people who treated him at the hospital. One of those was a person who said Reagan said this to him. He noted his response and why he gave that response.

"Depth of my belief?" I have no idea what you're talking about. I can think of no reason why this person would make up such a tale, especially given that he made clear he was not a Republican, had voted for Carter, and most likely wouldn't vote for Reagan for any reason because, as he said, he was a Democrat.

[UTUSN]

8. Well, I Don't Condescend to DUers

I asked for specifics.

[RoyGBiv]

10. Which, I guess, is why you put "see" in quotes...

Perhaps suggesting I had not "seen" what I said I saw.

Perhaps not.

[UTUSN]

12. Well, "see" Means What--------

you WITNESSED with your EYES? Or you "saw" on t.v.? I'm not calling you a liar, am asking what or HOW you "saw".

[UTUSN]

11. Further Specifics, Such as

"...Reagan said this to him. He noted his response and why he gave that response."

He (who) noted his (whose) response ?

why he(who) gave that response.


-------so, the (doctor?) noted (RAYGUN's?) response?


--------and what was the WHY about (whatever) response?

Now I really *do* think I'm condescending.

[RoyGBiv]

13. You want a grammar battle?

I am fully armed. :)

[UTUSN]

15. Just Want to Know What You're Talking About and

what your beef is.

[RoyGBiv]

9. Here are some specifics...

From a site that actually seeks to debunk urban legends.

His name was Dr. Joseph Giordano. The apparent controversy is over the exact phrasing, which Reagan apparently later mutated into a collective statement to try to make the comment a universal appeal. According to this article, and what I saw, the statement was made in the singular, directed toward one individual.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/weekly/aa120197b.htm

OnEdit: Fixed Link

[UTUSN]

14. I Get This Error from the Link:

******QUOTE*******
Proxy Error
The proxy server received an invalid response from an upstream server.
The proxy server could not handle the request GET /webapps/whereabout/urbanlegends.about.com/library/weekly/aa120197b.html.

Reason: Could not connect to remote machine: Operation timed out

----------------------

Apache/1.3.19 Server at urbanlegends.about.com Port 80

*********UNQUOTE***********

[RoyGBiv]

16. Try it now...

I inappropriately added an "l" to the end.

[UTUSN]

17. This Is "Interpretive" Analysis, Not Evidentiary

(Now I really *am* condescending. And I'm checking out to dreamland now. I really don't enjoy "debating" anyway.)

*******QUOTE*******

None of the above are firsthand accounts, of course. And although we might hope and expect to find more agreement in the testimonies of those who were actually present in the operating room, alas, we do not. ....

On the question of reliability, let's be frank. The surgeon, Giordano, was lucid, focused and in command when this incident took place; President Reagan, by all accounts including his own, was weak and groggy. Giordano told the story less than a week after it happened; Reagan didn't write it down until many years later. The odds favor Giordano. ....

As a set-up for Giordano's response, Reagan's line works far better when phrased in the singular and addressed to head surgeon alone. Indeed, the whole couplet as rendered by the president evinces the polish that only an expert storyteller could give it, while Giordano's version comes across as clunky, but, well... real. ....

********UNQUOTE*******

[RoyGBiv]

18. Good selective editing...

None of the "above" are firsthand accounts, and these accounts were in reference to the exact wording, not the incident itself. Please take special note of the following, which you conveniently snipped from the beginning of your quote: "That he looked up at his surgeons at that moment and jokingly expressed the hope they were all Republicans has been confirmed by eyewitnesses and is pretty much beyond doubt."

The author then talks about the wording, lists a few variations of the quote, offers that they are not first hand accounts because, obviously, they aren't, and then he mentions Giordano, which isn't, of course, listed in the "above" and actually is a first-hand account.

Believe what you want. I've made all the input into this I care to. You're floating upstream on some odd crusade I don't understand.

[UTUSN]

20. Your Source

is not: "I, so-&-so, swear that I was present on date/time, and the following persons were present in the room. RAYGUN said THIS. I said THIS. These (NAMED) persons heard this and their statements to this effect are attached HERE."

I cited what somebody posted here. You disputed it, vaguely. I asked for specifics. It turned into this. I choose to believe what a DUer posted here over what you have presented. Got more? I'm going to bed now.

[RoyGBiv]

23. Oh please...

And "my mother's good friend" does fall along the lines of "I, so-and-so swear that I was ..."

[UTUSN]

19. Besides Which,, the Quotation I Cited in the Original Post

was from a DUer. I have no idea as to the veracity of it. But I would lean heavily towards believing a true DUer, like the once I quoted from, if there were nothing to the contrary.

So, O.K., 'night'all.

[RoyGBiv]

21. So, I'm not a true DUer?

Is this your point?

[UTUSN]

22. Those I Feel Comfortable with Don't Give Me This Amount

of grief.

[RoyGBiv]

24. Backing up...

As I said, I thought I was trying to help. That one particular piece you quoted conflicted with something I had seen recently, and I said so. Your responses have all been, in my perception, condescending.

Now, you could simply have said that my comments didn't fit with your knowledge, asked me, plainly, where I saw this, or something along these lines. But, beyond your first response, which I answered plainly and honestly, you did not do that. You challenged me, so I accepted the challenge.

I'm sorry you feel as though I've given you grief. I was not aware that simple disagreement would be a source of such consternation.

[UTUSN]

2. Kick for the Indignity of Kicking After Working on a Thread n/t

[sadiesworld]

3. Thanks for posting this.

I think the SS theft is one of the biggest issues of the past 30 years but it seems as if no one really gives a damn (odd in that it affects most everyone).