Teen to get up to 15 years and $1000 for robbery in Vermont

[VoteClark]

Just kidding! His name is Paul Dean, son of Former Governor Howard Dean. He would have gotten up to 15 years and a $1000 fine if he was some Black kid from New York. But if you are a rich kid of the Governor, you don't even face the judge. Gee, thanks Pa! Your just so swell, this is best birthday I ever had. To bad your genes for brains were not passed on instead.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33937



:kick:
J4Clark

[arcos]

1. Another stupid bashing thread...

that we should let sink.

[sujan]

2. ....

Your man clark is a war criminal for all I care.

[VoteClark]

3. Truman must also be a war criminal

He dropped to nuclear bombs on two cities full of little babies and women.

:kick:
J4Clark

[sujan]

6. yes he was

where did you get the idea that I worshipped truman?

[redeye]

7. Falseman indeed was a war criminal...

...in fact, he perpetrated the world's two largest terrorist attacks to date, next to which 9/11 pales.

[treepig]

9. who is this guy you call trueman?

hint: if you're going to post about him on multiple threads, maybe learning to spell his name correctly will add to your credibility?

[bearfartinthewoods]

4. do you know that the one new proposed rule that got the most support

was the one about truth in subject titles?

seems like most of us think 'just kidding' about the title is a waste of our time.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

5. But this is Vermont

I read the article and it says that the teens involved had no prior criminal record. They will go before a civilian review board and the board will decide their punishment. And then they have to walk the straight and narrow or else.

This case is similar to what happened to one of my nephews when he was a teen. (No, his parents aren't rich or influential). He broke curfew to go to a convenience store with a friend. While there, the friend shoplifted, and both were picked up. The cops implied that my nephew was a lookout. He was sentenced to counselling, which worked wonders. He's now in his late twenties, married and with a family, and hasn't gotten so much as a traffic ticket since.

I decry any "justice" system that would automatically put a person on trial for a small offense just because of their ethnicity. But as I read the Vermont law as described in the article, this type of sentencing is available to any teen who has a clean record. And, knowing teens, the public embarressment involved will be a deterrant to further crimes.

[VoteClark]

8. Big Difference

First, shoplifting is not a felony.

Second, he didn't break into the store

Third, he didn't assist in taking any real action, he didn't carry the goods so to speak.

Had he, he should face the same penality as a tenth time criminal.

Treating someone differently because of a prior crime, is charging them twice for the crime.

You rob once, you do the time. You rob twice, you do twice the time. You rob three times, you do three times the time.

To do otherwise, is to imply that you are guilty because of another unrelated crime.

:kick:
J4Clark

[VermontDem2004]

20. Tell me one state that doesn't increase

the penalty for multiple offenses?

[IndianaGreen]

27. I gather from your posts that you support mandatory sentencing

which have been responsible for our jails to be full with non-violent offenders most of which from low income families.

I hope that your candidate Clark is not endorsing the rightwing's much beloved mandatory sentencing, or Ashcroft keeping tabs of "soft on crime" judges.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

10. Damn...

Are you kidding me? 15 years is the maximum sentence for burglary? Damn that is harsh. But figure that beside the $1000 dollar fine! $1000? Is that not strange? 15 years and a $1000 dollars?

I mean 1 year and $1000 would seem pretty sensible, or 15 years and $15,000 dollars, but harsh on the time to be served while lenient on the fine to be paid seems downright weird!

You Americans constantly surprise me...

[clar]

11. Wrong

Paul Dean was treated in a manner consistent with VT law. I'm a Vermonter. I've been involved with Diversion on a local admin level. It's a great and effective community run and based program. I'm proud of it. Race and social status had zip to do with Paul Dean being put in this program. Had he received anything but Diversion, I would have been shocked. This program is not just a slap on the wrist. It's thoughtful and it works. Try again. I'm sure you will.

[VoteClark]

13. Try reading the article or were you educated under the Dean Administration

[RogueTrooper]

12. Classy

Quoting WorldNeyDaily and going after a candidate's family member.

And please, do not play the innocent and say "This is what the opposition is saying...".

Scummy, dude, very, very scummy.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RogueTrooper]

15. Would you care to justify your remark

"Dean gives his family preferential treatment".

Seeing as Paul Dean was treated no differently from any other tean in Vermont I cannot see how this would be the case.

[clar]

17. What about this is difficult to understand?

Paul Dean did not receive preferential treatment in this case because of his family connections. That's precisely what I explained in my first post. I'm not even going to bother rising to the bait about your perception (based on nothing but spite) regarding my intelligence. I refuse to sink into personal attack mode. It's just not necessary. Sure I have an interest in Dean. I'm also enthusiastic about Edwards and Kerry. As far as Clark goes, I've been impressed by his appearances on MTP etc. I do think that he waited too long to get in. 2003 is not 1991.
So don't toss that meme out. I wouldn't be shocked, BTW, if Clark chose not to run. We'll see. And here's a bit of advice. Presumably, we all have the same objective; removing Bushco from the WH. It would behoove you to remember that and cease and desist from your, umm, unappealing tactics.

[VoteClark]

25. Your right

I apologize for attacking you personally. Dean supporters do that all the time, and I decided to bite back.

What you don't understand is that in Vermont, the law states that a person that commites a crime, such as Paul's, is to be sentenced up to 15 years and a $1000 fine.

Paul did not get that sentence, or even close. He got two years probation and community service.

You are trying to say that the majority of people in Vermont that commit burglary get the same sentence.

I challenge you to find a seperate case where someone commits a burglary, and gets the same penalty as Paul Dean.

Also, remember, Paul had a lawyer, paid for by Daddy. Now, how many poor Black kids have a lawyer paid for by Daddy?

:kick:
J4Clark

[VermontDem2004]

28. Can you give me an example of Dean supporters attacking your personally?

I see you do it all the time to Dean supporters. For example, you called one a liar and a loser for backing Dean.

[VoteClark]

41. Not anymore

But email Unfrigginreal. He has attacked he at least 6 or 7 times. I have him on ignor too. He never repondes to the question, just attacks. Also Rosebud.

:kick:
J4Clark

[clar]

50. Thanks for the apology

Do you live in Vermont? I attempted to explain that Diversion is a program for first time non-violent offenders. The program I was affiliated with was located in an extremely rural county about two hours from Burlington in Northern Vermont, one of the poorest counties in the state. Most of the folks who entered the program were from economically disadvantaged backgrounds and were represented by the PD, an extremely good attny., and a good guy who always fights for his clients. I recall only one black kid, but that's because this is an overwhelming white part of a pretty white state. That was some years ago and there's been a slow but study uptick in diversity since that time. I understand that you really loathe Dean, but this is about Vermont's criminal justice system and whether it was equitably applied in this case. It was. And no offence, but it appears that my knowledge on this subject is superior to yours.

[Dhalgren]

62. I am not currently a Dean supporter,

and I have read the article you posted. There is nothing in that article that indicates any special treatment for Dean's son. The article says plainly that this is the procedure in VT for handling this type of crime.

There are many ways to deal with opposing a candidate. You might even try debating that candidate's stand on some issue. But to try and make something out of nothing dealing with an unfortunate family matter is "republican-dark" and does not reflect well on your own candidate.

[searchingforlight]

16. Several people have tried to explain Vermont law to you.

This boy did not get preferential treatment.

What are you mad about? Are you mad that a father and a mother went to court and stood with their son while he received what the law demanded?

You obviously hate Dean. Fine. If he is nominated, don't vote for him. Vote for the guy whose father really did get him out of every jam and scrape he ever got into. Vote for the guy who has never really held a job he earned his entire life.

If, however, your candidate is nominated, I will vote for him because I can tell an apple from an orange any day.

[VoteClark]

19. So what is the 15 year and $1000 fine put on books for????

Think about that. You are saying that the law is there but nobody gets what the law says? Explain. Further, show how many people in Vermont get only 2 years probation and community service for burglery?

:kick:
J4Clark

[VermontDem2004]

22. I can't show you how many people in Vermont

get only 2 years probation and community service, but he is a juvenile who never committed a crime before. I know in a Juvenile who got charged with assualt with a deadly weapon in this state(Also, not a son of a Governor). He got 3 months of community service and his driving license revoked till he turned 18. Now, would you prefer Howard Dean's son to get 15 years in maximum security prison and a $1,000 dollar? Is that how much you dislike Dean?

[Dhalgren]

64. I understood the 15 year sentence

as the "maximum" sentence. Why would you want to give a 17 year old with no priors the maximum sentence? I doubt that your hypothetical "black kid" with the same record, under the same circumstances would receive the maximum, even here in the Amerikan Empire.

[VermontDem2004]

18. I think you are overly exageratting

No black kid would of got 15 years and a 1,000 dollar fine for taking liqour bottles from a country club. I really do think he would of got maybe more hours of community service and possibly a larger fine if it was a first time offense. My black neighbor got 3 months of probation and $1500 fine for being caught with a sack of marijuana and he is an adult, not a juvenile.

[VoteClark]

21. Geez, don't you read???

It was not the booze that was the problem. They broke into a building, stole the stuff, and tried to drive away. It is the breaking an entering that is the major crime. I don't care if Bush's kids, I mean, Dean's kids drink all day.

The law in Vermont says that a person who breaks and burglerizes a building, and steals, and attempts to drive off gets up to 15 years in jail and up to $1000 fines. That is the law, that is what it says. Period!


:kick:
J4Clark

[RogueTrooper]

23. He did not break into the building

Paul Dean sat in the car during the whole escapade. As it happens, none of the perps broke into the building. The storage room was on the outside of the buildings.

There was not attempt to drive off. The police stopped at the parked car and went over the question the driver. That was when the matter was brought to a close.

I think you should check your facts before you come to this message board to smear a Democrat through his son.

[VermontDem2004]

26. Is that what really happen?

if so, then VoteClark is REALLY making a huge deal out of it. I wonder what would happen if Clark's son got into trouble?(I don't know if Clark has kids or not)

[VoteClark]

29. Give me a break, really!

If someone is about to commit a crime, but stop in the middle of the act by a police officer, they are not guilty. Please!:silly:

And in case you had any since at all, it is NOT about Paul, it is about the preferential treatment his son is getting.

If you want really low, you should see some Dean supporters that were making fun of disabled veteran for being shot. That is sick and low.
Dean's days are numbered.

:kick:
J4Clark

[VermontDem2004]

31. sigh

If you want really low, you should see some Dean supporters that were making fun of disabled veteran for being shot. That is sick and low.
Dean's days are numbered.

I would really love an example of this.

[VoteClark]

37. Ask LiberalNurse.

I have her on ignore after that. She can tell you all about it.

I think it is under one of the Clark posts.


:kick:
J4Clark

[pruner]

35. let me be the first to tell you…

to shut the fuck up already.

why don't you read the article you're quoting.

"None of the five teen-agers will actually appear before a judge, a typical scenario for young people who have no criminal record, Paul Dean's attorney told AP."

[RogueTrooper]

36. I was not saying they were not guilty

but that the crime was not quite a salacious as you were implying. Paul Dean recieved fair treatment. The sort of treatment that we, in the Dean campaign, would like to see for all young offenders.

And where is the proof, regarding the disabled veteran, be?

People have been underestimating the politcal skills of Howard Dean for the last 10+ years. He has never lost yet.

[ET Awful]

38. Don't know much about the law do you?

Guess what . . . that 15 year/$1000 is a MAXIMUM sentence. Normally used for cases where someone is physically INSIDE the building hauling out large quantities of extremely valuable merchandise (think jewelry, stereos, etc.). Stealing alchol would not qualify for a maximum penalty ANYWHERE. Especially for a first time offender who was not actually inside the building, but was waiting in the car.

Based on your support of the use of nuclear weapons, and your constant bashing of a respectable candidate for the simple fact you don't like him, I'm beginning to think that you are here not to support Clark, and not to further legitimate debate, but simply to troll for trouble. I'm getting the feeling you're just a Freeper in disguise here to cause disruption.

[VermontDem2004]

24. I said he stole liqour from a country club, don't you read?

I don't know what the law is, but in the law, there is always the maximum penalty and minimum penalty, and also a penalty for repeat offenses. People very rarely get charged with the maximum sentence for first time offenses. I would like for you to show me how many 17 year olds get 15 years and the fine for breaking into a country club and taking liquor. I know a kid from this state who has 7 Felonies on his record, you may not believe me. But he done things from stolen golf carts, breaking into houses etc. And HE never got 15 years and he done things 6 times worse then what Howard Dean's son did.

[VoteClark]

32. OK, I will go break in the records of Juvy hall!

Another no brainer. Obviously I can't show you the records of someone under the age of 18. They are sealed like Dean's records while Governor. If you really want them, go ask Paul Dean, he knows how get into sealed buildings, oh wait, sorry he doesn't, he got caught.


:kick:
J4Clark

[VermontDem2004]

34. Maybe I should you use the same stupid ass response you did

because you did type this
Further, show how many people in Vermont get only 2 years probation and community service for burglery?

[mrbill]

30. key words here - "gets up to"

nobody ever gets the max on their first time brush with the law.

probation and deferred adjudication is standard operating procedure even in texas.

this is a petty bullshit offense. stupid teenagers.

this is a chickenshit issue.

[VoteClark]

33. Do they at least face a judge?

He isn't even facing a judge. How many people don't face a judge for burglary?

:kick:
J4Clark

[RogueTrooper]

40. If you are a teenager

and a first time offender in Vermont: Most people would not see a judge.

[VoteClark]

42. Who started that program?

[RogueTrooper]

45. One of this country's most enlightened govenors

and the next President of the United States: Dr. Howard Dean.

[VoteClark]

49. So you admit it was Dean that got him off the hook?

[VermontDem2004]

55. Off the hook?

Btw, I am looking for info on how the program started, but from the links I see, It has been effective since the late 90's. So Paul Dean is clearly not the only kid who benefits from this system.

[RogueTrooper]

63. No

The program came into being years ago, when Dean was still govenor. One of the Vermonters can give you the exact date but I believe it was in the mid-nineties.

As this happened after Dr. Dean had left office, it would be a little difficult for Dean to rush it through the Vermont legislature. Would it not.

The fact that Paul Dean is being disciplined by a program is father created is a coincidence. But as Howard Dean was govenor of Vermont for most of the nineties hardly a surprise.

[mrbill]

43. my little town and petty ass teenage offenses,,,,,,

you just pay the clerk at the city hall the fine and talk to the secretary lady about any conditions like picking up trash on the highway on saturday.

all you need from the judge is his signature. on city offenses you don't even need a lawyer, those come later in county court.

on edit: spelling.

[VoteClark]

47. What?

If you commit burglary you just pay a fine in your town? What town is this? What do they do for murder, just a slap on the wrist and 10 hours community service?


:kick:
J4Clark

[mrbill]

58. a little town in north texas

if you are under 21, it's a different system from the adult program.

murder usually gets about 40 years, no death penalty cases get.

interesting case coming up involving the justice of the peace's daughter and a manslaughter charge. she went into the trailor and got the gun, that seems a bit premeditiated. she's out on $30,000 bail while another guy held on a bogus solilitation of capital murder charge has a $2 million bail.

[VermontDem2004]

48. A lot like it is over here

in Arizona

[VermontDem2004]

53. Sen. Patrick LeahySecures Funds To Help Vermont’s Local Court Diversion Pr

Sen. Patrick Leahy today announced that Vermont has garnered a new federal grant of $200,000 to help local court diversion programs cope with rising workloads in combating underage drinking.

The funds come from the Justice Department’s Juvenile Justice and Delinquency discretionary grant program. Leahy reserved the funds for Vermont in this year’s appropriations bill for the department. Leahy is a senior member of the Appropriations Committee, which wrote the bill, and he is the Democratic leader of the Judiciary Committee, which created the grant program. The agency today notified Leahy that it is releasing the funds to the Vermont Association of Court Diversion Programs.

“These funds will help Vermont tackle underage drinking by cutting the case backlog and by strengthening local flexibility,” said Leahy.

http://leahy.senate.gov/press/200005/000524.html

Just some more info about it.

[ET Awful]

52. For a first time offense?

Most likely not.

There's no need to face a judge. The attorney can appear on behalf of his client (especially if a deal has already been reached with the DA). Requires no undue influence, simply a decent defense attorney.

[VermontDem2004]

39. He went through a Court's Diversion Program

which is something the World Net Daily, a conservative news site forgot to mention.

BURLINGTON, Vt. -- The 17-year-old son of Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean agreed yesterday to participate in a court diversion program for his role in the theft of beer and champagne from a country club. Paul Dean appeared at Vermont District Court with his father and mother, Dr. Judith Steinberg Dean, and met with a court official.

''I think this is a good outcome for Paul and for his friends, and that's what the program is designed for,'' Howard Dean, Vermont's former governor, said.

The program allows first-time and low-risk offenders to resolve their charges without appearing before a judge. In a few weeks, the younger Dean is to appear before a community board that will determine his punishment, which could include community service, writing a letter of apology, or making restitution.

Dean was called to court to answer a charge of accessory to burglary. Four of Dean's friends will also participate in the diversion program.

Police spotted Dean walking out of a wooded area near the Burlington Country Club in the early morning hours of June 20. After questioning him, police learned a burglary was in progress and Dean was to have been the getaway driver.

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/218/nation/Court_diversion_program_for_Dean_s_son+.shtml

[VoteClark]

44. What about first time murderers? Adversion program too?

[VermontDem2004]

46. What does low risk offenders mean to you?

[VoteClark]

54. A biased term for White Rich kid

Obviously, if a guys father is running for President of the United States, and still commit a felony,is not low-risk. Ouch, you walked right into that.


:kick:
J4Clark

[VermontDem2004]

57. Combine what he did

and the fact that it was a first time offense makes since to me. It is a low risk crime compared to the thousands or worse offenses out there. I know you want Paul Dean to get the electric chair but what he did was Petty, the only ones that doesn't think what he did was petty have a very negative view towards Dean and it seems to me that you got it.

[mrbill]

51. petty theft and teenage stupidity does not equate with murder.

they should not be treated the same unless you are of the faschist belief system.

[VoteClark]

56. Your definition

"unless you are of the faschist belief system"

Fashist, you mean like when white rich people are treated differently for crimes than Black people?


:kick:
J4Clark

[VermontDem2004]

59. Give me an example of how the Court Diversion Program in Vermont

is racist or treats white rich people differently then black people. I think you are making a much bigger deal then it already is.

[mrbill]

60. the juvenile judicial sysyem texas is cool.

my little redneck county is for the most part color blind.

guns for no reason are taken seriously.

[meatloaf]

61. Dude, you really need to back down. You're making a complete

ass of yourself.

The penalties Dean's son faced are pretty typical for a first time offender who is a minor. I speak from personal experience. I was picked up for shoplifitng when I was 12. I never saw a judge, went to one counseling session, and that was it. I never got into any sort of trouble again and my record was cleared when I turned 18.

You've got a personal axe to grind with Dean and more particularly a few Dean supporters. Every candidate has supporters who act like asses. It doesn't mean the candidate themselves are anymore of an ass than you're demonstrating yourself to be. Hell, by your performance we could all equally assume that Clark was an ass.

I'm not a Dean supporter or a Clark supporter. I'm still evaluating all of the candidates, what they say vs. what they do/have done, and all I know at this point is that no matter who we put up against Bush, I'll vote for them, even that putz Lieberman.

If you want to influence people's opinions stop rising to the baiters, and start sticking to the facts. Most liberals are much more easily swayed by them than hyperbole.

[sendero]

65. I'm really interested...

... in humor from someone who doesn't know the difference between burglary and robbery. LOL!!!!