CSPAN: Mary Landieu testifying about her proposed amendment

[Peregrine]

She's talking about her constitutional amendment to permit "under god" in the pledge, "in god we trust", and public acknowledgement of god in governmnet. Of course quoting Franklin and Madison as well as saying that we acknowledge god in our documents, "Declaration of Independence and the Constitution."

I'm so glad we have Democrats like this, it saves the Republicans time for doing other things.

[BurtWorm]

1. Why not an amendment making it a crime to elide "under God"

from the pledge? A capital crime, while we're at it!

Call us the anti-God party, will they?

[Az]

2. One nation or Under god

We cannot be both.

[tom_paine]

12. Well said

And we are NOT one nation.

United We Stand: Just like in 1858.

[lastliberalintexas]

3. Very nicely put

"I'm so glad we have Democrats like this, it saves the Republicans time for doing other things."


And some people want her to be the VP candidate...

[yardwork]

4. Franklin is probably spinning in his grave.

On second thought, probably not. He must be used by now to having his name attached to ideas he would have found laughable or worse in life.

[rfranklin]

5. I think that on all denominations of US currency it should say...

"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Matthew 19:24

[Az]

7. E Pluribus Unum

This motto holds the very idea of this nation. It is inclusive. It is wise. And it was there first.

[wuushew]

6. I am so glad our politicans are working on these important issues...not!

Now someone will rise to the occassion to say she is just representing the socially conservative South. If this is the type of thing that conservative states get us then I say let the North-South bashing continue.

[Finch]

8. Nothing wrong with this...

...Landrieu is a great Senator and I think this is a good thing to do... but i seem to remember i got embroiled in one heck of an argument about the pledge some months back so I'll stay clear of this thread from here on...

Go get'em Mary! :)

Interesting for many Europeans like say in the UK or Italy this wouldn't be an issue public references to God and faith are common yet European states are fairly secular really... Interesting... anyway the real thing is swearing the oath not "in front of god" per-say but the positive connotations of something greater than the individual an idea of "moral excellence" and both believers and non-believers would share the belief that people should behave in a positive and compassionate way and strive to always act in a "good" way... another point to consider is that 96% of Americans believe in God

[wuushew]

10. No it is a bad idea

The establishment clause of the Constitution is one of the most important parts of the document.

[ElectroPrincess]

18. Here here

Any American is free to believe in 1 God or 20+ to Agnostic and Atheism (no Gods).

But for America's continued freedoms, please keep any tone of religious biases (touting only 1 God is dismissive of the rights of Deists, Agnostics and Atheists) out of our Politics. Period. This is a dangerous path ... Mary L's actions are UN-democratic and reek of shameless sucking-up to her right-wing Catholic and other religious fundamentalist constituents. However, she's the best type of Democratic representive we can hope for in the state of Louisiana for reasons I'll restrain from explaining now. Also, she'll a hellofva lot more "on message" for our party than that old crone Zell Miller.

[GiovanniC]

11. "96% of Americans believe in God"

47% of DUers would like to know which oriface you pulled that statistic from.

And which "God" you're referring to when you make that claim.

[truthspeaker]

15. even if it were true, we 4% are citizens too

You don't get special unconstitutional treatment just because there are more of you.

[GiovanniC]

16. I See the Gallup Poll

I believe you're citing, which was taken in 1996 and was non-specific.

A more recent Harris poll puts that number at around 90%, although it is similarly non-specific.

It also found that a majority of people believed in ghosts, and that more than a quarter of Americans believe in astrology and reincarnation.

[ElectroPrincess]

20. The Majority Rule unilaterally is not what makes America great

That's why we have the judicial branch as, in a way, our moral compass. I'm not certain but I believe most religious Americans are Protestant. If by pure percentages the mass of Americans rule, then our country's official faith should be deemed Protestant.

Our Bill of Rights don't work that way. When you are talking about freedom of religion, you're not talking, "To the victor goes the spoils" but fairness to *every* single faith held in esteem within America. No way I support this ... it will give the right wing even more fired-up and self-righteous in their quest to breech the rights of Muslim Americans. Why, because the radical right wing religious fundamentalist will always interpret any reference to God as referring to their angry and vengeful vision of their deity.

[Finch]

26. But our Judiciary is not independent....

The removal of the crucifix from the Los Angeles County Heraldry? Because it was "unwelcoming", but we let the goddess Issa Stay :eyes: .

http://ktla.trb.com/news/local/ktla-me-seal2jun02-lat,0,4935904.story?coll=ktla-news-1

Do you believe that after forty years the “Desert Cross” should be taken down, because an employee felt “offended” by the war memorial?

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/state/8867634.htm?1c


These Judges are no more impartial than the likes of Roy Moore or Antonin Scalia... their all out to further their own partisan aims. We saw it in Florida, A Dem Judge backed Gore a GOP Judge backed Bush... its troubling, we do have activist judges who do as they please on both sides of the political divide... sad but true...

[Az]

Find me someone compelling you to worship Issa

You mix religion and politics both get muddied. There are dead religions who's icons we can use representationally that do not invoke the conflict of a living religion. The cross is just such a symbol that carries a great deal of baggage that can be seens as devisive in this society.

[Finch]

24. Check this week's Economist....

... I'll try and find out which polling firm....ah here it is...

Harris Polling apparently (Traditionally a GOP leaning firm, but as with Carville firm they do very good polls, I have a friend who is a pollster and a partisan Libertarian and he rates them very highly)...

Here's the Blurb...

"Fully 92 percent of Americans say they believe in God, 85 percent in heaven and 82 percent in miracles, according to the latest Harris poll. Though belief in God has remained at about the same level, belief in the devil has increased slightly over the last few years — from 63 percent in 1997 to 71 percent today."

...92 rather than 96, still pretty solid (within the margin of error :) )... At the same time the Economist reports that the Secular people are very reliably Democratic more so than even African-Americans on all issues, Abortion, Gun Control, Spending etc... However the embrace a Secularist agenda (the economist warns) would make the GOP the majority party by default where the battle really is, is with moderate Catholic and evangelical Christians those for whom religion is a private matter.

Out of Interest, Do you support the removal of the crucifix from the Los Angeles County Heraldry? Because it was "unwelcoming", but we let the goddess Issa Stay :eyes: .

For the Vast majority of people the term "god" has real and direct meaning for a minority it does not have literal meaning but there are connotations which everyone associates with the idea of an "Infinitely good and Powerful creator" that you do not have to be a "believer" to believe to be good and positive.

[Az]

30. 8%...ok

Pick 4 states to get rid of. That would be about 8%. No problem right?

Rip 4 stars off the flag. We don't need those stars.

Better chuck that 1st ammendment. It seems to support the notion that we have to keep religion out of the government. You know. Letting people think for themself and all that. Messy business if you ask me.

[atreides1]

40. The Problem

As with most polls the pollster don't really ask the questions of all
of the population, just a small section of it.

So what we have is that %92 of those asked believe in God. This percentage is out of how many people polled?

By the way no one can reply on what I beleive in.

As for the cross being removed from the LA County Heraldry, no I do not agree that it should be removed,and I don't even live in California. Then again I didn't think that the cross at Kolekole Pass
where the first wave of Japanese fighters came through to attack Pearl Harbor should be removed either.

Anything like heraldry and a monument should not be removed, provided it has been in place for at least 60 years.

And no once again the US Constitution should be bastardized for political gain, whether it is being done by Bush or Landrieu. And by the way I've read the Constitution, it only states a divine being, this could apply to any divine being.

Besides take a look at the Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11, it's the one official US document that states specifically that the United States is not a CHRISTIAN NATION. Can you name one official US document that says otherwise?????

If you can please provide the links to it.

[bread_and_roses]

43. No, "everyone" does not associate "God"

"with the idea of an "Infinitely good and Powerful creator" that you do not have to be a "believer" to believe to be good and positive." I personally believe that the belief in an "Infinitely good and Powerful creator" is a remanant of our irrational primitive selves. But I don't try to impose MY belief on anyone else, or ask it to be promulgated in schools, courthouses, and sporting events. Nor do I expect the tax $ of others to be used to promote my belief.

The Constitution was written to prevent the tyrany of majority rule over basic human rights. It is a brilliant document in that regard. These politicians who seek to undermine it for momentary political gain are unamerican in the most basic sense.

[GiovanniC]

45. What This Tells Me

Is that 8% of the population is atheist/agnostic, while the rest of the population believes in some sort of higher power or "god". If the poll had asked if people believed in the Christian God, I believe that percentage would be quite a bit lower.

And say what you like, but whenever you see the words "under God" or "God bless America" or "In God we trust", I don't think anyone says to themselves, "They must be talking about the Muslim God." It becomes even more blatant when people say that they want the Bible taught in classrooms and prayer in schools. Not very many people hear someone talking about how there should be prayer in schools and thinks that they're talking about all the kids getting on little mats and praying in the direction of Mecca.

And of course, to hell with the Hindu kids, the Buddhist kids, even the Jewish kids.

I was raised Baptist, believe it or not, and I currently attend the Church of the Nazarene, but I do not want religion forced on people by the government (or anyone, really). It weakens both government and religion.

[Az]

13. Nothing wrong with this?

So there would also in your opinion be nothing wrong with instituting a pledge which included the phrase "under no gods"?

The bit about One Nation that precedes the Under God bit is made a lie if you insist on keeping the Under God bit. Or are you telling me that nonbelievers have no place in this nation?

[truthspeaker]

14. God != something greater than the individual an idea of "moral excellence"

God is a specific diety worshipped by certain religions. It is not an abstract concept of morality or justice, indeed it does not necessarily have anything to do with morality or justice.

I'll keep our government out of your church/synagogue/mosque if you keep your church/synagogue/mosque out of our government. Deal?

[JanMichael]

42. Leave it to a DU'er (with a DLC icon) to make such an ignorant statement.

96%? <snort>

[nickinSTL]

9. Landrieu

I didn't know much about Landrieu, so had to particular opinion when people raised her as a possible VP.

With this proposed amendment, she proves she is unfit for that post. Or any in MY government.

If this amendment were to pass, which I doubt it will, I'm out of here. I'm not going to live in a theocracy. Period.

[eileen from OH]

17. I thought she got off the Pandering Bus

after she was targeted by the GOP in 2002 even though she campaigned on the "I Supported Bush The Mostest" platform.

Honestly, a CONSTITUTIONAL amendment? What the hell - did I miss the part where it was written in pencil?

eileen from OH

[Jacobin]

21. I'm part of her constituency. Here's my email to her:

Dear Senator Landrieu:
I have been a solid supporter of yours over the years. I worked to sway voters away from voting for your opponent, Ms Terrell, in the last election and am very glad that you were able to withstand the pressure put on voters by the White House to unseat you. The fact that you stood up to President Bush on several occassions, I believe, helped your standing. I know it made me a stronger supporter.

However, I am troubled by the amendment you are supporting (co-authoring?) to put God in the pledge of allegiance. As an amateur student of American history, I remember reading about the immense trouble that was caused by those who came to these shores from England where there was an established state religion that citizens there had to pay taxes to support. Fealty to religion, and a particular one, was required under penalty of state sanction. Our founding fathers were extremely aware of the minefields which could result from mixing church and state and went to great lengths to keep them separate. The mischief that churches can cause when they gain too much control over governments(even if well-intended) is too well documented to have to repeat here. Much of the misery and suffering and many of the wars that humanity has had to endure come from churches meddling in and attempting to control the government. The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition and the fundamentalist Islamic movement today come to mind.

In the spirit of our Founding Fathers, I beg of you to consider, especially in light of what appears to be this emerging Holy War with Islam we are falling into, that what is needed now in advanced and civilized government is NOT further erosion of the wall between church and state, but a firm and distinct line. Thomas Jefferson would be rolling in his grave if he saw this amendment, and I respectfully suggest that you know it. We need to govern ourselves on the basis of reason and not cries of Holy Wars, good or evil and other throwbacks to days thankfully gone by.

The Pledge of Allegiance was written in the 1890's by a socialist minister who wanted to promote the feeling of Americans that they were part of a country and not just citizens of their respective states. "Under God" was not in the original version. It was added at the behest of Eisenhauer.

The judges of the 9th Circuit, two of them Nixon appointees have stated that it is unconstitutional. It is wrong of congress to pander to the religious right to overturn that decision. Your constituency is NOT that of the rabid right. They did not elect you.

When the state becomes INVOLVED in religion and religious activities it does NOT strengthen religion. It weakens it, as inevitably, as power corrupts, one religion will gain strength over another and we are back to the reason why many of our forebears left England.

I respectfully request that you reconsider this position you are taking. It can do no good whatsoever, and the mischief it may cause has the potential to be permanent and harmful to the union our Founding Fathers so carefully crafted.

Respectfully,

[Jacobin]

19. Thanks for letting me know. She's my dingbat

Sometimes she does some okay things in the senate, but she is waaaay out of line on this bullshit.

The LAST thing we need is more blurring of the church/state lines.

[damnraddem]

22. How about returning to traditional values.

Such as those expressed by Bellamy: "I pledge allegiance to the flag, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, with liberty and justice for all." No need for 'under' anything, and no need to say which country's flag. Just good old post-Civil-War republican (small r) sentiment.

[Democracy Died 2004]

23. Has anyone here actually ever read

The Constitution or Bill of Rights? Declaration of Independence? If you do a text search the word god appears once and the word Lord a couple times. This is another illusion played by the Grand Hypocrites. They claim this nation was based on our founding fathers and the strong religious beliefs they had.. Horse shit.. They were a Bunch of scoundrels for the most part that liked to fornicate and raise hell<OK not all them but some these guys were pretty rowdy>

Don't let another right wing lye have wings.

[Finch]

27. True they where not perfect...

...but Jefferson (despite his infidelities with his slaves), Franklin, Adams and Washington where great men with real vision and this country was based upon the thinking of the enlightenment which its self was based on Judeo-Christian values (Check Immanuel Kant if you like, or even Fredric Hagel, Hume is weak so don't try him or go a bit latter and check out Kierkegaard all where heavily influenced by Judaeo-Christian principles) and these principles are shared by most people in their attitudes to the individual’s relationship to society and what is expectable or not even if that person believes in god or not...

[starroute]

36. Enlightenment values were mainly classical and hermetic

They were not Judeo-Christian to any visible degree. Even when the Founding Fathers referred to "God," they were thinking far more of a neo-Platonic First Cause than of the deity of the Bible. Hauling in a bunch of German Idealists -- who were not "Enlightenment" figures in any meaningful sense -- is just muddying the waters.

[Az]

38. Um the times were steeped in breaking with the church

Exploration of new ideas and new ways of thinking. Sure the church still had a strong hold on the people but they were beginning to break free of this. Science and reason were the champions of the time. Faith was seen as a thing of bumpkins and backwaters.

Simply ask yourself this. What was the very first thing mentioned in the very first ammendment setting down the nature of our rights. The first thing in the first ammendment might have some meaning to those creating the rules.

[Jacobin]

31. What does being randy and rowdy have to do with it?

When did this country start putting down political leaders because of their sex lives? Oh, that's right. When Clinton was elected.

Good grief, wtf is going on here?

So, you would replace Ben Franklin with who? Cotton Mather?

This country is in serious serious serious trouble. And its from the fundamnetalists more than the terrorists.

[immoderate]

25. I find the idea of pledging allegiance...

...to a flag altogether creepy.

--IMM

[AudreyT]

28. excuse me while I re-register my noting card

thinking about registering as something cool like "Jedi" or "Punk" what do you think?

[jus_the_facts]

29. she WILL NOT GET MY VOTE AGAIN...here's what JEFFERSON thought..........

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

FUCK YOU MARY LANDRIEU...ONCE AND FOR ALL! :grr: :puke:

[lastliberalintexas]

32. That's because Jefferson wasn't a Christian

As much as a certain DLC poster above would like to make it be so. IIRC, Jefferson was a Deist. Many of the founding fathers weren't really Christian, but such has been ascribed to them due to their writings of "God." It's just assumed by the RWers that they were referring to the Christian God.

[jus_the_facts]

34. Believe me...I know this all too well from m'own family's ignorance...

:puke:

[TexasSissy]

33. Yeah, she's a pip, alright.

[rooboy]

35. Gutless fundamentalist Christians...

either propose "One Nation under Jesus" or piss off. They don't have the guts to say "Jesus"...

[JanMichael]

37. I'm so happy we're trending to a Theocracy!

God bless Mary! God bless US!

[Eloriel]

39. Demagoguery

Must be an election year for her. What a load of crap.

[starroute]

41. The Constitution has been all that lets me identify as an American

During the dark days of the Sixties, when opponents of the government were often accused of being un-American, I often wondered on what grounds I kept insisting on calling myself an American. If I didn't like the government, didn't accept its policies, and didn't agree with the majority of my fellow-citizens, why did I think I had any claim on the name?

What I always fell back on was the Constitution. There was nothing in the Constitution I could not accept and agree with and defend if it was threatened. It was the Constitution, and not the laws or the law-makers or the popular mood of the moment, that became my definition of America.

If an amendment like this one goes through, I will no longer be able to accept the Constitution or acknowledge that it has any moral authority over me. Instead, I will fall back on Jefferson's credo ("I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the minds of man.") and oppose it as fervently as I would oppose any other institution that diminishes our common humanity.

[in_cog_ni_to]

44. Unbelievable.

Holy shit! Isn't bad enough we have to fight the repukes on shit like this? Now we have Dems we have to fight. Daaaaaaaaaaaamn!